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See mintmobile.com. This is Jane Pauley. He was raised by famous parents, the comedy duo of Jerry Stiller and Ann Mira. Sunday mornings Jim Axelrod sat down with Ben Stiller, who's made a new documentary about his mom and dad. Feels like a good place to start any discussion about this work is to talk about intention.
Right. The mission. of what you were trying to accomplish here. What was it? Um I think it evolved over the course of making the movie.
I think the first thing was. I want to capture My dad passed away. May of 2020. And That was, of course. course sad.
And How do you deal with that? you know, as a as losing a parent, but it's kind of it happened. He had been declining for a while and Um I knew Yeah. after that happened that we were going to sell the apartment because they left it to my sister to sell the apartment. And I wanted to capture the apartment.
On film before it was cleaned out or sold or staged or anything. Just because it was 55 years of memories in that place, and it was weird to think about not. ever being able to go back there. And I also knew this was, you know, height of COVID. that I wanted to do something for my dad, but we couldn't do a memorial service.
And Sort of in my head, I just thought, okay, well, I'll just, you know, there should be a movie about them on some level. There should be something about my folks. And Maybe I can start making that. But I didn't know what it would be. how it would play out.
You know, I thought, okay, just talking about their relationship and their career. Didn't understand how deep it was going to go.
Well, no. I mean, I didn't know where it was going to go. Other than I thought, okay, I can do. you know, something about their lives and their careers. But as I started to work on it, I realized kind of, okay, I want people to Watch this movie?
How do you get people to? To watch a movie, people don't know about my parents' career. How do I get them to watch this movie? How can I Make something that you know, that people will be drawn into and As it evolved, I realized like the the personal stuff was more more what the movie needed to be about.
So as you were making choices as as this project began to to deepen. At some point you have to ask yourself a question in terms of your own But The lines you're going to draw for yourself, it's a. Very personal examination. in a very public way. Yeah, and I was a very aware of not wanting to make it about me.
In the beginning, because I didn't want it to be, I was just like, sort of like, I don't want this to be a vanity project, whatever that means. But it's about actors.
So, like, actors are, you know, that's what we are. You know, it's impossible not to be aware of all that stuff. But I was like maybe pushing myself away from it because I thought, okay, this is going to be about them, not me. And Of course, as it as the process went on, I realized, well, If I'm telling the story, I have to somehow be subjective in this. I can't Just be like, I'm doing some sort of like, you know, documentary that somebody else would make about their lives because it was my perspective.
But I kept on pushing from I I didn't want to to really go into my own stuff. And then that happened sort of later as I started to show it to more people. I've showed it to small groups of people. and get feedback on it. And at one point, a friend of mine, a director friend of mine, said, you know, I really like the movie and I'm engaged and I'm fascinated by their story.
but I'm seeing the back of your head a lot. And I was like, okay. And he's like, I kind of want to see. And I said, well, I don't know. I don't want you know, I don't want to insert.
He said, well, you're telling the story. You know, what how did they affect you? And... That's kind of what opened it up a little bit. And was that journey for you to make yourself?
Yeah, then it changed everything because it was like, okay, I'm gonna have to. You know. Talk about my own feelings, and how much do I talk about my real feelings, and how much do I? open up and all that stuff. Yeah, thinking down the line to a point like now where it's going to be seen by people out in the world.
It's hard to imagine that because it's stuff that I don't really ever talk about. Do you feel you accomplished, like, is it fully processed now in your head, the meaning of the apartment? I mean, the apartment, it's like, I don't know, as you get older, I feel like these relics from the past, the places, objects, things, they become very valuable. Because they sort of you know there's this this connection right to your child. childhood that for me as I get older I feel more and more interested in.
And that apartment was our whole world.
So it's weird to even think about not being. I mean, I'm sure I could talk to the people who bought it and go and visit them sometime. I would hope I could. It's also kind of strange to do that too. It's like Do you really want to go back?
back into that world.
So Yeah, so I think the apartment it felt to me like that was always the framework of the movie. Would be Amy and I having to figure out how to sell it and how to get, and the first thing you do is clean it out and go through all the stuff. And that's where we discovered how much stuff my dad really saved.
So just so I understand. What came first? The idea to do the dock? or the selling of the apartment.
Well I knew that My parents had left the apartment to my sister. And The thought was that she would sell it for and Um So I knew that. When my dad passed away, and I knew I wanted to film the apartment, and I think it kind of happened simultaneously where I was like, all right, let's start filming here before we can't film here anymore. Early on. You say in in the film when my dad died.
My mom had been gone about five years. My career had been going on along, but things weren't great in my personal life. I felt out of balance and unhappy, disconnected from my family, from my kids, and just a little bit. Lost. Um I started thinking about my parents and all the stress and tension I remember.
all the pressure when they were working together and how they stayed together through it. I think I wanted to understand how they did it. Simple as that for a mission statement, I wanted to understand how to do it. How my folks navigated life because I'm having some challenges with walking that path. Yeah, it's that thing where, you know, when you're younger, you think, Okay, I'm gonna.
do everything better. I'm gonna you know, I'm not gonna make that mistake. I'm not going to make that mistake. I found myself at a place in my life where things weren't really In sync. And I And then my dad died and it was like, okay, I'm going to look at this.
Yeah. who I've had so many feelings about my whole life. And judgments on as a son, too. Like, oh, you should do this or you shouldn't have done that. But yet He had a 62-year marriage.
And he made so many people laugh and found this great success at the end of his career. and all these things and and and loved my mother and stayed together with her. And yeah, it was hard to not see that in the context of what I was kind of going through in my life and feeling like I I I maybe like in some way I needed to kind of open up to them and Really? Yeah, try to process also just the pro the grief of losing, losing, having both of them be gone too. Were you able to posthumously Maybe cut him a break.
Oh no no. I think my relationships to my dad evolved. over the years so that even when he was when he was older We we had a great relationship when he was older. And um My big thing with my dad was always, I just wanted him to treat me like an equal, like, you know, like his buddy or like his compatriot. Uh you know, and he always saw me as his son.
who he loved. and was protective of But incredibly like the biggest cheerleader in the world, but always as his son, that and he would always give me advice, and the advice was always right. And it drove me crazy, because he always... You know, whatever it was, he'd say, like, I don't know, like, I'd say, like, hey, there's this guy we might do this. Our production company might do this deal with this guy.
So, we'll make sure that guy's on the up and up. I'm like, dad. I have a production company. I know what I'm doing, okay? I'm making movies.
Turns out the guy was a total fraud. Like, he always nailed it. And of course. And so as, you know, and as he got older, I just... you know of course appreciated him more and could be a little more settled in my own Life 2.
But that's the part of anybody's journey, isn't it? No son understands in real time Actually, he understands what he's talking about. You have to go through this process of, like, yeah, dad, sure. And then, oh my God. God, he was dead on right.
Right, and it's also what happens with the dad in the family. Like, the dad always becomes like, kind of, yeah, it's your dad. He does this, he does that. But he was, you know, he was... The other thing was he was just such an incredibly generous person.
He really had this spirit about him. And to this day, almost every day, someone will come up and tell me something about my dad or how much they love my dad's work or some personal thing that happened with my dad and them that he did something very kind for them. The Christopher Walken. Byte um where Your dad was a saint. Yeah.
Mom scared me a little bit. Yeah. But your dad was the same. Yeah. No, Chris loved my dad and You know, there's the picture in the dock of them, and you see that he's got his arm around him.
And that was a very special experience at play Hurly Burley for my dad and the camaraderie between him and Chris Walken and William Hurd and Harvey Keitel. And these were people that my dad stayed friends with for the rest of his life. We'll have more from our Sunday morning extended interview. after this break. We all love a legendary comeback, and Degree Original Cool Rush is back and better than ever.
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So You know, you're mentioning sort of the multi-purposes or intentions with this movie, but obviously. Portraying who your folks were and examining who your folks were, obviously, is such an important part of this. And a couple times. You have a version of the question. Where does the act end?
end and the marriage begin. Do you have more clarity on that now, having examined it in this way? I I think It was all interconnected, honestly. for a very long time with my folks and They were in the um the pressure cooker of having to Figure out how to have a career and a family at a time in show business where. You could do variety shows and game shows and nightclubs.
And what they did as a comedy team broke out on Ed Sullivan, and that became their bread and butter. But there was incredible pressure that because they had to write all the material. My mom really didn't love doing it as much as my dad. Um But all of the material was mined from really my dad kind of saying like, hey, we could talk about this, or I'm Jewish, you're Irish Catholic, let's do something about that. And it was all and they were working together all the time.
So I think when they got older and as that changed, when that you know, Stiller and Mirror wasn't as in demand anymore because show business was changing too. Uh they had to figure out their own you know their own way but I think it took pressure off of them. Having to work together. coupled them both professionally. Yeah, well and the pressure of having to be funny together and become a persona together that they would go on a talk show and make people laugh and just the pressure to be funny.
You know, it'd be funny when you go on the talk show. And they would, I see that in the clips in the movie, you know, where you see them talking about very personal stuff. I'm wondering only because I watched it a bunch of times and couldn't understand, couldn't figure it out.
So let me just ask you: when you include the clip. of their singing from Fiddler. Do you love me? Yeah, yeah. It's very poignant.
They get to the end. And They finished the song. And your mom, they kiss now. And your mom mouths I love. Love you.
Yeah. Was that part of the act? And she loved him. She definitely loved him. throwing that in at that moment, it was so intimate and touching and lovely.
And yet I was just wondering, because you had set up the- For Artifice, was that for? Was that for the audience, or was she telling your dad she loved him? I think she loved him. I know she loved it.
Now whether or not in that moment it was, you know. to kind of put a button on that? I don't think so. Like my mom wasn't really like that. She was kind of genuine.
To a fault, you know? If she didn't like somebody, she would tell them.
So that's a lovely. choice you're making to let the viewers know, no, there was whatever other. Michigas was going on. They loved each other. Yeah.
I felt it was really important in the movie. to have There's so much footage and material and things to show of the good and the bad, and the tension, and the happy times. I felt it was really important to try to have a balance in the film when it was finally done. That's right. relate to the audience what the reality was.
of their Relationship, which was, I think. grounded in love. And they went through a lot, you know, to stay together. But, you know, those, I think about. the last years of their lives, and how they were there for each other.
You know, and how close they were. And how much my dad missed my mom. when she was gone. 62 years, I mean... Good luck explaining anybody's marriage, and there's such nuance, right, and such subtlety, and If the takeaway can be, yeah, no, at the end of the day, they loved each other.
It's a nice nice to have in your asset column. Yeah, and they they I think my I give my mom credit for that because she was always looking inward. She was always trying. To figure out, you know. how to be more She says to him at one point, you know, listen, at the end of your life.
If you can't authentically be happy, separate and apart from all of this. Chasing the red light thing. Right. Then then you failed. Right.
And I think she was willing to look at her own issues, you know, whether it was the drinking or her relationship with my dad, and she stopped, you know, and she changed and she. made a concerted effort to value My dad. Because I think she felt over the years there was a lot of tension there. Where she, I don't think she ever, was ever not about. My dad.
It was about her. um resenting that the Uh that she had to do she had to go up there and do that. Act. Because she was so good at it. And I feel like she was the anchor of the act, but it wasn't really her true.
It wasn't her true happiness. And so she did it for a lot of years, understanding why she had to do it. But inside, I think there was a resentment of that. And as the film tells us all If she was, as Christopher Watkins said, off. She was also someone who lost her mom to suicide.
And therefore we all understand, oh. I get it, yeah. She, but she had this tough exterior. that she would it was a defense It was like a shield to see if somebody You know, what was this new person going to be like with her? Because I think she had to figure that out at a very young age, as an only child who lost her mom.
Um And then once you got through that, The most generous, loving. She loved nothing more than just being on a set, working, not as a. star or anything. She did all my children for a few years and She used to love it. She loved to hang out.
She loved hanging out with You know, she worked with Whoopi Goldberg.
So they're still, like, these people like were so, she just loved. Kind of You know, being in that, and you just had to kind of get through that little sort of. See, but any child. on the journey of understanding their parents. And if they're lucky enough to get to a place where they can hold whatever They're still working through, but also understand they were good people trying to do their best.
Eh It just to hear you talk about her like this now, maybe this wasn't something you could have said 20 or 30 years ago. to about your mom, about your dad. I definitely couldn't have because I was in my own stuff. I was wrapped up in, I had my own issues too. And I also think most kids can't do that until you get older.
And so I don't expect that. Same thing with my kids. It's like someday they'll have kids and maybe they'll see, have a slightly different perspective. But you just can't ask somebody to do that unless they've experienced it. And um What I am really grateful for is that By the end of their lives, we had really good relationship with each other.
What work can you ask for? Yeah. And I and then yeah. Mm-hmm. You know, you miss your parents.
It's weird making this movie because. I also do wonder like what would they, it's weird they're not here for it. What would they think? Yeah. But what's the answer to that?
Um well I thought I thought about this a lot as I you know Finishing the movie, like really trying to first of all understand how I can feel okay about putting this out there. without their approval. Um And that was a big part of why I felt the story had to kind of Turn back towards me because I didn't want to be some sort of pretend to be some sort of objective. uh judge of their relationship. When I had so many issues in my own relationships and my stuff.
So I felt like, okay, if I'm going to put this stuff out here about them, I need to be. Honest about who's telling this and what my shortcomings are, too, hopefully, because. It all affected me, too. But it was just, so that was part of growing up with them. But then when I, you know, that's why I felt like, oh, I got to talk to my kids too.
because my kids are going to have a perspective on me. I want to get to that in a second, but first I got to ask you about the Data Guard boxes and the audio tapes. That was box after box after box. I know it must have provided this enormous sort of resource for you as a filmmaker, but. What was it like growing up with every word being recorded?
Well, we weren't that aware of it. He was secretly taping a lot of stuff. I think he had, I mean, I remember my dad had this reel-to-reel tape recorder that they would rehearse their sketches on and they would improvise on. And then he had like a little, like a small one. like a mini cassette.
And sometimes you just keep it on, like when you, for the kids, you know how you record your kids when they're little? Sure. But I had no idea that there were these sort of arguments and discussions that he had recorded. And so hearing that stuff was pretty amazing to me. Did you listen to All of the tapes?
Did you hear stuff you had never heard before? All of it I'd never heard before. Yeah. I mean, almost all of it I'd never heard before. And It's just, it takes you back to hear an audio recording, it just takes you back to that moment in time, hearing the sound of our phone ringing in the background.
I remember. You know that it's almost a sense memory of like going back I'm in the The big living room at our house, and I can just see what's going on there, and also just the cadence of how they're interacting and talking, and then. the phone rings and then they go back to it and it brought me back to being a kid in the house when they were working together. Did your mom Need your dad in the way your dad needed your mom. I think so, 'cause I don't think she would have stayed.
If she didn't. Um I think she loved him and she Cared about him, but he also drove her crazy sometimes. They were just, I say in the movie, they were very different people. They had different like like my dad loved jazz, loved to go hear jazz. My mom hated it, she could not deal with it.
So, you know, things like that that would just sort of like when they get into a fight, he would kinda go downtown to the village Vanguard and listen to jazz and just to like, you know, blow off some steam. I'm wondering if you I'm processing all of this and and You know, my kids always say, because My wife and I are from very different backgrounds, and they're always like, well, we're weirdos because we're not supposed to be together. Because like we shouldn't exist because you and mom should have never gotten together. Were you and Amy Were you aware that we have these very different People. who are, you know, that it's not like Two Jews from Long Island or two Catholics from the United States.
Were you aware of that this was a melding of people from two very different backgrounds? I think we were aware of it on a superficial level because it was talked about all the time in their act, and we just, so, like, before we even understood. What it was. It was sort of, we, my sister and I memorized their act. We knew their, you know, they would do summer stock plays in like Dayton, Ohio, and then they would bring us up on stage after, and we would like do lines from, you know, the player from their act.
So it was just part of their thing. Talking about the act and their lives crossing over. It was never anything where I thought, oh, this is actually was challenging for them at this time. Or that was something that people didn't do. Because again, it's from such a different time.
The fact there's a moment where Johnny Carson in the movie says, like, he's Jewish and she's Irish, for real. For real. And it's like, whoa. Um So, you know, for us, but for us, we never thought about it. It was a very progressive.
Liberal, you know, upper west side, 1970s environment, and they were always. on the forefront in terms of you know standing up for For people's rights and going to protests and all that stuff.
So it was sort of like we were in this bubble. We were in a bubble there, for sure. It was so important, I think, for people Who? Who weren't raised by folks who were in the glare of the light? I think it's something everyone can relate to.
This notion you're raising of It's always important. to talk about it, to examine it, to air it out. You are airing it out though in a way Where A gazillion people are gonna see it.
Well, that's yeah, that that's the other part of this whole thing was. when the m when I I got to the point in the movie where I felt like making the movie in in making the movie when it got to the point of feeling like, oh, we had a structure. For the movie that people would watch, because getting back to the sort of most important thing for me is I wanted people to be able to Be drawn to this in some way, other than just saying, here's a show business history. It that became about having to be honest and personal. But I also had to dissociate myself from the moment when it would go out.
into the world.
So is that just starting to Well then I had to step over you now?
Well, I had to do, I started to think about it as we finished the movie. I was like, okay, am I going to be okay with this stuff being out in the world? And those were the discussions with Christine and my kids. And really saying, hey, this is this, showing them the movie, talking to them about the movie. How do you feel about us putting this out there?
It is something I just haven't really done before. And Everybody in the family was like, we feel like this is okay. because you're telling the story that Ultimately, it's in service of the story. And Hopefully, people will be able to identify with it on some level. When people make films, I assume there's always a component.
of I want to reach people, I want to touch people, there's something I want to explore. Were you thinking at all. about the utility or the value. For folks, you know who aren't whose parents weren't famous about how to examine And Untie knots. as a kid, where you think when you were making these choices.
Yes, when when I I saw what the movie had evolved to. And starting to show it to small groups of people, you know, trusted friends and people, and seeing how they responded and talked about how it made them think about their own families. That was really the reason why I thought, okay, this is worth doing this. Was your dad um among the many things that are so fascinating about your father's life You seem to portray, you know, he was sort of always chasing that external validation of The red light junkie, right? Yeah.
And I do and I do too, you know, like... I feel like I inherited a lot of that. And it's not just, you know, he's not the only person who's ever felt that, but I have a lot of that in me too, for sure. What have you learned about that over the years? I don't want my happiness to be based on somebody else's.
Opinion. because I have no control over it and I want to be happy. Did your dad When he f you know, he'd been chasing it, chasing it, chasing it. When he hit it again later in life at 65 as Frank Costanza. But by the way, he didn't chase like the way he chased it was He wasn't like kind of, I gotta do this or this.
He was, he just had an internal feeling of, you know. Of, like, what he had to offer, and wanting, you know, I think it's the little kid who was, you know, in the depression watching Eddie Cantor in the movie theater. He wanted to be that. But when it wasn't happening for him, He would Go inward, and he would write, and he would write stories about his childhood, and he would explore. He was exploring his creative process always, as opposed to just like, hey, can I get on this show or that?
It wasn't that. And then he was, and then this opportunity came to him. Did the success he had with that opportunity? Could you see? that it just sort of left him in some different s sense of satisfaction than other success had.
He loved it. He loved it. He loved, like any actor, loves working, loved to be in something successful where people, he loved. connecting with people. probably for him uh as great as anything I think.
And now there's a whole bunch of Teenagers in 20-somethings walking around saying, You want a piece of me? Because that clip has to be on every 20 minutes in some social media thing. It's great. That clip is so great because you see how much the other actors in that scene love him, you know? And that was the experience of working with him: people loved him.
Right. So to to wrap this up. Um Where are you?
Now in your relationship. to your folks. I don't know. All this work and you don't know.
Well, I mean It's still there's still Yeah. They they They're still not here. And I still miss them as we all miss our parents when they're gone. And I feel I'm glad that I could do something that in some way, you know, was acknowledging them because I always felt like they could have used a little more acknowledgement for what they did. Not to get wrapped up in what other people think, but that was something that I always felt.
So I'm glad that this exists in that way. Yeah. People will have this to look at and know what they did, and know who they were as people, or get a sense of it. And so I'm really grateful for that. In terms of my own relationship with them, you know, just...
It's still at the end of the day You know, you miss them, they're gone. I feel closer to them, honestly, since they're Con? Because You know that thing when when someone's not here, you're able to appreciate All of the incredibly great stuff. and you see how the other stuff kind of falls away. Totally understand that.
that there is just a I mean And it's the single biggest cliche, but time has a way of rounding The sharp edges. Yeah. Does it matter to you at all? how this film is received. It's a good question.
That's a really good question because that's another thing I've thought about. deal with that when it's so personal. Um Yeah, sure. You know, like my ego. I hope people like it and think it's a good movie.
I feel like I ho I I really do hope that it connects with people. And on whatever level, and that's that's the thing that's most important to me in terms of like. Criticism and all those things, it's really. almost impossible to think about it that way. And I was talking to Christine about it the other day and She said, Well, who did you make the movie for?
I said, Well, I made it for me and for us. And she's like, Well, that's that's it. J just one last one. As we're sitting here talking, this is all sort of settling on me in terms of things. Are you the process of this of making this film.
Has it left you in a place where you think Not only am I good, with the memories. But I don't think there's going to be a whole lot of change for the rest of my life in terms of how I think about my parents. Like, was this some sort of... I hope not. I I hope not.
Because I think our We change, we keep on evolving, is what we're talking about.
So, I hope in 10 years or 15 years. My perspective will be different or whatever it is. I don't want it to be the end of the conversation with my parents. That was the sad thing for me about finishing the movie. It was like, oh, now I don't have an excuse.
To kind of just be connecting with them here. I can do it and sit at my computer and look at, which I will. But But this was an intense reconnection. when it sounds like you needed it. The most.
Yeah, and I figured out how to do it in a way that I kind of like, for me, it was. What my mom probably would have said, like, yeah, go make a movie about it if you want to figure out how to process your feelings. Awesome. Yeah. Awesome.
Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Great talking to you. I'm Jane Pauley. Thank you for listening.
And for more of our extended interviews, follow and listen to Sunday morning on the free Odyssey app. or wherever you get your podcasts. Streaming October 26th on Paramount Plus, it's the epic return of Mayor of Kingstown. Warden, you know who I am. Starring Academy Award nominee Jeremy Renner.
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