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Carolina Journal Radio No. 701: JLF’s Agenda offers road map for conservative N.C. reformers

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
October 24, 2016 12:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 701: JLF’s Agenda offers road map for conservative N.C. reformers

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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October 24, 2016 12:00 am

Conservative government reformers have made great strides in North Carolina in recent years, but there’s still room for improvement. The 20th-anniversary edition of the John Locke Foundation’s Agenda book spells out 85 recommendations for free-market, limited-government reforms in taxation, spending, education, health care, property rights, and other critical areas of state government. JLF Vice President for Research Roy Cordato discusses some of the recommendations and explains why they would help North Carolina prosper. This year’s presidential election will have a profound impact on the American courts. Doug Bandow, senior fellow at the Cato Institute, reminds us that the next president will nominate a replacement for the late Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia. Since three other sitting justices have reached or surpassed the average retirement age, Bandow says it’s likely that the next president could appoint almost half of the members of the nation’s highest court. Bandow analyzes the potential judicial impact of either a Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump presidency. The state auditor’s office generates plenty of documents each year. Most spell out problems in specific agencies or programs. But Auditor Beth Wood recently shared with lawmakers some key issues that crop up repeatedly in audits across state government. The University of North Carolina system continues to look for ways to provide more “bang for the buck.” One option under consideration is an increased focus on performance-based funding. Matthew Pellish of the Education Advisory Board recently briefed the UNC Board of Governors on performance-based funding options used by university systems across the country. You’ll hear highlights from his remarks, along with questions and reaction from the BOG. Carolina Journal continues to shine light on stories involving government rules that limit people’s use of their private property. Associate Editor Barry Smith offers updates on two of his most recent stories. First, a judge has told the N.C. Department of Transportation that it must move forward in making payment to Forsyth County property owners who successfully challenged North Carolina’s Map Act. Second, the Durham Rescue Mission has been forced to reassess its options now that the city council has determined that part of the mission’s property is subject to the costly rules associated with a local historic district.

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From Cherokee to current attack from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio amateur coconut during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state. This year's election will have a major impact on the US Supreme Court, an expert from the Cato Institute will join us to explain why the next president will have a chance to reshape the court's direction, the state auditor's office focuses on specific programs and agencies, but many of the same problems crop up again and again in audits across state government you learn the details you would see system is looking into performance-based funding to help ensure the University delivers bang for the buck national expert offers some ideas possible have updates of two recent Carolina Journal stories involving government restrictions of private property rights. Those stories are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline North Carolina can set the stage for economic prosperity by pursuing policies that promote and enhance individual liberty.

That is the driving theme behind more than 85 recommendations on everything from taxes, spending, education, healthcare, regulation, property rights and a lot more. All of this detailed in the 20th anniversary edition of the John Locke foundation's agenda.

Dr. Roy Coronado and his research team have authored the new agenda report. He joins us now to talk about it.

Roy welcome back to the program and to be back on why produce the agenda well from the beginning.

The comes out every two years during the election season for you it's it's the season it's the years where there we have all the legislature is up for election and four years.

The governor, so it gets really focuses on North Carolina state issues.

Although it's much broader than this. It's at least in part a sort of policy guide for candidates and we hope when those candidates eventually take office will be a a policy guide in terms of how to how to govern the state.

So that's the primary focus sake. Here's what John Locke foundation think should be going on. North Carolina public policy. If someone were to actually look at agenda. By the way it is available and John you can download a PDF of the document or read it online. Whichever you prefer. It's primarily for candidates in the election cycle, but Roy everything in here is really important to anyone who wants to believe in and help promote freedom if you're trying to figure out what how can know for how does a free-market person. For example, a person believes in individual liberty, limited government, how would a person who has those views tackle whatever the issue, I mean, you mentioned that several of them for anywhere from regulation of property rights taxes economic growth.

We cover everything in this booklet. This is the place to go. I mean it is like I think a a very complete guide, particularly with respect to to the economic issues. Now, as is typical John Locke foundation. We do not cover's social issues in the book but it's it's what we do as an organization. The guiding principles then being keep government limited services.

Keep government limited to core services and have them do those efficiently and the and promote by really staying out of the way.

Entrepreneurship investment economic growth.

A sound education system. A sound healthcare system by essentially leaving decisions to consumers and producers over the past several years, both in the legislature and from the governor we seen some progress in some of the oh yeah major progress are things I was writing about. 03 or four agendas ago us much of it is come to fruition.

In terms of tax policy. For example, what would the tax reform in 2013 and then later on subsequent reductions in taxes and corporate taxes we have seen the agenda. I think have a significant influence on public policy makers. There are areas where we need to do things right healthcare I think is a big one. We for many years, going, going as far back as I can remember. The agenda has been calling for elimination of certificate of need laws which dramatic dramatically control who can enter the healthcare market who can enter the hospital market. You know who can buy and and provide MRI services.

We think they should be eliminated. Well were so we still think they should be eliminated in on that score. Roy, our listeners may not realize that the government state government plays a major role in deciding what services are quote needed and essentially that's a permission slip, that's exactly what is they decide, rather than market participants and sidewalk services are needed where they're needed, how they should provoke be provided that is all very centrally controlled by the state government so that it's kind of the antithesis of what John Locke believes in and promotes in all other areas rethink something like certificate of need and just think of it the exact opposite of what they're doing and apply that to every single area that we talk about the probably get you to the right place. Roy is you and I are talking about the new agenda document again. It's, the state is now reeling from hurricane Matthew in dealing with recovery efforts and rest right right efforts. One of the issues that has come up has been the fact that the state now has a pretty robust rainy day fund right reserve money For things like recovery efforts with Matthew and, interestingly, relates to some of the ideas and principles that are in the agenda document comes to being good fiscal stewards for the state, absolutely. That's something we've been pushing for quite a while.

We have a you on the one hand we promoted tax cuts and in the name of economic growth and that is happened.

We have seen very robust, especially relative to the rest of the country.

Economic growth over the last three years in North Carolina with that growth. We have generated some budget surpluses and while we've given some of those budget surpluses, not we the legislatures given some of those budget surpluses back to the taxpayer which I we do think is a way to go.

It's also said look, there's going to be recesses is going to be problems to be hurricanes.

We need to have a a strong a rainy day fund a day savings account could draw on when there so when their problems and we been beefing that up significantly.

Now also in agenda you are recommending some other things that could be done that would really help to spur more tax reform more hedonic growth. What does on the tax side, something that we talked about, especially recently, as the tax roof tax reform. 2013 has come into play if you start to look ahead. What more can be done will have the perfect taxes that we have a very good one. Both of we are arguing that we should be either reducing or eliminating tax on capital gains. For example, we should be changing the way we treat investments and capital equipment, allowing companies to write those investments off immediately rather than say over a five or 10 or 20 year.

In some cases, those are couple things on the regulatory side we think there's a ways to go on on on really reducing red tape.

It in the state, which is an important issue. We've done a lot of that again. We think that's the direction we can continue to moving were always looking at education reform.

Terry stoops has has all a number of chapters. I think 1/3 of the agendas devoted to education. But if you think about it very large proportion of our state budget is also divorce so it's is proportional and again there we can go further with with tuition scholarships promoting education choice in the state. So there's a number issues where we think there's room to to do better, but we also think that we have come a long way and it's all available for you in the new agenda document produced by the research team led by Dr. Roy Coronado here at the John Locke foundation, and it is talking with Dr. Voight this much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment.

Are you wondering where our country is headed. Well, so are two of our most revered presidents spend an evening with Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. That's right, Jefferson and Adams visit the Museum of history in Raleigh for a debate on the future of the United States, Jefferson and Adams think about national security, foreign engagement and the role of government on time is passed since they lead our country to be amazed the issues and challenges into work. It's a living history events during two incredible actors as Jefferson and Adams Monday evening October 24. Brought to you by the John Locke foundation find that's John Mark with an or call 866 JL FINFO Monday evening October 24 at the Museum of history and Raleigh tickets are $10 per person, five dollars for students Thomas Jefferson and John Adams live in Raleigh October 24.

Hope to see you there. Welcome back Carolina journal radio why Michiko got elections have consequences in the 2016 election will have plenty of our next guest has been spending time looking at potential legal and judicial implications of the 2016 election Doug Mondo is senior fellow at the Cato Institute, thanks for joining us to bill so obviously you have for many reasons. The 2016 election is going to be very pertinent even focusing on sort of the legal and judicial impacts that could come about because of 2061, focusing on particular offices of a major election for the Supreme Court, there's only the sclera vacancy because Republicans refused to confirm the president Obama's nominee Mary Garland so that when remains vacant. But also we have three justices who were at 78 or older and 78 is been the average retirement age so were looking at the potential of Justice Ginsburg Justice Breyer Justice Kennedy.

All are at the age where one can imagine them retiring. You could see the next president. How for Supreme Court nominations left almost half the court that will be extraordinary and some people listening who don't follow the court very closely might say, well, so what big deal. What happens when you have so many new faces on the court will be transformational in terms of the philosophy of the court of the reality as well. The court talks about the Constitution and in theory, these justices were not guided by political views. The reality is we have folks there who range from left to right in terms of how they view the Constitution, the kind of rulings, they would engage in delinquent sclera were talking about.

There's a major conservative school you someone who's kind of center right to Kennedy and to focus on the left.

Ginsburg, and Breyer.

You have an opportunity than the shift, the court pretty dramatically. Right now it's kind of a five for your sort of thing.

Kennedy shifts back and forth with you shift that by a couple of votes suddenly of a solid majority, one where the other.

That's a big difference change in the court while the two candidates who are battling it out to win the presidential race once will make this appointment, Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump.

We have much of a sense of what types of justices they would point we don't know for certain. Obviously, Hillary Clinton has supported Mary Garland the nominee of Pres. Obama.

In fact, he worked in the Clinton Justice Department she might resubmit him.

I suppose if she was elected president. I is no reason to think that she's uncomfortable with the kind of justices that both her husband and her Barack Obama nominated my guess is she would be fairly liberal and the people that you chose know the people chosen by Pres. Obama, Elaine Kagan, the Sonia Sotomayor both on the left of the court. They move the court and were left when direction I would assume that Hillary Clinton would do the same Donald Trump. It's a little harder to know how Trump has actually given a list of 11 potential nominees of these are people who are very well respected. If in fact he followed through on that list we be talking about the kind of appointments you would've expected out of abortion or Reagan. The could move the appointment, then the court to the right, we just don't know if he follow through.

I think the reasons to believe you wanted, but we don't know what Donald Trump would do. This is a unique candidate or unique candidacy is unique moment avoid making predictions.

There is pretty hard. We are chatting with Doug Mondo, senior fellow at the Cato Institute.

Once we see new faces on the court. What types of impact could they have on the way our government and our judicial process moves forward, where a couple things is not just Supreme Court is also the appellate courts, Supreme Court hears about 80 cases a year. The 13 districts. There are 13 circuits that is of appellate about 7000 cases total year and in most instances, then those opinions are final.

In reality, not your each circuit is technically final only for that particular circuit, but these are large chunks of America. So, if what you find is at the top. These 80 cases. A lot of those are fairly administrative or legal kinds of technical stuff sometimes unanimous. You're almost certainly going to 456 big ones, and it will be abortion will be healthcare at all. The religious liberty it will be about sort of a thing. Those could be transformational in those areas of law and once the Supreme Court is set, the ruling that it trickles down to the circuits right now. Nine of the 13 circuits are dominated by Democratic nominees at the end of another four years of a Democratic president almost certainly all of those would be no dominated by Democratic nominees. Now, if you have a Republican and you'd see a reversal of that in some number. Those are shift back and to be a much more balanced circuit.

So I think that gives the senses, not just Supreme Court with those big cases get decided it's the next level down with her so many that almost all decisions that go. There are final matters was on those courts as well. And if you have different philosophies approaching these cases. How does that lead to different types of rulings maybe maybe pick a favorite subject area and tells how they would rule differently. For example, the issue of say religious liberty coming to what extent you believe that people have a right to practice their religion, even if it means at some level. For example, in the gay marriage issues come up ill. I think the famous case it's the baker who says I don't want to bake a cake for your same-sex marriage because I don't believe in the sermon what's important here. If this is not an issue of discrimination against somebody because the day is simply saying I don't want to participate in something to me that's a fairly easy decision in terms of religious liberty. Whatever you think about same-sex marriage.

The point is, somebody should be groomed into having to support that. But that's one where you're very likely to find on the right and the left different opinions. What you find is people on the left tend to be more focused on what they perceive is discrimination.

They don't like it they may not even grant that to somebody because of religious reasons people on the right are much more likely to be focused on the importance religious liberty importance of hat you strengthening the First Amendment. That's a credit decision. One could see decided differently healthcare under Obama. It's been decided, but there could be other cases that come up know is there a constitutional justification for this legislation.

Conservatives generally said no liberal said yes Supreme Court by five for margin with the Chief Justice Norton Republican nominee kind of shifting said yes, then these are decisions of these decisions came up with a very different membership that you could go the different way you are affiliated with the libertarian Cato Institute. We know the one thing that libertarians of stressed about the courts is on the right side of the spectrum. The difference between those who are engaged wanted to and engaged judiciary and ones who want to defer to the elected branches of government.

We have a sense whether Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump have a preference where the other one Hillary Clinton clearly wants a more active kind of you and me. She certainly fits with traditional liberalism, which I think essentially courts are judges are allies of those who want expensive government that in the criminal law area. Some of the major put some barriers, but for the most part, the view was government should be allowed to expand. The irony is that in areas like this 1/4 amendment search and seizure know that the more liberal justice might say no here. We don't want the police doing that so they did step in. In other areas like healthcare, they see all the Congress is approved, we shouldn't step in the challenge on the right is you do have a breakdown between people talk about judicial restraint and people who try to take a different perspective. I think that it's it's very important difference in the judicial restraint crowd focuses simply on whether the legislature was involved in.

Not long legislature do what it wants. I don't really that's the Constitution says my view is restraint is simply a tool, it's a means to the end which is vindicating the Constitution, so some places. I think the Constitution is pretty clear.

I mean, the court shouldn't step in as a legislative decision you're allowed to go forward, but there are other places fourth amendment is a very good one of protecting us from unlawful searches. The only way you protect the constitutional amendments part of the Bill of Rights is for court to step in at some point say no you can't. The Constitution requires we do something different in there. I think who knows what Donald Trump thinks my my sense is that he has no judicial philosophy. I think that he recognizes this is an important issue for conservatives and probably would choose justices generally fit on the right person who will be watching very closely is that moves forward is dug by Ando Senior fellow at the Cato Institute, thanks much for joining absolutely a lot more on Carolina journal radio just are you wondering where our country is headed.

Well, so are two of our most revered presidents spend an evening with Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. That's right, Jefferson and Adams visit the Museum of history in Raleigh for a debate on the future of the United States by Jefferson and Adams think about national security, foreign engagement and the role of government. While time is passed since they lead our country to be amazed the issues and challenges into work.

It's a living history events during two incredible actors as Jefferson and Adams Monday evening October 24. Brought to you by the John Locke foundation find that's John Mark with an or call 866 JL FINFO Monday evening October 24 at the Museum of history and Raleigh tickets are $10 per person, five dollars for students Thomas Jefferson and John Adams live in Raleigh October 24. Hope to see you there. Government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business. How can you tell if government is doing a good job making the right choices.

Spending tax dollars wisely. Carolina tackles those questions every day. The John Locke foundation publishes Carolina journal in print each month and on the web each you'll find exclusive investigative reports on topics. No one else is covering what else a rundown of the best new stories, editorials and opinion columns in North Carolina. John Hood's daily Journal news stories and important public and the voices of the newsmakers themselves at Carolina journal radio in print on the air and on the web.

You can find the information you did you know you can now advance freedom and free markets just by shopping with Amazon it's true online shopping is now a great way to support the John Locke foundation just shot using the Amazon smile program and designate past the work foundation to receive a portion of your purchase amount that's right you shop and Amazon donates money to ask the John Locke foundation. So here's how it works long time to Amazon smile.

It's the same Amazon you know same products same prices is much better. Amazon donates .5% of the price of your eligible purchases to pass the John Locke foundation to try and be sure to designate the Locke foundation is a nonprofit, you want to support.

It's that easy. So now not only will you enjoy what you buy will also support freedom. Don't forget log on to today by something nice and help defend freedom, help support the John Locke foundation well Qubec Carolina journal radio I Michiko guy is the state auditor's office looks through government programs. It finds a number of common problems.

Auditor Beth Wood says one of those problems involves contract is really not a complete database for any of us to see totally what the state of North Carolina has total contracts there today database called open record book book and it is not complete and when information is put in there.

It's not kept up to date so there is just no one place that you can go to to see all the contracts the state of North Carolina is supposed to be administering. What also highlights the problem of management oversight of government programs that is probably as big and as bad as the contracting practices we just done a lot of small things that in every department there. Every agency there are departments and divisions, and programs and things running and nobody knows how well or not. How efficiently are not. They are running because they just met performance metrics. There's nothing out there and there's no but I go in an audit something find something that has not been done well for years. It's too late that so I don't know what kind of teeth. He put into making sure that management is doing their job with the proper policies and procedures and metrics and performance measures to make sure that everything that they are spending taxpayer dollars that is running like it should. How about government oversight of state and federal grants. They really don't do a great job monitoring the dollars that they send out an audit of the Department of commerce will identify that they're sending out this time the million dollars. Mrs. state monies that they were sending out they were not properly monitoring that the recipients of those dollars and what they were doing with them. So as an aside, that we so we must take one of the recipients and see what the money that was celebrated 80 million 60 million went to row center. We found row center was sending money to local governments for economic development and making sure that the jobs are being created or water sewer lines being put down space to spur economic development would also warrants about information technology projects. We did an audit in 2013 that looked at projects and on average they cost more than twice what the agency projected and they ran more than a year behind schedule.

The projects were about $356 million for those that we looked at over budget and it's getting the information into some system where there is approval process and get it into the system menu's and it gets approved yet nobody is really tracking to see is this project on schedule and isn't on budget. That's state auditor Beth Wood highlighting some of the common problems. Her auditors detect across state government will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment. Are you wondering where our country is headed. Well, so are two of our most revered presidents spend an evening with Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. That's right, Jefferson and Adams visit the Museum of history and Raleigh for a debate on the future of the United States, Jefferson and Adams think about national security, foreign engagement and the role of government. While time is passed since they lead our country to be amazing the issues and challenges into work. It's a living history events during two incredible actors as Jefferson and Adams Monday evening October 24. Brought to you by the John Mott foundation find that's John Mark with an or call 866 JL FINFO Monday evening October 24 at the Museum of history and Raleigh tickets are $10 per person, five dollars for students Thomas Jefferson and John Adams live in Raleigh October 24. Hope to see you there. Well, Qubec, Carolina journal radio I Michiko guy, University of North Carolina system is looking into ways to time more of its funding to performance measures, you would see is getting some help in that effort from people who've studied so-called performance-based funding among them. Matthew Polish, senior director of strategic research and education at the education advisory board pellets recently told UNC's board of governors that efforts to enact performance-based budgeting across the country have produced mixed results. Some key points that I think are very important one is the decrease in progress per FTE that we saw in studies that were done of systems and of institutions and implemented performance based on what is this mean this means that we have fewer pal recipients being admitted to performance based on campuses effort to somewhat game the system being a theory here that we would admit fewer low income students so that we can make sure that we were meeting the success in the completion goals and not taking the risk that might be associated with the recipient students increase in institutional. Granted, this could be better qualified as increasing merit aid to students and we are putting more aimed towards high quality students tracking this and try to get them in the door again using the finances. We have to get high quality students and make sure we meet the outcomes goals that we have against the performance. These would be negative impacts that would certainly be questioning some very hard to break out these numbers from the studies that we sing. Kelly says research also has shown some positive outcomes from performance-based funding we seen an increase in terms of student services expenditures taken money that have come from increases in performance funding or we have just tried to better improve our student outcomes or student quality, student life on campus because of the impact of outcomes plus. Again, this is where both front where are the funds going in this case from student service increases Somerset. I go toward student success initiatives advisors success coaches academic tutoring after the Council and other pieces, but very difficult to break out is also been the increase in overall instructional expenditures and reporting more money in the classroom more money into faculty into teaching and learning within the campus so to see that those are the positive outcomes No one should expect to move toward performance-based funding would produce major short-term benefits are what you're doing in terms of outcomes-based funding is not a quick fix major results that we see show that there is a long amount of time that it takes for there to be success in terms of degree completions outcomes for these models. If the goal is to change something for next year from space funding outcomes is likely not the right move is a long-term strategy for the institution or for the system to be thinking about from that perspective takes about seven years from the data set of institutions and states that have led to performance. Responding for there to actually be a change in terms of the four-year completions of decrease of seven your lifetime between implantation as well as the outcomes of the question here is is can we look at this as a long-term strategy and not as just a quick fix to think that the greatest quote I heard is that the cement is still wet and a lot of things were not quite sure what the outcomes will be were not exactly sure what the financial outcomes will be. But there is that we would like to pursue and continue the discussions and find what the right model different visuals. That's Matthew Polish of the education advisory board's presentation on performance-based funding, generated questions from the UNC Board of Governors Chip Mitchell wanted to know which programs of work. Can you pull together for us and give us your estimation based on what you have. Soon, of components of these programs that seem to be keys to success sing that the greatest influence and perhaps even more importantly, components that have either done no good or had a negative consequence. The trick is that you have to look at the different weighting of this that in total, it's hard to save it. One individual criteria led to success for the whole model linking it is the same thing that we look at from student success.

In general, and the country that institutions and systems of everybody focused on completion and retention of students will save implemented 10 2030 different changes on campus which one was effective in which one was not so hard to make that direct connection board member Joe not wanted to be sure that efforts to use performance-based funding in higher education would be different than those put in place in healthcare efficiencies have gone up Dr. spend less time with patients.

Prescriptions were written with less time, but there is no guarantee that the actual care delivered is better. It seems to me that education is even more of an individual relationship-based enterprise than medicine to control an institution by turning on and off the suspected based on arbitrarily set up or maybe not arbitrarily set based on criteria set by someone else is no guarantee in the long run, that the education delivered will actually be better outcomes of a student in college and university are very directly related to their interaction with faculty members experiences they have on campus that can't be quantified always in the same way that there are those hundred outcomes that are harder to track that we start to see those is when you look at these, formulas, and you track outcomes you think about where faculty spend their time and what they're doing and how to focus. There is the specialization of is the focus on say student success ministers. There are those who focus on advising her focus on career outcomes or focus on service learning beyond what faculty and we focus faculty time on teaching and learning in the classroom and researching those components that I think are most important to them so that rather than trying to dilute the faculty time with students importing semi different directions. You almost focus it in a lot of ways.

In areas where faculty should be focusing that lead to some of those that are outcomes student board member Madeleine Finnegan wanted to know whether certain types of campuses tend to benefit or struggle with performance-based funding you talked a little bit out that the winners and losers in and especially with Tennessee and I guess my question is there a pattern in who you see as winners or who wins is it typically maybe a flagship university or research focus University know is that unless the trichomonas you like to say that I've seen a very distinct pattern that allows me to say, well almost a flagship institutions where there is performance based funding in place of done better than the regional institutions or other serving surgeons not seen. Not exactly I didn't want here and there's a lot of media stories about Austin P State University in Tennessee some phenomenal work in terms of student success. Phenomenal work in terms of performance analytics for students to understand their degree programs are not the state budget regional public servant part of the system there that has performed better than almost every other institution may be of the outlier that sets apart from the rest of performance activities, the things they have done have been able to influence and even give guidance to other parts of the system for those institutional improvements that I've not seen, and neither have I seen a study showing there is one type of instrument is better than another board member Joan McNeil noted that other states have often adopted performance-based funding, then drop the idea within a few years. One thing that stood out to me was the need for a long-term commitment to actually have any idea whether this is going to be successful like to see success what they are and you and yet you had. You can even tell some states therein there out not really sure their halfway and what determines that will for the long term commitment and for moving toward success with such a model is it a political well I said is that the is that the complexity of the explaining. It is that administrative issues I don't know I I wish I could quote a great study or quote a great research piece that says here's how these types of systems have staying power and have conversationally anecdotally I think part of it is financially to this type of system that if this is something to be pursued. A large portion of the funds of base allocations are going to put up as a part of the performance of the outcomes-based funding system. I also think it's certainly a more personal leadership perspective. This is something that set out as the strategic initiative or strategic mission of the system or of institutions or of the state and its follow-through upon not wavered upon at different times you been listening to highlights from our recent discussion of performance-based funding for the University of North Carolina system will return with North Carolina journal radio in a moment. Are you wondering where our country is headed. Well, so are two of our most revered presidents spend an evening with Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. That's right, Jefferson and Adams visit the Museum of history in Raleigh for a debate on the future of the United States, Jefferson and Adams think about national security, foreign engagement and the role of government. While time is passed since they lead our country to be amazed the issues and challenges into work. It's a living history events during two incredible actors as Jefferson and Adams Monday evening October 24. Brought to you by the John Mott foundation find that's John Mark with an or call 866 JL FINFO Monday evening October 24 at the Museum of history and Raleigh tickets are $10 per person, five dollars for students Thomas Jefferson and John Adams live in Raleigh October 24.

Hope to see you there. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I'm Donna Martinez, the judge instructs the state of North Carolina to begin compensating landowners who were caught in the clutches of the fact and a rescue mission struggles with what to do next after being caught up in a local governments decision that will raise the cost of building housing for the poor. Both of these stories reported on by Barry Smith of Carolina journal. He joins us now with an update. Welcome back to the show you back.

You've been doing some excellent reporting. I really wanted to share a couple of the stories that folks can find a Carolina under your byline. Let's talk first about the latest in what's known as the math back was essentially a state law kind of found out people's land and property, but there was a big legal case and now it looks like the state is going to have to start paying people tell us about what the state law was enacted, especially in the late 80s so there's not really anything new. What is new is back this summer, the state Supreme Court ruled people's property is bound up under the map like the mouse pointer just a second. What it is. But if it's bound up the state DOT has to start paying just compensation is considered a taking of property for a highway. So what about that dozens if you have property that is located inside a core door for a highway, then the state has been able to go to your local county or city planners inspections Department and file that map and say you cannot do issued building permits for anything on that property. So basically that is kept people from using the property how they want. If they want our room renovations? Anytime you want to sell your property.

You gotta tell your purpose perspective buyer this record or that person's likely not going on by a lot of these people were angry about this. Understandably so. They were essentially unable to do anything with their property. They pursued and ended up signing and they warned the what the judge just very recently is this whole video to have to start paying these property owners secession giving death of individual property owners who were saying more money and the judges. Asher said within 90 days you have to start paying these people who first took the case of the Supreme Court have start making deposits you have to make offers them the folks who are the property owners are going to get about six months or so to review all offers may be good for all appraisals. If I don't think the DOT was fair and the whole process will go from there eventually could end up like any other case trial to see how much the property is worth. Interesting that these folks many of them have waited so long. This is a decade or so. These are more this group of people very particular area of the state there in several areas of the state.

The ones that are affected by this initial court ruling or in the Winston-Salem area and also there are handful of property owners in Greensboro. But there are other areas across the site. Also it also I have rolled them along Pender County there sometime in Cleveland County so there it affects probably 2 to 300 property owners affecting this lawsuit in the order that was just issued the first six pages listed the property of others interesting out does the map act, which is the law thing was in question here is it still active. Can North Carolina still impose this on what people got the legislature after the Supreme Court made its ruling the legislature this summer basically suspended the amount that for a year or not going to impose that on any other property owners of the ones that want to have the property tied up and basically they're looking to study the issue about over the next year and come back sometime next year for the general assembly of people basically tell me for all testing purposes. The malefactors that as far as future.

As far as the futures concert. Pretty interesting so you can read that story. The update on what's happening with the compensation process for these property talking with Barry Smith he's the reporter on the story at that very you also have been reporting on something going on in Durham County.

This involves the Durham rescue mission, which is a wonderful organization does great work to help people who are homeless or living on the margins help them get back on their feet that they found themselves in the political crosshair so to speak, of a local city council that he has tried to essentially tell them well were going to do some special in this area of Durham and it's going to mean at that time.

If you want to build housing for the poor. It's gonna cost a lot more money right Durham rescue mission all a lot of their property in Durham has been included in a story district so historic districts are when you build a house or when you renovate a house or do anything that has to go through another layer of bureaucracy.

Usually, if you want to do something you go to the town hall City Hall you get your permit. If it's within the zoning code you could build it is not within the zoning code you go asking and beg and plead for the planning board to change the zoning work to give you a fair variance well. In addition to all that which will still have to fill have to go through a historic district get approval from the historic district, and so historic district codes. Everything is coming out a mattress got a feeling so they say Durham rescue mission folks I can increase the cost of building a house, maybe from probably maybe not double it, but it significantly increased from 80 or $90 a square foot to maybe hundred and $2030 a square foot well.

Keep in mind this is an organization that gets no money from the government every every dollar it just comes from the from volunteer filed voluntary contributions and they will stretch the volunteer dollars is much as I can make sure I understand this.

It's worked out now that if they want to build something housing for the poor on land that they own.

Not only will they have to incur the normal costs in order to do that but because of the special rules and regulations that are now in place as a quote historic district they're going to have to make sure that materials are laid Irish man's bicycle. Is this gentrification thing we keep about the best part of it as part of the residents are hoping that the main thing the neighborhood the people who live around them, hoping to maintain the neighborhood. The course of their different studies and say that they thought districts have higher property values which would be harder for the poor, but some say well they actually stabilize the values also. But in any event, it it will cost the rescue mission more money. They wanted to build a community center layer that they say is out now and have about 15 vacant lots that are in the district and they're saying, what would gotta go back to the drawing board were used of helping the poor people out were not used to distort districts other than have to go back to the drawing board and figure out how the Barry did the Durham city Council realize what the consequences would be for the Durham rescue mission in the poor in that area they were. They knew what was going on but was section 43 so was very close vote, and there was a lot of you over an hours worth of public hearings, people talking about what's next for the rescue mission say they really don't know they're looking for an architect who knows how to build and historic districts to come and advise him.

I'm sure that the if you know something about the love your advice. Talking with Barry Smith he's a reporter with Carolina journal.

Thinking that's all the time. We have Carolina Journal radio this week. Thank you for listening behalf of my cousins Michelle, I'm Donna Martinez.

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