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Carolina Journal Radio No. 884: JLF leads national effort to boost state CARES Act flexibility

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
April 27, 2020 8:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 884: JLF leads national effort to boost state CARES Act flexibility

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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April 27, 2020 8:00 am

The John Locke Foundation is leading a national effort to ensure state governments have more flexibility in their use of federal CARES Act money. Without that flexibility, states will have incentives to engage in unsustainable new spending. John Locke Foundation CEO Amy Cooke explains how JLF is working to help avoid that outcome. North Carolina could lose half its small businesses if government doesn’t relax soon the economic restrictions tied to the COVID-19 pandemic. Ray Starling, general counsel of the NC Chamber, delivered that warning recently to state lawmakers. Starling also offered lawmakers a larger assessment of the pandemic’s impact on the business community. He offered ideas for addressing businesses’ concerns. Legislators will reconvene in Raleigh next week. Some of them have been preparing in advance for legislation responding quickly to COVID-19’s impact. State House Speaker Tim Moore, R-Cleveland, discusses the goals of special House working groups that spent weeks meeting online. The pandemic has upended traditional education in North Carolina, including public community colleges and universities. Before the health scare, higher education leaders already were discussing the need to adapt to the state’s changing economic needs. Peter Hans, president of the N.C. Community College System, co-chairs the MyFutureNC group. Hans and Jeni Corn, MyFutureNC’s director of strategic initiatives, discussed that group’s goals before the pandemic struck the state. The pandemic continues to prompt changes in K-12 education as well. Terry Stoops, the John Locke Foundation’s vice president for research and director of education studies, discusses potential COVID-19 impacts on summer school, the possible extension of the school year, and students’ readiness for the next grade level.

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From chair to current and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome Carolina Journal radio I Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state. The covert 19 pandemic is shut down much of North Carolina's business community representative of the NC chamber recently gave state lawmakers an update on the damage lawmakers returned to Raleigh next week, but many of them have been busy in recent weeks, with online meetings statehouse speaker Tim Moore explains why they decided to get a jump on the legislative session before the pandemic. The state's higher education leaders already identified a need to adapt to new economic conditions you learn about the group my future and see Emil learn how the covert, 19 pandemic is affecting public school issues such as summer school and student readiness for the next grade. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us and she has the Carolina Journal headline the John Mott foundation is leading a national effort to highlight a critical flaw in the $2 trillion federal relief package tied to the covert, 19 pandemic fixing that flaw could help state governments avoid essentially unsustainable budgets. Amy Cook is the CEO of the John Locke foundation. She joined us now to talk about why the rock foundation is getting involved with talking about this issue. Amy welcome back to the show.

Donna, thanks so much for having me again so that you trillion dollar package one would presume that at least some of this is going out to the states and local governments to are not going to be seeing the tax revenue they thought they would have sales tax, income tax, etc. but apparently not. Will it's the interesting thing about this whole package and and I have to give credit to two people in particular one is our own Joe Colletti who who found this along with Sarah Curry from the Platt Institute.

They really work together. They they they brought it to the attention of the Platt Institute CEO Jim Vogel and then Joe brought it to me here at at the Locke foundation and we decided it was too important of an issue that we couldn't just sort of like our make turn it into your just a column or something like that it needed to rise to the level of getting other state-based think tanks involved in seeing if if they felt the same way.

We didn't turns out we had something like 16 other CEOs of other state-based think tanks that sign on to a letter that we presented to Congress. Here's here's the problem with this Donna. It's a $2 billion in $2 trillion package rank part of that includes a set amount for states at the hundred and $21.25 billion for every state. Plus, there's a little bit more added on four population suggest depending on what state depends on you know how much money you get, but it's a baseline of 1.25 billion in the states and of course municipalities below other local governments have seen, as you said this Suitable absolute limit in their revenue and when Joe and Sarah were looking at the language of that 1.25 billion what the language suggests it wasn't really what the spirit of the law was supposed to be the spirit was intended.

The intent of the law was to help states and local governments that we can't print money right and we were not what most don't answer wanted to be able to sort of shore up state and local governments that took the advice of the CDC practiced safe social didn't distance think that is essentially shutting down key industries or shutting down business to meet here. North Carolina is an absolute hub as we know, for craft breweries and restaurants and it's it's it's really like a foodie's paradise. Well, the food industry in the retail industry got hit hard. That means revenue coming into state and local government is just plummeting all of it is crashing and in what this 1.25 billion. The intent was to shore up those government so they wouldn't have to raise taxes in the future that was that was the idea the concept behind it, but it's not happening yet what the language of it was a little bit all almost compelling state and local governments to create new spending, which then what I was talking with Joe Colletti in talking with Sarah. Of course at the Platt Institute what it reminded me of those of us who remember the 9/11 packages stimulus packages that came out remembering where it was just there.

There was a lot of new spending, especially for first responders and things like that you, there were fire stations that Renew gym equipment, things like that and I'm not saying that that stuff is important but that may not of been the original intent of that package or in the case of the 2008 2009. The great recession we had the stimulus package in 2009 and then you just saw gobs of money going to serve pet projects and in new spending. I was in Colorado at the time and we were tracking some of that the the green initiatives, and it was they were propping up. New York actually died in propping they were they were new programs were popping out. For instance, there was a state agency there that went from usually having about you know, five to $6 million to spend, having $150 million to spend and they were just like literally throwing out money I think is, as Joe Colletti put it, literally, vomiting, money, federal money, so this what we did then was we decided to write this letter and and just encourage Congress that if they're going to do this doping gives states some flexibility in how they use it in the time on the same thing is really important because were hearing all sorts of discussion about another package and maybe even another one. Beyond that package.

So the money is going to be flowing. One would think that if this money in the $2 trillion package is set aside at least some of it is you said at least 1.25 billion to each state plus more, depending on your population what it sounds like we are setting up for is that they would create these new programs spend the money, but then still look at their their citizens and say oh my gosh. We had a hole in our budget because we didn't have this tax revenue and by then it's too late to say hey but what did you do with the 1.25 billion that you got from the feds right and and and you bring up a great point to about that, because yesterday there's a new spending rate the result that they were there could potentially be a lot of new spending and then she said they go back to taxpayers and by the way were to our governor here in North Carolina just said you know I'm not generally flip on the economics which were just can put on a dimmer.

I want to know how long were you to be in that darkness so so we can. We are looking at having a population that would be able to sustain a tax increase to meet.

I can't imagine anything worse for North Carolina's economy than what's going on right now except the middle layer on layer on a tax increase to fill the holes of the new spending that have been created that has been created which probably wasn't the intent of this bill. So what we're asking them what we are at an exit by the way the White House asked for feedback so was really in the spirit of of that White House asked for feedback.

We are proud to lead the organ air lead that the effort to do this was to watch the language of that and please give states the flexibility. Now we know they're going to be some bad actors right there to be some states it was in Illinois is we all know is where good budgeting and fiscal responsibility goes to die. North Carolina, on the other hand, is you were fiscally responsible. Here are our state legislatures did a phenomenal job to give them the flexibility to some to be able to do that don't force them to do to create new spending. Now this letter that the John Locke foundation has helped coordinate with the Platt Institute and signed by the CEOs not only the John Mott foundation and the Platt Institute, but a number of other state think tanks across the country has been sent to the leaders of the United States Congress. Amy Cook is the CEO of the John Locke foundation. Thank you Amy try to stay with us a lot more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind. What you need to be reading Carolina journal, honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina journal is free to subscribers sign you'll receive Carolina journal newspaper in your mailbox each month. Investigations into government spending revelations about boondoggles who the powerful leaders are and what they're doing in your name and with your money.

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We hold government accountable for you. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio. I mixed coca businesses across North Carolina have been rocked by government's response to the covert, 19 pandemic during a recent online briefing state lawmakers heard from Ray Starling's general counsel for the North Carolina chamber. Starling presented a list of challenges for businesses dropping netlist concerns about employee safety of its employees keep in mind that we often think about help? Do we have employers telling you you're also having to address mental and emotional well-being among employees.

You see that reference.

There is an industries and sectors where folks are being asked to do even more, while at the same time they see their neighbors at home working from home so there's a little piece of this is well initially. Our employees are lawyers are trying to comply with all of the orders that are out there. All the directive is to keep us safe. Employees are more than the normal one of the challenges we are hearing is the study open some additional measures. At least one employer at masks on hand a couple weeks ago they donated them to their local health care community and now were all being told it would be so they don't always in conduct is incredibly difficult.

After 60 Starling turned to a sudden jolt and demand for business products and services in shock you and your diminished business activity.

Locke came back and showed that 24 to 25% businesses already small business and among those that have not longer 75%, 40% of the believe that they will have to do so nothing changes that get you small-business that will as a result of the pandemic and others. Of course hours. The daunting real question here in window.

These losses become unrepairable at what point is the way to keep the double whammy] restrictions obviously impact demand is clearly reduced consumer is also completely disrupted the individual is really not a lot different than the complex business investor certainty and not sure what to do next and impact confidence is a really strong correlation between consumer spending much of the clearly feeling the pain of not being a product key issue also deals with limited movement during the pandemic. Rather, in the major challenge for several of our members is global or complex supply chain business as we clearly do the same clear significant disruption here that rely upon Chinese manufacturing and and those that rely on your friends is a significant amount of that actually passenger planes was about going in here, clearly feeling here in terms of freight that slay Starling general counsel of the North Carolina chamber.

He offered an online briefing for state lawmakers addressing the COBIT 19 pandemic Starling turned his attention to smaller companies are larger demand around small buyers make our purchases readily understood. Some businesses feel the impact of shifting the mat in the world aware up until about a dollar going into restaurants that is now shifting in the obviously all your having to sort through that in terms of where your product is one years about the imagine is your input or world. Starling also cited concerns about access to credit capital and new concerns about lawsuit liability is one example link directly to the pandemic. We got a lot of sleep manufacturer PPE when that is not traditionally the day we may learn the two other PPE manufacturing when the cool part is so. We need to actions of their neck out there and are willing: you will for many North Carolina businesses have concerns about what lies ahead. We got have some certainty how do we turn the water. We were the notion that know it really is a business owner on the payroll.

Your recovery is the wrong way.

We are having visions with the league bearing across the state regulating activity really mastered those in some way. The lack of uniformity, sometimes even great is competitor or may not been challenging and right we already and bodies to be continued and certainly anything for your help. All Starling offer lawmakers a plea about any state-based changes involving unemployment entirely nation that employers make is not a general fund money we would submit very quickly that we need to maintain a long-term program after all the bad news. Starling ended on a high note is also a number of businesses who are doing it really is lying on her website. See the others a lot and frankly the lottery is positioned in many leadership itself is will we have a very economy with hearing people as quickly that slay Starling general counsel of the North Carolina chamber recently offered state lawmakers and online briefing on the COBIT 19 pandemic's impact businesses will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment.

If you love freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina it's one stop shopping. North Carolina's freedom You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education James G. Martin Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council.

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Have you covered with up to the second information like us on Facebook the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal follow us on Twitter at John lock in the sea and at Carolina journal. Who knew you could shop and invest in freedom at the same time it is true online shopping is now a great way to support the John Locke foundation just shop using the Amazon smile program and designate the John lot foundation to receive a portion of your purchase amount that's right you shop Amazon donates money to pass the John Locke foundation. Here's how long.

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But here's what's better design donates 0.5% of the price of your eligible Amazon smile purchases to the John lot foundation. Be sure to designate us as the nonprofit you want to support. It's that easy. So now not only will you enjoy what you buy. You also support freedom. Don't forget log on to today, something nice and help defend freedom, help support the John Mark foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Michiko got North Carolina lawmakers are looking at steps they can take to help cope with the covert, 19 coronavirus pandemic House Speaker Tim Moore spelled out a study committee's goals, try to come up with solutions to order a lot of jobs that we never we have challenges when it comes to healthcare, education, tax you are policy as well as the overall economy force the government. One group is focusing on government, including the future of the Gen. assembly itself. What will we come back in April where will we be in terms of meeting how we perceive like they were looking at several things right now. Perhaps allowing voting is normal 15 seconds about allowing 30 minutes or half hour pool our whatever is needed in order to do so looking at those kinds of things. Looking at the course expanding this kind of technology to allowing more committees to make Gen. assembly reconvenes soon, we know when we come back with me to the ground running like this would be a lot more a lot more flexibility in terms of us view these issues now so that when we come back at the end of April beginning of May that we can move forward and try to get some consensus legislation passed.

What are some goals of the next legislative session. It is our intention that whenever we command that we also pass a law that expands not only the following for taxes and waives any penalties but also ways bankers can have assurance that if they wait in favor state income taxes in July is also many more were seeing a lot of efforts being made to make sure that those who are unemployed get access to their unemployment insurance benefits. Just as soon as they can. We know there's some issues with giving this process right now working on ways and communicating naturally with the owner try to find ways to speed that process up as well, nor small impact greatly.

You can here in Raleigh to walk around and see all the restaurants and things that are normally crowded. Of course no one's there. All those folks who are working and getting paid by the hour pay their bills every month. What they're getting now ponder their world turned upside down. Make sure they get their help. We know that the federal government passed a record amount $2 trillion in roughly $4 billion will be coming to North Carolina 4 billion. Approximately 55% appears to be actually coming to stay 45% will go to local government.

We know that all these these challenges, whoever we know there are also opportunities as North Carolina always says we will get through this state House Speaker Tim Moore Republican from Cleveland County discussing the Gen. assembly's role in helping North Carolina deal with the COBIT 19 coronavirus pandemic more Carolina journal radio where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes headlock is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well.

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Listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Michiko got many of the jobs in our state's growing economy require more than a high school diploma. Yet fewer than half of North Carolinians between the ages of 25 and 44. Hold a high quality post secondary degree or credential. So what should we do about this mismatch between available jobs and workers preparation for those jobs that question helps drive the work of the my future and see commission joining us now to discuss the groups work. Peter Hans was president of the North Carolina community college system and cochairman of my future and see Jenny Korn, who is director of strategic initiatives for my future and see thanks for both of you for joining us.

Thank you Mitch so obviously this is a big issue. The future of North Carolina's economy. Having workers who can fit in these jobs. What is my future in C trying to do about this Mitch.

This is a coalition of business, political, and educational leaders who come together to fix the leaky pipeline in our education system. Right now we've got a skills gap and an opportunity gap facing the state skills gap in the sense that there is a disconnect between the skills that our citizens have and those skills that employers are looking for, often in high demand fields. There's an opportunity gap in the sense that while there is broad growth and prosperity in the economy many individuals, many communities are being left out and left behind if they have the opportunity to increase their educational credentials will be better prepared for the jobs of today, much less tomorrow know as the person who heads up the statewide community college system cells is that the spitz right in the wheelhouse of what community colleges are about, and indeed it does are 58 colleges servant 700,000 students annually, North Carolina very focused on skilled workforce, workforce development, economic development. This is something North Carolina's been looking at for a while. How does my future in C fit in with this whole picture. So my frenzy I think is really unique and special because of the commitment from cross sector leaders. It really is been benefiting from people like Pres. Hans in his leadership. President Roper of the UNC system, Mark Johnson, state superintendent of K-12 public schools. It's really this cross sector continuum in partnership with some of our best funders and some of the business leader CEOs from the medical field IT field banking those kind of those jobs that are driving growth in North Carolina and making sure that were thinking about it as an all hands on deck. Everybody being at the table. I'm really thinking about the work that the community college system is been leading in the state for so long and partnership with the K-12 community are local superintendents are local economic development work and workforce boards and really think about how we can really drive some of this plan from the state level and also engage down at the local level really meeting meeting our communities where they are and helping him to move to move forward in partnership across regions across county lines together. That is the voice of Jenny Korn. She is director of strategic initiatives set my future and see your also listening to Peter Hans who was president of the North Carolina community college system and cochairman of my future and see I guess a lot of people will hear us and saved out sounds about right. North Carolina needs to do something different for these jobs of the future. What are you doing what's happening at my future and see right now things that work and be working on and working right now on our strategic plan and resending the next couple months getting feedback or doing partnership with our board but really focused on a couple of of key core responsibilities, one about engaging the public in a conversation about the importance of education after high school.

There is a real wage difference for North Carolinians that have a high school diploma versus an Associates degree versus a bachelors or beyond. Tens of thousands of dollars difference. By the time you are 10 to 15 years out so really driving economic prosperity for North Carolina citizens and helping having conversation about how critical education can be to meet to meet your family's needs will also be doing on some additional cross sector work from the state all the way down to the local level were partnering with Carolina demography Dr. Becky Tippett is at UNC Chapel Hill and she has in her team have built a brand-new statewide dashboard so that we can measure our progress not just to the goal that we have indicators along the way. Really helping both at the state level in the local communities see where they have where they have places to grow, where their biggest assets are whether it's pre-k early enrollment. Whether it's K-3 reading or other high school graduation and enrollment into the our postsecondary systems that a lot of people have been saying for years and years. More people need to go to college and referred to push back on that saying you know for your degree is not necessarily the best thing for everyone. How does my future in C work on those issues. One of the things I especially appreciate about the my future North Carolina effort Mitch is that it's not just focus on degrees, but education credentials more broadly considered including industry recognized credential certifications in a number of fields that we would offer through the community college system in workforce training for four year degrees are great were an affordable path. Actually, through the community college to a four-year degree, but there are multiple pathways to success and I think society actually to our great detriment is undervalued. Other pathways to success including a vocational education which would be recognized as part of attainment in North Carolina as part of this effort if North Carolina doesn't do anything. We basically just keep the status quo and decide things will work themselves out.

What kinds of problems we have in terms of this mismatch between the jobs that will be there at people's ability to do those jobs which I think it could be considerable gap, but really it's the community colleges that have those scale the depth and the reach for North Carolina to achieve that goal because we are so accessible and affordable and flexible and yet still offer a range of high quality programs that are relevant to each individual circumstance.

Lots of unfilled jobs. If we if we don't do a thing about this, absolutely. So if we as is usual, current, current population projections, enrollment projections say that by 2030. North Carolina will have 1.6 million N. Carolinians between ages of 25 to 44 with some sort of post secondary degree or credential. Now that also means that that's an estimate of credentials part of the work and I think present Hans exactly right. Part of the really exciting piece of this work is trying to more more effectively define the number of credentials that North Carolina North Carolinians earned that leads to Noah's family sustaining wage. It's a conversation that other states are having it will be a lot of work over the next couple of years to really be able to define it tightly. But I think it really does recognize that it's not just you know I degree but really matching the credentials that our employers are looking for.

With that the North Carolina workforce that in order to meet those those needs. Employers are increasingly hiring for skills rather than degrees.

You talk about how at this stage. A lot of this is about community engagement getting people involved. People want to learn more about my future and see what should they do what we've got. My future and see website. It's my future and Jenny Korn is director of strategic initiatives that my future and see Peter Hans is cochairman of my future and see yet of course also the president of the North Carolina community college system.

Thanks for joining us that you met Shank you will have more on Carolina journal radio just about really influence you either have it or you don't and at the John Mott foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina. So while others talk or complain or name call. We provide research solutions and hope our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more. When you look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control over your life. Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse, the envy of every other state research is how policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you are.

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The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio time, Donna Martinez, as you listen to this program, North Carolina school kids may well be sitting near you at a computer engaged in virtual learning course.

That's the transition in K-12 education that has been required here in North Carolina due to Gov. Roy Cooper's order to close all public schools till at least mid May as covert, 19 Works Its Way through North Carolina here to discuss some of the implications of kids going online and bricks and mortar schools being closed is Dr. Terry stoops. He is the vice president for research. The director of education studies here at the John Locke foundation Terry welcome back. Thank you so this could not be more in your wheelhouse. Not only are you the researcher and analyst, or a former teacher yourself. You are one of the founders of a public charter school in White County.

Your wife is a teacher and administrator so tell us what's going on. Our kids showing up online for school will some definitely are, but we don't know how many are actually showing up online and you know you have some of the teachers reporting on social media that almost all their students are showing up and you have other teachers reporting on social media that barely any of their students are showing up, and because teachers are not keeping attendance. It will be impossible for us to know how many students have been showing up for those virtual sessions were completing assignments and other problematic compounds. This is the fact that there are no grades, necessarily being given a lot of schools have moved to a pass fail model so as long as students are doing the minimal amount of work.

They'll probably pass and so that's another complicating factor in trying to transition from the bricks and mortar education to an online one. We know that in districts around the state.

We are hearing and reading stories that there may be some kids who don't have adequate access to the Internet. Other kids may not have the motivation or have parents in the household. Maybe the parents are out working in and what's printed defined, is essential services is it that kind of thing that is keeping kids away or is there just a perception that school really isn't in session.

There is a wide variety of reasons why students aren't showing up. Certainly the limitations of having an Internet accessible device is one or a broadband connection.

I think that's a very important reason why some kids aren't showing up, but you find that there are students that don't feel like this is a real education of the pass anyway so they don't feel it necessary, you have some parents that are starting to believe that this really is in a real education either and that they would rather have their child doing other activities.

Then engaging in online learning with the teacher that is only occasionally in contact with their child.

One of the upper floors on Twitter recently was apparent saying that she's done having her to do online education for the for the year because she doesn't think that it's very valuable for him and that she can come up with the activities that are much more valuable for his education and you start to see some other parents agreeing that the education that their kids are receiving online is not up to par and so they see it as a waste of time for their child pass fail. Seems to me to have all sorts of implications that number one. How do you really know is there an indication that a child has done well or not done well what about those kids who spent the part of the school year prior to covert, 19 working really hard in trying to get that AA trying to build up their their grades so that they can do well next year or in the case of older kids move on to college.

This is been an issue in wake County that there wake County parents are upset. The grades are being given just for that very reason.

The kids been working hard. They've been taking advanced placement courses they've been trying to get the highest GPA possible to get into competitive colleges and universities in the house on a pass fail system where these kids are on par basically with students that are trying as hard. So for the most parts a lot of school districts have resisted the temptation to go back to conventional grading system and are going to a pass fail, probably because of the unpredictability of the education was being offered and the unpredictability of what the students are being asked to do and put forward as is work. Terry is the school year going to end the traditional time.

What's what's ahead here will that's that's really the question, Gov. Cooper close schools until May 15 and that means that schools can reopen on May 18 and that really is the best case scenario at this point I think around 21 states have canceled classes for the rest of the school year. I think Gov. Cooper was smart to not cancel classes for the rest of the school year and at least give an opportunity for students to come back for a few weeks before the end of the traditional school year, but I think in the ends. He will probably cancel classes for the rest of the school year and will be faced with having to deal with the learning loss that came from these previous couple months and from the summer and that will be the real dilemma going forward is what we do for the students who have been ill-served by online education and received no education over the summer and to that point.

Let's kinda work out the scenario but let's say that the governor chooses to cancel the entire school year. What if there is a county or counties that wants to come back into session feels they need to.

For example, it is you and I are talking, there are at least half a dozen North Carolina counties that have zero incidents of confirmed covert, 19 cases that would local districts have the ability to say that's nice. Gov. Cooper but we know best here on the ground in our county.

Probably not think that the governor's order would probably stand in that case and probably most school administrators be reluctant to buck the governor in deciding to come back so I don't think that would necessarily happen.

I think it would certainly be a sound idea and it should be one that's being discussed with the governor but the governor would probably have to give some sort of opening for that to happen and there might be some real big time funding questions involved in a decision like that as well. Since big piece of funding comes from the state, at least, so that's can be fascinating to watch out going forward as we hit mid-May and what the governor's decision will be Terry. I am also seeing on social media. Some parents saying well you know is the answer to try to catch my kid up is the answer. A longer day. I have year class load. What you hear about that. Well, we don't know and there's a lot of discussion being put forward about what to do next. Some options include a summer session, but that would require the required excuse me additional funds. There is been a proposal to hold kids back, low income, low performing students should have to repeat the grade next year. I don't think that one is going to go very far and so I think a lot of people are looking to see what's can happen is 2020 2021 school year whether there will be longer instructional days in other ways for the teachers to be able to catch up and make sure that students are prepared for not only what they missed. But what they were to learn during the next school year. What is this mean for testing that we traditionally see done each school year and our ability to measure a student's growth, learning, growth from year to year. Well testing is waived this year and I think the general assembly is eventually to pass legislation that codifies the waivers were granted by the federal government through questions. What we do with the 2020 2021 school year. Should we continue testing then is it valuable to have test scores. After students missed months of school. I don't believe that it is I think we should waive it for next year as well just concentrated on getting kids caught up.

I think we have to look at using the next school year as a recovery school year Terry, thank you very much for joining us think that's all the time we have for the program this week. Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch.

Okay I'm Donna Martines. Join us again next week for another edition of Carolina Journal radio program on the job.

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