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Carolina Journal Radio No. 780: Pictures help place budget choices in perspective

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
April 30, 2018 12:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 780: Pictures help place budget choices in perspective

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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April 30, 2018 12:00 am

When legislators return to Raleigh in May, their primary task involves adjusting the $23 billion General Fund budget for 2018-19. As they approach that task, the John Locke Foundation has compiled a new document that should help them place budget decisions in context. It’s dubbed the “North Carolina Budget in Pictures.” Senior Fellow Joseph Coletti explains how those pictures will help policymakers and the public make sense of a complex document. As the 2018 election season heats up, veteran political strategist Marc Rotterman is analyzing key factors that will shape the outcome of critical contests at ballot boxes across the country. The host of UNC-TV’s “Front Row with Marc Rotterman” confronts the prospect of a Democratic wave election, and he addresses the issue of whether 2018 elections will end up serving as a referendum on the first two years of the Trump administration. State agencies are offering some pushback after a legislative study recommended scaling back the number of supervisors throughout state government. The committee overseeing the General Assembly’s Program Evaluation Division recently debated the issue. You’ll hear highlights. The word “liberal” has undergone massive transformation over the past 200 years. During a recent Hayek Lecture at Duke University, economist Deirdre McCloskey of the University of Illinois at Chicago urged a redefinition of “liberal.” McCloskey would like to see the word used to describe those who value liberty, not those who prefer government action in most public policy debates. The National Council on Teacher Quality has released its latest rankings of the top teacher-preparation programs in North Carolina. Terry Stoops, the John Locke Foundation’s vice president for research, scours the rankings for clues about ways the University of North Carolina system can produce higher-quality teachers for classrooms across the state.

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From Cherokee to current attack from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most public policy events and issues welcome the Carolina Journal, radio, luggage, coca during the next hour Dr. Martinez that I will explore some major issues affecting our state should North Carolina expect a blue wave this year's elections will voters heading to the polls cast their votes based on Donald Trump, a veteran North Carolina political strategist addresses these and other key election questions.

Recent report suggests North Carolina state government has too many supervisors but state agencies have been pushing back your here are highlights from a recent legislative debate on the topic. The word liberal has undergone major changes in the last 200 years. You hear from one recent Duke University speaker who would like to restore the original meeting that will highlight a new report. The greatest teacher preparation programs at colleges across North Carolina.

Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline the tax filing deadline is past and by now you have most likely paid your state tax bill for 2017 effort folks seeing how much we actually paid to the state makes us wonder how that money is being spent. Joe Colletti is senior fellow for the John lock foundation. He's a fiscal policy analyst as well, which means he is the guy who has the answers to that question Joe welcome back to the program. Glad to be here alright so the average tax bill in North Carolina. Those of us who pay personal income tax how much is going into state coffers. That's the form .8 million people in North Carolina who pay tech who file taxes, the average payment is about $2500 and so to answer the question that you started with. Where does that money go the three biggest places where it goes or education, healthcare and public safety with the biggest portion of that being in K-12 education followed by universities and Medicaid. In fact, the education gets a huge chunk of the overall operating budget. What's the percentage about to give people a sense of how big and how much we spend on all types of education right so of the $2500. So I'm sorry to be doing methods that talk about 60% of the of the total total versus general fund is that that's the best North Carolina taxpayer portion because what we don't talk about it when looking at what North Carolina spends what we need to include is the federal funds that come in and so Medicaid which is is a mention about the same amount as universities when you when you look at the general fund.

When you add in $10 billion worth of federal funds that becomes the largest item in total spending, but comes to just the monies that we paid North Carolina that's that's K-12 education is by far the and Joe just to help people understand that further we talk about that average of $2500 M. That's the average amount that the average North Carolina pays in and state taxes so education itself would take up $1452 of that 2500 and then when you break it down further. You're talking about $984 that those two K-12 317 to the University system and hundred and 22 to community colleges, so it is a huge portion of the budget, but second in line is Health and Human Services.

Tell us what makes up that amount of money the biggest portions of the health and we broken out human services from the rest of health and in this table so the biggest portion of that is is Medicaid which is at the 317 that you mention for universities, the Lord, the next biggest chunk of that is mental health which is $76 and look health and a few other areas also get some some of that funding Joe we hear a lot about Medicaid.

In fact, you analyze and write about it. As to others here at the lock foundation. Why is it such a huge chunk of the budget is covered by this but it's about 20% of North Carolina's population is that when but when talking about who is who and how much you end up being two different things have most of the money gets spent on the elderly and those with disabilities who need long-term care.

Most of the people who are on Medicaid. Though our our our children and moms of children. So families that are that are of low income. So when we put together the education piece of the budget and the health piece including Medicaid and mental health point that is a there's not a whole lot left to cover everything else there's not and what once you add in public safety. You're up to 92% of this of spending the kind of troubling thing is that the next biggest item after those treatments, magnitude smaller but is still the next largest pieces is debt service and the concerning thing about that is that's where we are right now with record low interest with still low interest rates and before all of the connect and see bonds are are are brought online and so that's clinic that's going to grow over the net lease a debt service, essentially.

That said, the payments we have to make on money that we borrowed right right and you think that's gonna grow because of the bond package because the amount of debt that North Carolina's taken out has been going down over the last few years as as we been paying off debt and as interest rates are starting to rise again. That means that any money that we borrow from now on will be will be paying a higher interest rate on the state's refinance. Not a lot of the debt that it had before to lower interest rates and so any new debt is about a higher interest rate and it's on a larger amount of money Joe there might be some folks are listening and who are thinking well sounds like we don't have enough money so that means we need to raise taxes or find them other ways to pay for these things but you take a different view. You are more fiscally austere. I tell us about what your recommendations are like the term sterile mom or Dave Ramsey school that you can never out on your stupidity right so if you spend too much money the 1st foot of the first up is you have to take a look at how much money you have available and that that can be changed, but the first that that's the first step in search look to live within the means of what's there and so on education that's part of that is involves choice on healthcare that is is out of our discretion, because so much of that is paid by the federal government, and we've begun taking a look at public safety, particularly within the prison system. We've done a lot of work in the legislature and the gotten Gov. Perdue actually seven years ago I had the Justice reinvestment act which helps bring spending down and move people out of prison and into lower level of of of of of handling of their crimes that allows them some more opportunity to reestablish their lives, but so those are some of the things that were that were taking a look at them in within each area.

It's a question of how does the money gets spent. Not a slice question of how much.

But how, how does it spent and you clearly believe that there are different ways to be more efficient with with the money that is being paid in my taxpayers so that it's not an issue of trying to find more money is just. I spent time in the legislature's been really good over the past few years they've been keeping spending down at about 2.5% growth which allows for a lot more which provides more room to set that money aside to take care of those long-term needs, pensions, healthcare for retirees and and savings for the next rainy day Joe, we know that the state has been on a very positive economic track for the last several years. Acetyl a lot of tax reforms, tax cuts we've seen regulatory reforms as well.

What happens sometimes it as you have described some of your writing is that sometimes a complacency set since I hate things are going well, and maybe people are thinking let's spend a little bit more, your cautioning lawmakers to not do that yet, especially with the with what were taking a look at with the revenues that should be coming in over the over the years I had been with the value of the of the tax reforms that have been in place and that that will be taking effect in January 2019. I will really do they really do need to keep that spending at that same level of 2.5% into the future.

That is the only way to have sustainable spending and be able to take care of the other needs. Joe, you have also put together a really helpful document called the budget in pictures. Answer really easy way for people to visually understand all sorts of things about the state budget, and where the money comes from and how it's being spent gives kind of event a few things that you like people to maybe take a look at if they go to John and click on budget and pictures first place that take a look would be at the front of the book we talk about what is state of the spending and then later on we have that that the 2.5% growth that the state has to live with and that's those are two of the places that I would begin with. It's a really interesting document and again it's very easy to understand. It's it's meant to be visual so it's it's not them a difficult read.

It's meant for folks to take a look and easily understand.

You can find that the budget in all of that data coming from our guests, Joe Colletti, who is senior fellow, same with as much North Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business. How can you tell if government is doing a good job making the right choices. Spending tax dollars wisely. Carolina tackles those questions every day. The John Locke foundation publishes Carolina journal imprint each month and on the web each you'll find exclusive investigative reports on topics. No one else is covering what else a rundown of the best new stories, editorials and opinion columns in North Carolina. John Hood's daily Journal new stories and important public and the voices of the newsmakers themselves.

Carolina journal radio imprint on the air and on the web.

You can find the information you welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Michiko guy are we for a blue wave this election season will the election serve as a referendum on Donald Trump's presidency who was enthusiastic about voting. Our next guest is paying attention to all of these questions.

Mark Waterman is a longtime political strategist and host of the weekly program front row with Mark Redman UNC TV program here. So this is good to be a big election where you focusing most your attention when there's a lot at stake. Obviously, whether the Democrats can retake the house first 20 4C margin right now Democrats are targeting. They say they're going to play and 60 congressional district. I would say that realistically the target about 60 districts bought into the blue wave yet, but there are some signals that are not good for one they lost Pennsylvania in 18 which was a special election which was a 20 point Trump district and they didn't really have a mess is a Republican Party through $12 million and you still lost a part of that was candidate had a pretty bad tenant second. The second thing I think was really bad well was bad for Republicans was the Democrat got a millennium of the Republican message pro-life pro-gun. He was just close so they're starting to find Democrats to fit the district like the old blue dog Democrats now was a strategy employed by the Clinton back in the 90s, but has been done since progress is been in charge, but a lot of Democrats are moving away from Pelosi and their talking to their district directly says not a good sign for Republicans young thing when you talk about stakes stakes are. If they do take back Democrats take back the house. I would always say the bill immediately. January go to impeach our put articles on the Florida impeach Donald Trump yet. What happens if you have the house taken over by Democrats and also the Senate that that that flips for somewhere. Well, I don't think that that's actually doable this year because I think there's more competitive. Democrats cease right now. I think Claire McCaskill probably go on in Missouri and there's lot more Democrats for reelection cycle. However, it may make a lot of Republicans tentative on the impeachment issue. If if if the Democrats retake the house we are chatting with Mark Waterman. He is the host of the weekly program front row with Mark Rodman.

You could see all you would see TV every Friday night at 830.

Also on the North Carolina channel 9 o'clock on Friday. Then again on Sunday 1230 in the 4 o'clock Saturday on CTV North Carolina channel for those more get up at 3 PM tomorrow. You can watch it at Saturday to watch watch it online. And of course were on 930 on the UNC TV North Carolina channel 12 noon on PBS CTV on Sunday. Many of opportunities to see front row with Mark Rodman during the course of the weekend, your first opportunity being 830 Friday night on you and CTV's main channel.

The elections are to be very interesting one, or get to be the main things you're looking at. Between now and November.

Well, can Republicans sell the tax gender so to the blue-collar Excel to the middle class, I received an effective measure message out of Republicans. That's a problem for them. They've got to get down to the blue-collar. I think there's a real disconnect between the Democrat Republican consultants who make a lot of money in DC don't understand the middle class or or or or frankly the blue-collar out in middle America with the call flyover country gender spent $12 million trying to get a message in Pennsylvania 18. I think they have to reach the blue-collar would say I would have blue-collar women say we got more take-home pay. Those are the people who run the household and they haven't felt yet or not be told that effectively that it's working. Speaking of messaging you mentioned earlier Democrats moving away from Nancy Pelosi. It seems as if Republicans much of their campaign has been a vote for us so you don't get Nancy Pelosi is that effective message.

I really don't think that's effective message.I think they have to have a positive message after what's transpired, Trump has a very positive message rollback regulations that have something to sell, which is effectively a tax cut. They rolled cut taxes on the middle class businesses are started a couple taxes on individuals Corporation starting the work hard more people that stores not be a cook told him to one of my old mentors who could carry this ball is no longer with us. Jack Had a positive message. We have no Jack, I will turn the Republican Party at this time that has been one of the challenges for Republicans for for quite a while's coming up with that good positive message you see anyone on the horizon there who really can do this sort of thing you know I've encouraged Mark Meadows to do that and other folks I got to carry the ball because you can't just be against Nancy Pelosi and on the other hand, Democrats just can't resist. They have to have a mesh I don't know today what the Democratic message is for the Republican message be quite frankly going into the midterm. One thing I will say though Republicans be smart to localized every race. Some people listening to us are probably thinking I just hope how big a deal.

Are these midterms should we really be paying attention. Well you know what happens is you know Michelle, I say this is most significant election of our time, but for Donald Trump.

It really because if you start to years of impeachment: in 2020. Nothing will get done in Washington so most would advocate that actually but I do think you're looking at illegal immigration looking at making the tax cuts permanent. You're looking at a foreign policy this table and frankly are I think the American people looking for more certainty from the Trump administration and not all these changes in all these turnovers 24 seven you mentioned that if you have impeachment starting there really no chance for any part of the Trump agenda to be moving during that next to year.

That also means probably harder time getting even appointments through even if they continue to have a slow walk to the appointment so far where profligacy is one thing I neglected to mention the lower courts, lower federal courts done an excellent job, Mitch McConnell spent a good job on the Supreme Court is likely that he might get to at least Supreme Court before court Supreme Court people through charting a course and maybe one more part of 2020 yet.

I will be an important thing so final moments when people are watching the news reading their newspapers what you think they'll be paying attention to be looking at is not be looking watch transpiring directory really helped her. Lives and what is agenda items that are helping their lives and I'll be looking at the economy and as you know, if the economy is doing well. That's probably a prerequisite.

That's pretty good as probably a bellwether for Republicans. If the economy is doing real well. One thing I failed to mention that I will say this managed trade with the presence trying to do and have a very adverse and I wash at a very adverse reaction for the economy was good to be a very interesting election season one person is going to be paying very close attention to it and talking about it each week on you and CTV is our guest, Mark Rodman. He is the host of the weekly program. Front row with Mark Rodman.

You could see it several times during the course of each weekend starting at 8:30 PM on Friday following Washington week.

Thanks much for joining us as you love on Carolina journal radio just a mom.

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Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Mitch coca state agencies are pushing back against the proposal to reduce the number of government supervisors. The plan comes from the Gen. assembly's program evaluation, division, and director John Turk caught you Hearing there is no definition there is no standard referred but before we cellular needs to be some standards needs to be some defamation. I know I worked in several other places and North Carolina. Relatively speaking is much easier to get new positions approved gifts hours reclassified to give increased positions are here to maintain a vacancy right that's higher than average.

We don't take attrition savings off of the front end of budget and so I can tell you that there is savings out there that could be accomplished. Lawmakers echo Turk cots concerns state representative Craig Horne.

In one particular agency. I think I counted 20 well over 28 directors, all who made north of $90,000.

I couldn't figure out what they all directed I see in the same thing that other job descriptions or supervisor it says on the on the org chart so-and-so's name, supervisor and I'm it's unclear what the supervisor Sen. Chuck Edwards North Carolina ranks 32nd in terms of state employees for 10,000 citizens, meaning there are 31 states that are doing a better job than us were looking at that efficiency. That right there tells me that there something we can do different or better Sen. Randy Wells mentioned a proposed 1 to 8 ratio between supervisors and employees getting a lot of messages from administrative folks that this seems to bit of a be a bit of a legislative overreach that they don't want us looking at how they run their departments. Let's go back though in history were not talking about something that PD came up with a 1.8 ratio 1.8 ratio goes back to 1996, 22 years, five administrations ago. It was set up during the third term of governor Jim Hahn and I would argue that there's nobody in this room that knows more about the inner workings of state government. The Jim Hunt did in his third term. They said one to eight. And nobody in 22 years and five administrations is been able to hit when do we get involved having more supervision than is necessary is costing our taxpayers money. You been listening to legislators discuss a proposal to reduce the number of state government supervisors overture with more Carolina journal radio in a moment where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes headlock is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges his softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time double down with S. Listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listened Locke to remember, you can listen to or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertain both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Mitch coca. We often hear debates pitting conservatives against liberals, but those debates often misuse the term liberal that's the argument from Deirdre McCloskey, professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago in recent lecturer at Duke University, I want to try to persuade you to change the way you talk about politics and maybe the way that you think about serve, take away, I want to persuade you is to is to change the way you use the word liberal liberal. Doesn't mean what it once meant, which is an economic and social political policy for a free people where everyone's free where people are free where black people are free where where where women are free gay people.

All religions are free. That's the basic definition of the liberal is someone who believes in this free society and doesn't think that the state government is their mother, or worse, their father, McCloskey says misperceptions about the word liberal are linked to political debates about the left versus the right here is the left right axis is an argument about power some argument about how to use state power friends socialist friends want to use it to extract money from rich people say about other people and they want to have an expansive government of some sort not just of some sort of a very particular sort a redistributive government, and I want to use force to do it now this. You may if you are of the left you. So, no we don't want to use force, but if you are involved with the state government you're involved with using force classic government was Max Weber, the great German sociologist historian 1919, the state is a monopoly of legitimate violence in a certain territory. That's Prof. Deirdre McCloskey of the University of Illinois at Chicago delivering the recent Hayek lecture at Duke University. McCloskey says real liberals have a different view about the use of violence. I don't want anyone to use and that's the key to liberalism, liberalism in the correct classic definition so distorted in American politics is the theory that human beings can get along by leaving each other alone.

Mostly disdaining each other not talking to your Muslim friends or something, but by strictly leaving people alone not pushing them around. There's this violent spectrum from left to right and then there liberals the real ones in there somewhere. Axis may say they're on another planet. They believe in free exchange free speech hope for the whole of the First Amendment that they believe in letting people alone and not obstructing them not using the government to put hooks and shares in their way, which is what both conservatives and the left let's start calling them progressives sets what they want to be called are interested in doing and you know, as I said, I'm not against all government. I think that would be kinda crazy because you delete government against bad people against robbers and against force and fraud because if if we had no government. We do have war of all against all the life of man be solitary for nasty, brutish and short so II understand case for government, but you don't need to go to the Hobbesian extreme Hobbesian extreme of government of the size we have these days McCloskey place the size of the current American government in historical perspective. In 1910.

The size of the expenditures of all levels of government, added altogether in the United States was 7.5% state, local and federal 7.5%. Now it's 35%. What is this what do we get for 35% do we need to get things from the government agricultural subsidies corporate welfare large military expenditures masses of bureaucrats, state and local level, hassling people about getting licenses to braided hair is. This is not what we need in the United States.

There are 1000 occupations that require a government license 1000 hair braiding is the most egregious example I've heard of but I'm sure there are worse cases in order to braided hair.

You need to go to hair braiding school for a year or two and then you'll get if you pass the hair braiding exam. I guess it's like final exam in the course then you get to braided hair. This is a great oppression, especially the African-American community because I do a lot of hair braiding completely crazy law. McCloskey asked the Ducati.

It's to think about its own views about the use of violence in the proper role in size of government. I want you to use start thinking about what kind of society you actually want to be. Do you want liberty. And if you do consider becoming a liberal.

Doesn't mean being cruel and nasty to the poor fact is the San Francisco contractor, a true liberal John Stuart Mill Adam Smith. They were very generous towards the poor and wanted to help the poor.

They wanted to actually help the poor virtue signal, which is one of the big problems with wit with the left and the right virtue, signaling instead of adopting policies that would actually help for that. Deirdre McCloskey, professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago in recent Hayek lecture at Duke University McCloskey once free market limited government supporters to reclaim the label liberal will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment commitment to truth and transparency in government. That is the mission of Carolina journal and we are proud to deliver and now proud to tell you the North Carolina press Association has honored to members of our team with awards for reporting and writing, that's right, we really do deliver award-winning journalism we shine the light on government spending, reveal the truth about boondoggles and dig deep into programs paid for with your tax money. We keep you in the know in a way other media outlets don't in our reach and influence are growing all of our outlets. We reach more than 1 million N. Carolinians each month so make sure you're one of them. Our monthly print edition arrives in your mailbox every month.

Our online daily news site Carolina has fresh stories, opinion pieces, and more. The award-winning Carolina journal team I reporters make government accountable to you. Call 1866 JL FINF04 your free subscription, welcome back to Carolina journal radio Donna Martinez, the national Council on teacher quality has released a report on teacher preparation and it turns out that several North Carolina university teacher training programs rank very high on the report, Dr. Terry stoops is here to explain who and why he, of course, the director of education studies, the vice president for research for the John lock foundation. Thank you so first of all, and how does this report actually measure teacher education teacher training.

Sure, the national Council teacher quality looked at three main variables.

The first is admission criteria. In other words, how do these programs determine who gets admitted to the teacher education program in the first place.

The second thing that they look that was knowledge. In other words, one third minutes of the program. What they learn they learn the basics of math of English and the content knowledge they need to be successful when in the classroom and the third thing they look at his practice, and this would cover things like their student teaching and classroom management. In other words, how do they handle kids when the real learning exactly right.

These really are the three essential components to really training a good teacher is not only making sure that you have the right people but that they learn the right things and then they know what to do in the classroom in the right way to be a teacher once they get there. You really you drill down into this report and you found some interesting information about several North Carolina universities whose doing well.

According to this report.

Well, it looks like. First of all, that are private colleges and universities are doing very well and we talk so much in the state about the UNC system schools just because are so large and there are so many students that come out of there with teaching degrees that we tend to overlook some of our private colleges and universities, Elon University, for example, High Point University did really really well in this in this ranking. Meredith College also did very well. That's not to say that some of our large state universities did not do well. Also, Appalachian State, for example, has a very good teacher training program is Carolina did very well in some of the categories but it was really the private colleges and universities that excelled and the programs that were focused on by this study are underground or undergraduate and graduate programs in education and special education programs look at any one of those. So the fact that our private colleges and universities did so well when looking at across a number of different types of programs and number of different types of universities really is a testament to the fact that there some innovation going on there that is often overlooked when we talk about teacher training North Carolina. When you mentioned the three components that really made at the analysis them in the ranking in this report.

I thought the first was really interesting he said essentially who they admit into the teacher education programs. Are we able to tell it all from this report, or perhaps other things that you have been reading what is on the characteristics that really lead to an effective teacher in the classroom that is really the golden question right there. It is hard to quantify what combination of characteristics combined to create a great teacher in the classroom. For example, you can have an incredibly intelligent person that knows all the content knowledge but gets in front of kids and can't teach it all and those kids run roughshod as they try to teach, you can have someone that is very personable, but doesn't have the content knowledge necessary to be able to communicate to those students an effective way be able to teach them so that they learn what they need. According to state standards. So it is very difficult to quantify mostly want to look to make sure that those five fundamental skills are in place before their admitted to teacher education program.

In other words, do they know the basics of computation to the rights they have reading comprehension skills. Another which want to make sure that they have a solid foundation going into the teacher education program so that by the time they come out of it.

They have developed the skills and knowledge necessary to be an effective classroom teacher and then I guess the first several years in the classroom.

Really, that's where the rubber meets the road, so to speak, and you'll find out if someone is effective and be if they even like being in a classroom. A lot of people even us for several years.

That's right, they simply find that it's not for them or they have conflicts with other teachers are most likely the administrators you know. But being a former classroom teacher myself, I can tell it's a real shock going from game University to a classroom because there is a disconnect, often with what you learn in one place, as opposed to another. In other words, you go to a teacher education program, you have a very you taught a very idealized version of what classroom teaching is all about you step foot into a classroom and it's a whole different world so and I think those who run teacher education programs know that the key is making sure I believe that they didn't have the fund foundational skills and knowledge to be able to build on what they learn in the classroom as they become a classroom teacher now after those first three or four years they get their feet under them. Teacher finds that it's easier it's not easy but it becomes easier the longer you're in the classroom you start to develop some of those skills that you first learn in your teacher education program Terry separate from the report we been talking about from the national Council on teacher quality.

I know that you have been doing a lot of analysis in writing about other programs outside of university teacher training schools and you've written a lot about teach for America. What is it that makes teachers who are trained under that program teach for America so effective when they get into the classroom.

This is really great time and because it's those elements that the national Council teacher quality looked at that really ties into what makes teach for America so successful its admissions criteria. In other words, make sure that the right people are admitted to the program and it's those foundational knowledge and skills.

Being able to have candidates that know the subject that they are teaching that have a strong background in the content to be able to communicate that content to the children so the same idea applies to both and I think the national Council, teacher quality, would agree that we can look at a program like teach for America to give us guidance on how to strengthen teacher education programs and really the way to do that is to make sure that we admit the right people teach them the right things and show them the right way to conduct themselves in the classroom. That sounds like it could be really tough when you are an admissions person for an education school because when you hear teachers taught many of them talk about it as a calling is something that they they feel compelled to do. They want to be in public service, and that's how some some teachers at least Hewitt. So what you say to someone who says I really want to be a teacher but based on the criteria in order to be effective at teacher. They may be choosing the wrong field, how we do that well that is difficult because people do have the ability to make the decision whether to go in the profession or not. I think the key is, is to make sure that those who are in the workforce and decide later on that. Maybe teaching was for them to have alternative programs to give a strong transition for those who are in the nonprofit or private sector to build a go back into the classroom and become a teacher.

We find that a lot of times that there are folks that regret not getting that state certification for teaching. They should be able to do that fairly easily.

Whether they're transitioning from, say, private sector job or even the military being able to go back into the classroom and be a classroom teacher. So the fact that we don't get them the first time around in the teacher education program doesn't mean they're lost forever. It just means that we need to find better ways to get them into the classroom.

When they finally decide that it is for them. It's a very interesting study in our guess is been writing about it we been talking to Dr. Terry stoops.

He is the John Mark foundation's vice president for research report is from the national Council on teacher quality looking at teacher education program. Terry, thank you, thank you. Appreciate you being with us and of course you can read all of Terry's analysis, work that is all the time we have for the program this week. Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch. Okay Donna Martinez come back again next week, another edition of Carolina Journal radio Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John Locke to learn more about the John Locke foundation including donations support programs like Carolina Journal radio sending email to development John Locke 66 GLM info 166-553-4636 Journal radio nation airline is maintained.

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