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Carolina Journal Radio No. 880: Coronavirus pandemic closes N.C. schools

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
March 30, 2020 8:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 880: Coronavirus pandemic closes N.C. schools

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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March 30, 2020 8:00 am

COVID-19 prompted statewide public school closings. Those closings are bound to cause disruptions for teachers, students, parents, and others as the academic year resumes. Terry Stoops, John Locke Foundation vice president for research and director of education studies, assesses the challenge schools will face returning to a normal schedule. He addresses the likelihood that students will get access to all the material they would have encountered without the interruption in classes. If you follow the U.S. Supreme Court and constitutional law, you’ve likely heard the term “originalism.” Until recently, it’s been hard to find a book-length introduction to the concept. Ilan Wurman, visiting assistant professor at Arizona State University’s law school, attempts to fill that gap with the book A Debt Against The Living. Wurman explains why he wrote an introduction to originalism. He also shares its key themes. Debates about higher education and the future of the American economy often focus on the value of having more students seeking four-year degrees. Critics argue that other options might prove more valuable to many Americans. During a recent trip to Raleigh, U.S. Labor Secretary Eugene Scalia highlighted the importance of apprenticeships. He announced a grant to N.C. State University to boost apprenticeships in the field of artificial intelligence. The coronavirus pandemic is certain to have an impact on the American economy. It’s unclear whether that impact will extend into the long term. Michael Walden, professor of economics at N.C. State University, offered an early assessment during an online-only presentation for the John Locke Foundation. In addition to the short-term impact, Walden says the pandemic is likely to prompt many businesses to rethink issues related to supply chains and other key pieces of their operations. The COVID-19 coronavirus pandemic has thrown off most schedules and plans for 2020. That includes important national and state elections. Rick Henderson, Carolina Journal editor-in-chief, assesses how disruption caused by the coronavirus could impact this year’s races. He ponders which candidates stand to benefit and which ones will face an uphill battle because of changes in campaign plans.


From chair to current attack and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome Carolina Journal radio why Muskoka during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state. If you follow the US Supreme Court in constitutional law, you've likely heard of originalist will chapter the author of a new book designed to explain the concept.

The American economy could benefit from more people taking apprenticeships.

That's the thinking behind a new grant for NC State University you learn about the COBIT 19 coronavirus is likely to have a lingering economic impact top economist from NC State offices early assessment of key issues.

The coronavirus is prompted political parties and candidates to throw out their plans will explore the pandemics potential impact on election 2020. And speaking of COBIT. 19.

It's also affecting lives in other ways. Donna Martinez addresses one of them in the Carolina Journal headline the coronavirus pandemic is wreaking havoc on life as we know it. In response, John Locke foundation researchers have produced a series of policy briefs that contain specific recommendations for North Carolina policymakers, all with an eye toward quickly and prudently securing the health and safety of every North Carolinian as well as the vitality of our economy. Dr. Terry stoops is the vice president for research. Also, the director of education studies at the John Locke foundation, he joined is now with a look at some of those policy recommendations Terry, welcome back to the show. Thank you. It's a scary time in a lot of different ways. We have a public health crisis that that has hit our country and here in North Carolina we are reacting in the John Locke foundation is leading tell us about the goals of this series of recommendations. While the goal is to provide a list of policy recommendations and in context that the state could use to respond to this this pandemic in a way that ensures that we get through it's in the best possible manner and this is looking at five different areas using our in-house policy expertise to look at some of the different areas where state policy can intervene and make it easier for North Carolinians to receive healthcare for North Carolina's children to be educated for us to be able to use the state budget in ways that can help regular North Carolinians get through this and to make sure that our workforce remains in its best possible while status through this time it's really interesting.

The details in these reports, which by the way are posted at John Locke.Oregon very valuable.

Interesting information. It seems to me that the briefs I really cover two types of information one has a lot of barriers and and rules and regulations and things that really are keeping people from being able to earn a living in an easier way also keeping us from having access to the. The full group of medical professionals who have skills that we need right now is there's that type of recommendation, but also there when it comes to the issue of finances. Thankfully, North Carolina is in a very good shape in terms of our fiscal decisions of the last several years. Type a little bit if you could about those two major areas. Sure hit on the finances first because this is what a lot of people don't know is just how good the finances are on the state level. Now we know that the there are huge deficits of the federal level, we know that we are at the federal level will struggle to be able to put together a package that's going to really be effective for for all Americans, and if they do, it's going to add to our already astounding deficits in North Carolina. We have huge billion-dollar surpluses. In fact we have at our disposal right now over $3 billion available for whatever lawmakers decide is needed and this may come in the form of refunds or some sort of payment to North Carolinians to help them get through this time. This may come to support aid and any other programs that may be necessary. You know we we don't know exactly how long this is going to last. We don't know how much this states is going to be affected by this. Financially we know. We suspect that there's going to be some sort of recession coming out of this. It's good to know that North Carolina's lawmakers have been prudent in the way that they've dealt with taxpayer funds and are ready for any sort of recession or downturn in the economy that may come our way again.

All of these recommendations are available online at John lock.Oregon on this range of different policy areas very specific recommendations and details. State lawmakers can use when they are crafting a response to what's going on in our state that Terry of course you are not only vice president for research with the you are the director of education studies that your area of particular expertise and it's a huge area that's been impacted by the coronavirus set pandemic. We've got damn kids who are now getting their schooling online and that his Sam brought up a lot of interesting discussion about the opportunity that that affords us, but also the challenges so what you make of online education was a lot of moving parts and there's a lot of question about just how much education we can do online as a state. Now North Carolina has a virtual to virtual charter schools, and a virtual public school. The virtual public school offers courses online mostly to high school students were virtual charter schools provide education to around 5000 North Carolina students on a full-time basis, and so we have some infrastructure right now that can help us with some of the online learning that needs to occur, but the reality is is that we have to think about some some very serious issues. First of all, the availability of broadband's and devices. We know the broadband availability and Internet ready and Internet accessible devices are not evenly distributed across students and state low income students might not have access to these things, therefore, that inhibits their ability to learn online, but more important concern is what to do about those students that have disabilities of special needs students who through federal law are required to receive services through their school and how that would square with online learning. Obviously if they're not in the school building special needs students can't receive the services that they are legally required to receive and so the question is how do we conduct online learning without running afoul of federal special education law and I think that's one of the more serious considerations and I know that the federal and state government is looking at right now is to ensure that everyone receives a education online that is equitable and meets their needs. Terry is it an easy transition to take curriculum from a bricks and mortar in person environment to an online environment and our teachers prepared to do that so more prepared to do that, but many are not. And I think that a lot of times we talk about online education. We underestimate the teachers that spend their time online and then provide online education, whether through B through the virtual charter schools of the virtual public school is that it's a very unique delivery system for instruction and it's not always easy to be able to take what happens in the classroom and just put it online so there's an adjustment that needs to be made. It's not an easy adjustment for a lot of teachers and it varies by grade and by subject.

We can imagine that it teacher teaching math. For example, would have a much easier time putting things online and having students complete assignments than maybe teachers in other areas would have say English.

For example, so we know that there is a great deal of variability in how this is going to be conducted. Terry looking long term do we have any sense at this point of what this could mean will kids be able to be tested will they be able to be promoted to the next grade to graduate we have any idea we are receiving guidance from the federal and state education agency as we speak. So it's not clear right now we know that the testing for example, may be canceled at work would require a waiver from the federal government in order to do so. We have a school calendar law that requires 185 days 1025 hours we don't know whether schools are to be able to complete that requirements and so if that looks like they won't be able to do so, then lawmakers will need to step in and waive that requirement as well. A lot of moving parts. Here a lot of regulations that have to be interpreted. Terry, thank you very much. Thank you. With this much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind. What you need to be reading Carolina journal, honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina journal is free to subscribers sign you'll receive Carolina journal newspaper in your mailbox each month. Investigations into government spending revelations about boondoggles.

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We hold government accountable for you. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Michiko got if you follow the Supreme Court and constitutional law.

You've probably heard about the concept of originalist. What's it all about where can you find a good introduction to it. Prof. Elana Warman of Arizona State University has an answer. It's his book a debt against the living. So why did you write this introduction to originalist will. The short answer is, there wasn't a book like this to the first question really is, why isn't originalist on this idea that we should interpret the Constitution according to its original meaning right that the way to words would have been understood by the framers eroded in the public that ratified it.

That's what this regionalism is wise and hot more than the law schools surprising right we have federal judges who are originalist, probably more than half the Supreme Court the moment is originalist, and so much of the public. I think considers themselves to be originalist or they understand intuitively that we should care with the framers sentence one is not taught in law schools and their reasons for that we can go into that but so as a student as a law student I had to research this on my own eye to look into it on my own.

I had heard about this originals and thing it made sense to me and try to strike out on my own. I didn't find an introduction. I looked for one I could find one.

I had to read all of these very interesting books on particular theories of regionalism and so on.

But there was no one single volume short narrative introduction to originals in its introduction to and defense of regionalism and the founding so I have done all the work for you in this short book as if you wanted introduction there wasn't one before and and now there is one that that's what I thought I had to do it.

You mentioned the founding. How important is the American founding to originalist there different kinds of defenses of regionalism, many of which don't talk about the founding I think that's wrong. I think a complete defense of regionalism requires also a defense of the founding way, the argument of my book works is for the two-step argument right the first question is, look how to interpret law in our legal system right. Ordinarily we first figure out what does this law actually say what is it mean what does it do right, but it's a contractor statute or treaty or a Constitution and then there's the question of okay well are we bound by that law. Are we bound to this contract were bound even by Congress is bad laws right so the question is we interpret legal texts IRQ right the way we interpret any communication intended as a public construction right with its original public meaning right, not a secret meaning right not to be pretty ineffective. Instruction, that's how we interpret these documents, but that doesn't answer the question of will. Should we be bound by that document and all. Someone might say, well, okay, fine. I get that the original meaning of the Constitution is X, Y, and Z but we don't care we don't want to be bound, but what a bunch of long since dead white men wrote so to fully defend regionalism you have to argue that the Constitution is binding law the same way that the laws of Congress are binding such that we should care what it says and we should follow its original meaning because the best non-originalist will say were okay with judges updating the meaning and content of the Constitution. Over time, and so be it. We know we were there even okay distinguishing the Constitution from ordinary loss. They just the Constitution's different.

It's old and it's hard to change that's that's the premise right to fully defend regionalism. I think the originalists has to defend the binding nature of the Constitution and that requires a defense of the founding and my claim as the Constitution is binding if it successfully balances self-government to liberty were chatting with Prof. Elana Warman of Arizona State University. He's author of the book a debt against the living and introduction to originalist.

Why should we care about either of ritualism or the founding. Why not just say majority rules. In a free society like ours. We don't just care about what a majority of the people want what why do we have constitutions, why, what, what does the Constitution for free society have to accomplish in the answers to six. It has to crew successfully create a regime of self-government. This is what you are getting at a regime by which we the people can choose who we want to be and govern ourselves and decide we want to be politically, morally, socially, culturally, economically, what have you but at the same time this exact same document. This exact same piece of paper also has to preserve a large measure of liberty, of natural liberty. Otherwise, why would we get out of the state of nature into this thing called civil society if we got a raw deal. If we give up too much of that freedom we had in this in the state of nature we would never leave the state of nature, so a free Constitution has to balance these two things self-government and liberty and is a balance. Why, because these actives are in tension with each other right, it's often popular majorities that infringe on the rights of minorities, so writing a Constitution that successfully balances these competing objectives is is no easy task and I argue that the framers were remarkably successful at achieving a balance between self-government and liberty, such that the Constitution is legitimate and binding today, even if it's imperfect right and here's here's here's the here's the point right this is the key take something must make a Constitution binding, it can't be that no Constitution is ever binding so the society will fall apart the capital but also can be the case that a Constitution is only binding if it says exactly what you personally wanted to say that's also crazy 300 million Americans might have a different opinion about that.

There must be some middle ground. Something that makes a Constitution legitimate and therefore binding. Even if you think it's imperfect in certain provisions or particulars. My claim is the Constitution is legitimate and binding in the sense if it meets this threshold balancing self-government and liberty. These two objectives are free society. Even if you would do things a bit differently on either side of the equation. All your research suggest to you that this Constitution, and ritualism are pretty good today. We have all of these movements to all we need to change the Constitution, right. Why do we care about what a bunch of dead white men said, but the Constitution is insufficiently Democratic.

They might say right. This is key here. Here's what's so crazy and insidious about the people who want to change the Constitution within the Constitution is bad, some bad document they say two things they say it's insufficiently Democratic. We need better democracy. We need to get rid of the equal representation in the Senate. We need to get rid of the electoral college right it's insufficiently Democratic but at the same time these same people want to make sure that Democratic majorities can't do certain things right. You can decide on moral issues like abortion or gay marriage.

So we want better democracy, but only if it leads to progressive results.

That's crazy. That's typically the approach and as I was reading about the founders and the political philosophy. It turns out that when you have these objectives right. First of all, it was itself an incredible achievement to say we want self-government and we want liberty, and it requires a balance right Republican remedies for the diseases most incidents Republican government's medicines as a federal sent Sibley stating the subjective and the understanding that there in tension with each other. These two objectives is itself in innovation and were indebted to them for that and they did a pretty darn good job of striking this balance pretty amazing job through ingenious mechanisms that were novel at the time, separation of powers, checks and balances. The enumeration of power in this division of federal, state power, the representative mechanism itself was a novelty at the time enforce the provisions in the Bill of Rights were also a novelty more than that which so great about the Constitution of our founders is they wrote it in such a way that it would continue to strike a successful balance between self-government and liberty long into the future on both sides of this equation right. Look at the liberty side of the equation, the rights protecting provisions of the Constitution are written sufficiently broad terms to be applicable to changing circumstances.

Why do you think the First Amendment applies to these speech made on the Internet.

Why do you think the fourth amendment, unreasonable searches and seizures right applies to GPS devices. The police officers put our cards right many things. The founders kind of conceived. The book is a debt against the living and introduction to originalist the author is Prof. Elana Warman of Arizona State University spoke recently in Durham and Raleigh will return with Carolina Journal radio in a moment.

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You also support freedom. Don't forget log on to today, something nice and help defend freedom, help support the John Mott foundation will go back to Carolina Journal radio I'm Ashoka there's an ongoing debate in higher education. How many people should go to college to all of them really need four year degrees are there other ways to get people the skills they need for good long-term careers.

Critics of the college for all crowd cite several alternatives.

The US Labor Department is focusing attention on one of them during a recent visit to North Carolina Labor Secretary Eugene Scalia touted new programs involving apprenticeships, apprenticeships are paid positions that combine on-the-job training and mentorship with classroom instruction in which results of the end of the credential it's recognized by other employers in the industry. Although apprenticeships don't have to involve higher education. Scalia made his announcement on the campus of NC State University today were taking another important step to expand apprenticeships.

The Department of Labor is awarding nearly $100 million to 28 public-private partnership programs across United States. These grants aim to expand apprenticeships and industries that don't have large-scale partnership programs currently. These fields include advanced manufacturing cybersecurity artificial intelligence in healthcare want to help prepare American workers to fill these jobs particularly pleased to announce that NC State will receive one of the grants department is awarding today a $6 million closing the skills gap grant to create a new apprenticeship program in artificial intelligence.

The NC state program will be called artificial intelligence Academy. North Carolina's apprenticeships for innovation. With the grant funds NC State will offer the partnerships that include both a classroom component in an on-the-job training component good IT companies include IBM and Citrix partnerships will typically be around 20 to 40 weeks in length. The University of his partners in the private sector intend to prepare 5000 apprentices for careers and up to 21 different artificial intelligence occupations. The $6 million grant reward is NC State today is among the largest were making and it will be matched with an additional $2.7 million in private sector funding. Congratulations.

That's US Labor Secretary Eugene Scalia is discussing the Labor Department's increased focus on apprenticeships that includes a $6 million grant to NC State University is designed to boost apprenticeships in the field of artificial intelligence will return with more Carolina Journal radio in a moment where doubling down on freedom at Carolina Journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes headlock is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right light Carolina Journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time double down with S.

Listen to Carolina Journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina Journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation will Qubec Carolina Journal radio. I mixed coca like the coronavirus pandemic effect North Carolina's economy in the long run.

Prof. Michael Walton of North Carolina State University address that question in a recent presentation for the John lock foundation will probably headed for recession, we may actually be in a recession, we won't know that for several months.

Clearly this is something of an unexpected and it's created fear among households and businesses countries around the world are in relative lockdown city is is pretty much a lockdown. So when people can get out of this and maybe go to their jobs, they can go to restaurants and spend money they can go to events that's going to have a negative impact on the economy since the news isn't all bad. There's good news. Here it is that going into this crisis. We were in the economy was in good shape but we have very good job numbers. For example, in February we were growing at about a 222 and 20% rate which which is good wages were going out. People are feeling good enough that they were starting to look for other jobs paying more. All that's good. So when we come out of this of the other side. Hopefully we can pick up where we left off. So I view this is temporary. I don't view this is suggesting a long-term long-term decline and hopefully will learn some things about how to deal with viruses I don't know that medical can say with any certainty. We won't ever happen this happen again. Walton says some businesses are likely to rethink some basic elements of their operations because some businesses to rethink their supply chain.

That simply means what is a business get there." And because we sing those businesses that have team supply chain, particularly in Asia, particularly in China really hurt by this and I would expect to see some reevaluation of that to have a lease. The backups try chain or more of your complementary child supply chain here in the country. I think the president's emphasis on for example a rebuilding manufacturing in in this country. I think that probably will get further looks at and perhaps further support because I think were beginning to see this crisis on the downsides of globalization in terms of our linkages with other countries and when those other country.

Baldwin says the coronavirus presents a new economic challenge really and on known territory here I'm 69 years old. I've never seen the country and so many sectors of the country actually shut down so this is totally new to us and how we deal with it. So I use a little bit. I guess when when there critics who say well the government on handling this right, etc. well II sorta say gosh I wouldn't have a playbook for how to handle this and I think one release. I would not want the public officials to early on.

So this is a horrible and great fear when maybe it wasn't horrible but now we know it is something there's a lot of Munger Monday morning back in here in terms of criticism policy that NC State University economist Michael Walton speaking recently to the John Locke foundation's Shaftesbury society. Walton says policymakers will face some important questions how deep into policy do we want to go that is culturally begun program is providing support for caskets and some other health health articles that do we want to go into painful people specifically do we want to go into some one thing Pres. Obama's chief economic advisor Jason Furman said we should $7000 check to every person in the country that would be about three and $60 billion. The president is recommended.

Payroll taxes not be collected for the rest of your lamp is still about $1 trillion.

I think there I think one of the questions right now is to now, what I think Congress and the president will likely pass most, many people can get behind.

When we go deeper than this. I think there can be some questions. This is not like the great recession where it was an economic collapse and where you whether you like it or not, people federal government engaged in typical cyclical response where you provide money, so the consumer school outline again. I think were in unknown territory medically. I think were in unknown territory in terms of the policy also which economic sectors are likely to field biggest hit from the coronavirus manufacturing we have what we have manufacturers here, particularly in electronics and technology that have ties to China and hopefully China is getting back back on their feet, but some of the damage is already been done and then our farmers North Carolina farmers have just been hard-hit over the last nearly 2 or three years, low prices and then on top of that trade war and they were targeted at people will buy China in terms of non-China not find them, and we had optimism in February when the one effect of the so-called phase 1 trade deal with China was announced by the administration and then sign and that deal agreed to by billions and billions of additional farm products and that would've benefited north on farmers. Now I think there's a concern that's not going to happen are certainly not on the original schedule so I think our farmers are impacted by that now horses. This farmers has continued and the steps taken to combat immunity are in the restaurant business, you're going to hear and be heard in the hotel business.

You can be heard dramatically appear in the travel business you're going to be hurt tourism North Carolina has a big tourist industry that's probably going to be hard as we move into the spring and summer settle a lot of industries or an affiliate. That's why it's probably going to need an official recession because recessions have to be broad-based or noxious downturn due to one industry having a problem.

Broad-based Walden ponders the prospects for regulatory reform link to the coronavirus pandemic. This is another learning situation. Hopefully those rules and rip things regarding testing and regarding the responsibility of the government respond to something a health crisis like this. Hopefully those will be reviewed and we really haven't had anything on this scale and the last major update lease, where was the SARS in 2003 we have had some other outbreaks they been very minor.

Bruce probably small step.

Hopefully this will cause us to review those cutter rules and so that we can have the next time the problem will be a next time a more rapid response which economic numbers should we watch in terms of economic data.

I think the job market is going to be key. I would not expect I would not be surprised to see next job reports over to show reduction jobs and a slight increase in the unemployment rate not looking for anything dramatic like unemployment going up double digits over 3 1/2%.

I could see that go up to maybe hi threes, maybe 4% and then will want to look for whether that starts to decline, and you get an initial reaction. Initial indication that by looking at the initial claims for unemployment which are going to rise and then so I will look to see if things are coming down. So those are all standard things that economists look at the were probably couple months away from from seeing and turning the corner some proposals for addressing the economic hit involve lots of new government spending. Walden addresses the potential downside there is research that suggests that as the debt rises as a percent of GDP be hidden because the people and city's that had an impact on slowing economic growth, the more that we go into debt publicly.

The less the private sector economy grows, which means down the road that's less wealth generated in the economy and less jobs. That's Prof. Michael Walton economist at NC State University is discussing potential long-term economic impacts link to the coronavirus pandemic overture North Carolina journal radio in a moment really influence you either have it or you don't and at the John Mott foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina.

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Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I'm Donna Martinez with the coronavirus dominating world.

US and state news. It's easy to forget that we are only about seven months or so away from the 2020 presidential election.

What will this public health challenge mean to politics.

Rick Henderson is editor-in-chief of Carolina journal. He joins us now to talk about the political implications of what were all experiencing Rick welcome back to the program. We have seen the state of Ohio postpone is sad.

Presidential primary is it chaos or really organized chaos as each state tries to figure out what to do only six going to do what it what this leaders think are best for the estate. There are a number of people across the political perspective who are somewhat troubled bio height with Ohio's decision to do that because essentially there's a very stringent set of rules when elections are to take place for primaries states that that but for general elections in federal years, Congress says that in the rules involving things like absentee ballots of military voters that relinquish our federal and so there's so concerned that if other states start doing that.

The could cause some problems in constitutional issues, but nobody wants to to actually hash out right now. They'd rather keep people safe so there's there's that angle to it.

Probably the fortunate thing for all at least on the federal level is that it's pretty clear that the two presidential nominees from major parties are settled.

It's going to be Donald Trump or Joe Biden.

That's the not much doubt about that but you have an awful lot of states we have primaries for races from the lowest level of municipal government all the way up to U.S. Senate and so that's going to cause some concerns.

We get to see a push for voting by mail Washington state already does. This is at the future. That's one thing you see a lot more of. I think we may well see some sort of push for secure online voting.

I'm not sure it can be done but you see, we've had people talk about that before the Ross Perot talked about doing things like that that was what 25+ years ago.

So I think we're going to set I think it is those people who have been concerned about the security of things like early voting in no no consequence absentee ballot all that stuff is been steamrolled by events right now and so I think those sorts of options.

Perhaps extending periods of early voting and things like that.

We may well see that at least for this election cycle.

It's been interesting to watch the national media coverage of the president and his administration's response to the coronavirus pandemic and data separate from the issue of public health and all the decisions that are being there made regarding that. Let's talk about the politics of it.

He is being appraised by some and panned by others. What is this mean for his reelection while he stumbled into this very badly. Initially, he didn't take it very seriously. He said it was to be over with. By the early 15 cases in the US in the hallway.

He was appearing at news conferences without his top public health officials initially and for whatever reason, I think some people say Tucker Carlson flipped and said what about this problem within you suddenly started to see him take a completely different tone be very serious about it and notwithstanding what he said or what he said or whatever. He has certainly been deferring more and more to people who have specific expertise about the sorts of things you Dr. Anthony Faucher use the head of this National Institutes of Health. He sees the basically the, the, the infectious disease expert docs a week.

Other than the Surgeon General right and maybe now is you manually more important, the Surgeon General, a lot of ways he has certainly stepped up and given the message of take this seriously, but don't panic.

I think somebody else at the at the North Carolina but federal level who is really stepped up in a big way is Greg Murphy was the congressman from the third District. He was the only MD in the Gen. assembly when he was there he won the seat that used to be held by Walter Jones Junior he is been very active on social media again saying listen, take these things seriously do these precautions wash your hands of state practice social distancing.

This is going to be something is going be really difficult for a period of a few weeks, but if we handle this right then it will subside if we don't handle this right and we got possibly months of complete disruption.

We've heard a lot about the flattening of the curve, so to speak, trying to make sure that we don't have a steep, steep increase in diagnoses, essentially creating the bell that other countries have seen. We want ours to be flat okay so that's the Trump opposition what Joe Biden as the presumptive Democratic nominee has. He has all the air been sucked out of the room for him or is he kind of the raising his profile as part of this he did some things right before the second super Tuesday if you will, where he mentioned that he convened a panel of experts all respected medical public health officials and started talking about his own plans for dealing with the virus. I don't think that if you if you look at the way things stand. As of the time were recording and the vice president's plans that the presence in Boston for vice president's plans are really all that different, but he did sort of step forward a little bit before the president did all this.

So I think right now people are essentially perceiving both of them at all on a par the vice president sometimes person presents a more calming presence.

Other times, because of his verbal flubs. A less common presence and so that the other. This is something that no one has dealt with probably sincere for a century.

As far as this is concerning, wherefore so much more interconnected society and a much larger population than we had done in the 1918 flu pandemic it so this is something is completely new and some people are are stepping up singly better than others about this and will have to wait and see if there is a political impact at all for either one of those candidates to the North Carolina governors race because it's gotten pretty interesting here course. We have Democrat Roy Cooper who is the incumbent, and he has been not along with his public health officials really leading the charge here reacting here in North Carolina. One of the things that he did a few days ago was to issue that executive order about no dining in at restaurants in North Carolina. You can still do delivery or take out the current Lieut. Gov. Dan Forest.

He was also the Republican Party's nominee challenging Roy Cooper for the top job reacted to that tell us about Lieut. Gov. Forrest said correctly that the executive order that the governor issued was based on the state statute which gives him certain emergency powers and that that Executive Order had to be approved by a majority of the members of the Council state those statewide elected executive branch officials and it wasn't.

We know at least six of the 11 voted against it potentially seven. We don't know what's at the summit was daughter Beth would, but they voted against the portion of it, not the portion of dealing with providing additional benefits and things like that striping when the unemployment the regulations and the like. Employment insurance regulations are doing with the restaurant closures and the banning of all large gatherings in the.

The argument they made which is legally or correct what is it was not approved properly and the other argument that they initially made the kind walk away from.

When I got some pushback was that perhaps it's possible that we shouldn't we could have a separate set of rules for large cities and urban and suburban areas in the more rural parts of the state where the effective house arrest of everyone doesn't make any sense at all. Where there are no large gatherings, and what you why banning restaurants in very slightly populated areas and why can't we have different sets of rules for different circumstances is going to be politically very difficult. Dan Forest when I think you may be right on the law and of course Carolina journal is following every development of the situation. Available also on twitter@Carolina journal Rick Anderson is editor-in-chief. Thank you, Rick. That's all the time we have for the program this week on behalf of Michiko Guyton. I'm Donna Martinez. Thank you for joining us. Hope you join us again next week Carolina journal radio Carolina journal radio is a program of the John lock foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation including donations support programs like Carolina journal radio send email to development John Locke or call 1866 JL left info 166-553-4636 Carolina journal radio is the John line foundation airline is maintaining Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are so clearly reflect the station formation about the show. Other programs and services of the foundation toll-free at 866 JL would like to thank our wonderful radio affiliates across Carolina Carolina journal radio. Thank you for listening.

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