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Carolina Journal Radio No. 756: Hometown debates highlight top education issues

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
November 13, 2017 12:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 756: Hometown debates highlight top education issues

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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November 13, 2017 12:00 am

Recent “Hometown Debates” sponsored by the Institute of Political Leadership in Rocky Mount, Burlington, and Newton highlighted key points of debate involving N.C. public education. Terry Stoops, the John Locke Foundation’s vice president for research, served as a panelist in each debate. He summarizes his arguments related to the state’s role in local school construction, school choice accountability, and teacher pay. The 17th-century English philosopher John Locke is known for his influence on the American Founders’ political principles. Duke University professor Michael Munger says Locke also could be dubbed the first “modern” economist. Munger points to a little-known 1695 Locke essay, Venditio, that points to some of the same economic concepts that Adam Smith popularized nearly 100 years later. Munger explains how Locke’s ideas help make sense of the problems associated today with laws targeting “price gouging.” As residents of southeastern North Carolina continue to worry about the long-term impacts of a chemical known as Gen X, which has been dumped into the Cape Fear River for decades, a new state legislative committee is studying broader issues linked to N.C. river water quality. You’ll hear what the group’s leaders hope to accomplish. You can’t get much further east in the United States than North Carolina. That’s not stopping online Western Governors University from setting up shop in the Tar Heel State. State officials and university leaders recently unveiled WGU North Carolina during a ceremony at the State Capitol. You’ll hear highlights from the event, including remarks from new Chancellor Catherine Truitt. Regulations are creating obstacles to innovation in the funeral industry. It’s the subject of Carolina Journal’s latest cover story. Editor-in-Chief Rick Henderson explains how government rules are blocking practitioners from meeting people’s changing needs.

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From Cherokee to current attack from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio artichoke during the next hour, Donna Martinez, I will explore some major issues affecting our state. We know the British philosopher John Locke influenced the American founders Duke University professor contends that Locke also could be dubbed the first modern economist learn why concerns about a chemical dubbed Jen X have prompted a new review of river water quality across North Carolina will have details. North Carolina is about as far east as you can get in the United States. Yet this state is now home to a new branch of online Western Governors University, University officials explain. Plus, you learn how government rules or blocking innovation in the funeral industry. Business owners are having a hard time reacting to customers changing preferences. Those topics are just ahead.

First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline there called hometown debates. It was a three event series designed to engage the public in a conversation about three key areas related to education in North Carolina. The series was sponsored by the North Carolina Institute for political leadership. Our next guest was a hometown debate panelist along with a number state legislators and other policy analysts held the differing views Dr. Terry stoops is vice president for research. Also, the director of education studies for the John Locke foundation Terry welcome back. You were at all three of these debates so you really got a sense I would think of of what the views are across the spectrum. In this state right yeah absolutely and such lively discussion and timely topics for us to tackle in this off election year and so I think this is kind of debates help to foster the kind of dialogue that we need about key issues in education, while key issues number one that we have seen, not really an interesting debate over the last several years about how we compensate teachers in North Carolina.

We know that there have been a series of pay raises for teachers bite down.

It was interesting that one of these debates focused on the issue of performance pay, merit pay, what is your view on well I think we should go full steam ahead and have some sort of differentiated pay.

Now there was certainly a lot of question among the panelists about what would be the best way of going about do that and doing Batson whether there are some ways that are better than others. One person the watch this debate called the most lively debate of the three and this was lively because people of course are interested in teacher compensation.

There a lot of worries that differentiating pay based on performance based on skills based on the subject that you teach might be controversial. Love might cause some teachers to leave the profession.

I think also what attracts him to the profession.

If we did it right, Terry. A lot of folks might be listening to us and if if they work to eat in a government situation outside the teaching world or in private enterprise. They might be thinking. Will G that's what happens every day. You know when you when you go to work on your working with people you're competing everybody gets different raises, presumably based on your performance.

Why with the education community believe that there's something troubling about that for the system will they believe that the competition is on unhealthy and one of the things that I objected to is the idea that teachers don't competes and teachers really do competes and they can still work together even though they're getting paid a different amount of money. Now if you look the way we pay teachers now based on a state salary schedule that is based on the number of years of experience in the credentials that you have that's really not an effective way to pay teachers because it doesn't recognize that some teachers do more work than others. Some teachers teach subjects that are harder to hire teachers about four and that there are some teachers that just outperform based on student test scores. Other teachers not building. I'm sure that was a lively debate because we know that this always really a Fosters a lot of discussion from across the spectrum, as do the issue of public charter schools and school choice in general and we know that to having a guest on the show are frequently talking about the growth of choice in North Carolina. It was interesting. I thought that one of the debates focused on whether or not the state should really kind of clampdown on oversight of public charter schools and private schools as well. Why is that an issue once an issue because many believe that there are the oversights that are in place are loose on on voucher recipient schools and charter schools, and the point that I tried to make throughout this debates in the and I don't know that the the opponents view those on the other side thought much of this argument, but the parents are the ultimate accountability mechanism. So in their mind the way that we need to keep them accountable was for them to take a test and then those test scores to be reported and for them. That is the only and the best way to keep these schools accountable for what they forget and what they often don't realize or appreciate is the fact that parents are in accountability mechanism as well.

The choice that they make the send state money to these schools to private schools or charter schools is a much more powerful way to keep the schools accountable because if you're not keeping these parents happy thoughts go to another school and the funding runs out. So that was the basis of the argument that I tried to make that we need to look beyond just test-based accountability and look at the ways of parents can be uses in accountability mechanism, especially in a state where a lot of people complain that we have too many tests would seem to me very logical to have parents be the accountability mechanism and not a state. I think I've heard you and I probably read some of your work on this where you put it sorted this way.

This is my paraphrase them that parents talk with their feet. They walk away if they don't like that the school option that they've chosen and so that in it, in and of itself is the accountability mechanism. That's right. And we should assume necessarily the parents are going to choose a school for one reason or another, a student may do terribly on a test at a school of choice, and that may be due to the fact that there are several grades behind where they were bullied at their old school. The assumption is always the parents want to move their children based on academic concerns but I think safety concerns of commuting concerns are just of as much of a valid reason to pursue a school choice then tests and student performance. And I think that that is so certainly something that was lost on the opponents in this debate as well. One of the points that you often make Terry that I think is really really important is that as school choice and grows and more parents choose options other than a traditional public school classroom and of course the majority of parents still choose that that that is downward pressure on the need to build schools in North Carolina and in fact one of the debate topics for the hometown debate series was the state's out role in financing, school construction, what's that the key issue there will the key issue is who should pay. There was agreements for from participants on both sides of the aisle that there are school construction needs that are not being met. The real issue is what role should the state have in providing for school facilities. Traditionally, it is a local issue, the County commission is charged with overseeing school facilities for the school districts that are in their County and they are the ones that are supposed to assume some debts for school facilities in order to build them and renovate them in the past, the state has taken some role that urban statewide bonds for school facilities.

There have been tax revenue that's been filtered from the state to the localities for school construction and of course now we have a lottery part of the lottery revenue goes to school construction. So the question is, should the state do more should we have more lottery money going for school facilities. How should we deal with the fact that there are some counties that just don't have the tax base to be able support large-scale debt for school construction and what role does estate plan that what your view. Well, I think that there is a role for the lottery here II think the lottery revenue is an original source of funding for school facilities. It's been that way since the start of lottery in 2006, so we should be mindful of making sure that as much lottery funding as possible goes to the school districts I think it's also important for school districts to look at ways they can partner with the private sector to be able to find proper public-private partnerships and cooperative enterprises to make school facilities better for students that may mean renting out space that may mean building new schools and may mean were of renovating the schools that exist. I don't think we do enough to engage with our private sector and see how they can become partners in the school construction enterprise. That's interesting because typically when you hear folks talk about.

We have a growing population with more kids are coming into school. We need more seats. The conclusion is the kind of prejudge that we must build something, but you're saying maybe rent it may be a lease it.

Look at some other options may be just below but more open-minded to them. I do absolutely yummy. Charter schools don't receive funds from the states and this is what they do they rent they bring in private sector to help them find the facilities that they need to say with this much more Carolina journal radio and in just a moment. Are you wondering where our country is headed while so are two of our most revered presidents spend an evening with Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. That's right, Jefferson and Adams visit the Museum of history in Raleigh for a debate on the future of the United States by Jefferson and Adams think about national security, foreign engagement and the role of government. While time is passed since they let our country the issues and challenges, endure its living history, living history events during two incredible actors Monday evening November 20. Brought to you by the organization dedicated to advancing freedom, the John Locke foundation find details@johnlocke.org that's John Locke with an E.org or call 866 JL FINFO Monday evening November 20 at the Museum of history and Raleigh tickets $10 per person but just five dollars for students Thomas Jefferson and John Adams live in Raleigh November 20.

Hope to see you there. Welcome back Carolina journal radio I Michiko got Carolina journal radio is a project of the John lock foundation. Who was this John Locke fellow 17th-century British philosopher major influence on the American founders and our next guest emphasizes another important aspect of John Locke Duke University Prof. Michael Monger recently addressed the John Locke foundation's presentation focused on the following question was John Locke the first modern economist, thanks for joining us it's a pleasure to be here in the qualified answers yes yes he was the first modern economist and 100 years before Adam Smith you take a look at this by examining a piece of John lock's writing. That's not one of the ones that even the Locke experts spent a lot of time on almost unknown and it was suggested to be by a friend who said you might want to look at this because she knew I was interested in the question of price gouging and whether prices were just, and she was absolutely right. The piece was called then video and it's available just was available just as a handwritten little piece of full scout was founded in 1691, and it still available and record distributed handwritten copies of the photo little photocopies of the handwritten version of it in my talk here at the Locke foundation four pages long and requesting that the entity opposes is is the market price just that is, are you justified in charging the market price would a good person, charge or buy at the market price, or should you do something else, walks, answers fascinating decision to ask what modern microeconomics took until the 1950 to more or less prove if there's many buyers and many sellers in the product is homogeneous.

Yes, the market price is always just.

The question is what happens when you don't have a well-developed market like that and then he adds to this only a four pages just in four pages had stood out an ethical theory that were kind of still wrestling with you, probably wrote it in some late afternoon when it's dark and rainy outside because he lived in England and this was what I was not thinking about how you should run the government and other think well on the side looks at it inventive modern economic about the nature of epistemology about the nature of contracts. He was really remarkable when you first came across this publication. After was recommended to you. What were you surprised that you never heard that. But Locke had had these insightful. I considered myself to be something of a scholar of Locke's anomaly was are surprised that I hadn't. I was convinced the this was something that the discipline needed for political science of economics needed so years ago I published from Oxford University press and anthology in PPE and we added, so now it's actually available in print thought many places it's available in print what the Oxford PPM biology contains the then video we are speaking with Prof. Michael Monger of Duke University on this question of whether John Locke was the first modern economist when you read this four-page piece doesn't capture things correctly or like in other areas of Locke's writing.

Are there some things that he doesn't quite get right to need a little bit more fleshing out well especially for pages, but to be fair and maybe there's an error. There's a bit of anachronism that is I'm using my knowledge of modern microeconomics to fill in the gaps between what he says but much of what he says about price is right for the reason that we need price and were talking about this in the literal shadow of the flooding in Texas and the light of heard the Texas Atty. Gen. saying that he's going to enforce anti-gouging laws will. The question is what is price actually do for us. Very few people are educated enough about economics on the goose is catastrophic. Few people know enough about economics to recognize how important prices. Locke clearly understood that he understood secondary markets. He understood the role of price in signaling where resources and assets should be set that's pretty amazing. John Locke wrote in the 17th century where in the 21st century.

Why is it the insights that he had that long ago are still up for debate now. And people don't get their controversial then I don't think you persuaded anyone and what I thought I find so fascinating about it is that the vindictive you actually contains four examples that he uses to illustrate his points, so it's really useful pedagogically subtly a theoretical piece, but it's a good thing for teaching as you asked these questions that he asks, and then use them for students discussion. I've often had people say after hearing this, I change my mind about price gouging loss. I understand why some people might favor them, but schedules are probably a bad idea.

Almost no one believes that we do a bad job at economic education in high school into college. If John Locke came up with these insights that long ago when did we really see other more known economics scholars come to the same conclusions or at least tackle the same issues. In some ways David Q did in the 18th century.

Certainly Smith did in the 18th century, but I would say Alfred Marshall in the very end of the 19th century was really the first to recognize the importance of the role of price and allocating resources, and since then, we tend to have problems with this theory of price because we think what's not fair what things aren't fair.

The question is, what's the best that we can do in difficult circumstances and price should work for us, not against us. You mentioned that this is a this piece, the spin video is very helpful, pedagogically in the classroom is that the type of thing that you'd like to see more economics instructors employee doesn't doesn't help. Does it help students actually have that moment, I think it does. I think it's something that's really appropriate for high school is actually available. A couple places online now so if you're interested in using it at a high school class or a college class. You just Google vindictive, you can easily find it online. It's easily available. I of course think that it's useful as part of the book that I published but I hope that people will. I've also tried to publish some explication some ways of teaching it so I'd be happy to try to share those nice thing about it is it doesn't really reach many conclusions itself opposes these questions and then students can explore what they think are the ethical and practical issues of trying to implement a system or reduced price to allocate resources tells that this is another way in which John lock can really prove valuable to people. Today he's we see them as valuable and in's sharing some of the ideas about freedom and limited government and the serving the governed is literal toleration is really the breadth of his interest is is amazing when you add this economic work in his work on money you could basically have a college curriculum. Just looking at Locke's work and its extension. When you do use this piece. You mentioned that there are some people who actually do change their minds about price gouging.

Do you hope that that continues to be true that other people will employ the same tool and tell people what you think about price gouging is what is actually so will is a bad thing.

Cutting people open with a short piece of metal is a bad thing, but if I have appendicitis, you may need to do it so high prices after an emergency or a way of signaling other people what we most need, so I'm not advocating price gouging.

What I'm saying is that allowing price to do its work can be of great help in an emergency, because the state is not very good at bringing these things in the author of that piece was vindictive EO the person who has helped bring it to light and expose it in a book and otherwise is due Prof. Michael Mann was a pleasure will have more on Carolina jewelry just are you wondering where our country is headed. Well, so are two of our most revered presidents spend an evening with Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. That's right, Jefferson and Adams visit the Museum of history in Raleigh for a debate on the future of the United States by Jefferson and Adams think about national security, foreign engagement and the role of government. While time is passed since they let our country the issues and challenges, endure its living history, living history events during two incredible actors Monday evening November 20. Brought to you by the organization dedicated to advancing freedom, the John Locke foundation find details@johnlocke.org that's John Locke with an E.org or call 866 JL FINFO Monday evening November 20 at the Museum of history in Raleigh tickets $10 per person but just five dollars for students Thomas Jefferson and John Adams live in Raleigh November 20. Hope to see you there. North Carolina is changing not just day-to-day but outward to our minute to minute and 2nd to 2nd, how can you keep up with the changes, especially the ones that affect you, your family, your home, your job, make the John lock foundation and Carolina journal part of your social media diet on Facebook like the John Locke foundation like Carolina. Journal follow us on Twitter at John Locke in C and at Carolina journal news, insights and analysis you'll find nowhere else. Thanks to the experts at the John Locke foundation and thanks to the first-class investigative reporting of Carolina journal. Don't wait for the morning newspaper. Don't wait for the evening news. It's happening now it's happening here the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal. Have you covered with up to the second information like us on Facebook the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal follow us on Twitter at John lock in C and at Carolina journal did you know you can now advance freedom and free markets just by shopping with Amazon it's true online shopping is now a great way to support the John Locke foundation just shot using the Amazon smile program and designate the work foundation to receive a portion of your purchase amount that's right you shop and Amazon donates money to us. The John Locke foundation. So here's how it works. Log on to smile.amazon.com Amazon smile. It's the same Amazon you know same products same prices is much better.

Amazon donates .5% of the price of your eligible purchases to pass the John Locke foundation to try to be sure to designate the Locke foundation is a nonprofit, you want to support. It's that easy. So now not only will you enjoy what you buy. You'll also support freedom. Don't forget log on to smile.amazon.com today by something nice and help defend freedom. Support the John Locke foundation will go back Carolina journal radio why Mitch Coke time people in southeastern North Carolina worry about the potential impact of Jen X. It's a chemical dumped for years into the Cape fear River may well state lawmakers from that area are looking into river water quality issues surrounding Gen X Republican Holly Grange represents part of New Hanover County. I'm happy to see so many people here that are willing to help provide us with information that we are seeking in order to not only solve the problem down in our area, but also to make sure that something like this does not happen again. This is the select committee on North Carolina River quality.

It's not the select committee on the Cape fear region River quality so we want we want to make sure that what we accomplish in this committee is going to 10 be applied throughout the entire state Republican fly. Kyler represents neighboring Brunswick County operating on Freud's on the great fear and maybe sure ignorance which I use a harsh term but for light, we need information more than anything else we need true information writers say would not have a scientific focus on the agenda as well as as others who have an interest in purifying a war and five-star saying around where I speak and I we have about hundred thousand plus users of the Cape fear River water in our County in Brunswick County aware of. Talk to people like to know what's in the water before goes in a set of afterward and but we also will operate from a position of not fearing what is not supposed to be feared that should we do fear what is what needs to be feared. Republican Ted Davis of New Hanover County explained what his legislative committee is designed to do. Were going to meet and do what we are chores to do that we need to get all the facts and all the information we can all receive to investigate and obtain as much information as possible to the current number one.

How do we get here is very important. You've got to know before you can do anything to solve the problem to find out what caused was happen through the years it has gotten us to where we are today and then how can we prevent this from happening in the future, which is been alluded to earlier bottom-line for the speaker as well as RC for this committee is to protect the people of not only the Cape fear River region but also all the other areas of the state from pollution and contamination has a negative impact on the quality of their drinking more goes off to that is extremely important issue that we need to address that state representative Ted Davis is one of the leaders of a new committee studying River water quality in North Carolina overture with more Carolina journal radio in a moment real influence. You either have it or you don't and at the John Locke foundation. We do, and that's not bluster in a private survey of more than 250 North Carolina political insiders 87% said we influence them either a great deal a good amount. So while others talk and complain. We get to work providing research solutions and help our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more. We look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control. Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse that is the envy of every other state.

Our research is actually help policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you earn.

Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities and improve your access to doctors.

The recipe for stability and a bright future. The John Locke foundation were dedicated to making North Carolina first in freedom were dedicated to you. Welcome back Carolina journal radio why Mitch Coke. I North Carolina is about as far east as you can get in the United States that isn't stopping the online Western Governors University from setting up shop here W GU unveiled its plans at a news conference at the state capital Pres. Scott Pulsifer explained how Western Governors differs from other universities are average age of our students is 37 years old. That's also true. Sure, North Carolina.

70% of our students also have families, children so you often see our graduates come and hear their children sitting in the audience and their seeing their parents receive their degree, whether they be a bachelors or Masters. These working adults are finding now the opportunity through the team of the credentials either advance the crew that they were on, or change your career, or even achieve their first time you see that kind of how we develop our programs. We designed our programs.

Also the start from the very simple fact that if education is the path the opportunity you need to make sure the programs that your offering are more linked that opportunity than not, so we designed our colleges around that we have four colleges our first college was in health professions are second, I wasn't teaching the course our first one was a business are second was teaching them added health professions altered by we only have 65 programs across Western Governors University doesn't mean that were not to have more just means that were very prudent about making sure that when we introduce new degree those degrees provide a very strong link and a path to opportunity in the workforce. You won't be surprised as well to learn that those programs that we offer have very high demand, Pulsifer says W GU already has served North Carolinians today North Carolina. We already have more than 1100 students in 89 counties across North Carolina. We also awarded just over 2000 degrees we have 2007 Safari been awarded to Northland that is actually broken down in this way cross health professions and nursing week of 640 graduates teachers 603 graduates college of business 508 graduates in the College of information technology. We have 248 graduates Lieut. Gov. Dan Forest is happy to see a new option for North Carolinians really is a stored in the problem but I think for North Carolina to see another opportunity for excellent education be inserted into our state are really in a new way in an innovative way. W GU is not coming in as a competitor to our university system are community college system is coming in as a partner in that system. A system of education that needs to meet the needs of all our citizens across North Carolina sounded innovative and unique way to reach into our communities and do just that.

So we should all be very proud of that fact. We should be proud that we are willing as a state to be in ruling his estate to kind of break the mold of education, the way we've seen that historically the great university system, and they meet they meet very specific needs and they do a fantastic job and W GU comes in and says you know what we see some other needs in the community that needs that need to be met and they have the tools and the resources the ability to be able to meet the Lou Ebert is president of the North Carolina chamber. He also joined in the celebration. Every day we go visit our members what's on their mind is of insatiable search for talent. So we've now come to a state where if you are seven years ago we were of the people without jobs now were in the mode of jobs without people so they have the Western Governors University show appear to be part of us helping to solve the skills gap comes at a wonderful time this is not hard to stay in America were the third fastest growing and we were in a freestanding economy. This be the 30th largest economy in the world so we might ask the Western Governors folks. What took you so long later.

Here you recognize North Carolina's estate of opportunity as to which Catherine Truitt was the top education advisor for former Republican Gov. Pat McCrory. She's taking on the job as the first Chancellor of Western Governors University North Carolina after 23 years in education. I still believe in the power of education to transform lives and to sustain our democracy in this country. Attainment of good education and still enable social mobility and success and is the key to achieving the American dream. I believe that everyone has a right to this opportunity, regardless of ZIP Code and this belief is permeated every decision I've ever made in my professional life.

For the first 12 years of my career I taught English to students all over the United States and in the UK as my family moved with military my student centered approach was considered different. At that time. So even then I was labeled a disruptive innovator, but my my efforts impact Alliance one student at a time. In 2012 I began working with a group called the international center for leadership in education and we help teachers and administrators turn troubled schools around like choosing a student centric approach to running a school rather than the typical adult centric approach and we help change schools.

One school time as the former governor's senior education visor. I have the opportunity to develop a deep understanding of our state's commitment to innovation and education. Truitt explain how Western Governors University fits into North Carolina's recent history of education innovation North Carolina was a forerunner in the establishment of high quality standards for early childhood education in just a few months ago, our legislators created number through third grade counsel that will examine those policies and practices that will make high-quality early childhood education possible for our younger citizens are six transition to digital age learning has laid the foundation for more personalized individual approach to K-12 education that is already producing incredible results in some of our most economically disadvantaged counties.

We have an early College high school in North Carolina that is the envy of other states allowing students across North Carolina to take community college classes while still in high school and graduated with an associate degree for free are North R&R North Carolina community college system is the third largest in the country and no one in North Carolina lives more than 30 minutes from the community college or satellite campus. These innovations are part of our state's larger efforts to transform education in North Carolina one system at a time and now we have W GU North Carolina Truitt explain why she supports Western Governors University's model.

The W GU model will allow more Carolinians to attain a degree because although everyone in North Carolina may live within 30 minutes of the community college. Many thousands do not live within 30 minutes of a four-year institution or how many live close to a school that cannot attend because of work or family demands WG North Carolina's unique model will allow the students to earn a degree at an affordable cost, which will transform families one family at a time. North Carolina has more troops stationed here than in any other state.

We will be able to help soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines and their families obtain a degree without leaving their base and this will be good for military and our economy. I wish that when I was a Navy spouse that I had the opportunity to go to W GU, but unfortunately we didn't have Internet in some WG usability to be simultaneously student centered and innovative will enhance our existing educational system in the state helping more North Carolina and more more North Carolinians achieve their dreams. That's Catherine Truitt and recently as the first Chancellor of Western Governors University North Carolina W GU and the state of North Carolina worked together to bring the online school to the state will return with more Carolina journal radio.

Are you wondering where our country is headed while so are two of our most revered presidents spend an evening with Thomas Jefferson and John Adams.

That's right, Jefferson and Adams visit the Museum of history in Raleigh for a debate on the future of the United States by Jefferson and Adams think about national security, foreign engagement and the role of government. While time is passed since they let our country the issues and challenges, endure its living history, living history events during two incredible actors Monday evening November 20. Brought to you by the organization dedicated to advancing freedom, the John Locke foundation find details@johnlocke.org that's John locked with an E.org or call 866 JL FINFO Monday evening November 20 at the Museum of history in Raleigh tickets $10 per person but just five dollars for students Thomas Jefferson and John Adams live in Raleigh November 20.

Hope to see you there. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio Donna Martinez is one of the most difficult things we ever do planning a funeral for someone we love yet gathering to remember the deceased is a cultural norm in the United States, which means we need a funeral industry that is growing to meet our demand as some experts fear that we could be facing a crisis. In this regard. They say that state and federal regulations are dissuading entrepreneurs from entering the funeral business is the cover story of the November issue of Carolina journal and editor-in-chief Rick Henderson is here with the preview Rick welcome back. Thank you, North Carolina what actually required if you want to operate as a funeral director or open a funeral.

A lot of training is something like two years of formal training plus a one-year effective apprenticeship as a funeral director.

There are fees involved that are required to pay to be paid plus continuing education requirements and that's all for jobs that average salaries of $50,000 a year so it's a long amount of training, certification and apprenticeship background checks all those sorts of things required for a job that really doesn't pay a whole lot would consider what your party get into it and that's not the only thing Emily start talking about estate state requirements and certainly in public health and public safety issues are at play there, but get this into building codes.

Let's say you become licensed debt you've entered into the industry then can you just go rent a building and open up know you have to have it to others through very strange building codes required to from funeral homes mortuaries all the way to the level of having a separate sewer system. If you will for disposing of your waist there even though your own municipal sewer system probably is as strict as it needs to be to handle a what will grow will be removed as waste were funeral and there are growing regulations of things like how you would dispose of the refuse there anyway you can't just take out and burn it here just dump it in the back and there are also some of the regulations required the safe disposal of the materials that are used there, but the funeral home.

Funeral parlors. Have you over and above that some people say that success is because very capital-intensive, so if you want to actually do this and you've got to be able to come up with either money on your own or find an investor licensing and becoming qualified to actually do this kind of IBC very specialized important work in our country that all these rules you have to me yeah that's why the.

The industry is largely a family history you quite often will see funeral homes mortuaries. It is been in the same family for generations and that's because it's very capital-intensive also is very much of a relationship based industries you would imagine. So in a lot of smaller towns to medium-size cities there at the funeral home with funeral director someone who's been in the community for a long long time is built trust of people, but is not the sort of business that then tends to attract a lot of outsiders. If you're dealing with such an intimate and personal business Rick in the cover story for the November issue of Carolina journal associate editor Lindsay Marcello writes them the story and she talked with an expert template on Wake Forest who is very concerned that the piling up of all of these regulations. All the state requirements.

We talked about plus a federal requirement on pricing. I believe that is mentioned yet is really reaching the point where it is just too much for people to get into the industry that I want to talk to a tiny marsh is a professor like Ford University who is the nation's experts on the funeral industry. The mortuary business and she notes that right now. Industry itself accounts for about $21 billion a year cross country that the average funeral if you're dealing with internment is about eight to $10,000 which is a lot of money.

If your insignia of the cremation route you're talking about maybe $1000-$2500 and more and more people rather than having the traditional funeral which you would have awake or receiving at the funeral home and then the service the next day in the formal burial are having memorial services at homes at civic clubs and churches and our for going that route and just simply having the remains cremated.

That's less expensive. Much less expensive to do so and so it up because otherwise it can become a burden on the family, especially if low income that changing norm more cremation sent has a business impact and that's another one of those reasons that to the professor who is the expert in the industry is saying that down there some really big business questions for the funeral industry that really need to be addressed in terms of trying to attract people into it right will be there. There are state laws. For instance the week we cite some of the distorted frictions and in Texas you cannot take involved remains across state lines.

There are dealing. There are rules and regulations have to deal with what you do with cremated remains for us there are issues with how what sort of sanitation levels do you have to maintain it and involving area. There are issues of what what you can do how gringos your casket have to be for instance all my they're living there is there is a growing industry valve say that you have to that you can't use the of the marble wall and chrome and steel caskets anymore. Now you have to have something this degradable over time it's it's gotten to the point now in which every imaginable interest group that could handle getting its fingers in the this industry has done so and so because of that a lot of the insiders in the street all competition and so they are wanting to keep those barriers in place so they can keep competitors out and so you actually have lawsuits filed by groups like the Institute for Justice that have challenged us state laws that required you to purchase your casket from the funeral home purchase from an outside vendor that way. A lot of people don't even know that that's possible to do this right is a cast from a store all your life you could buy casket Cosco for his lost days. But what you would do is then the that would be way for the funeral director to recur and recoup some of its higher regulatory costs that are that are out there that it has to cover that it might not be able to do through competitive marketplaces of offering services. It does, it captures that by charging more higher percentage of the cast was quick. All of these issues sound have not gone unnoticed by some members of North Carolina's Gen. assembly and they at one point during the last legislative session actually talked about trying to make some form some changes to laws about this with what there's there's a move to two take a new look at the regulatory structure involving funeral services entirely out Prof. Morse's winners start from scratch just get rid of all them with some sunset. And say what makes sense and what doesn't. For instance right now most mortuary services schools spend about half their time teaching people how to involve corpses will most courses are not involved now that rarely happens that you don't have to be involved in the argument courses will have to be involved to be buried so if there are regulatory requirements of increasing the cost of people getting into the business in something like 40% of the number of licensed funeral directors in North Carolina have been a loss of 2014. If that's what's going on. Surely there have to be some changes in the regulatory structure to keep this business a more vibrant and would be otherwise. Well, it's a really fascinating cover story. The November issue of Carolina journal Rick.

It's kind of an uncomfortable subject for a lot of people to talk about but so glad that Lindsay Marcello of Carolina journal really took a serious look at this issue of the funeral industry Carolina thank you Rick thank you that's all the time we have for Carolina journal radio this week listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch. Okay I'm Donna Martinez will join us again next week for more Carolina journal radio Carolina journal radio is a program of the John learn more about the John Locke foundation, including donations that support programs like Carolina journal radio send email to development John Locke call 1866 jail left info 166-553-4636 airline journal radio nation airline is maintaining all opinions expressed on this program nearly cremation about Michelle or other foundation.

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