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Carolina Journal Radio No. 765: Teacher attrition rate drops, more effective teachers stay

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
January 15, 2018 12:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 765: Teacher attrition rate drops, more effective teachers stay

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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January 15, 2018 12:00 am

North Carolina’s teacher attrition rate dropped last year, and those who left the job were less effective teachers than those who stayed. Terry Stoops, John Locke Foundation vice president for research, digs into the latest data about teacher attrition and teacher vacancies. Members of the University of North Carolina system’s Board of Governors are interested in boosting intellectual diversity on campuses. They sought advice recently from Princeton professor Robert George, the founder and leader of the James Madison Program in American Ideals and Institutions. George highlighted his program’s positive impact on the Princeton campus. He also pointed to potential challenges of mirroring his program in a public university system, or even a single flagship university. It’s possible to define “conservative politics” in multiple ways. John Locke Foundation Chairman John Hood offered his definition during a recent speech to the Leadership Institute. Hood explained why his definition follows Margaret Thatcher’s maxim that the facts of life are conservative. Gov. Roy Cooper has decried Republican lawmakers’ “corporate giveaways,” meaning corporate tax rate cuts, while at the same touting targeted tax incentives that amount to real corporate giveaways. Donald Bryson, N.C. state director of Americans For Prosperity, spots the apparent contradiction. Bryson explains why his group is drawing attention to Cooper’s rhetoric on taxation of corporations. Supporters and opponents of the Atlantic Coast Pipeline are vying for Gov. Roy Cooper’s attention. The latest Carolina Journal cover story highlights the ways different interest groups are trying to sway Cooper to support their positions on the pipeline. It would extend through several eastern North Carolina counties. Editor-in-Chief Rick Henderson discusses CJ’s reporting on the topic and Cooper’s relative silence on the topic.

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From Cherokee to current attack from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got during the next hour Donna Martinez that I will explore some major issues affecting our state. Members of the UNC board of governors recently enlisted help from a conservative professor at Princeton you hear what he had to say about efforts to improve campus discourse and boost ideological diversity. Speaking of conservatives, the chairman of the John Locke foundation offers his take on the definition of conservative politics. Gov. Roy Cooper campaigned against corporate tax giveaways, but he's happy to support targeted tax incentives. Your why one group is highlighting the apparent contradiction. And speaking of Cooper you'll hear about efforts to sway his opinion toward the Atlantic coast pipeline. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline North Carolina public schools employed at just less than 95,000 teachers during the 2015, 16 school year and now new data from the state gives us a really interesting look at the number of teachers who actually left the system and why. Dr. Terry stoops is VP of research is also director of education studies for the John Locke foundation. He's been taking a look at all the numbers and he joins us now to talk about it.

Jerry welcome back. Thank you so in the past several years we've heard a lot of media coverage and kind of a narrative among the least segment of educators that they didn't like the political and policy environment towards public schools with Republicans in charge of the general assembly and there were claims that all sorts of teachers were leaving the system because of that, what is this new data show us. We have a lower percentage of teachers leaving the system than we have in the years past, and there's a change to the reports that occurred last year so it's tough to compare across years. But what we see over the two-year span of the new format of the report is that fewer teachers early, a lower percentage of teachers are leaving the system around 9% left. The left their position at a public school in North Carolina last year from 8 1/2 a .65% of the last year 2016, 17, so there's a slight rent reduction in that percentage really. We've rarely ever had a year where there was a problem of teachers leaving the system in large numbers, something that was alarming that we could say oh my gosh there's something going around with the political or the policy environment where we need to retain teachers at a higher rates for the most part teachers are staying in North Carolina public schools at rates that are higher than a lot of other professions and there is really no crisis. And there's really no sense of there's going to be any crisis of teachers leaving the classroom. Do we have a sense of why teachers are leaving their leaving for any number of reasons, and this is the other part of the narrative that gets lost is that people were saying that teachers leave because they're dissatisfied with their job or they're not getting paid enough or they don't like the Republicans in the general assembly of the truth is there leaving for personal reasons a spouse may get moved to another state.

They may go on disability they may retire so they leave for any number of reasons, some that the state can control perhaps two things to retain those teachers and sometimes are things that the state can do nothing about. To retain those teachers because their personal circumstances require them to leave that job and so it's important to realize when you hear 8.65% of the teachers in North Carolina are a left the classroom last year. It's not as if they left for other jobs they left for any number of reasons, I noticed two among the data was a line item as to why some teachers are leaving related to military service, whether for themselves or family members and and I had thought of that. Previously, Terry, but it does make sense considering summary bases in North Carolina that is absolutely right and you could see that if you go down and looking at all the different categories that are provided in this survey doesn't give you an exact sense doesn't give you precise data on the reasons why teachers left but you get some very general reasons, including the movements of those who are in the military teach for America teachers who are only under contract for two years of visiting international faculty teachers that are under short-term contracts that come from other nations to teach in North Carolina on a temporary basis so all of those teachers we know are probably going to have only a certain length of their tenure in North Carolina's public schools so they are expected to leave in a sense of in other areas. Maybe not so much that we see that certainly there are teachers that have a time-limited amounts of time in our public schools areas you have written about this issue over the last several years, Sam. It's always struck me about one particular point that you make that I think sometimes people either don't think of her discount and that is that you say, look, it's not necessarily a bad thing that at least some teachers are leaving the system. Why the great thing about the new format of the report is that it compares the performance of teachers who left the system out to those who remained in the system and as we found last year for the year before.

Teachers that remain in the system are higher performers and those that left the system so they look at test score growth.

Comparing those who left with those who stayed and found that students learn a lot more from teachers that stay in the system than those that leave. We want the bad teachers to leave. That is good attrition because we will presumably replace those teachers with better teachers, so having the good teachers stay courses absolutely important, but equally as important. We need to make sure that those teachers that are not serving our children well leave the classroom and it appears that's what's happening. If you look at some of the early career teachers that decide to leave the classroom is predominantly these early career teachers teachers between one and five years of experience. We find will a good high percentage of them decide to leave the classroom because they find that teaching is not for them.

If there's a teacher of the finds that the profession is not something they want to do. Why would we want them to stay in the classroom. I certainly wouldn't want them teaching my children, Terry does the attrition rate in any way affect, then the current school year. In terms of the number of teachers that are working as you and I are speaking. Do we have holes to.

We have empty classrooms that the teacher of very rarely do we have an empty classroom in the this year's report includes vacancy rates. These are the rates of which school districts have classrooms that are not staffed by a certified full-time teacher so just because a school reports that they have a vacancy that is more likely to mean not an empty classroom at a classroom that staffed by retired teacher classroom that staffed by a temporary teacher or long-term substitute so the idea that there are schools that start the school year with empty classroom with classroom full of kids with no teacher in the front is probably wrong. Another certainly the larger school districts and sometimes have staffing needs to go into the school district, but the vacancy report that's included in this study tells us that about 1.5% of our classrooms were staffed by temporary teacher, a retired teacher or long-term substitute so the vacancy problem is is unique to certain districts in certain subjects, but is not statewide. A problem tell us about the particular subject areas. Are we seeing a trend here of where the, the demand for teachers is outpacing the supply we've only known for about three or four decades, that the bad special education science vacancies continue to be our biggest problem of this is no secret that we continue to have a problem recruiting and retaining bath signs special education teachers, and we find that in the middle and high school. So especially in those those grades of mass on math and science teachers are hard to come by for education teachers in core subject teachers in elementary schools tend to have a pretty high vacancy rate as well so we know where the vacancies are we notes in certain subjects the state as a whole was not having a problem finding the English teacher social studies teachers physical education teachers were or even music or art teachers.

We always have had a problem recruiting math and science teachers Terry what we do about that.

If it's a long-term problem. It seems like we haven't come across the right fix. We have known for four decades that states that have some sort of incentive pay incentive for teachers that teach in the subjects tend to have higher rates of of retention of them live in talking with Dr. Terry stoops. He is the John Locke foundation's vice president for research.

Also, the director of education studies.

Thank you, thank you say with this much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business. How can you tell if government is doing a good job making the right choices. Spending tax dollars wisely. Carolina tackles those questions every day. The John Locke foundation publishes Carolina journal in print each month and on the web each you'll find exclusive investigative reports on topics.

No one else is covering what else a rundown of the best new stories, editorials and opinion columns in North Carolina.

John Hood's daily Journal news stories and important public and the voices of the newsmakers themselves at Carolina journal radio in print on the air and on the web. You can find the information you will come back to Carolina journal radio I Michiko got some members of the University of North Carolina system's board of governors want to increase the diversity of viewpoints on campus they heard advice on the topic recently from Prof. Robert George. He directs the James Madison program at Princeton. What we try to do in the Madison program in her own small way is to empower students to think for themselves on issues of the utmost importance not only to our contemporary lives but to the success long-term success of the American experiment and ordered liberty, and a Republican government. We do that by having a program of visiting fellows, visiting scholars, postdoctoral fellows, by having faculty Associates by offering or sponsoring courses in various departments among mainly in the Department of what we call politics. What else was called political science, but we sponsored courses in the Department of philosophy, and in the Department of religion and will be sponsoring courses on shore and other departments as well. We do it by bringing in of visiting speakers from across the political spectrum worked the Madison program's effect has been far beyond the narrow field of constitutional law or political thought that is our is our focus, it's really have a transformative effect on the campus in encouraging civil robust debate about a wide range of issues on the campus, there is a spectrum of views represented now in the discussion of Princeton, which is much broader than what was available on our campus before Madison program came into being.

Some people label Princeton's James Madison program conservative. I am a conservative, but that doesn't mean that the program is conservative.

We are not interested in creating a conservative safe space or playground for conservatives and our goal is not even fairness to conservatives or anybody else that might be a worthy goal. That's not our goal.

Our goal is enhancing the quality of education and scholarly discussion on the Princeton campus by broadening the range of perspectives and voices that are in the conversation that's Robert George Princeton's James Madison program speaking recently to the UNC system's board of governors.

I'm excited that our program is being 12 by North Carolina as a model. All universities are so different that it would be impossible simply to drop something based on the Madison program into North Carolina. Whatever you end up with. I'm sure will look in very very many ways different from the Madison program. How could it not be your State University were private university. Your university is 24,000 students are 6500 or something like that. It doesn't have to be a program in American ideals and institutions. It doesn't have to be a program that's focused on constitutional law on American political thought, that's the Madison programs focus because it happens to be the focus of my scholarship and I found Madison program so it won't surprise me if it looks different in many ways. I hope that you will be able to create a program that achieves for your young men and women, young men and women of North Carolina. Those who come to North Carolina. Chapel Hill program that achieves the same results that we are achieving for our students deepening their understanding and appreciation of the spectrum of viewpoints, helping them to grasp the profound advantage to everyone including themselves of robust but civil discourse on learning to think critically by engaging what's to be said by the most intelligent, well-informed people on competing sides of questions.

UNC's decision could have wide ranging implications North Carolina system is one of the great university systems in the United States, the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill is one of the great universities in the United States. What happens here matters more than simply a more jump to more people than merely the people of North Carolina.

What you do here will be noticed and look to buy others in the country.

What you do will set an example for other states and for other universities so I want you to be aware that your first responsibility obviously is to the people of North Carolina. The importance of what you're doing goes beyond the borders of the state. If you would see faculty members object to a new program or Institute modeled on Princeton's James Madison program I just defend core basic values. The idea that we all benefited no matter what our position as a matter whether our position happens at the moment to be the Geordie or dominant position on campus or happens to be the minority dissenting position on all benefited by expanding the opportunities for ourselves and our students to engage people across the spectrum of syllabi reasonable and responsible people in the society and one just your basic fact that we were all in the society. Gotta recognize on the right and on the left is reasonable people of goodwill. This reasonable people of goodwill people justice work is just as well informed as disagree with me. I'm not infallible. No one is my interlocutor, my opponent could be wrong as well. Someone we do what we do is make sure that there is freedom in the presence of voice that will articulately present the very best case is on the competing sides of the I can't think of another way to invite minor one you've got a better way to show me that you in fact have a better way.

George says Princeton's program is help the campus avoid problems with student conservatives biting openly provocative right wing speakers know why is that the case at Princeton where in so many places around the country. Conservative students, for whatever reasons feel they have to bring and provide first extremists and with no or very little academic sin, it's because they're feeling so isolated and alienated, and they find the atmosphere so suffocating oppressive that they think you need someone to cause an explosion and really shake things up so they asked to bring in these provocateurs.

Our situation is so much better. George Ward UNC leaders to focus on more than just the structure of a new program. It needs the right leaders. The Soviet Constitution, the Chinese Constitution. If you read or see freedom of religion because there's the lack of that virtue and the leadership to the actual freedoms that are the substance of the of the political order same here is designing whatever your program works for initiative for Institute will be do your best to structure things to ensure fidelity to the mission really really important next decision will be with your leadership and it's just person that's Princeton Prof. Robert George speaking recently to UNC's board of governors.

He offered advice on how they might try to emulate Princeton's James Madison program will return with more Carolina journal radio about if you love freedom we got great news to share with you now.

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Don't forget log on to today by something nice and help defend freedom. Support the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina journal radio amateur coca. What is it mean to engage in conservative politics. Of course there's more than one definition.

John Locke foundation chairman John Hood has one. It's fairly simple.

He shared it recently during a speech for the leadership Institute in Washington DC.

I think the simplest way to describe that is why Margaret Thatcher wants to when she simply said the facts of life are conservative, but the point being, conservatism, and if you think about it it's it's an alliance it's an amalgam of some very different strains of thought from traditionalists to libertarians to hawks. What binds this sort of unwieldy coalition together is an acceptance of reality as it is and that is not to say that one except the current state of affairs as well.

This is the best we can do. That's not at all what this means is Francis Bacon said nature in order to become to to be commanded must be obeyed. In other words, if you want to make a change in human affairs. Need to start with something that is unchangeable, which is human nature and if you think about it all the strands of conservative thought. Take as their starting point, something that is unchanging. If you are traditionalists door a social conservative you believe there are certain virtues or traditions or institutions that have proven themselves over time to be valuable and enduring and in support of a human flourishing your libertarian free marketeer believe there are certain inescapable facts of life. Scarcity, desire to make something better for yourselves and your family which we call self-interest is actually not just about the self. It's about something broader than the self and these are honest, inescapable realities, you might want things to be the same that they were 20 years ago. The technology strange people have gone and done something different and you can't put the genie back in the bottles, unchangeable, and similarly, if your foreign policy conservative your hawk, you recognize that we can dream all day long and make up songs about a Maginot, you know, no national borders and no having to know Helen things like that.

But the reality is world is populated by people who want to steal you and knock you over the head and take your stuff so you better protect yourself just part of reality, so my definition of conservative politics is the practice of the facts of life, applying them to reality.

That's John Locke foundation chairman John Hood speaking recently in Washington DC who defined the term conservative politics during a presentation for the leadership Institute will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment real influence. You either have it or you don't and at the John Locke foundation. We do, and that's not bluster in a private survey of more than 250 North Carolina political insiders 87% said we influence them either a great deal a good amount. So while others talk and complain.

We get to work providing research solutions and help our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more. We look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control. Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse that is the envy of every other state.

Our research is actually help policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you earn. Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities and improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future. The John Locke foundation were dedicated to making North Carolina first and freedom were dedicated to you look back Carolina journal radio I Mitch coca government shouldn't be in the business of picking economic winners and losers. That's exactly what North Carolina government does when it pans out targeted tax incentives and credits. One person keeps track of these incentives is Donald Bryson piece the North Carolina state director of Americans for prosperity. He recently addressed the John Locke foundation's Shaftesbury Society on the theme reverse Robin Hood corporate welfare in North Carolina. Welcome back to the program.

Thanks for everyone's always a pleasure a lot of things we could talk about in terms of corporate tax incentives but working to get into one specific case that you you found kind of agree just before that though, let's remind people were talking about tax incentives, targeted tax incentives. Corporate welfare when we talk about or talking about. There are several types of programs but generally speaking there talking about incentives where a company decides to move into North Carolina or even expanding North Carolina authority here and in the state government. Specifically, the Department of Commerce agrees to give them back so much money per job in a lump sum or you over the next 10 to 12 years. So in the case of credit suites which the Swiss Bank that was already in of the research Triangle Park bear expanding by 1200 jobs over the next 10 years.

And so North Carolina will be giving them $40.2 million as part of that expansion. This is something North Carolina has been involved with for years and years and years. We got out a hand on the campaign trail in 2016 that are now Gov. Roy Cooper might've had a different philosophy about this. I don't think Gov. Cooper philosophy is change a thing.

He's misusing terms what we have, over and over again are quotes from our Gov. Cooper about decrying corporate tax giveaways. It's a term he says over and over your corporate tax giveaways, corporate tax giveaways. In fact, even when he vetoed the budget from the general assembly this year. He talked about how giveaways to corporations were just far too large problem is that the governors using when we cut the rate evenly for all corporations when we treat bills plumbing sayings retreat Bank of America with the same corporate tax rate. He he says that is a corporate tax giveaway.

However, he'll go off and give these special incentive program for special incentive deals to specific companies usually very politically connected companies and in fact you have done some work tallying just how much of the actual corporate tax giveaways have been given out in the first nine months or so of Gov. Cooper's term and what you five will there are a variety of corporate welfare programs in North Carolina that are all acronyms JDA GMAC one and see. But if you take the jobs development investment grant program which is called comical JDA ground Raleigh in the one North Carolina fund which of the two largest of these funds. If you tally up everything all the deals that the Cooper nutrition is inked since he came in all spec in January it comes to $125,835,000 that North Carolina taxpayers are on the hook for such $125 million in less than a year in the first year of office for this together. That's right it, which is sort of terrifying when you think about what the next four years.

Term of the next three and half years could mean but he's willing to give more than that there was an article I came out of the Triangle business Journal. Just last week where public records show that he offered $540 million to to Fox time to move to North Carolina but instead they took a $3 billion deal which is just astronomical to make the move to Wisconsin. We are chatting with Donald Bryson who is the North Carolina state director of Americans for prosperity, Donald.

Some people are going to hear us and say wait a minute. If you have to spend some incentives money to bring these companies here means jobs for North Carolina. Is this a small price to pay for economic development. Why is it wrong to consider this just an investment that helps bring jobs to the state because what these are essentially tax rebates, they lower the tax burden of companies that are moving here and so people who agree that these things are good and will create jobs also agree that lowering tax burdens will create jobs well if that's the case that instead of picking specific companies that would lower tax burdens for to the tune of $125 million.

What we cut the tax burden for all North Carolina companies equally are $224 million and see you know how how the state grows my way and if we see what or how the state has grown since we first shipment of the tax reforms in 2013 20 1415 1617 are job numbers are phenomenal without bringing in a very many of these large whales is economic 12 people will call them.

So your conference of tax reform and regulatory reform are much better job creators much more stable job creators than these incentive programs but furthermore if we are going to call them investments think there's a question of wooden before trying to get a return on our dollars will go to college investments than you want. Why doesn't Sage start buying shares and the answer is because it's not what in the role of government. Another thing we have not yet pointed out is if one company gets a cash grants or tax rebate someone span for that and many times it's their competitors is it is their competitors.

Your credit suites is a good example of that. It's a publicly traded near Wall Street traded Swiss Bank factor were giving money to a bank is the best joke in a family, let alone, but you have to think about were North Carolina this is Charlotte where the banking capital of the South and so we got Native American first citizens Bank Cardinal bank.

The bank of granite.

All of these homegrown North Carolina-based but expediency that are having to essentially fund their competitors expansion in RTP. It is just not a fair business practice and I think you if Waukomis were thinking about. That way there and start raising a lot of trouble if the general assembly.

Speaking of the general assembly we mention Gov. Roy Cooper who is a Democrat.

The general assembly is run by Republicans and we can't really say that this is a partisan issue because the Republican-led Gen. assembly has supported many of his incentives as well. As an absolutely Gov. Pat McCrory, who is Republican also gave away a lot of these sinners. This is not a partisan issue. This is an issue of what is good government. What is bad government. The problem is that with Gov. Cooper. In particular, and while we lost this initiative with reverse Robin Hood is because he had such a long quote line just over and over again you'd see in the press in North Carolina talking about how bad corporate tax giveaways, corporate tax giveaways, corporate tax giveaways are but when it comes down to it, is giving them out as fast as he can go in and would give more with Fox, example if he could if he were defining the term corporate tax giveaway correctly. You'd be right on board with them, saying, this is one singular.actually, I would be right on board with the problem is that he is opposed to cutting the overall tax rate for taxpayers instead wants to pick which companies get to expand and which ones don't.

It is not a fair way to one used taxpayer money and to start a fair way to treat businesses in our state. You mentioned a website that details much more about this involving our governor and what you were calling reverse Robin Hood. The use corporate welfare at let's get that website again. Sure, it's reverse Robin Hood and it details all of the corporate welfare generals from JDA can one North Carolina that, to this date, the Cooper administration has sort of sign put taxpayers on the hook for so you let people know it's all public information ticket for your request which compiled a lot of information from the Department of Commerce and people can do because essentially what is doing is he's taking from middle-class and working-class taxpayers and giving to wealthy corporations and one of the people is going to continue to follow. Gov. Roy Cooper and his use of corporate tax giveaways is Donald Bryson. He is North Carolina state director of Americans for prosperity. Donald, thank you for having a lot more on Carolina Journal rate just a moment.

Full color throughout every issue more visual storytelling. We've revamped Carolina Journal to make it easier to read a new look and a new feel. But one thing hasn't changed and it never will.

That is our commitment to truth and transparency in government, you can still count on Carolina Journal for investigations into government spending revelations about boondoggles and vetting of corruption. No permission to shine the light on what North Carolina government and the bureaucrats who run it are doing in your name and with your money will never wane and because of that our reach and influence are growing to all of our distribution outlets we reach more than 1 million N. Carolinians every month so make sure you stay informed. Read the monthly print edition of Carolina Journal then check in several times a day. Carolina that's where you'll find fresh stories, opinion pieces and updates on government politics and your money. Carolina Journal we hold government accountable to you. Welcome back to Carolina Journal radio I'm Donna Martinez what is called the Atlantic coast pipeline 600 mile project that will bring natural gas from West Virginia to Virginia and into North Carolina but as we see often with any big project of this size.

This one has attracted supporters and opponents as well. All along the route.

So far, however, Gov. Roy Cooper has largely been silent on this project, which would come through North Carolina. The whole issue is the cover story for the January issue of Carolina Journal and editor-in-chief Rick Henderson is here to talk about it Rick, welcome back to the program based on the Atlantic coast pipeline a done deal, regardless of what the governor thinks will pretty much shunning the governor could do some things to stop it or to attempt to stop it. For instance, if the his environmental quality regulators will find out that some aspects of it looks like some of the substations along the way to cause air or water quality issues that were so stringent that were so severe that the operators of the pipeline couldn't fix them.

And so that would be one way to stop the pipeline, but those are the sorts of issues that can be dealt with with the people with the various utilities were going to own and operate the pipeline. So what, it may well be is that there may be different impediments are thrown in a way that require some changes along the way.

But it's really really going to be difficult for the government to stop this because it has the approval of the federal energy regulatory commission. It already has basically been signed off on thoroughly by officials, West Virginia and Virginia and for the most part, people were along the pipeline wanted to happen.

So because of all those things it would be really really difficult for the government stop help us understand the project a little bit more.

I describe it for us and out where the energy coming from right eye injuries coming from the natural gas that that's being produced. West Virginia and it is a much larger supply line for natural gas. We currently have in that part of North Carolina. There are a number of small towns in North Carolina that don't have access to a lot of natural gas and so what this pipeline would do would be to give them the ability to tap in and to get a much larger volume of natural gas for things like economic development projects, possibly small or large manufacturing for new building for new homes to replace oil or a coal fired energy for for different residential and commercial uses. And so it would really deliver a lot more energy here and it would do so in a way that actually the disruption would simply be delaying the pipeline itself not actually going out it was a fracking or doing something else. It would cause other the whole other set of controversies with the folks in the energy community. Natural gas is a cheaper alternative is also cleaner to source fossil fuels are concerned with its considered to be the cleanest one, and it's also is in many ways the safest one because it's the easiest transport.

It has the fewest side effects of things like: missions coal ash problems with with heating oil crude oil can have problems yes bills neglect adding natural gas in many ways for the ideal fossil fuel.

Let's talk about the supporters in the opponents is against this people who were against it are as for the usual suspects if you will be environmental groups who want us to get away from fossil fuel usage and what they're claiming is that this is something simply go to Vegas continue our dependency on fossil fuels, and so I can see Warden Sierra Club, and the like a poser for that reason the North Carolina NAACP opposes it because they claim that the root of the pipeline would have negative implications for the communities along the pipeline and there are all large minority large pursuit percentage of people who live along the the area are minorities now. This also runs right along Interstate 95. So were going to have a project in sometime soon that expands Interstate 95.

One way or another.

The increases the capacity so you almost wonder if the if the groups that oppose this Ross would oppose that because anything that would do anything possible impacts that might affect people along the Atlantic coast pipeline also would affect people when the Interstate 95 is expected who supports every economic development person in the state supports it, basically regardless of political party in the all the business interest supported the mayors and the chambers of commerce in the Cook County commissioners and the city councils all up and down the pipeline area supported the North Carolina Department of Commerce supported all of the governor himself and said nothing about it and pretty much anybody who will benefit from additional supplies of natural gas will together go to be piped in from out-of-state and not cause any major disruptions in current areas is safe we were to go to fracking or even drilling offshore.

You won't have those sorts of impacts there and so this is something that she is perceived to be a real potential blue. This would be underground right so largely underground. Some might be up there may be some aboveground segments of it but there can be largely underground. It will be going under some riverbeds and streambeds and things like that so there will be that sort of disruption during the construction phase. But after that, other than just doing maintenance, making sure that everything is flowing properly. The distributor she disruption of private property owners.

Anybody who's home or something they own is is in this corridor. Well, they because these has a pipeline as actually owned by the various utilities then the utilities themselves have the rights of eminent domain is necessary to take the these people prop the people's property with just compensation. The sum of the opposition coach people on the left were saying that, well, you know, this is simply your simply seizing people's property without their consent will that's why you have eminent domain. There is a reason for doing that. It should be used very sparingly. Additionally be used for certain public works projects that cannot be done through the voluntary acquisition of land so just as well I 95. You have some eminent domain involved in getting easements to expand the freeway or do other things with it. Or maybe move its path little bit with with this pipeline you're going to have to get easements from people, people really pay for it.

It seems curious that the Department of Commerce that she said has been supportive on the record as being supportive of this project.

Yet the governor himself. Roy Cooper has not really said yes or no. When you make that well for things having his Department of environmental quality. Ask a lot of questions about some of these jumping off point for the pipeline are called substations and the like where they're going to actually leave the pipeline and then then distribute the natural gas keynote through some sort of method to light realtor like a web of different communities and things like that person's concerns about air and water quality, and those are legitimate questions to ask when you want to make sure that if you got a call something that is going to deliver such a huge volume of energy is good actually sort of jump off the pipeline and go into the community like Roanoke Rapids or anything like that. Along that area that that you're making sure that you not affect water quality and that you not to harm air quality and so Gov. Cooper's asked me make sure those questions are being asked and if they're not resolved in a way that seems to satisfy local and state environmental regulations, and it may well be that the utilities have to make some accommodation for that, but that's what you would with any infrastructure project.

Those are not unusual questions to ask is just that they are seem to be coming up. In this case because every body of the support for it is so strong and so vocal, so the other two states involved West Virginia and Virginia. They pretty much signed off on this whole thing. So now North Carolina's in the spotlight just waiting to see what the answers to these questions are that's writing Virginia still may have some water quality concerns, but I think those are all to be worked out again is just the standard thing that you do is make sure that your environmental rules are being followed. When projects like this happen. You can read it And of course in the print edition of Carolina Journal Rick Anderson is editor-in-chief.

Thank you thank you all the time we have for the program this week.

Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost, Michelle, Guy, I'm Donna Martinez. Join us again next week for another edition of Carolina Journal radio Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John learn more about the John Locke foundation including donations support programs like Carolina Journal radio send email to development John Locke call 1866 jail left info 1-866-553-4636 Journal radio nation airline is maintained.

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