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Carolina Journal Radio No. 713: New governor creates new dynamic for legislative session

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
January 16, 2017 12:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 713: New governor creates new dynamic for legislative session

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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January 16, 2017 12:00 am

The N.C. General Assembly returns for its long legislative session with a new sparring partner in the governor’s mansion. Becki Gray, John Locke Foundation senior vice president, examines the potential impact of new Gov. Roy Cooper on the 2017 session. She also highlights lawmakers’ top priorities for the new year. Much of the current energy debate in North Carolina and across the country involves solar power, wind, and natural gas. Much less attention has been paid to the future of nuclear energy. David McNelis, director of the Center for Sustainable Energy, Environment, and Economic Development at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, says changing technology ensures that nuclear energy could play a key role in the future. North Carolina legislators have focused much time and energy on the state’s long-term transportation needs. During a recent legislative meeting, Alison Premo Black of the American Road and Transportation Builders Association told lawmakers the average North Carolinian spends much less on the state’s transportation infrastructure than on other basic needs. You’ll hear her comments, along with lawmakers’ reactions. North Carolina state government might have “too many chiefs and not enough Indians.” That’s the way one lawmaker summarized a recent report on the size and scope of government bureaucracy. The report suggested government has more supervisors and decision-making layers than it needs. You’ll learn details. The head of North Carolina’s Rules Review Commission would like to see a change that would ensure even more of the state’s rules face regular scrutiny. Carolina Journal Associate Editor Dan Way explains why the RRC chairman hopes state lawmakers will amend a rules review process to ensure all rules go under the microscope on a regular basis.

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From Cherokee to current attack from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Muskoka during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state. We hear a lot of debate about solar energy, wind energy, either natural gas, but what about nuclear energy, you would see expert says changing technology could make nuclear a key part of our energy future state taxpayers and drivers spend enough money on North Carolina's roads and highways. You hear highlights from our recent discussion of that topic say government might have too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

That's the way one lawmaker assessed a recent report on government bureaucracy. Plus, you learn why the head of the state rules review commission wants to put more state regulations under the microscope. Those topics are just ahead.

First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline there back the general assembly has met to officially organize for the new legislative session. The new class of lawmakers elected to office in November will gamble in for the business of policymaking later this month. They do so with the new governor, Democrat Roy Cooper is a new element in the political equation joining me to look at the legislative session is Becky Gracie. She is a senior vice president for the John Locke foundation. She spends a lot of time, the legislature, Becky welcome back to the program.

Thank you Gov. Roy Cooper recently kind of put out the gauntlet so to speak.

He made an announcement that he would like to expand Medicaid for Obama care. Well, Carolina done when you started the question I thought, you can refer to the HB two debacle we have faced today that Roy Cooper is coming out and really just sort of light down the gauntlet unit. What we are hearing and lease now is that he intends to expand Medicaid which is interesting because under the North Carolina Supreme Court of the United States Supreme Court under North Carolina law and under the North Carolina Constitution. He can't do that thing I was end of the story but it's not like political as you write and and will continue to be. He said during during his campaign that one of the things he would like to see done is to expand Medicaid. Certainly nothing wrong with putting that on the table with making that a point of discussion with the general assembly, but in a law that was passed in 2013. The Jones only made very clear that they were the only ones that could expand Medicaid think that what Cooper's going about this, and perhaps not the best way not the best way to make friends to work together on and then of course what's can happen in DC with the affordable care act. How that impacts Medicaid. We got lots of moving parts here and in order to get where we link where we need to be not only is the state but as a country we need to bomb half cooperation and collaboration, and a lot of conversation between the general assembly Gov. Cooper and then also to see what can happen out of the say so far were not saying this, but in its early and will certainly hope for that but this is laying some groundwork for the very important relationships that are going to occur between the governor and the general assembly and then of course the courts are involved in this as well, because as we already saying you know, lawsuits are flying left and right around here so it's gonna be. It's can be interesting. It's also very telling how this is getting started. And so far it doesn't look like everyone's going to be playing nicely together boy funds. Now you have created a document to you and your team at the John Locke foundation called the road to freedom Titanic pretty much lays out some of the principles and in different areas of public policy that you would like to see advanced that the Locke foundation would like to write advanced during the legislative session.

Do you think there's going to be in an overlap between John Locke foundation ideas and views for how to advance freedom with legislators who are in control absolutely ended there already is. There's been tremendous response to this patient and this is something this is not new ideas to the John Locke the things we talk about are just continuing the momentum that we've saying over 30 years of work at the John Locke and particularly last for five years with the with the general assembly in a governor that has been friendly to some of their ideas.

A plot foundation. So in short error recommendations is to continue along the road that we've gone with lower taxes, smarter budgeting, saving money, putting money aside for emergencies like we saw with the hurricane and flood the forest fires. I'm showing up our pension plan on making sure that teachers are paid well and that really good teachers have an opportunity to advance professionally and financially on that that student centered education is what we've certainly advocated for it and would like to see that continue on continued regulatory reform rolling back.

Many of the tens of thousands of rules and regulations taken a good close look at that. So we make sure that health and safety is protected but also that our regulations are not overly burdensome for North Carolinians for homeowners for business_our economy unit Donna the things that have been done over the last several years have really nagged North Carolina's economy. One of the strongest in the country and with that recovering economy, we see more jobs we see less dependence on government services.

We see businesses and entrepreneurs being able to flourish. We also see well skilled workers being developed. All of the things we want and what counted it and certainly indicative of a strong and recovering economy said that's really what we are recommending for the next Gen. assembly. Keep doing exactly what you been doing more on the right track were on the road to freedom and we just need to stay that path. Interestingly, though, over the past several years as those more freedom oriented reforms are taking place in the general assembly. You had a lot of folks on the progressive side of the policy and political spectrum who said the sky is falling those around me bad things for North Carolina. Do you expect that you're still going to hear that voice, and particularly now that there is a Democratic governor. Of course we are and you and this is where the politics tromped the policy nothing. It's unfortunate and we work in a think tank.

We think that those ideas are important since another recommendation that I've made to the general assembly is rather than focusing on the differences rather than finding ways to disagree. Let's get those common areas that we can look at in their many of them some of the issues that we working on at the John Locke foundation, a race the age that has to do with juvenile justice young people there that are in prison up as hardened criminals, but you know let's make sure that kids have. It would make a mistake that paid the price for that but also have an opportunity. Some of the other things occupational licensing is another one that there is wide agreement on we need to make sure that people can pursue jobs that they choose to be able to pursue the drains that they may have particularly lower income professions. Let's not put up barriers for people to have to do that. There's lots of areas for agreement. There's lots of good ideas out there and you were not the only ones with ideas and were certainly willing and want to talk to lots of people about different ideas and focus on those ideas. The ideas that move North Carolina follower rather than this better partisan bickering that we signed. We know that North Carolina is one of the fastest growing states and population right many many reasons people want is not just a BBQ that's right is as you have blogged it recently and it seems like younger people of the millennial generation. A lot of them moving here, because of the job opportunities in all sorts of innovative research into cultural lodging. We have here exactly the North Toronto Museum of Art for exams. A great one in Raleigh. Those folks seem very interested in the ideas that affected their opportunities. Things like occupational licensing like you mentioned door keeping more of what they earn. It seems like those millennial's would be on board with the ideas from the Locke foundation and many of them on the more that they can learn about you some an area that were doing some work on this really interesting and has wide appeal is the impact of craft breweries and how can we know that that took a growing industry in North Carolina. Lots of popularity for obvious reasons and but the real breeding ground for entrepreneurs and that's one that we've written about a lot of John Locke foundation appeal to lots of people, but particularly millennial's because they can really relate to that and it's a product that they enjoy as well, as do many of us guys. Yeah Becky if there was one particular issue or area of public policy that you would really like to see the legislature take a serious look at. I know in the road to freedom you have about a dozen issues that you are advancing, but what would you like them to really work on first if you had to drug. I think it really smart budgeting and where we spend our money and how we spend it is so important.

We talk a lot about taxes and that of course is barren but that's the revenue side of things. But where are we spending the money that we have are we getting the biggest bang for our buck. Are we getting quality programs are we making life better for and with Carolinians are we giving them more opportunities not taking those opportunities and freedoms away. By the way that we choose to spend our money are we expanding government are we making people more dependent on government or we opening up this opportunity so that people can provide for themselves they can make choices in their life the way that they want to they can truly be free.

Becky great's senior vice president with John foundation.

Thank you. Say with as much North Carolina journal radio than just a moment North Carolina lawmakers head back to Raleigh. There's a new governor in town working together or working against each other will make big decisions decisions that affect you, your wallet, your home, your business, your kids education to keep up with those big decisions day by day. Even minute by minute look to Carolina journal, a full team of reporters and analysts there watching the action in the state capital. The reporting minute by minute developments for you Carolina journal. It's available each month as a free newspaper and every day with updated find us on Facebook to share items from Carolina journal share items from the John Locke foundation. Follow us on Twitter at Carolina journal at John Locke in the sea and at Becky Gray Carolina journal it your go to source for news about state government and how government affects your life. Visit Carolina today. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Michiko got there's lots of discussion about the future of energy in America hear a lot about solar power, wind power, natural gas, replacing coal, but what about the future of nuclear energy. That was the topic of our next guest's recent presentation to the John Locke foundation's Shaftesbury society Dr. David McNeil us is director of the Center for sustainable energy, environment and economic development at UNC's Institute for the environment is also an adjunct professor of nuclear engineering at NC State likes joining us. Thank you so we really do not hear as much in the headlines these days about nuclear power but nuclear energy is a major portion of the way that we go about dealing with energy in the US is it is we had we had 104 reactors in United States.

It has been quiet because the, the prices of natural gas have caused concern in the nuclear industry be. The revenues are not what they used to be and so that's one driver another driver is there's new technology that's coming down small modular reactor. So there's a lot of emphasis worldwide on small modular reactors. By the way, 11% of the electricity in the world on this planet is from nuclear energy.

That's a lot in United States is running about 20%, North Carolina, about 36%. So we get a lot of electricity from nuclear energy. And here in North Carolina you're just saying much more than a worldwide and even the US.

That's correct.

Now, you mentioned that the technological changes are playing a role, is that the is a good development. Negative development or we hard to say at this point I would say tremendous, the, the small modular reactors are up to 300 MW, a large plant is a thousand or more megawatts so up to 300 MW. They can be used, they can use to provide power that can be used to provide heat for process heat and they can be used to desalinate or produce hydrogen. Whatever one would need in the developing world. They don't have grids that would take the big reactors like we have thousand megawatts would destroy them. But the smaller reactors would work.

Some of the benefits of the small modular reactors, and I'll be going into this today, but they can be built in a factory and assembled in a factory and so ends aware our big reactors have to be assembled online and they have to use forgings that come from Japan and you have to use pieces from all over the world and they have to be done on the seismic zone etc. with a small modular reactor should bill them in a factory hauled him a freight or barge to the site and set them up on site of the that's one advantage. The second advantage is that there suited many of them are suited to be placed underground, so you can put them down 100 feet or whatever and seal them up and there also design many of them being designed for 10 to 30 or 40 years on recycling of fuel so you don't have to do anything for them for that period of time when you would come back and replace the reactor so that's a another big point nonproliferation there's no one can get at anything in the reactor and from of fuel standpoint.

Many of the newer ones are going to be using a sodium or heavy metal coolant and those will actually burn up more the waste they can actually uses their fuel spent nuclear fuel they can use uranium out of the ground or they can use depleted uranium. So again the advantages are tremendous in their in their favor.

We are chatting with Dr. David McNeil us with the UNC and NC State. It sounds as also as if that in addition to the advantages being in your words tremendous. There's also a great deal more flexibility with these smaller reactors. If you can accept assembled in a factory more more opportunities to use them.

This sounds like it bodes well for the future nuclear it does on the other side there's about 60 large plants under construction in the world right now six in the United States for them are new plants.

Two of them are TVA plants that were started years ago and now are being completed, so the 16th construction United States 60 worldwide. We hear a lot about renewable energy and the interest in having more renewable energy, but when those discussions take place usually are talking about things like solar and wind power really serious about renewable energy. Should we be focusing in also on nuclear energy of its role. Nuclear energy should be considered vertically with performance standards, etc. they should be included in that because the that's part of what's driving the the revenues down in the nuclear plants and causing a problem if were using a lot of natural gas and that's what's picking up the slack. Natural gas is half as much CO2 emissions as coal so it's about half the same thing and it produces some methane. Methane is 21 times. This is noxious in the atmosphere as is CO2 and nuclear energy doesn't have any of those for it has none of it once once a plant is built, it doesn't have any, except for the security vehicles and generators, whatever that might have running around the plant I have to add this because there are a lot of people out there who hear nuclear energy and still think, oh, but are there problems could we have a meltdown.

What about 3 mile Island should we be concerned about the safety of nuclear energy. From my perspective know we we we should always be watchful. We should also be vigilant to see that everything is running okay in United States. Those things are being woke well protected at 3 mile Island. There have been no fatalities associated with 3 mile Island and the people in the vicinity got about 1 mg know if you get a chest x-ray. It's 10 or 11 mg.

So that puts it sort of an perspective on on what the damage their Chernobyl was a different thing Chernobyl was a consequence of bad bad operations. Bad management, bad everything and it was a plant.

The Russian plant, the RB, MK had no current containment vessel audit every plant United States and most everyone in the world has 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 feet thick of concrete around the rounded thing the Russians or the Soviets did not because they wanted to harvest plutonium while the reactor was running so they wanted to get in from the top and pull rods. As of now there are probably less than 100 people died of died as a result of Chernobyl but over over years up to 4000 more could be could be have the lifetime shortened because of that incident. Notice 1986, but as you are saying that's a much different situation than we have very American United States and specifically North Carolina and my knowledge there have been no fatalities associate with the with radiation at Fukushima in the brief time that we have left given where things stand with nuclear energy and what were hearing in the conversation about the future of energy is the outlook good for the future of nuclear energy. I think it's very good and then long-term look to fusion to come along. Finally, and it's going to take a couple you a couple of decades for them to get a plasma going in and I'll take another decade or two to get to get actual operation that it's a way off one person is going to be watching these developments very closely as they continue to happen is Dr. David McNeil us, director of the Center for sustainable energy, environment and economic development.

UNC's Institute for the environment. Also the edge of Prof. of nuclear engineering at NC State.

Thanks much for joining us will have more on Carolina journal radio at the John Locke foundation where leading the effort to clean up the mess left behind by big government liberals for decades.

The powerful left in our state had piled on rule after rule, regulation after regulation never really caring about the people whose lives are caught in the nightmare of complying. In other words, you their handiwork had made it tougher to get a job even increase the legal risk of operating a business.

We say enough is enough that it's just not fair to you. That's why reform minded lawmakers have turned to the Locke foundation for answers and they've acted to lighten your burden were proud that our intellectual firepower has improved lives. You can count on the John Locke foundation to watch out for your interests. The special interests. We would be honored to have your help in this fight.

John and make a tax-deductible donation. Right now the John Locke foundation were fighting for you were fighting for freedom government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business.

How can you tell if government is doing a good job making the right choices.

Spending tax dollars wisely. Carolina tackles those questions every day. The John Locke foundation publishes Carolina journal in print each month and on the web each you'll find exclusive investigative reports on topics. No one else is covering what else a rundown of the best new stories, editorials and opinion columns in North Carolina. John Hood's daily Journal news stories and important public and the voices of the newsmakers themselves at Carolina journal radio and print on the air and on the web. You can find the information you did you know you can now advance freedom and free markets just by shopping with Amazon it's true online shopping is now a great way to support the John Locke foundation just shot using the Amazon smile program and designate as the work foundation to receive a portion of your purchase amount that's right you shop and Amazon donates money to us. The John Locke foundation. So here's how it works. Log on to Amazon smile. It's the same Amazon you know same products same prices. Here's what's better. Amazon donates .5% of the price of your eligible purchases to pass the John Locke foundation to try to be sure to designate the Locke foundation is a nonprofit, you want to support. It's that easy. So now not only will you enjoy what you buy will also support freedom. Don't forget log on to today by something nice and help defend freedom.

Support the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina radio why Michiko got North Carolina lawmakers have focused a lot of attention on transportation spending.

Allison Primo black represents the American Road and transportation builders Association. She recently put that state transportation spending and perspective I think Americans understand how important their transportation network as but again they when we asked them how much they thought they paid for it. They really had no concept. The average when you look at what citizens in the state pay for motor fuel taxes, both state and federal, as well as registration, user fees and told four N. Carol people in north Carolina. It's about $39.21 a month and that's well below what people are paying for other necessities and utilities and things that they also consider essential to their what they do in their daily lives. Does that mean North Carolina should spend more state representative John Faircloth of Guilford County isn't so sure.

Seems there might be a little tricky situation.

For instance, we were runner policy with raise our expenditures by 30%. Jordan what might be do that will have more room water Road better transportation possibilities. Therefore, it's going to bring more trouble along the road, does not necessarily so because it depends on what so I'm not sure. I'm not sure that I have a real good grasp of the relationship of that $39 to Joe taxpayer is driving down the road building Association representative responded. If you make transportation improvement there could be some additional growth in travel freights on a network. It does depend where those investments are but I would argue that don't make the necessary investments.

Your just creating it's almost like an inefficiency tax on businesses and say you had an electrician who could get to five jobs today, but if they had a more reliable transportation system less congestion. Maybe they can get the six or seven job in a day. That type of thinking where that product productivity gains come in. That can really help spur growth representative Phil Sheppard of Onslow County put the transportation spending debate in perspective.

The problem for us is going to be the silver consumers of North Carolina.

We will raise their taxes or fees because that is another situation you been listening to highlights from a recent legislative discussion of North Carolina transportation spending more Carolina journal radio. If you love freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups all across the state. All in one place North Carolina one-stop shopping for North Carolina St. movement had North Carolina You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina reporting and quick takes Carolina radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analyst plus opinion pieces and reports on higher education.

All of that from the Pope Center for higher education policy commentary and polling data from the Cintas Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all of that, all in one place North Carolina that's North Carolina spelled out North Carolina

Log on today.

Welcome back Carolina journal radio why Michiko got his North Carolina state government have more supervisors than it needs a recent review from the Gen. assembly's program evaluation division suggests the answer might be yes report focused on spans of control, and organizational layers within state agencies researcher Brent Lucas reminded lawmakers about a 20-year-old guideline calls for state agencies to have a minimum of workers for every supervisor over 21 state government departments, although one have lower supervisor to employee ratios on average than the recommended statewide minimum of one to a we found that the ever span across forms of soil increase in the 1990s, from 5.4 nights 95 to 6.3 this year. This means that on average supervisors. They departments are overseeing about six positions, which is still below the recommended supervisors and small departments typically oversee fewer positions. Supervisors in medium or large departments. Lucas found only limited comparison data from other states, Texas requires agencies to have spans one supervisor 211 employees but cannot provide a rationale for this number. Ottawa has worked on spans of control layers in the early 1990s with her manager span ratio of 115 is only been met by 15% percent of departments in the state and Oregon agencies are spread some you span ratio of one 211 and departments not meeting the span ratio are prohibited from filling supervisory positions on this grant an exception. Beyond the supervisor to worker ratio. Lucas also looked at state agencies organizational layers state guidelines call for a maximum of seven layers between a line worker and the boss of the 21 departments to have more than the recommended maximum of seven organizational layers as additional lawyers told this was between front-line employees as leaders follow this distance, the more likely there could be issues of accountability or efficiencies similar to variations in spans of control across departments. There are variations in terms of the numbers of layers or of the medium and large departments are the ones exceeding the recommended maximum of seven layers more than 60% of all state positions are layers above the recommended seven where Lucas found that state agencies have a wide range of organizational layers in spans of control. These departments get little advice from either the office of state human resources or the office of State budget and management department leaders have broad discretion in determining how they want to structure their organizations, those p.m.or provide only hug artistry departments on spans of control layers.

These two interviews conducted number of activities somewhat related to spans layers, but none of these activities provide systematic guidance on spans layers for departments. Further, we found that neither OSPF nor Alyssa char required a promise to update and publish the high level organization towards online at the time of our study they departments have these high-level charts online. We also did upfront requirements for the parties to submit supervisory relationship changes in beacon in a timely manner.

Lastly, we found that neither OSPF nor Alyssa char required departments to monitor and regularly report on the spans layers.

The Gen. assembly should direct also chart smarter spans layers for departments and read those p.m. to establish benchmarks for spans layers report every five years to the Gen. assembly's daughter cut leaves the Gen. assembly's program evaluation division deported to some clear results from the study is no question that the spans are too narrow and there are too many levels are we forcing the appropriations committees and also spoke about personal research and no SVM can bore into this with greater depth factors. The agencies have not been required to justify this. It's not even been a question and this is just sort of evolved over time. So we were hindered by the lack of standards but totally were providing with this report is intended to be followed up on. We hope it will be, but that's you we look forward to having some interchange between departments with fiscal research and with Appropriations Committee murmurs and as I go into some lawmakers found the report disturbing Republican Sen. Tom McInnis is a simple response appears in my bicycling Mr. chief Bob of India Republican Sen. Stan Bingham latched onto one statistic that bothered 1/3 of all supervisors oversee three or fewer, you know that this postponed movie or just troublesome but in in your findings in the other states that you mentioned. Did they have the same problem with the two found that they had supervisors in 1/3 of their supervisors oversee all social small number of employees were more focused on the actual span of control ratio for say why, but we didn't see any evidence from what we were able to see those narrow spans another state, but it is a reduction in our own state since 1996 from 43% to 33%, so there is improvement still is 33% Bingham hopes other states could provide North Carolina some guidance sensors seems to be on a consistent problem or has been well I don't know. Your sister says you've identified the problem. We didn't really realize that it was a problem but have you heard of any other states that have run into something similar to this and made changes to her corrections to so other states do require I think it's state of Oregon. They have amended ratio for believe it's 115 and their course of action. You might say for achieving that span is not Alyssa not allowing through the appropriations process agencies to fill supervisor positions illustrated exception until it is 115 serving it on the a huge impact on expense of the study Sherry of the office of state human resources says change in job classifications should help address lawmakers concerns. Today we have about four 4400 classifications out there or reclassifying those jobs down to 1380 classifications are classifications are our broader skills are going to broader how this will help in the in the level of supervision and no classification system is popular promote somebody into the supervisor range to to get the more money even though there are good technical person. They also want to do is turn wrenches all day but to get the more money you sometimes make them up. Supervisor is one way it's done in our new classification and our new policies with her salary administration. A person can receive money for our promotion, not just from becoming a supervisors policy is more job enrichment and job growth and focuses on if the job the person is due doing if they're gaining more technical skills as a reason to give them more money if they're further away from the market compared to the to their mother.

Folks, that's the reason they might get more money if there's an equity within the in their department that might be a reason to get there more money so there's more reasons in our new classification compensation system to allow a person to receive more money than just the popular one in our old system of making them a supervisor. I believe most of our HR folks out there believe that as we implement the system and we would grow with the new system that that the span of control you have less people becoming supervisors in the span of control number will increase to a higher number you been listening to discussion of the new report that suggests is one State Sen. puts it, North Carolina state government agencies have too many chiefs and not enough Indians will return with more Carolina journal radio at the John Locke foundation where leading the effort to clean up the mess left behind by big government liberals for decades. The powerful left in our state had piled on rule after rule, regulation after regulation never really caring about the people whose lives are caught in the nightmare of complying. In other words, you their handiwork had made it tougher to get a job even increase the legal risk of operating a business.

We say enough is enough that it's just not fair to you. That's why reform minded lawmakers have turned to the Locke foundation for answers and acted to lighten your burden were proud that our intellectual firepower has improved lives. You can count on the John Locke foundation to watch out for your interests. The special interests. We would be honored to have your help in this fight. John and make a tax-deductible donation. Right now the John Locke foundation were fighting for you were fighting for freedom, welcome back to Carolina journal radio I'm Donna Martinez the state commission charged with scrutinizing the thousands of rules and regulations imposed on North Carolinians by state agencies. Once those agencies to be forced to take a closer look at what's actually on the books. Garth Dunklin recently appeared before a legislative committee and reported danwei from Carolina journal is following the story. Dan welcome back to the shelf thinking first probably say rules and regulations.

Some people's eyes kind of glaze over at that what we really talking about give us an example will. These are anything that could range from environmental roles with Department of environmental quality healthcare rules involving the whole plethora of medical field could be professional licensing board so if you are trying to get into any professional. There are rules and regulations. There conform to how and when you can get your license or facilities management sounds as if these are all sorts of things that might impact a business or it might impact an individual as well as all sorts of rules throughout state government that people know about until they actually get into doing some particular thing most this is the folks who found out lots of times agencies that impose rules don't know what they are either so part of the reason for this process and that's one of the interesting details that came out in your reporting on this whole review. Dennis is been going on now for what couple of years that the rules of been looked at right the review commission went to the legislature in 2012 and asked for a process to be implemented that would sunset all rules and regulations and this event was the concept some of the agency said will be overwhelming for us to have to look at all of our roles were 19,302 roles in the state code and there's another 5000 other agencies implement that are exempt from the process but what ended up happening was legislature yielded to the agencies and said okay will come up with this three bucket system: explain the three buckets. There are three areas in which the roles would fall under this review process one will be to keep them in place. Just where they are contention, bathed in the winds really complaining about themselves no sense to go through review process second, but it will be just to abolish them, eliminate them because they're no longer needed or outdated. Whatever. And then the third bucket would be formal review process in which the public comment public hearing. The whole idea here is to get agencies to pick up the roles look at them periodically, because as they found out oftentimes I would ask an agency head was this role for them scratch their heads and say well that's a good question. We don't know is just always been there and you're not kidding about that that's not how it's as Barber examiners board was one in which when they looked at their own roles just outright abolished half of them and put the other half up for review.

The formal process so in some instances, there were programs and been out of existence for 10 years or more will roles about still on the books is very confusing process and just a lot of burdensome extra things people would have to go through for no Jason. So Mr. Dunklin, the gentleman who was before the legislative committee recently that the gentleman that you are reporting on his kiss comments. He's been overseeing this but he's decided that this three bucket system that you described isn't good enough. Why not well. What they found out is pursued through this learning process for them what they've noted was 61% of all the roles that were being reviewed were being put in that bucket of ice cubes in the way they are not do anything less just keep them there is less work for us again that defeats the whole purpose of less pick these up. Let's look at the mercy of the still good and if they are still good.

Maybe there's things have happened over time that they need to be tweaked, updated or just made better.

Maybe you know through the process of time and experience I found out will this one doesn't really work so well. We can strengthen this or this one is too restrictive. Let's cut back on excellence is just a good idea to look at what you have on the books that regulate the public and businesses to make sure that things are best suited for best functioning and he feels like he's getting a little bit of pushback on on a real review or is it just the way that the system has set up now will will see what happens or could be some pushback, some of the agencies made complainant document go through the three bucket system and now you're making it easier for other time will tell on that some agencies have been very good about complying some of them have the industrial commission. For example, at one point was not covered under this roles review process legislature said will you have to start going through this, Mr. Dunklin said that they were excellent they got stakeholders involved. And when it came to the rules. The commission they already had things outlined were very cooperative and very cordial, very businesslike deliberations that help them to do their roles in the real businesslike fashion so everyone was well served as taxpayers would not be happy about that.

There was an organization. This commission that it was going along with this and say we need to take a look at these things out that that's a good news story for sure. Does Mr. Dunklin actually requesting some sort of change or help from the legislature in order to kinda hone in more have these agencies looks look certain things so that's what he was to do was eliminate that middle bucket where people can just say keep this says is off the table side.

Let's focus on these are the ones that 61% is just too much, too many rules are being kept intact with no review whatsoever. So that's what he's asking would more closely align with what the original request was to have a sunset. For every bill rather than bills to remain in place in perpetuity, without ever been looked at are re-examined and you listen to this hearing dancer based on the back-and-forth that that you heard was some of those legislators who are at this hearing did you get a sense that they were friendly to the idea of maybe eliminating that one bucket there's indications of some folks would be amenable to that some others might have more reservations but I think that is a good idea to solid in one will probably get a lot of traction how students are going to come up just because with the change of ministration is new department heads will be coming in new government have different ideas could be a lot of things interesting point within the new governor, Democrat Roy Cooper when he play any role or what the agencies said now that they some of them would have new people in charge and can they affect this process in any way they can affect the process as it is, because that's legislatively mandated rules. The commission members are appointed by the legislature so there say fermented governor changeover letter governor always wants to make his stamp on government and oftentimes I do that through the rulemaking process so new agency head could come and say we are like dailies roles will make our own and as long as they meet with you over clear and unambiguous statutory authority, the roles of the commission will have to prove them so there could be some changes but finally Dan, you mentioned that more than 19,000 rules are subject to this whole process. Are we actually getting rid of any of these rules is it substantial enough that we should feel like this is really worth it. So 19,302 rules about half of them have been looked at 5550 are going to be preserved as they are 1077 been removed and 2337 are being put through the formal adoption process. So the whole thing is working. Even though Mr. Dunklin does not want to see some changes will have you back to talk about this is, as we go forward. As they were more and more of all of these rules and regulations.

Dan way is a reporter for Carolina Journal as all the time we have for Carolina Journal radio this week.

Mitch okay I'm Donna Martinez.

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