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Carolina Journal Radio No. 764: Park master plan adds coda to Hammocks Beach property-rights fight

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
January 8, 2018 12:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 764: Park master plan adds coda to Hammocks Beach property-rights fight

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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January 8, 2018 12:00 am

Two years after the final resolution of a long-running court fight between a North Carolina family and state government over ownership of property near Hammocks Beach State Park, there’s a footnote: a new master plan for the park’s expansion. Carolina Journal Editor-in-Chief Rick Henderson reminds listeners about the newspaper’s role in bringing the story to light. He also discusses former Gov. Pat McCrory’s role in resolving the dispute to ensure the state paid the family for its property. Conservatives can feel marginalized on a college campus. That’s especially true for conservative women. But a group called the Network of Enlightened Women offers support for female college students with conservative views. During a break from a recent NEW event in Raleigh, program associate Vanessa Rivera discussed the group’s goals. The opioid crisis continues to plague North Carolina. Legislators had a chance recently to debate the latest statistics about opioid deaths. They also discussed the next steps designed to help fight the problem. As state lawmakers study possible changes to North Carolina’s formula for funding public schools, they heard advice recently from Michael Griffith. He’s senior school finance analyst for the Education Commission of the States. Griffith explained why many states have abandoned the type of funding system North Carolina uses. Most are now pursuing a funding model that ties money more directly to individual students’ education needs. We hear a lot about economic development. We ought to focus instead on economic growth. Roy Cordato, John Locke Foundation senior economist, explains the distinction between the two terms. Cordato also explains why government policies should focus more on growth than development.

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Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

From Cherokee to current attack and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio I Muskoka during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state conservatives can feel marginalized on college campuses, especially conservative women will hear from a group that works to address that problem.

The opioid epidemic continues to do its damage in North Carolina. You'll learn some of the startling statistics state lawmakers seeking to revamp North Carolina's school funding formula heard advice recently from a group called the education commission of the states to learn why. Most states have abandoned the type of funding formula, North Carolina still uses today and an economics expert explains why government policies should be focusing on economic growth, not economic development. Those topics are just ahead. But first, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline. The final footnote of decades long legal battles over coastal land adjacent to hammocks Beach State Park in Onslow County ended in December when the state released a master plan, expanding the park and this expansion comes two years after a family finally prevailed over the state of North Carolina for control of the land. Carolina has been following this story for more than five or six years, editor-in-chief Rick Anderson joins me now with an update. Rick welcome back.

Thank you this story written by Don Carrington who is been following Hammett's speech at story for number of years oversaw sound like a beautiful place. Lots of acreage and lots of things and beautiful state park.

Yes, this particular parcel 290 acres of a much much larger area of land and the land itself is on the intracoastal waterway is it was designed originally was.

It was a hunting and fishing property at first.

And since the 19 early 1950s.

It's been a bar resort and beach area and will get of the history got a little bit but over the years is falling to disrepair in part because there were questions about who would own the land and how it will be managed like and so finally that's been settled and I was out and settle but it looks like the states not only going to take it over.

Expand the park but Scott preserves a little resort areas that part as well. The history is really interesting. I'm I summarize it this way really a David and Goliath story here this this one family in North Carolina, literally having to fight the state of North Carolina, year after year after year going through court battles give us the background on how this all came to be that there was such a dispute over who owned this life will. This is one of these things that happened as a legacy of integration, which is a good thing that was maybe not as surly as good a thing for this families was concerned that the property itself was given to the grandparents of the two subjects of our stories John Turner and Harriet pursed her, both of whom inherited the property from their grandfather and grandmother who were caretakers of this land, Dr. Sharp, who was a very wealthy New York surgeon discovered this area focus in Onslow County back around about hundred years ago. He liked to hunt and fish. He came down there liked it so much he met the charters and bought several thousand acres to hunt for his hunting basement for duckhunting and he befriended the triggers and like them so much that he essentially hired them full-time to will be caretakers of land.

Keep it up into and then the the the hearse of grandparents served as cooks hunting guide things like that. When Dr. Sharp came down quite frequently and so they inherited the land from him, but they didn't want to believe necessarily what they want to do was they wanted to create a resort area for African-American teachers because the first grandmother was the teacher and there really working recreational facilities available for after meditation is that during that segregation time is real and North Carolina's right, so they didn't really have any facilities willing to go over. They had beaches with few changing houses and things like that and so they wanted to make this property a really nice, well appointed beach area and so they gave the did so, gave the land to the state association of black teachers essentially for that purpose will civil rights comes along. Segregation ends and also there's no more Association of black teachers and so there's no reason to have a beach property for that teachers Association which one ways that's with legal battle started because the family members then did they simply say, well, okay, since this black teachers organization doesn't exist anymore, and this was given to our family. We want our land right that that's kind of what happened there was a corporation of trust formed to maintain the beach at the time that the Dr. Sharp died and so there were joint interest between the Sharp heirs the her stairs and this particular organizational hammocks Beach Corporation. The idea was the Corporation would maintain the property as a beach as a resort, and if it couldn't then it would revert to the state of North Carolina. If the state wanted and if it wouldn't if the state didn't want it, the state would give it back to the sharps and hearse well sharps didn't want to. And so in 1987 because the cup because the trust was no longer able to maintain it, they, they had a few scout functions there and things like that really did get a lot of activity started to deteriorate quite a bit and so what happened then wasn't the person we would like to have the land back in the corporations and okay that it was a matter of a court proceeding is saying is, the state wanted. This is about 1987, and 30 years ago the states. It we don't want either you can have it. But then there became additional info about additional legal battles about how the transfers can take place. That went on for some time and this is the part that really is ahead scratcher for me Rick because Sam if the state says okay we don't want it in the family says okay we do. End of story.

One would think but but it didn't end for many many years. So what will the Corporation does the vesting the property was a bit of a problem that took a little while and then starting about 10 years ago. Then Gov. Mike Easley and fork and after that Gov. Beverly Purdue decided that they wanted to actually have this land incorporated as part of the hammocks Beach State Park. But they wanted to do so without paying the person anything for they sure to take the property away from them, which they said they had the right to do because they were worse they were sort of the own your own reforms resort if you will. If if the if you have the proper the property wasn't properly maintained that was litigated right litigated that this is the litigation took place, but on two separate occasions and 87.

Once again, as I mentioned before I get around 2007.

State Board of Education was given the opportunity to take over land and said no until the Easley and Purdue administrations using some attorneys from then Atty. Gen. Roy Cooper's office came in and said no we want the sled. After all, we don't pay anything for it. The person said, hey, wait a second strike the hard way out here that you want this land belongs to Christ. They hired Raleigh attorney Charles Francis recently ran for mayor of Raleigh by way of successfully they hired Charles Francis to represent them, saying the state had renounced the property twice and went to a jury in the one now tells about the role of former Gov. Pam Corian will the jury by one 2006 okay, but then should the Superior Court Judge Carl Fox know this is in the right outcome. So he overruled the jury he allowed the state actually sees the property and hearse continued their lawsuit in battle.

It looked like he was going to go to the state Supreme Court until the election of Gov. Pat McCrory whose officials started looking at the situation again.

Charles Francis and her stairs give Carolingian was reporting a lot of credit for actually laying out their story and saying this was an injustice that was about to be inflicted upon this family on foot through no fault of their own. And as McCrory's team said okay let's find somebody to help us by this land and pay you and they got the nature Conservancy's other groups in a $10.5 million for the for the land and now the states finally released a master plan for the park and part of that plan is going to include restoring some of those old beach buildings and things like that and retaining some of the history part.

Perhaps having an area that would be appropriate for walking tours to see what happened. For this when it was supposed to be a nice resort for black teachers.

This is just an amazing story about private property rights in the legal battle that this family hearse had to go through for year after year after year fighting the state of North Carolina.

Finally, during the McCrory years that they were able to take control of this and sell it back to the state they got their proceeds and now it's going to be this really amazing park. You can read the updated story on the hammocks Beach State Park and the legal battle of this family and Carolina Rick Henderson is editor-in-chief. Thank you for the update.

Thank you stay with us much more Carolina journal radio in just a moment government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business. How can you tell if government is doing a good job making the right choices. Spending tax dollars wisely. Carolina tackles those questions every day. The John Locke foundation publishes Carolina journal in print each month and on the web each you'll find exclusive investigative reports on topics.

No one else is covering what else a rundown of the best new stories, editorials and opinion columns in North Carolina. John Hood's daily Journal news stories and important public and the voices of the newsmakers themselves. Carolina journal radio in print on the air and on the web. You can find the information you welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Michiko got college students get exposed to a lot of ideas. Critics of the modern day college Essay. Most of those ideas leaned one way. Politically, our next guest works with a group that offers an alternative the group is the network of enlightened women. Vanessa Rivera's campus program associate for the network will to the program expansion tell us first of all, what is the network of enlightened women all about blouse out and women was actually found it about 13 years ago at the University of Virginia. I have found her.

Karen, Agnes, lips, she saw that the women's center at EVA was not very welcoming and to conservative women and with that she said on Wednesday that she decided to start a conservative women's book club from then 13 years later we have over 30 chapters across the United States, where we really paramount and intellectual diversity and help our members really grow in their conservative beliefs as well as get them connected professionally for life outside of the college round so the started really with the idea of helping conservative women on a campus that you send to multiple campuses. As you're talking with the students and getting these chapters going to see that there's a real need to do this out absolutely on now even trying to start chapters, schools are not very welcome to complete had multiple scores same to not allow this. Certain events that are chapters try to have our speakers. The dates fall through the registration office are you now, it's just not very timely Press tests and multiplying out just events where these students, these young conservative women are trying to get the word out about certain policies or maybe just a philanthropy event in chess because they think a little differently, and from there you know liberal associates that they are very much paralyzed and persecuted foreign campuses.

You mentioned that the started in Virginia there are multiple campuses what's the presence of the network. Like in North Carolina at the sow actually have a couple schools we had at UNC UNC Charlotte believe we also have one at Western Carolina University and no school is to get everything amazing, where care North Carolina and they are quite close knit while sister had here and they work together to get events and they support each other very much. What are some of the things you do. I believe this the started initially as a book club and then grew. What are some of the things it sounds like advance gatherings yes Sal and we encourage our student leaders to have speakers they can bring in multiple speakers friend like Katie H. Different conservative women in government when it air from Meno school board to a representative to speak about their careers, their lives as conservative women. What was it like to get to where you are.

A lot of students actually do act and as I'm on I was actually a leader and a chapter before I was hired by Neil. I started my own chapter in Florida golf test University and my senior year, so last year and we did activism on campus so we got a giant like eight or 9 foot beach ball on the day after on the presidential election and we had people come sign and write whatever they wanted on and we had on First Amendment handouts and we kind of seen or talked about how the First Amendment protects certain things and I thought it was very necessary to have the day after the election because I found that on such a liberal campus as Florida golf coast is you know and maybe nightstick and hear everybody's different opinions and things like that and I was actually shocked to see that they were more statements about love and acceptance on the beach pollen that you know some that like love trumps he now hate and things like appetite. There wasn't anything derogatory. We weren't treated badly and I think people were shocked weirdly enough that we support you no free speech and this is constitutional right, of course, route hearing, we want to hear your voice is on is by the First Amendment. So we really encourage our students to take a stance on their campuses for their beliefs and don't let them be silenced on a lot of our students like to p.m. op-ed writers and we've had people published on red alert politics and politico on one of our students and we call she's the president of Harvard was actually on Fox to talk about how bad the liberal bias is at Harvard University, so I'm just very busy yes we are very very very busy. We're speaking with Vanessa Rivera campus program associate for the network of enlightened women, are you hurt or use the acronym new new. You have a special program that's that's that's being launched, that has a hashtag for those who follow twitter hashtag she's conservative tells about that says she's conservative launched last year and it is the way we are trying to shatter and I've used kind of analogy that sometimes people think considering it. Members of our society like man that looked like the monopoly man right on Monica all the top hat and that is just not the case and that women can be conservative as well and that we come from all kinds of walks of life and ethnicities in different educations and different mangers and the one thing we all have in common is our conservative beliefs. So when our campaign. We've asked hundreds of students to submit their stories about why they are conservatives who their role models are and why it's so important to them to stay and be a conservative and speak out about their conservative beliefs. How does a group like the network, or new help these students deal with the pressure from peers on campus to either be quiet or change their views doesn't help to have something like this that says you're not alone. Other people think the same way.

Absolutely. And I now this from personal experience of having my table campuses and people being well lately and telling them whoever they were conservative to non-toxic and our professors greatest differently and flunk us if we don't and I don't believe the same things and having that network, and that support and you know everyone me lying on a different part of like a spectrum at the end of the day. We are holding intellectual conversation is not arguments made in their planning of chapters that welcome in. We welcome you know women and men from the liberal standpoint to coming in outlets having an educated discussion on some of our chapters actually like to have debates with opposing clubs, organizations, and it's so nice to start a conversation and that's all we really wanted to start a network of women who can host a conversation on their campuses where they can discuss things look at things from different points of view and tell their campuses.

We need to have a conversation I need to be one way or another you know most people won't ever be swayed from what they are thinking but let's have a useful conversation and let's talk about our time is running short.

But if someone's listening and they are not already aware of a network of enlightened women. Chapter wanted to find out more winter perhaps you start_help their child start again how they get more information on they can email me at or you can also apply to a chapter or look up that is our website and there's plenty of information that how you can get involved with our movement. Once again, that is, enlightened that is the voice of Vanessa Rivera campus program associate for the network which goes by the acronym run Carolina journal radio just if you love freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups all across the state. All in one place North Carolina one-stop shopping for North Carolina St. movement had North Carolina

You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina reporting and quick takes Carolina Journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analyst plus opinion pieces and reports on higher education. All of that from the Pope Center for higher education policy commentary and polling data from the Cintas Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all of that, all in one place North Carolina that's North Carolina spelled out North Carolina Log on today. North Carolina is changing not just day-to-day but outward to our minute to minute and 2nd to 2nd, you keep up with the changes, especially the ones that affect you, your family, your home, your job, make the John lot foundation and Carolina journal part of your social media diet on Facebook like the John Locke foundation like Carolina. Journal follow us on Twitter at John Locke in C and at Carolina journal news, insights and analysis you'll find nowhere else. Thanks to the experts at the John Locke foundation and thanks to the first-class investigative reporting of Carolina journal. Don't wait for the morning newspaper. Don't wait for the evening news if it's happening now it's happening here the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal. Have you covered with up to the second information like us on Facebook the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal follow us on Twitter at John Locke NC and at Carolina journal did you know you can now advance freedom and free markets just by shopping with Amazon it's true online shopping is now a great way to support the John Locke foundation just shot using the Amazon smile program and designate us the work foundation to receive a portion of your purchase amount that's right you shop and Amazon donates money to us. The John Locke foundation. So here's how it works.

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It's that easy. So now not only will you enjoy what you buy. You'll also support freedom. Don't forget log on to today by something nice and help defend freedom, help support the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina Journal radio why Mitch coca North Carolina lawmakers continue to focus on the state opioid epidemic section chief Susan can saw growth of the state division of Public health recently delivered some bad news. Three people on average are dying each day from opiate overdose, North Carolina, and Santa report that unforced lamina very soon have to change this line to four people a day because as we know steps are increasing and have been in the last several years. If we look across our state that counties in North Carolina.

We see that the death rate is correlated with where we have had historically higher rates of outpatient prescribing opioids. The death rate isn't the only side of North Carolina's problem. For every one of his death that we have in North Carolina. We had about three hospitalizations and not for emergency department visits and many more people reporting, misuse of prescription for pain relievers across her states and we know that when we talk about everyday staff. It's really just the tip of the iceberg that were saying if you look back in 1999 we had about 100 overdose deaths in North Carolina and now in 2016 we had about 1300 public and state representative Greg Murphy is a physician, he responded to. Could Saugus report. Actually the state of North Carolina in the nation as a whole since 2013 is actually produced decreased goods prescription which prescribing of opioids for about 15%.

Unfortunately, we've continued to see the rise and now number of overdose deaths related to prescribed opioids is actually leveled out were finding much more of the hero and people going directly to heroin. Murphy sees another major problem. Too many people saved from overdose deaths failed to follow up with drug treatment unless we get those folks in the treatment were not doing anything were just continuing to spin our wheels and that's one of our biggest challenges for our state for mental health system is broken and we have to give folks into substance abuse programs are for ever going to get a hold of this problem I see that is really being the crux of this entire epidemic were working on the prescribing part.

I think we made good headway on that report on the synthetic opioids and getting them to be illegal are law enforcement or doing a great job. But if we don't complete that course of doing folks into treatments enough to make any headway on this saga agreed.

Thank you for that comment and couldn't agree more. And I think of as you point out, I think, along with prevention. We have a whole generation of folks currently experiencing substance use disorders and I think how we move them into treatment and recovery for that population is important you been listening to highlights from a recent legislative briefing on North Carolina's opioid epidemic will return with more Carolina Journal radio and a moment really influence you either have it or you don't and at the John Locke foundation.

We do, and that's not bluster in a private survey of more than 250 North Carolina political insiders 87% said we influence them either a great deal a good amount. So while others talk and complain. We get to work providing research solutions and help our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more. We look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control. Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse that is the envy of every other state. Our research is actually help policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you earn. Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities and improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future. The John Locke foundation were dedicated to making North Carolina first in freedom were dedicated to you. Welcome back Carolina Journal radio why Mitch coca North Carolina lawmakers are thinking about changing the way the state funds public schools. They heard advice recently from Michael Griffith school finance strategist for a national group called the education commission of the states. We think of a high quality system we will look to is adequate and so when we say what we mean is it adequate to meet your strict standards for all of your students are a long time to get asked what is the adequate dollar model and it really depends on what your strict standards are and what your goals are and it changes from state to state. It also changes based on your cost of doing business in some places it's harder some places of slower so when you take a look at spending per pupil. You see, it's all over the shorter the range of this country going slow was about 7500 printer is high is about 17,000.

Some of that could be exploited by regional cost adjustment. The high responders time to be in the New England area in Alaska or Wyoming is the exception to that the low responders time to be in the westwards little cheaper, then we want to look at is the system equitable and we don't mean perfect equity artist running the exact same amount. Every school district. No one does. What are you relatively relatively equitable. Are you spending based on some sort of balance between your highest and lowest or highest and lowest compared to the middle. This your funding formula flexible work and will talk a lot about this with your formula, but the idea is state things work best when the state makes the decision.

Okay, so funds don't and how to spend those dollars are left to the school district that gives them greater flexibility to deal with a lot of new needs. New programs are out there nowadays education and buckets into the is it adaptable is your system able to change as were changing the way we educate kidsGriffith next turned to North Carolina and its position allocation system.

The state pays for a certain number of teaching jobs at other jobs based on student enrollment was originally done so policymakers could know what are they fine you could sit there and say we are spending this amount right on our state and we know we have this many teachers that were funding in this many superintendents and this money librarians in this many nurses on contract the you know what your purchasing system made an awful lot of sense when you had all of your students attending brick-and-mortar schools in their neighborhoods because you could track it could understand it. As you saw certain needs arise. Maybe social workers for instance are needed in school districts could add that to the formula, but again should be tracking it would be saying we know exactly how many social workers or alter so it's a very top-down decision-making process was not really the intention but it was what ended up with in these types of systems that the funding becomes richer and districts don't have a lot of decision-making is much as they would under some other funding formulas so what happens is if you say I don't need maybe one of these teaching positions. I need a library and assistant, and somebody to work in our lunch room to for security reasons, you can't necessarily do that under these types of form on so what that means is, the state has to constantly go back and adjust different line items within these formulas to take into account rising or lowering cost or changes the system has benefits but also problems.

I know you created greater flexibility within your system will very often when you create greater flexibility in a position allocation system, you're actually making it more complicated and less transparent in some ways and you're benefiting those schools that have very clever school business officials in your punishing those kids who are in the school district or school doesn't have someone who understands the formula as well.

Example I would use for something like this is when you have a position allocation funding system. Every once in a while you'll make changes to it every year or two. As time goes by.

Each one of those individual changes made sense, but it be like a home over a period of time Making changes to Unum one day you wake up in your home has 12 bedrooms one bathroom kitchen is in the backyard and there's a toilet in the living room.

Each one of those may have made sense, but now you have a structure that does not make sense.

Overall, you're not the only ones to come to this all states that have had a position allocation system have kind of gone through the same process.

That's Michael Griffith of the education commission of the states. He says North Carolina is one of only seven states that fund public schools based on positions or jobs. Most states use what's called a foundation funding formula start with the basic foundation about theoretically, this amount should be foundation formula.

The amount you need to get a general word. To state standards.

I will tell you there are only probably three states actually have the basic foundation about based on that.

The other 32 or so states having number that the legislature could afford and that given year's number so you know that that really knocks out sort of logic behind a lot of this is your base number is not based on something then sort of manipulating the whole system. The next thing you do is you do a student how and when we say weights.

That means if you feel that there's additional needs for certain kids like English language learners of special ed students at risk for poverty students provide them with an additional way. So a special ed student might count as one and 1/2 of language learner might count as one and 1/4 and multiply.

Although student counts by the foundation about and that get you to a total funding amount and then what you do is you. There are some things in this foundation formulas that you do not take. Usually that's transportation capital food services and these are dealt with outside of the primary funding formula. So why did so many states moved to this well it's relatively easy to establish again. You got a dollar more opportunity you can think about.

If you want to provide extra money for different groups of kids can do that through what I do remember additional weights in the student counts. It's very flexible. It's easy to adjust to the states and districts new source suddenly come up with an idea of the stool and concurrent enrollment work it's going to college credit.

You simply say, okay, now you can spend your foundation allowance on that you can choose to do that. Maybe instead of teaching math course in your school you can contract with the community college and you can use your funds for that student.

For that course.

Consider course inside the K-12 school provides districts with greater autonomy in decision-making urged caution. If lawmakers change the funding formula but maintain state control.

I would say though, if your document formula and you put a lot all controlling things you have in your current formula to publish it worth your transition probably is worth the time and effort you end up simply coming up with the new way to slice the pie and everybody gets the exact same slice on. I don't know what the game's response a lot of political capital and energy on something that will make actual changes done you'd want to look at this and make this transition, you think you could do it to make your system provided with greater freedom, greater adaptability to a lot of things are going on nowadays on that can't be done, then maybe step back and wait a couple more unwanted subscription. I've seen some states make this transition and everybody again like in Rhode Island gets the same amount that they would've under the old formula. I just don't know what that get you bragging rights for a couple years with us and we got a new form and then that events on the reality that's Michael Griffith of the education commission of the states he's offering North Carolina lawmakers advice about school funding will perturb more Carolina radio in a moment.

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Read the monthly print edition of Carolina journal. Then check in several times a day, Carolina that's where you'll find fresh stories, opinion pieces and updates on government politics and your money. Carolina journal. We hold government accountable to you. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I'm Donna Martinez. We hear these two terms a lot on the one hand, economic growth, on the other hand, economic development, some people think that both of these terms mean exactly the same thing the John Locke foundation's Dr. Roy Coronado says they couldn't be more different.

He's here to explain why and why it's so important. If course is a senior economist for the John Mark foundation right. Welcome back to the shelf good to be back on. Let's start first with economic development because there are many many localities. The city's counties to have people that they've hired to be economic development specialist. So what does that really mean well. Economic development usually focuses on trying to track certain businesses to a specific location to affect a particular outcome like getting a business to, or expanding one industry or another.

Improving things in a particular region or with a particular group of people so economic develop policies tend to be very targeted and usually basket of goodies involved little or no no I say targeted.

I mean, it's usually instead you think you incentives, tax breaks, direct subsidies, regulatory breaks, zoning law changes all specifically meant to affect the particular outcome. Now, on the other hand, what does it mean if someone says that they want economic growth. Growth is something quite different economic growth typically deals with increases in statewide GDP for talking about the state gross gross domestic product expansion of of output and got job growth sort of across the economy. Not for a particular business or particular concern or particular region, and typically also it doesn't involve infected. The opposite doesn't involve targeted tax breaks or targeted regulatory breaks or whatever the policy approach is usually very broad applying to everyone right tax breaks for all individuals and businesses across the board regulatory breaks across the board for bigger companies and smaller companies not targeted, but for the an equal opportunity approach with respect to entrepreneurs and worship right when you wrote about this and I you can read Roy's piece on This is really fascinating in your piece because you said not only is there a difference between these two in terms of economics, but you made a very good case that there is also a difference in and simply philosophy and right mindset of how people view government explained yet. There's people who who spouse really are concerned about economic growth. See the really except Adam Smith's point of view that if you get government out of the way in terms of lower taxes, less regulation way of of entrepreneurs, the economy will perform as good as it can. That's the and and you will get growth and and and and job creation. Someone on the other hand, people who are tend to favor economic development do not trust markets. They their view is that we think there should be a specific outcome in the market is not producing that outcome.

Therefore, we need to redirect resources through the government to achieve that outcome to nudge the economy in a particular direction as a centerpiece. It really is view that at least at some margins. Government does indeed know best with respect to how market outlook market resources should be allocated. Another thing I think is really interesting Roy that time you make the point that some people who favor economic development will say looking a week. We've tried that free market thing and it's really not interested that the market does not provide for people.

It doesn't care for society for the so-called common good. We hear that phrase used a lot when you reaction to that well.

Typically what they are saying is it's not giving us the outcomes that we think it should give us right in other words it said well you know if the market was doing the right thing. This company would be locating in Kinston or whatever. Okay, why do we we think it should bed that it would be an efficient allocation good allocation of resources for that to happen, but it's not. So therefore we have to nudge that company through to do it. But the point is is that they're second-guessing the market is probably a very good reason why a company is a locating in one place or another, or not coming to the state and very well might have to do with the fact that the people favor economic growth. Their policies are the are not being implemented, that regulation might be to I taxes might be too high, and so on.

So I think what they're really saying is that the outcomes that we as bureaucrats think should occur. The market is not producing which is not the same as the market is not producing what's best for society. Roy, what is it going to take for for people who are in positions of policymaking to understand that argument, and to be able to realize that sometimes what you what you think is the right thing just simply isn't the way the market is going to work when I think I was going to take is a better understanding on our part. Our meeting those of us who advocate for the free market and believe that the free market and an Smith's invisible hand is the best way to go for making society better off. It takes a I think of a better understanding on our part and a better better communication on our part. Look this a lot of economic develop is wrapped up in special interests and cronies will use these terms but a lot of it is just the fact that the people that 54 really don't believe that that they believe that the visible hand is better than the invisible okay and so we have to understand our arguments.

I think better and we have to be able to communicate them in a way that a skeptical public is going to buy it, which is not not an easy task now and in fact that we's we go through this this debate at the Gen. assembly. Pretty much every session there every things he says incentives and incentives and for different industries and in the different regions and it's it's always a case solar and wind subsidies to whatever the case may be unified over Amazon right now as part of this this view that the free market is in a work for the betterment of North Carolina we have to give you lots of money to Amazon to locate. In fact, that we we also hear a lot about the rural urban divide in this this conversation couple we must somehow subsidize or instant companies to come to areas of the state that are not enjoying the economic growth that the metro area so that as part of the whole story. So what do we say back to a lawmaker who says looking I need jobs in my community and the market just isn't doing well. I think some of it might do. I think this couple answer some of look I might not be what they want to hear. I mean there just might be that Particular location. For whatever reason, it is not is not right for all. A lot of the industry, but also that I think if they need to look at the education systems the workforce that's being provided in those areas appropriate to the kinds of industries that are out there looking for looking for places to locate is that it how are the roads okay what's the infrastructure like after Roy Coronado Senior economist for Locke foundation point.

Thank you very much. Thank you.that's all the time we have for Carolina journal radio this week. Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch. Okay I'm Donna Martinez.

Join us again next week for more Carolina journal radio Carolina journal radio is a program of the John learn more about the John Locke foundation including donations support programs like Carolina journal radio send email to development John Locke call 1866 jail left info 166-553-4636 journal radio nation airline is all opinions expressed on this program nearly mentioned on the show or other foundation is any airline sponsored Carolina radio again

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