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Carolina Journal Radio No. 779: School safety review includes nurses, psychologists

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
April 23, 2018 12:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 779: School safety review includes nurses, psychologists

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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April 23, 2018 12:00 am

As N.C. lawmakers look for ways to improve school safety in the aftermath of the Parkland, Fla., school shooting, one area that’s attracting attention is increased access to school mental health services. Lindsay Marchello, Carolina Journal associate editor, reports on a recent meeting that emphasized recommendations for more school nurses and psychologists. Marchello also notes one other interesting piece of education news: the selection of a charter school operator to run the Robeson County school selected for the state’s new Innovative School District. College athletes devote much of their time to practicing and playing games. They also spend a lot of time traveling to competitions. Jenna Robinson, president of the James G. Martin Center for Academic Renewal, looks into the impact of travel time on athletes’ ability to complete their academic coursework. Issues surrounding economic mobility help keep University of North Carolina system President Margaret Spellings up at night. She explained why during a recent speech in Charlotte. Spellings discusses the role she believes the UNC system needs to play to help address mobility issues. State lawmakers are considering major changes in the way North Carolina selects its judges. One expert in the field believes this state already uses one of the best – if not the best – possible system. Chris Bonneau, associate professor of political science at the University of Pittsburgh, defended partisan judicial elections during a recent Raleigh forum sponsored by the Federalist Society. Bonneau highlights advantages of partisan elections and rebuts criticism against that method of filling the top jobs within the judicial branch. The Wall Street Journal recently praised a Nebraska proposal for reforming that state’s occupational licensing system. Jon Sanders, John Locke Foundation director of regulatory studies, says that proposal should look familiar to people who have read his work. Sanders explains how Nebraska’s Occupational Board Reform Act fits with proposals he has advocated for years.

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From Cherokee to current attack from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio I Michiko Kai during the next hour Donna Martinez that I will explore some major issues affecting our state college athletes spend a lot of time practicing and playing games.

The head of a North Carolina-based higher education watchdog also worries about the amount of travel time like college sports.

Learn why bed at the University of North Carolina system spends much of her time thinking about economic mobility. She explains the UNC system's role in addressing that issue North Carolina lawmakers are considering major changes in the way the state selects judges one expert explains why he believes the state already uses the best possible system and the North Carolina regulatory expert examines a new national media report it touted the benefits of performing state occupational licensing restrictions. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline mental health experts are calling for more nurses and more psychologists in North Carolina public schools. The recommendation is just one facet being discussed by lawmakers who are now looking at how North Carolina might respond to the recent school shooting in Florida and the issues of mental health and facility safety that have arisen Lindsay. Marcello is an associate editor of Carolina Journal.

She's been reporting on the meetings Wednesday. Welcome to the program. I think for having me.

Let's talk first about mental health. There was a committee meeting. I know that you have been out reporting on that from those comments well from the committee, which was born from the House select committee on school safety on the working group.

Student health, mental health, we learned that there is a shortage of school psychologists and school nurses in schools across North Carolina. We have a ratio for school psychologists of one to do every 2100 students in the recommended one is 1 to 500 700 and that was school nurses, we have 1 to 1000 school nurses. The recommended one from the state Board of Education is Wanda like I believe one to 500 as well. It came out, and in some of the testimony in your reporting that because of that there are medical professionals who are serving multiple schools.

So what I do. Just drive around to different locations. Yeah, I think they just split up their time between schools we have, I believe 12 school districts that don't have a single school psychologist, so I'm not sure what they're doing without that person there, they might be pushing off responsibilities to someone who's a little less trained for that sort of position. I know would like school nurses there pushing some of the duties onto school administrators is teaching a basic first aid certain things but that's not gonna cut it for students with more complex disorders or diseases. How are lawmakers responding to this is, as they were hearing the statistics they were very troubled by them. They they're looking to whether the issue it would be more economically sound to appropriate more funds to hire school more school psychologist, or whether it would be better to raise the wages for school psychologists right now in North Carolina. Your starting salary is $43,000 and goes upwards to 61,000, the national average is 63,000 summer. Not very competitive with other states. We may be losing students who have trained to be schools is up psychologists who may be losing them to other states. So the lawmaker discussed idea of maybe raising that competitive wage or doing smart targeted recruitment for students to go through school programs for school psychologists. Either way, it sounds costly. It's probably going to be costly yes, but lawmakers have had the idea in their head for this particular issue that there's no shortage of money for protecting your students. It seems that they're willing to spend as much as possible to protect students, so Lindsay. They were also some some discussions there were discussions and comments about other ideas and something called a peer to peer program apparently has been experimented with and in other areas. What is that sees me so representative Corbett was very interested in this idea.

He really wanted to talk more about it, but the ideas that students are more likely to talk to each other than they are to talk to an adult. There's something going on with their lives or if they see something they don't want to be this this niche so they didn't really tell their friends about. So the idea is to set up a program where kids can like help each other and talk to each other through mental health issues.

Teach them about being responsible adults being civil with one another wanted the programs that's already in effect is called stamp and the idea there is that you would have a mentor for each student that needs one that need somebody to talk to. That is maybe expanding that program to more schools instead of just the one.

In addition to these issues of mental health at some point, there can be talking about physical safety of the actual school campuses them have they gotten into any of that yet.

They will in the next working group will talk more about hiring more school resource officers or what kind of things we can do to the buildings themselves make them safer maybe bulletproof windows are doors that are stronger that you can be part against intruders through the lizard things will be taken up in the next committee meeting Lindsay separate from the issue of responding in some way to that tragedy in Florida. While we've also got lawmakers very concerned about low performing schools. And since that you are on the education beat for Carolina Journal. I wanted to talk with you about this.

There's something very new and different that is going on and that the state is trying and a Robeson County school is going to be the first school who is put into a different governing category tell us about this. Yes of the idea it was born from a 2016 law originally called the achievement school district but it was change the innovative school district the ideas to take five low performing schools and give them partnering them up with the outside entity like the charter school management company or an education management organization and to try and help them improve their scores through greater flexibility, different curriculum and different hiring practices for teachers. So the first school that was chosen was Cel-Sci pole in Robinson County. They have the lowest scores in the state. They have they haven't meant growth and I think over three years so they are really in trouble and so the ideas they are to be paired up with achievement for all children to try and see if they can improve the scores and that is a private firm that is a private firm yes and that they have experience in taking over schools essentially in trying to put them on the right track. Turnaround operation achievement for all children is relatively new. I think they've only been around for like one year so their track record is a little mixed but there partnering up with team CFA which has operated several charter schools and across the country, but particular 13 in North Carolina.

That relationship kinda helps them get that credibility to run Cel-Sci Nashville this whole idea of taking these low performing schools and trying to do something since clearly the status quo is not working. It has not been without controversy. There is certainly some folks who don't like this idea at at all and tell us about this is when Cel-Sci Nashville was first chosen, there was a lot of pushback from the local community Robinson County. There is talks of maybe closing the school.

That was the only option they would have aside from accepting the recommendation date either you partner up with this outside entity, or they would close down entirely as there was talk to do that, but Dr. Eric Hall. He's the ISD superintendent. He went down to Robeson County. He talked to the local community there.

He talked to this school minute shaders and to the teachers and think he really turned their opinions around about this idea is abandoned up the school board down there ended up approving the recommendation so that pushback is not as prevalent anymore, but there's still some concerns that since this is a relatively new thing that the innocent people are afraid of what this could mean whether or not it'll make a difference that you mentioned that five schools essentially were put in the hopper for being being a part of this and we know that that this particular school pole is the first one is going to get going. How prevalent are low performing schools in North Carolina. Did they have sadly a lot of schools to choose from to put on this list of five believes that yes it's not not good, but the original list started out with 48 schools and Dr. call. He looked at her test performances are growth and a lot of other data factors and I started drinking that list down he went for 48 human to six than to four and then finally to Cel-Sci. Nashville originally they were going to choose to schools start out, but because this is a new thing, Hall was more comfortable just recommending one school for the start. Hopefully this can bring hope to the parents of those kids were in this low performing school, but it as always, only time will tell as to how effective this is. I take it you're probably gonna be following this story as well.

I was certainly yes I believe starting in August is when achievement for all children will open the school get up again and then we'll see what happens after that player will have you back to talk about that and also as we continue into this process of looking at how the state of North Carolina may respond in terms of mental health issues and is a co-campus issues now that Joe look like were reacting to what occurred in Florida. Lindsay Marcello is an associate editor of Carolina Journal. You can read all of her work on these consequential issues@careonlinejournal.com. Thank you. Say this much more Carolina Journal radio to come just to government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business. How can you tell if government is doing a good job making the right choices. Spending tax dollars wisely.

Carolina Journal.com tackles those questions every day. The John Locke foundation publishes Carolina Journal imprint each month and on the web each day at Carolina. Journal.com you'll find exclusive investigative reports on topics. No one else is covering what else a rundown of the best new stories, editorials and opinion columns in North Carolina. John Hood's daily Journal news stories and important public events@carolinajournal.tv and the voices of the newsmakers themselves at Carolina Journal radio and print on the air and on the web. You can find the information you need@carolinajournal.com welcome back to Carolina Journal radio live Ashoka college athletes spend a lot of time both practicing for their sports and playing the games themselves, but they also spent a lot of time traveling for competition and actually travel recently generated a lengthy story of one of North Carolina's largest newspapers, but our next guest highlighted the same issue weeks earlier, Jenna Robinson is president of the James G.

Martin Center for academic renewal. Welcome back to image why was actually travel something that the Martin Center decided was something that should be highlighted. While I started thinking about it because over the Thanksgiving break.

I was watching the tournament in the Bahamas where NC State went to compete and just really had a terrible time of it.

They won one game and then lost the other two and so they went all this way at great expense.

The players didn't get to go home for Thanksgiving break and they didn't really seem any further along in the goals for the team and so I started to think about all of these is like a proliferation of preseason tournaments, travel tournaments that are you know it's not their conference tournament.

It's not the NCAA tournament is currently extra preliminaries and so I started to think about what is this really doing to the team what are the demands of this on athletes. We arty know that the demands on athletes are far more than a typical student and so I started look into it and my instincts were right. This travel is a problem and I suspect that from your vantage point, the Martin Center, you'd still have this concert even if it's he stated got it done really well in this tournament with their still traveling to the Bahamas to write time off from school. The goal is right absolute. I still would have had the same concern, but I think it just made it so very clear that you know they went all this way and got really nothing out of from your vantage point is the head of the leading higher education watchdog group here. Why is this something that you should be looking at that university should be the biggest reason is that academic should come first. Even that the NCAA admits that most of their students go pro in something else. They don't go pro in their sport and so students, student athletes, all students need to leave school with skills and talent for the future other than athletic talent and that travel time is really eating into the time that athletes have for for their classes and a lot of it. As I said is in fact preseason and nonconference travel and so it is that the seasons have been growing longer and of course the conferences have been growing bigger which means that travel time has been increasing, and students generally miss one or two classes a week during the season and even during the preseason in order in order to do all this travel when these student athletes are not able to attend the classes when their out of even out of the state or out of the country. In the case of the tournament. Your you're talking about for a week or so at a time. This is really stop them from having the same type of college experience that it quote unquote normal student without you. I think it does because athletes themselves have said they want more time to relax by themselves.

They want more time to see their families. Some of them in divisions two and three. Want more time to work jobs and very few of them say they want more time for academics because they say they're already putting in a lot of time.for academics because of course there pushed to do that to stay eligible, but they they do want more time for all of the other things that make college and experience rather than just degree we are speaking with Jenna Robinson who is the president of the James G.

Martin Center for academic renewal mentioned at the top of this interview that little bit after the Martin center set the stage for this one of the state's largest newspapers did a major report on the same issue, athlete, travel, and another thing that brought up in this report was the notion that it's not just these tournaments, but also expanding conferences manage that there's a lot more long distance travel, not only in the Atlantic Coast conference and we knew about all of these other major correlates of the expanded that the up the other teams are further away. So even going to a conference game takes longer, you might miss more classes that were right, absolutely and we in looking at. I used Duke as an example and a lot of their play. Even in conference was was far away was out of state they had I think three conference games in state the rest of the more out-of-state games. I think most of them would in fact require an airplane trip, not just you know driving to a nearby state.

Looking at this change.

A lot of it just seems to be tied into this whole notion of the tailwagging the dog so to speak right the athletics is really driving this process more than this notion up.

We have students. Let's give them this athletic opportunity. It's more we got this athletic program and looks kind of act as if these people are also students right absolutely. I think that that becomes more and more true. There are a lot of Division I athletes, especially in basketball and football who are putting in enough time for this to further athletics, only to be a full-time job and so they really are students second and that that's not the way it's supposed to be. It is absolutely detrimental to their future in a very few of them make it to the NFL or the NBA and for all of those who don't and the graduation rates are lower the dropout rates are higher. The academic performance suffers, and obviously they're not getting all the other things that students are able to do on campus and not doing the networking they're not getting career services they're not doing all those things that can prepare them for a future outside of athletics. Okay, so we see that there's a problem it's been getting worse. Are there some things that you've identified the universities ought to do to help address this right will the first thing is that the night commission has been saying this for a long time, travel time needs to be decreased and one thing that the NCAA did recently was actually freeze the number of tournaments in the number of competitions and that was a few years ago. I think that a freeze is a good start but I do think we need to pull back a freeze isn't enough. I'm glad it's frozen right now I think it's a good time to talk about what is the right amount and I think that really we need to go back to what we think of the traditional sports seasons.

They shouldn't be lingering either beginning earlier kind of lingering longer into the next semester's students really do need to have some time to dedicate just to academics and I think on the colleges and universities side they need to allow students off time when they're not in season and they need to allow students to be able to count some of the athletic activities that they're doing towards their maximum hours for the NCAA visit where she know NCAA says you can only spend 20 hours a week on athletic related activities, but universities game and teams game it and so there really spending a lot more time than that. We have a brief amount of time remaining, but do you sense that there's any appetite among university leaders to do anything about this. You know I I don't think that there is it's pretty disappointing every once in a while will see a bright spot where University will pull back. Of course, there's still the Ivy League that I admire for being less in the thrall of athletics and other other conferences, but not every conference is the Ivy League, and so I think that this is really this is a problem that we need this keep chipping away at and one group that will continue chipping away at that problem is the James G. Martin Center for academic renewal. Its president is John thanks mentioned on Carolina Journal radio just if you have freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com it's one stop shopping for North Carolina's freedom movement@northcarolinaconservative.com.

You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carol manager.com reporting and quick takes Carolina Journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education from the James G.

Martin Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all in one place North Carolina conservative.com that's North Carolina spelled out conservative.com North Carolina conservative.com.

Try it today. North Carolina is changing not just day-to-day but outward to our minute to minute and 2nd to 2nd, how can you keep up with the changes, especially the ones that affect you, your family, your home, your job, make the John lot foundation and Carolina Journal part of your social media diet on Facebook like the John Locke foundation like Carolina Journal. Follow us on Twitter at John Locke in the sea and at Carolina. Journal news, insights and analysis you'll find nowhere else.

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Don't forget log on to smile.amazon.com today by something nice and help defend freedom. Support the John Locke foundation will Qubec to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko guy UNC system Pres. Margaret spellings says issues surrounding economic mobility help keep her up at night. She explained during a recent speech in Charlotte. The American dream holds that talent and hard work lead to a better life that those willing to put in the effort can prosper when that belief begins to foray. We all suffer.

Our politics become more trouble our common future. More clouded without confidence in the American dream. We will fail to tap the talent we must have thrive. Economic mobility is the defining issue of our time. If you look at a map of economic mobility across the country, region from southern Virginia through Mississippi is an unhappy outlier children born into poverty in the South have strikingly low odds of bettering their lives in North Carolina.

Our metro areas ranked among the worst in the nation for upward mobility, and right now, Charlotte is at the bottom of that list. Does this mean sending more kids to college.

I'm not a believer in college for all and I don't know any university president who is but I am a believer in education and training beyond high school for nearly everyone, whether that's in school on the job or through military service. We are steadily losing jobs for high school graduates and gaining work that requires more education. Our universities must support apprenticeship programs grant credit for military service and partner with employers to offer on-the-job training that counts towards a degree or credential.

We must broaden options because the students we serve today are more diverse than ever. Any vision that's overly focused on providing for your degrees to 18-year-olds, fresh out of high school won't cut it today 40% of North Carolina's college students are 22 years of age or older. Many are already working. Many have kids and are looking to us to help them get better paying jobs to support their families. 36% of North Carolina's college students are enrolled online, or in a blend of in person and online classes. A little over half are in for your colleges but 46% are enrolled into your programs to Pres. Margaret spellings tell to new group. The my future in C commission you will help address her concerns about economic mobility, more Carolina Journal radio in a moment where doubling down on freedom at Carolina to radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes and@johnlocke.org/podcast headlock is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina Journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time double down with us. Listen to Carolina Journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to headlock@johnlocke.org/podcast or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina Journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation will Qubec Carolina Journal radio why Michiko guy North Carolina is considering major changes to its system of selecting judges, but at least one national expert likes the system.

The state uses now elections with party labels. Chris Bono was Prof. of political science at the University of Pittsburgh.

There is no perfect way of selecting judges. Each method of judicial selection has its pros and skulls.

It all depends upon what you North Carolina wander courts what they want their judges to do and how they want the judges to be so nothing I or anyone else to say. Today is going to be a perfect system always drawbacks and so well at his judicial elections are partisan elections how the not as bad as people say you may think is faint praise in the sense that there are a lot of virtues to having judicial elections there are three primary virtues that I want touch on here. The first is information we know that judges appellate court judges, policymaking judges doing very difficult cases they deal with difficult cases where the law is not clear when the facts are not clear.

That's why we have judges to interpret and we know little judges and conservative judges view the law differently and that's also okay is it okay that we all know this.

The public knows as well and doesn't erode legitimacy of the court's know is we can pretend like judges or robots.

They go in and they so here's the law is the facts of the common ideology and policy preferences don't level all of your lawyers know you going to trial. You look WC the judges unhappy with the bias of the bad people as they view the law differently.

They view their role differently.

Why not provide that information to the simplest when provided information to others is when a party ID of the candidates. This is true at all levels of Jewish and design a system to have maximum judicial dependence like the federal system is still plays a role where Carly could get a vote because he wasn't qualified, not because people thought it was a bad judge because the law differently than the majority. The Senate wanted to know which had 40 votes against the bad judge because he is a you know but because of how he views the law. These people good, honest, fair-minded people view the law differently given that politics is involved in judging politics is about judicial selection with partial elections would put that up front provide voters with information nonpartisan elections how voters trying to make a choice about a vitally important piece of information for that's not that's Chris Bono, Prof. of political science at the University of Pittsburgh. He says there's another advantage like to partisan elections.

They offer voters a choice provide voters with meaningful choice in a way that retention elections do not retention elections. You only get to decide whether the current judgment in his or her job replacements can replace it could be worse followers. I can remember I was giving these talks in Nevada in 2010 when Harry Reid was running for election Harry Reid's approval ratings back then were like in the 30s people to know why.

Is this crazy person and Sharron angle will I believe in UFOs and aliens so as to retention lost but it was running and Sharron angle she's nuts right now it's meaningful choice allows voters to decide who should be on the bench, not just so mythic all person judges to run retention elections because I get paid against nobody get paid against some ideal judge or some unknown quantity makes it very far. It's also unfair because with partisan elections. Your filing deadlines.

So if you're running for judge.

You know by certain date of your order. Decide the campaign to ramp up your campaign to raise money.

Not so retention elections is no opponent so you can think you're sailing through to retention. No problems in opposing the Jewish before some group drops in which we don't advise against 95 would not are you running as nobody but you have it in the preparation to run an effective campaign to defend yourself because you think you so retention elections are that on a number of levels. Bono says partisan judicial elections also boost transparency.

It puts the part of the politics of front involved in so we could have a commission system we have stuff so we were a bunch of legally right go into a room right and believes no more than everyone else in the list of judges comes out for Pope not very transparent system or less transparent. Was not very transparent right is very skewed in one direction of the politics of front let voters decide for themselves. Explore the site is the founders of judicial elections actually don't decrease legitimacy of the court rigidly and states that had been for a long time because of the subject are selected as the cost of doing business. And yes, it's messy. Yes, sometimes good judges lose special for any office legislature is true for judges. The governor, but all the options of the alternatives. It's the alternative that maximizes the amount of information promotes the maximum transparency gives the voters the highest and who sits on the bench. Bono says removing party labels from judicial selection doesn't remove partisanship is important to remember that remove remove partisan edification from the ballot does not remove partisan decision-making just simply secures it from the voters. That is if a judge is inclined to make decisions based on what his policy preferences are her policy preferences are, or according to their political party affiliation morels there still going to do that, regardless of whether we provide that information to others. The question is we want to provide voters with information or Bono also tackled some myths about judicial appointments uses most states allow appointed judges to be reappointed. What's the result will be found in those days is those judges are less likely to engage in judicial review strike down laws legislature. Why, because it would be reappointed, so there's accountability even in appointed systems is not whether voters but spotting other political elites who judges depend upon for their reappointment so we don't get to some kind of magical independence, perfect systems elections there might be one more reason for lawmakers to consider maintaining the status quo every year and states across the country. Bills are introduced change how judges are selected to good to pass, you pass them all the time. So one of the things I would just do whatever else it.

If you are concerned about the legitimacy of the court. Pick something and stick to it for a while right to change it every time a new political party about right is that I will do more to erode legitimacy records anything else you do, that's Chris Bono, University of Pittsburgh political scientist and national expert on judicial selection. He offered these comments during a recent Federalist Society panel discussion in Raleigh North Carolina drawn radio a commitment to truth and transparency in government.

That is the mission of Carolina journal and we are proud to deliver and now proud to tell you the North Carolina press Association has honored to members of our team with awards for reporting and writing, that's right, we really do deliver award-winning journalism we shine the light on government spending, reveal the truth about boondoggles and dig deep into programs paid for with your tax money. We keep you in the know in a way other media outlets don't in our reach and influence are growing all of our outlets. We reach more than 1 million N. Carolinians each month so make sure you're one of them. Our monthly print edition arrives in your mailbox every month. Our online daily news site Carolina journal.com has fresh stories, opinion pieces, and more. The award-winning Carolina journal team I reporters make government accountable to you.

Call 1866 JL F INF oh for your free subscription, welcome back to Carolina to radio I'm Donna Martinez, a Wall Street Journal editorial is echoing John lock foundation recommendations for making it easier to earn a living. The journals editorial copy. I have our next guest, John Sanders, who writes that if we really want to lift up north Carolinians we should reform our state occupational licensing laws.

The subject on which the Wall Street Journal agrees. John of course is the director of regulatory studies for the lock foundation. He joins us now John, welcome back.

Only state occupational licensing help those of us who are not analysts like you understand what that really is. Occupational licenses generally.

Basically it's entry regulation. If you want to get into a particular field, the state has decided that you need a license for you cannot legally do work in that field without receiving that license in order to get the license you have to attend a set amount of classes fulfill academic credits. Most most cases.

Sometimes you have to also take several entrance exams. It could be one. It could be 3 to 8 depending and those of course require a lot of time spent studying them in monies sitting fees and you have to drive to where those tests are gonna be hell. Sometimes you will have to fulfill apprenticeship hours and do some work beforehand before your love to get the license and you also have to fulfill in many cases you have to pass a criminal background check or just a good character background check to satisfy the license board and then pay all the fees of the licensing boards. John, one might think well that sounds frankly kinda reasonable if you're talking about, say, a physician or nurse is someone for whom you want to make sure that they have a level of expertise and skill because if they mess up. It could be catastrophic consequences. But occupational licensing in North Carolina and other states goes well beyond physicians. Oh yes, and in 2000 for the Council. State governments found that there were over 1100 different occupations that relicensed in at least one state.

The interesting thing about that is only about 5% relicensed in all the states only about 60 of those occupations are licensed in all 50 states, which means that there's a great deal of disagreement among the states over what really should be licensed or were there should be freedom and that occupation here in North Carolina. What types of job categories are we talking about that require these set the training the fees. All of this expertise in order to just go try to make a living. There's plenty thing that is something that you think about like the medical professions but then also you license to braided hair braided hair you need new license to to be a preschool teacher need a license to do a lot of trades. A lot of the construction trades. For example there there just tons and tons of different thing landscapers lives. Yes I think are engineered into his whole regulatory regimes over 700 tasks that require licenses to do and and occupations are about 180 so will the Wall Street Journal recently picked up on this and wrote this editorial that you brought to the attention of your colleagues at the lock foundation and this focused on the state of Nebraska and the fact that lawmakers there are trying to take a look at their stage regime of all of this licensing and Johnny know when you read the Wall Street Journal editorial. You said you know what sounds pretty familiar, because in fact been recommending a lot of the reforms that Nebraska's looking. What struck me in reading that editorial is everything that the Wall Street Journal editors pulled out praise about it were things that we had specifically recommended in her policy position on on occupational licensing so it it would have periodic review of 20% in this bill.

20% of of the licenses would come under review every year. So within five years. All the licenses would be reviewed by legislative committee review just to make sure that are still necessary.

Or maybe they're not. Maybe you could get rid of line or modify one right modify the cost of those in other wonders how does it align with other states. If this if another state licenses. How does it allow that states license to transfer how does it align with the costs of those other states. So it looks at it from that angle and also it asks.

This is something that we need the license or are there other ways that the state can accomplish the regulatory goal of ensuring safety and quality of the work without putting in entry regulation which keeps one from actually getting work done. That's an interesting point because you've written a lot on this issue about the least restrictive approach. I think that's what you're you're getting at here because clearly people want to make sure that if someone is providing some sort of technical service for them that it's quality work, but you point out that when it comes to a public safety there other ways to do it tell us about that will, for example, you if if you're worried about it. It just depends on the kind of work.

If you're worried about third-party affects or downstream damages. And that's for thing, then you would wonder have something like bonding or word insurance would actually need to go all the way to licensing if if the concern would be taken care of by having bonding or insurance, or if you're worried about cleanliness than you would just require inspections if you worried about, for example something where where consumer wouldn't have any idea of how to judge the quality of the work, then you would require certification or sometimes that's a case for getting insurance reimbursement so you would have the state require an honor. Voluntary certification of these things other. If you worried about fly-by-night providers coming in the sometimes is of concern after major storms hit and there's roofing needs to be done or or driveways of the things need to be cleared.

Then you have registration with the Secretary of State and then you also strengthen the state's law against fraudulent practices, deceptive trade practices.

Sounds as if you are recommending consequences for people who don't provide the quality of product or service that they have contracted with the customer to provide and that's kind of on on the end of the process versus trying to make it really, really tough for people to get into the industry in the first place right in and that's way we approach almost all of the businesses in endeavors in this statement we we allow the government to enforce on the backend of things mean. If you have a bad experience with the provider with a service provider, you're free to take him to court you have the tort and the government is is involved in that aspect of it. Jan I remember when I was a kid and my mom would be in the kitchen.

It was something called the good housekeeping seal of approval and as an adult now and then I seen underwriters laboratories on on different things are those examples of what you're talking about. Those are other examples of private market.

Filling a role, and the nice thing about living in this time as we have social media. Good housekeeping seal of approval is big but what about the Facebook seal of approval. When you find out if your friends and neighbors have had a positive experience or negative experience with a local provider company doesn't matter what you take those things the hard and there to know it and it's just that form of communication that everybody gets to let someone else know lots of people know I had a good experience.

I had a bad experience and that tends to level out the marketplace. In a lot of ways. Lastly, John. How prevalent is this in North Carolina and how much of a problem and a challenge. Is it for lawmakers will North Carolina has more licenses in most states were on the upper end of aggressive licensing. Unfortunately, in the last few years, especially since the GOP is taking control of the legislature. We have not seen licensing grow and I'm hoping that weekends in the next few years.

Join a few other states have actually turned around and started to free up there occupations are love to see that here you can read all of John's working at John Locke.John think that's all the time we have for the program this week. Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch.

Okay I'm Donna Martinez. Join us again next week for another edition of Carolina Journal radio Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John Locke foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation including donations support programs like Carolina Journal radio sending email to development John Locke done call 66J 11 info 166-553-4636 Carolina Journal radio of the John Locke foundation airline is remarketing Carolina run system.

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