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Carolina Journal Radio No. 741: Former ambassador’s daughter leads legal fight against Twitter

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
July 31, 2017 12:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 741: Former ambassador’s daughter leads legal fight against Twitter

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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July 31, 2017 12:00 am

The daughter of North Carolina-based former Ambassador Jim Cain serves as lead plaintiff in a lawsuit against Twitter. Cameron Cain and a co-plaintiff contend that the social media giant has not taken adequate stops to block ISIS from using Twitter to plan its terrorist attacks. Jon Guze, the John Locke Foundation’s director of legal studies, explores the legal implications of Cain v. Twitter. North Carolina lawmakers continue to debate whether and how to use targeted tax incentives to lure new jobs into the state. A recent N.C. House committee meeting featured debate about proposals to tweak incentives rules in ways that could favor poorer rural counties. You’ll hear highlights from supporters and opponents of targeted tax breaks. A political tug of war between the elected N.C. superintendent of public instruction and the appointed State Board of Education has reached the courtroom. You’ll hear both sides of the argument about who controls state education policy. Superintendent Mark Johnson won the first round in court, but the state board is appealing the ruling. Urban growth often leads to growing concerns about transportation and public transit. As the Triangle copes with these issues, retired Duke professor John Staddon has been studying how other communities have addressed transit concerns. Staddon shares his findings. He offers suggestions about how those other communities could influence decisions in Triangle cities and towns. Prospective owners are pushing competing plans to bring Major League Soccer to Charlotte or Raleigh. The Charlotte plan calls for taxpayers to foot the bill for most of the cost of a new stadium. Meanwhile, the Raleigh plan calls for private financing of a stadium that would sit on leased state government land. Julie Tisdale, the John Locke Foundation’s city and county policy analyst, contrasts the two proposals.

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Cherokee ticker attack from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio watch co-guy during the next hour, Donna Martin, is that I will explore some major issues affecting our state. North Carolina lawmakers still debate whether that how to use targeted tax incentives for economic development.

You'll hear highlights from a recent statehouse committee debate on the topic of political tug-of-war between the state school superintendent at the state Board of Education heads to court you'll hear key elements from both sides of the case. Growing urban areas often face public transportation challenges will chat with the Duke professor who hopes to apply lessons learned from the past to help the triangle address its current public transit needs and will explore competing proposals to bring a major league soccer team to Charlotte or Raleigh.

Those topics are just ahead.

First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline as social media platforms have grown into the powerhouse communication tools they are today, so have the questions about their legal liability for those who use them to incite violence or even incite terrorism and now I North Carolina connected legal battle is shining the light on Twitter John to say is the John Locke foundation's director of legal studies.

He's been following the case in writing about it. He joins us now John, welcome back. The case is Kane versus Twitter gives the details that case well. This involves two incidents in the well-known author, probably to all listeners back in not think it was 2015 cell of the terrorist group called Isys Islamic state lost a terrorist attack in Paris very well-publicized one was a killed supper like hundred 30 people.

One of those victims was an American citizen and her mother is Gonzales is one of the plaintiffs in this case a year later the same terrorist cell lost another attack this time and Belgium, and that when they killed 32 people and one of those was the husband of drunk. I made have a lady named Carmen came her father is known possibly to some blisters, Jim Kane. He was for a while.

I think he was the president of the Carolina hurricanes is a well-known Raleigh attorney and he was even for some period of time the our ambassador to Denmark John, what is the basis of the lawsuit that has been filed against Twitter.

There is a law in the United States. The antiterrorism act which makes it a crime to provide material assistance to terrorists that also provides a mechanism whereby American citizens can sue any individual organization that provides the kind of assistance of terrorists so Kevin Kane and Beatrice Gonzales are suing Twitter because they say and they provide quite a bit of evidence that Twitter allowed Isys to use Twitter as a recruiting tool and they also say that Isys terrorists have used twitter to coordinate their activities to inspire their various acts of terrorism and so on. So they say. This constitutes a form of material assistance to an act of terrorism and under that, on that basis are suing John do we have any sense of either legal precedent or perhaps a rulings in this set general social media arena that would give us any sort of insight as to whether or not the plaintiffs could prevail against Twitter. What we do and it's not good news for the plaintiff came the Twitter because of the US District Court for the Northern District of California a different group of plaintiffs sued Twitter on substantially the same argument that they were some relatives of US contractors who were killed during Isys attack Jordan and they sued Twitter making many of the same arguments.

The gist of which was that Twitter provided material assistance to Isys by allowing them to use it as a platform for recruitment and so on. When when that happened in that case, Twitter filed a motion to dismiss under a different federal law, the communications decency act, which provides a blocks very ability of citizens to sue platforms.

Communications platforms like Twitter for the content posted by their users and under that law. Twitter said were not liable, and the District Court agreed and they dismiss the case. So that's not a good precedent for this for the plaintiffs in KB, Twitter and taking matters worse, although the case was originally filed in the US District Court for the Southern District of New York Twitter filed a motion to transfer to the sun to the Northern District of California which is where the previous case was heard of that was granted so is going to the same court looking at this case is the one that is already dismissed a similar case can you you write some interesting things in your piece on this, which is available. Of and you said looking when I use social media they're able to figure out ads that are targeted to me. They can keep track of everywhere I've been on the Internet, Facebook, twitter, other things like this so is it reasonable for us to expect that Twitter in this case would be able to somehow screen out people who are terrorists.

I'm certainly not an expert on this kind of thing. In fact, I've never used twitter in my on my own behalf of only look at the tweet once or twice in my life, but as I said in the article of being it's clear that they are standing and moderate everything we do on all these media platforms and not only that they they used to take the position that we offer free speech, free expression were not going to do any censorship. I quoted one of the Twitter executives in my piece, saying when you're providing a free expression platform for hundreds of millions of people you have to take the good with the bad, and he also said something along the lines of one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, but they change their tune on this quite a bit and they really have had to because they have taken apart on their own would have to take it upon themselves to censor anything they consider politically incorrect.

We see many incidents of that of the last few years and it would be pretty hypocritical to say were the bad people for saying things that hurt people's feelings are that feminists don't like but were still there. Let people recruit terrorists and plantar terrorist operations is a platform so does seem as if they can, and let me just that one other thing they started boasting about the fact that they're taking down terrorist accounts that their blocking accounts by people they know to be terror so they can do it whether they could do more than they're doing at this point I really can't say, but it certainly seems reasonable to think they might be able to enter pretty serious question really I mean where is the legal line between protecting free speech, which in this country is fundamental to who we are and speech that incites violence well you know it's it it it is sometimes hard to draw the line but I don't think it's hard to draw a line in this case because terrorist acts are not just illegal under the antiterrorism act. There just is murder. You can't conspire to commit murder and if you can show that the Isys for example was using their speech on Twitter to do that. That's a crime. The real issue here isn't whether some speech is legal or not. This speech is definitely illegal. The only question is whether Twitter can and should do something to block it.

That's legal issue that the courts will get to. If that is to say the whole cases and simply dismissed over the communications decency act. In fact, what comes next. In this case, well that motions were filed and arguments are being heard.

I think just about now will probably know in the next few months with the court will do with it. If they dismiss it. Of course, and Cameron and Beatrice Gonzales can appeal it is not clear that the District Court that's hearing the case and heard the previous case has got that right. So they they may went on appeal, but there's still a lot of things that they'll have to overcome to win in the long run and down. I know that damn this is not a singular piece that you have written on this general topic you're actually doing a series on new media and new laws in this question of how the law catches up with technology is very interesting, but you up until now it's kind of been just something of academic interest and sometimes it's amusing but in this case there's nothing funny about it. What this looking into this right about brought home to me as we take terrorism for granted a lot now, but what happens to involve somebody locally somebody that we know personally or know something about it reminds us that there's been thousands of victims of terrorism since my 11 everyone of us got family members like Cameron Kane and Beatrice Gonzales. It's it's up continues to be a serious problem with everybody including social media is going to have to figure out what to do about John saying the John lock foundation's director of legal studies. You can read all of his thanks very much that you got to stay with us much more Carolina journaling in just a moment government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business. How can you tell if government is doing a good job making the right choices. Spending tax dollars wisely.

Carolina tackles those questions every day. The John Locke foundation publishes Carolina journal in print each month and on the web each you'll find exclusive investigative reports on topics. No one else is covering what else a rundown of the best new stories, editorials and opinion columns in North Carolina. John Hood's daily Journal news stories and important public and the voices of the newsmakers themselves. Carolina journal radio imprint on the air and on the web. You can find the information you welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Michiko guy state legislators continue their long-running debate about the use of economic development incentives Republican state representative Susan Martin recently brought the topic before her colleagues. North Carolina has one of the largest economies in the world where 24th in the world, so it takes 50,000 jobs to decrease unemployment by 1% on incentives which are talking about today are not going to resolve that issue for us, or grow our economy and not the answer and the town policy is needed and I'm proud of the work that we've done in recent years, we have a top rated business climate, very competitive, tax climate, legal and regulatory environment has improved. Investing in a skilled workforce infrastructure for our growing state and org organic growth in the free market will play the largest part in escrow in our economy. Many of us are not enthusiastic about incentives in theory and practice.

However, they are a current reality of competing globally and nationally. That's why Martin has been pushing new incentives legislation. It's designed to steer more state incentives toward smaller, poorer counties, dubbed tier 1 counties by state government. The idea raised questions Democrat Kelly Alexander represents part of Mecklenburg County, a larger, wealthier so-called tier 3 county you have with even though the Q3 years inner-city components that Christians have median incomes below County averages higher incidence of poverty. Some educational challenges you know that Parallel the criteria that you using in your tier 1 and in reviewing summary here.

I didn't see anything specifically that would benefit those impacted areas within tier 3, and I think we missed the boat. If we don't include something in the Christmas utility fund.

Some of these areas are suffering from aging infrastructure and because of that could benefit from funding through the utility of fun you know to help develop some jobsites. Republican John Socha of Cumberland County brought up a common issue in the incentives debate. Whenever you talk about tier systems, like the third rail when you touch it, you're in danger of being electrocuted because sometimes tier changes in your happy. Sometimes your tier changes for your county goes down your unhappy think well need to recognize that the tier system is very complex.

It's an imperfect system in somebody's always been very unhappy with whatever changes, if any, will be made on and I don't think there's anybody in complete agreement with the tier system or counties or rank right now, so recognizing that I think that we as legislators need to balance the overall good that this bill and this approach will be the state as opposed to what imperfections are in it and how it might affect us locally. Democrat Ken Goodman contends larger, wealthier counties have more resources to address their own needs.

These counties like like in Mecklenburg. Most of the benefits from these programs already and it seems to me that they counties themselves have some responsibility to develop these high poverty areas and that they can direct some of that economic development on their own that that that it would be easier for them to do that. I knew some of the benefits that they receive to look after their own low income and high poverty areas and and it and it is something that needs to be addressed, but I think these counties is tier 3 counties has responsibility there as well. Republican Scott Stone represents one of the wealthiest legislative districts in Charlotte. But he says that district has its own economic development challenges. My district was Valentine. We had, we are right next door to what would be the equivalent of tier 1 in South Carolina and they get a lot of opportunity lot investments in Lancaster County, South Carolina because they are right next door to South Charlotte and if you didn't have certain retention policies in place and retention incentives or you will see more more engrossing and you see people dropping just to get the incentive and get the benefit in those jobs go there, but those folks are still there, still driving through South Charlotte and their still user instructor this field are still prickly costing money for the people in Mecklenburg County. We are getting the benefit having those asthma can repeat County so I think the retention part is important. I heard that directly from some of the executives of some of the big companies Stone's comments prompted a response from Ashe County Republican Jeff Collins did point out a real danger and a reason why we want to continue down the path of tax reform and regulatory reform rather than incentives to draw businesses here because now businesses that have been here long time and are important to us have realized that were given away money to people who jump on over here across the border on our side from the other side and are now saying what about me and it sounds to me if we continue down the incentive path will have start off incentives to keep jobs rather than just get new jobs, which is why again and I think your bill starts to move us in that direction, but we need to get less and less and less dependent on incentives more and more and more dependent on our tax and regulatory policy in our general business climate in order to get businesses to come here Republican Bill probably question the idea of reducing incentives options in the wealthiest tier 3 counties.

Would that 800 job opportunity not be comparing tier 3 in North Carolina to a tier 1 in North Carolina, but tier 3 in North Carolina 28 tier 3 and George and is that where you lose the job we end up losing opportunities probably raised a larger issue. Starting with a description of Charlotte's built-in economic advantages. You've got an airport with 800 daily flights in my cumber County if you're close to that airport. You've got access to travel second that Raleigh-Durham Piedmont Triad little further down with all with all the hopes for global transport.

If you're in Kinston you're gonna have to go somewhere else to get most of those flights you got better rail you got better roads think you got this cultural thing now is a lot of art stuff in Mecklenburg County that I used to wonder why we keep talking about it and then I realized that a lot of the people with the corporations that are coming in care a lot about my opinion of that does not matter. That's what they want. That's what they want and they're going to go where they can get it and not go where they can so I think one of the things we keep leaving out of this is the question how do you sail tier 1.

In debate of an incentive is not enough. We need what we used to call in the sales game hunters people that are cold calling people that are prospecting people that are identifying where the attributes of a tier 1 County to what type of businesses will those attributes appeal and go after those companies and recruit them to North Carolina.

Jeff Collins, the Nash County Republican asked colleagues to look beyond incentives. We need to really start thinking way outside the box are county boundaries are based on populations in the 15 and 1600s and a lot of cases especially in eastern North Carolina and will have these problems long as we have the same hundred counties. We got in front of you all duplicate services 100 times when some areas where he got a million people in some areas where you get 10,000 people, so making sense and we need more. I'm not. If we don't if we don't change the counties not changing from hundred and 25 or 40. Whatever makes sense with Lisa need to borrow the county lines were talking about serves you been listening to highlights from a recent debate about targeted tax incentives like overture or Carolina journal radio among are you looking to make North Carolina more free the John Mott foundation is in here are three things you can do today to help us make it happen.

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Support the John Locke foundation with the back Carolina journal radio I Muskoka a power struggle over North Carolina's public schools has headed to court on one side the appointed state Board of Education. On the other side elected Superintendent of Public instruction they been feuding about a new state law. The shifts of power away from the appointed board and toward the elected superintendent for state Supreme Court Justice Bob Orr represents the Board of Education. He says history is on the board's side nearly hundred and 50 years. So for bursary.

The 1868 customization next year because the basic structure and administration public schools is has been in place. The state board has the express constitutional power minister supervised public education system is appropriated and make rules and regulations system legislation at issue in this tale still on this 149 year history of constitutional responsibilities should be declared unconstitutional or specifically opposes the new state law.

This legislation without specifically constitutional powers to administer and sleep school system and to transfer the regional powers to the superintendent in his official capacity. On the other side.

Attorney Hardy Lewis represents the state superintendent.

He says the 150-year-old state constitution tells a different story.

I think that the word to describe what is so it is easy to see this in both the way that Constitution has was written in 1860. Anyway this provides a authorizing provision for the state board said, but all rules and regulations of said board may be altered and amended by the Gen. assembly when so amended. You shall not, there is no framers of the people in 1868 was to make the general assembly of the supreme authority in setting policy for our children to public schools. You've heard opposing legal arguments put forward during a recent court fight it puts the state superintendent of public instruction against the state Board of Education at issue. Who has the power to set and carry out state education models will return with more Carolina journal. Are you tired of fake news. Well you won't find it here at Carolina journal. We don't make things happen and we don't presume or assign motives.

There's no simpler way to put it then that were proud to say that honest, factual, rigorous journalism is the Carolina journal way I reporting team is focused on accountability in government and policymaking.

No matter which political party is in power, and regardless of the person taken to task in the story, Carolina journal where the holding to the truth and to transparency. Unlike fake news lies, innuendo, questionable sourcing all meant to create controversy not inform the debate. So the next time you're confronted with fake news one onto Carolina or pick up the latest print edition you'll find compelling news reporting from a team that knows what it means to be real journalists committed to truth Carolina journal. You can count on us for the facts to back Carolina journal radio I Muskoka urban growth has its costs, along with its benefits among its impacts more traffic to situation the triangle will be forced to address our next guest is focused recently on how other communities have handled this topic. John Staten is an emeritus professor at Duke University walked back to the program time. This is something that obviously we have to travel on I 40 variety five in the triangle are noticing that there's more and more traffic and were growing and growing probably likely to see even more this so that prompted you to take a step back and say how is everyone else address this problem. Right. Well, sort of, I think II had a traumatic experience which I should've sought psychological guidance, namely driving in Atlanta, which was an extraordinary thing that you simply can't move the whole time. I complained to my friends than this. Is this Russia on those not the Russia solo time so obviously when you have a city designed like Atlanta or Washington DC, and so on.

This kind of thing is inevitable and so the question is what do you do about it. But the first thing is to recognize the problem first thing is to really reckon we are going to have gridlock without doing anything and so you're saying the first step. I guess like the first step of the alcoholic. Recognize you have a problem and then move up.

So if the so if we have a problem or an emerging problem with traffic in the triangle what you think we need to do well the first thing sausage recognize it but then the parts out of it are really not all that clear. I been the standard solution is some kind of rail all the big cities in Europe which of course are old to some extent New York but mostly in Europe they all have light rail systems, but all of the systems was started a time when there was no competition. So the London underground China talk about London underground was started when the only option was horse-drawn travel through very crowded streets of London so obviously it was a great business opportunity was started by private enterprise, funded privately can deal with underground cables and pipes and things like that so that made business sense now. However it's not so clear is not so clear their technical possibilities. Huber and Lifton Solana. Maybe the week we can advance a little bit with that but nobody really knows the thing about the rail possible, which is the issue in the triangle. The thing about the rail possibility is if you can do it now's the time to do it. That's the point to be cheaper in the that will be later this lot of talk on this. It's much more than that, about the importance of infrastructure so the reasons to do or shouldn't do it, do it now.

On the other hand, maybe we should just wait and seize up like Atlanta will maybe have flying cars. We are speaking with John Staten, Dr. John Staten is an emeritus professor at Duke University. This is one of those cases which, for those who are frequent listeners to this program. They've heard you on this show before and sometimes you put forward a view that maybe a little bit outside the mainstream.

Like talking about smoking in public health costs or how we deal with the traffic signals, that sort of thing when you took a look at this issue did you say to yourself, hey, everyone is talking about transit in these terms, when they should be looking at it this way, did you did you take a look at sick people were addressing the wrong way where I'd like to say that I had an enormous insight based on my first experiences from but I have to say the more I looked into it the more complicated thing to me it really I think depends on the will of the people in the sense that everybody feels well. The triangle is one unit we really want have an integrated system where willing to sign off on the necessary money to get started and some then it'll probably work if they don't feel that way. It's not going to work on. I'll talk a little bit about the Chapel Hill system which is a tiny little transit beginning doesn't connect with the airport, which is part one of the obvious places should connected because of the cost and so on. So maybe it will just go from step to step like that and everybody will wake up 10 years from now and in the massive gridlock and say well maybe something something or maybe they won't. Maybe some of the solution. Maybe everybody will go to downtown Durham Chapel Hill live in apartments. I mean who knows everything.

So I guess my simple answer is not simple, very complicated.

One of the other things that you reference. I'd like to turn back to is we've seen in recent years the development of things like Huber lift. There's also this discussion of introducing to a greater extent driverless cars which would offer another. We only have brainless politicians when it's right that's right to a brainless politician, a possible driverless cars with all of those options on the table. Do you think there will be enough support for adopting what is this basically 19th century technology or will more people safely just sit back and see what else happened.

Well that's good leverage. That's what I see is the current tension. The problem is that the cost and ease of doing light rail gets the cost goes up and he gets more more difficult time. So in a sense what it would take a bit of a gamble on maybe a lot of people will feel where we believe in driverless cars.

A rubric or computerized ridesharing or something of this sort.

Other problems with that. I mean Huber substitutes a private call for public car basically for your own personal job but is still one person per car that Flickr really changed kind of congestion and so maybe come up with some clever computerized system of minimum will reduce sick is not limited will reduce the number of journeys per day by no means is that you're taking a chance on that brunch okay the other brunch well. This can be expensive upfront time and there's no question that the light rail is expensive and it won't make money at first because of competition from Cosmos congestion gets worse. People will be driven into the mass transit not sorely help in some places like Seattle and one of the other things it's cropped up in the debate here in the triangle is some people saying okay maybe we should get more public transit. But why does it have to be trains. Why can't we get a better bus system that more people want to use that you have you been thinking about that. I mean, yeah, that's a very good question. Buses are in some ways more flexible in some ways less flexible and more flexible. You can change roots and so on. But the very fact of the nose predictable over the long term as a rail means that they won't act as a guide to residential location is on the weather rail system and they are. I suppose more subject to whether that kind of thing. I don't know that there is any city, and again this is something. People should spend more time studying. I don't know that it's any city which is really solved its transit problem solely by the aid of buses, light rail, by maintaining restricted path that only the rail train to go on its own seems to have some of the outages distance travel. If you want to have your reasonable distance stops more than 1/4 mile apart or something. Obviously light rail can do it in a way, the Wisconsin that's wonderful with very short time remaining. But if you had to put on your prediction hat do you think the triangle will end up with some sort of a rail system in the not-too-distant future. Yeah, I mean I think the Durham Chapel Hill thing probably will go ahead. People in this community seem to be in favor of it whether it will extend up in this very poor integration of the triangle as a whole. As you probably know one person is going to be watching this issue very closely is our guest John Staten is an emeritus professor at Duke University. Thanks much for doing little more on Carolina journal rate if you love freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups all across the state. All in one place North Carolina one-stop shopping for North Carolina's freedom movement North Carolina You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analyst plus opinion pieces and reports on higher education. All of that from the Pope Center for higher education policy commentary and polling data from the Cintas Institute news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all of that, all in one place North Carolina that's North Carolina spelled out North Carolina Log on today.

Welcome back to Carolina journal radio Donna Martinez will every major city wants a professionals's franchise or two or even three and out Charlotte and Raleigh are making bids for a major league soccer team last week. The head of the MLS visited North Carolina to explore the details of these two competing bids. One of those folks is following the effort is the John Mark foundations Julie Tisdale. She follows city and county government for the Locke foundation.

She's been taking a look at both of these bids is here to give us the details. Julie welcome back. First of all, give us a sense of the key players in these two competing bids to bids. One is in Charlotte on the key person there is Marcus Smith he's the son of Bruton Smith of NASCAR fame down several racetracks around the country Charlotte family and very well established in the sports entertainment business in Raleigh begot Steve Malik who is the owner of that Carolina was the Carolina rail box now North Carolina FC. I'm still a lot of experience here in Raleigh with soccer sort of one level below. Major league soccer. What is it specifically that you're focusing on as you follow these bids. There are every 12 bits across the country in major league soccer synergies to initially and further to what to this bids here are in North Carolina and Charlotte and Raleigh when I'm looking at is the financing of the stadium. In both cases.

Most of the other fees for joining and that something will be handled by the ownership graves key difference is how they can build a stadium major league soccer insists that you have a soccer specific stadium. So in both cases were talking about new construction stating about 20 22,000 people in Charlotte Marcus Smith came forward with this proposal that he would take to pay for half and then asked the city and the county to each take 1/4 hundred and 75 million for the stadium.

Overall, he said he'll do 87 1/2 and asking each of accounting the city to do 43.75 million so far. Do we know how the city or the county is responding to that request. We do live in a complex picture. The county initially got behind this supported it that it approved this whole scheme which is a 43.75.

In addition to that the County voted to loan on 75,000,002 Marcus Smith to be part of his 87 1/2 million that he would pay 70 Family Dollar plan be repaid over 25 years that's all the county they voted for that the city Council said there yet were not really ready to vote on this and so they shut it down. This was back in February. Think maybe a little later. That is January anyway this Cassini since that now. Now you can do as much is 30. The county is also saying well he's not sure we are so little mass in Charlotte right now and so that there are a lot of moving parts still, but that's how things it sounds like there is a lot of taxpayer involvement in their a lot of taxpayer involvement in any way you slice this were talking about at least half coming from the taxpayers and then on top of half coming from directly from the taxpayers. We got an addition of this loan that the taxpayers of the county would be making to the Smiths, so it is a lot of taxpayer money in that. Okay so that's what Charlotte is looking like that proposal. Now let's turn to the Raleigh package just Steve Malik at the head of that bid. Tell us about it. We know a lot less about what's happening in Raleigh and the reason we know a lot less is that from the beginning. Steve Malik has said this is to be a privately funded venture is privately have to reveal details and it doesn't have to be voted on. So we don't have nearly as much information.

We do know is that he's planning to build a stadium that would cost about hundred and 50 million, possibly some cost overruns that he's planning for some about hundred 50 million to build himself and finance, that with his his and personal assets in an with development partners. However, when MLS came to visit, we learned a little bit more detail.

We learned that we learn some more detail which included Malik's looking for some land that's currently owned by the state to be the site for this stadium.

Now that raises a lot of questions.

What gift it is again.

Diane is there some sort of lease agreement what's going on with that land. So, previously we thought we had a privately financed bed now. We got a mostly private with a substantial chunk of the public contribution of some sort so were still looking for some details there. Do we know yet and Julie that land that is owned by the same that Mr. Malik would like like to play set stadium on do we have any sort of numbers on it. We know what its value it seems to me like that would give us a good sense of how in taxpayers are on this whole thing right we don't know, or at least, I don't know.

I haven't read that figure anywhere we are talking about 13 acres in downtown Raleigh. That's I'm real estate it's valuable property. At the moment. There's not a whole lot on it.

There's some state government buildings is a big parking lot so it certainly can be put to better more productive use that get we don't have the numbers for the exact value of that property. Julie why are you so concerned about taxpayers being involved as I can tell you what you hear from supporters of these major league franchises in the stadiums all across the country, not just here in North Carolina they say look this is a quality-of-life issue.

This is going to attract tourism there's going to be economic development that follows the stadium and if a state or local government is involved.

Well it's worth it in the end that's their argument. That is the argument here that a lot.

If you look at the research about the actual economic impact that comes from having a major league sports franchise.

It's pretty minimal. There's not much evidence that actually has an impact at all positive or negative.

There might be a slight impact, actually, but it's pretty neutral for that is that bring new dollars to Raleigh I and you and most people I think prefixed recreation and entertainment budgets, and so I can spend is going to movies are going bowling or going out to a local restaurant where I can go buy tickets to a soccer game though I'm some money that's going to be generous of the spending that can happen in association with the stadium is already happening, just somewhere else listed this shift in how some dollars it's a shift so find team sure there might be some quality-of-life things going on there but look at the economic impact. It's really not very significant for cities what the next question then I think our listeners are probably thinking as well is it even possible to do a stadium without some sort of public involvement.

It is possible and is extremely, extremely rare on the truth is the example that we most often give about publicly are privately funded stadiums to some small bit of public input either a land contribution or their doing some infrastructure development or that something that usually happens, it is possible, and there are a few examples on, particularly with minor-league stadium and then completely privately that we have done so much of it. Now that owners groups have come to expect and so what does this mean now, particularly for the folks in Charlotte where they's there seem to be even bigger questions about the public involvement in this in taxpayer funds being at risk, etc. then in Raleigh. What can someone do they need to contact their local officials if they want to weigh in on any of this contacting local officials is is great. Certainly any sort of sale of land would require that it didn't. In the case of Raleigh state lands.

That's probably the Gen. assembly in Charlotte. It is city and county governments have contacting this people is is fantastic. The other thing though is that this is really in the hands of major league soccer at this point there touring the country that looking at 12 different bids and they'll be making a choice. Later in the year. Do we have any sense as to whether it's Charlotte or Raleigh or is our could actually be that somewhere across the country, another state gets the franchise. It's certainly very possible that another state can get the franchise, it's really hard to tell. And MLS is revealing very much right now so we don't know thinking of North Carolina.

It has, there's a possibility there was just too early to tell. Julie Tisdale has been following the story for silly. Thanks very much.

That's all the time we have for the program this week. Thanks for listening on behalf of Michiko Gion Donna Martinez hope you'll join us again next week or more, Carolina journal radio Carolina journal radio is a program of the John Locke learn more about the John Locke foundation donations that support programs like Carolina journal radio send email to development John Locke call 661665534637 journal radio airline is present on this program nearly show or other programs foundation is any airline sponsored Carolina radio again

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