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Carolina Journal Radio No. 795: Popular ‘socialists’ don’t fit the word’s definition

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
August 13, 2018 12:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 795: Popular ‘socialists’ don’t fit the word’s definition

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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August 13, 2018 12:00 am

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders and New York congressional candidate Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez describe themselves as socialists. But neither one fits the classic definition of “socialist.” Roy Cordato, John Locke Foundation senior economist, distinguishes the two politicians from traditional socialists and explains why their policy goals would not lead to institutionalized socialism. Most of consider ourselves to be law-abiding citizens. But we might be breaking laws without our knowledge, thanks to the problem of overcriminalization. James Copland, senior fellow and director of legal policy at the Manhattan Institute, explains the problems created when a state has too many crimes on its books. Copland emphasizes the negative impact for small business owners who might face criminal charges when they run afoul of complicated regulations. North Carolina could be leading the nation in educational achievement if it had joined Florida years ago in launching reform efforts. Former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush delivered that message during a recent visit to Raleigh. You’ll hear Bush’s recommendations for N.C. policymakers interested in pursuing reforms. A congresswoman from North Carolina is leading a new charge against unfunded federal government mandates. The U.S. House of Representatives recently approved Republican Rep. Virginia Foxx’s legislation targeting unfunded mandates. You’ll hear highlights from Foxx’s speech defending the proposal on Capitol Hill. The N.C. School Boards Association and local school boards across the state are heading back to court to get more money from state government. Terry Stoops, John Locke Foundation vice president for research and director of education studies, explains why the school boards are turning to the judicial branch to help secure more funding.


From chair to current attack from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio I Michiko got during the next hour Donna Martinez that I will explore some major issues affecting our state. You might be breaking a North Carolina law without even knowing it.

That's thanks to the problem of overwork for metallization national expert shares his insights about the topic former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush recently offered North Carolina leaders some ideas about education reform you hear highlights from his remarks.

A North Carolina congresswoman is leading the latest campaign against unfunded federal government mandates you learn why will discuss the state school boards Association's latest trip, the court to get more money for North Carolina's public schools. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline United States Sen. Bernie Sanders in New York congressional candidate Alexandria Casey of Cortez are emerging stars in the Democratic Party.

They describe themselves as socialists. But the question is, are they really socialists.

Dr. Roy Coronado's Senior economist for the John Locke foundation. He writes it real clear that there is really no evidence they really are socialists and he's here to explain why what the difference is right. Welcome back to the program. Good to be back on okay so we are hearing and reading a lot of things that say the Democratic Party is moving to the left back. Socialism is now part of a growing wing of the party but you say not really know. I would argue that oh what they are on unabashed welfare status okay that they fully embrace the welfare state and one expanded much you know every aspect of of both our economic and really are private lives but do not socialists. Okay you say will. How is that yeah well traditionally. Socialism has it has meant to some degree or another. The nationalization of industry, government owned industry okay the government owns the means of production.

If you look at traditional definitions of social synthesis your meeting. Things like a government owned airline going on in our company exactly okay in fact if you look historically, the all the all the quote great socialist nations right like North Korea and Venezuela and Cuba and the USSR and China nationalized industries and not only those that use it Willows or dictatorship sub but even even Britain after World War II, the elective socialist government what they do. They started nationalizing the energy industry. The iron industry the coal industry and and out and the healthcare industry since neither Sanders nor Cortez really haven't advocated doing any of that. I mean is nothing less than nationalized Google I think they've talked about what they call Medicare for all. Right and get closer to it. Well it's interesting because he called a socialized medicine, Medicare, Medicaid, are single payer systems are not socialized medicine okay.

In Britain they have socialized medicine.

The government owns the hospitals the government owns the means of production in the socialist system in healthcare. It would mean what Britain has government owns the hospitals, doctors are government employees and so on.

This is a means of this is payment okay so the government is taking over the payment system but they're not only the means of production, the hospitals will still remain private because I private, nonprofit, whatever they are, doctors will continue to work for where they work for, but won't be government employees really the model if they want socialized medicine. The model is the Veterans Administration okay VA hospital VA hospitals socialized medicine. They are owned by the government, doctors are employed by the government. The administration of those hospitals are government employees and so on is socialized medicine. What they really should be saying is we want VA for all okay not Medicare fraud if they truly want socialized medicine.

This is why say they are excreting to the extent that they want government control and very expansive unvarnished welfare state, but that is not socialism. What's interesting Roy is that you go on in the piece that you wrote for real clear also that there is a term for use of Sen. Sanders and a congressional candidate.

Tell Casey of Cortez. What is it, well exactly what I think you can tell you what the term is on me to how I came across that I was doing some research on the economics of fascism and what I coming across is this word which describes the nature of all all the fascist economy Mussolini in Italy Hitler and you're in Germany and so on. And the word is is a French word it's it's Duragesic DIR I GIS and and is neat but basically first to a system where property titles and the means of production are in private. He was okay in the sense that title to the companies and so on are are private, but it's government making all the decisions. Okay, so it government directs production government may even set wages or at least have a strong influence on what wages would be and therefore government would also predetermine almost the profit or loss of those privately owned company yes will because it we directing what they think should the direction they think the resources should go on a very broad scale.

Nothing to say we do we have subsidies for companies to come into North Carolina or whatever we're doing that exact same thing. Obviously on a much smaller scale.

Somebody like Bernie Sanders wants to to basically put that in place on a grand scale now it's it's it's the approach that was used by Franco in Spain Mussolini in Italy but it's as I say in the in the in the paper is ideologically neutral right it. What is a system where you use the power of the state to advance the goals of the state through the economy. Okay, so it doesn't matter what those goals are to could be fascist goals are to could be extreme progressive goals as they are with with Sanders and people calling themselves socialists, but the fact of the matter is, is not a system where industry is generally nationalized and in and therefore it's not socialist writer say exactly Mussolini did not nationalize industry in Italy.

Okay, he directed it and and sort of made sure what got produce was what the state wanted produced and how it got produce and all lab but in general it was not a system where we are ready, nationalize, industry, and that is in large part what what did so-called socialists are advocating in the Democratic Party. Let's talk a little bit more about these emerging stars Bernie Sanders of course I'm a holdover from the 2016 presidential election and now this sad new person on the scene and she's out of New York, Alexandria, Nicasio, Cortez, what would be the impact is based on your general assessment of knowing what their views are what would be the impact if we were to implement their views on the economy. Well, I mean the impact would be dramatically less growth. I think most of the goals would not be accomplished in terms of if the goals truly are to lift to help the poor and the lower classes. I think what what they would do is ultimately make everyone worse off, including the people are trying to make better off. It's a fascinating piece that Dr. Roy Coronado has written you can find it real clear and at John Sanders and Nicasio Cortez are not socialist is the headline so what are they writes a great piece and we encourage everyone to read it.

Thank you for joining to talk about it make you say with this much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business. How can you tell if government is doing a good job making the right choices. Spending tax dollars wisely.

Carolina tackles those questions every day. The John Locke foundation publishes Carolina journal in print each month and on the web each you'll find exclusive investigative reports on topics. No one else is covering what else a rundown of the best new stories, editorials and opinion columns in North Carolina. John Hood's daily Journal news stories and important public and the voices of the newsmakers themselves. Carolina journal radio in print on the air and on the web. You can find the information you welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Muskoka I are you a criminal one suspects that most of you are answering no butter next guest will help us address the possibility that many of us might be breaking state laws and we don't even know about James Copeland is senior fellow and Dir. of legal policy at the Manhattan Institute. He is studying the problem of over criminal is a in North Carolina walk back to the program. Thanks for having them. It's so first of all, before we get into some of the details of your research. We were talking about this general topic of over criminalization as I just mentioned what we talked about were really talking about a couple things.

One is the multiplication in the number of things that are considered criminal search.

Additional things we think about when we think about criminals are murder assaults, robbery, everyone knows these are bad, but these so-called mellow and prohibitive offenses were things that are prohibited because they are against regulatory colds aren't so self-evidently wrong. Not turning in the right for not posting the right side, and these are multiplied and multiplied and multiplied, and at the federal level is estimated more than 300,000 federal crimes and we started saying let's look at the state level. We think maybe this is having the state level II so I looked first at New York where the Manhattan Institute is located and that I looked North Carolina and lo and behold we see the same thing here. So when you're talking about the term that you used which I heard said I don't think many of our listeners have ever heard this term before what you're talking about is something that would normally we think is a government rule and this is somehow turning into a crime, just exactly the will of the Latin term used in less they saw the movie legally blonde wouldn't be on the on the lips of anyone who didn't go to law school but but but these are wrong not because they are inherently bad, like robbery, but because they violate a government rule and there may be reasons for these rules but but traditionally, you have a guilty mind as well as guilty act to be guilty of a criminal offense that's been eroded over time. At both the federal and state level so innocent individuals of small businesses. Family farms can get themselves into trouble without realizing they're doing anything wrong and is this as much a problem in North Carolina as you feared it might be when you start looking into this. Unfortunately, yes.

And it is as it is with the federal level it's it's actually impossible currently to figure out what is criminal. North Carolina actually told all the crimes. One thing we did in and use the methodology developed by Jeff well to use a professor at the school of Government UNC Chapel Hill was look at the criminal code in North Carolina and we found that cold has three has 765 sections, which is more than five times as many as the model Penal Code of the American Law Institute developed.

It's also 55% larger than Virginia does and 38% larger than South Carolina so we said this is something the legislature ought to think about, but that doesn't capture all the crimes, because a lot of crimes and other statutes in North Carolina that order the criminal code, and we looked at the rate of crime, creation of the Gen. assembly was doing been creating more than 30 crimes a year. In fact, the last we killed in 2016 they created more than 80 new crimes, but the majority of these new crimes in the criminal code there somewhere else. They may be in the fish and wildlife of the environmental laws of the health laws so it's very difficult for people to figure out doing something wrong. No granite a big business with a team of lawyers in-house counsel and fancy law firms, they can figure out the rules more or less but that doesn't leave a lot of hope for the small business, the entrepreneur, the family farmer and those are the folks that often create the most jobs.

We are chatting with Jim Copeland, Senior fellow and Dir. of legal policy at the Manhattan Institute with the criminal code that's that large.

And with crimes that are outside the criminal code and elsewhere in the general statute is it possible for anyone, even the people who know the most about the law in North Carolina to have a good sense of just what is legal and what is illegal in the state. I would say no obviously trained lawyers that work in a specific specialty will have a pretty good idea about what's legal and illegal in their specialty but but actually just reading through all of all of these and understand even if you understood everything in the statute books in North Carolina that wouldn't cover you because a lot of regulars a lot of laws create regulatory authority with various state agencies and commissioners and their rules become automatically criminal.

In fact, even professional licensing boards and we need some of these licensing boards in certain areas. I think we overdo it, but in areas like the healthcare medicine and dentistry obviously need certain licensing board.

A lot of times the state gives the rules of these licensing boards criminal effect as well. What that means is you got lots and lots of crimes in North Carolina that the legislature itself never even voted on and may not be aware that this is actually something that's considered criminal under the Roman state laws okay sweep spelled out a problem.

There are lots of crimes, including lots of crimes that no one even has any awareness of what we do about it. Well, we lay out in our reports some ideas about what I will focus on here today is one that that certain members of the Gen. assembly have have really gotten jumpstarted, but it hasn't happened yet. And then Dennis Riddell will representative from elements County has has taken some of the lead on establishing a re-codification commission of the criminal code. Now it's it's sort of an axiom in my line of work. What you are really killing idea set up a commission system is in us to be set up properly yet of the right people on it. It has to have real deadlines and it has to have come up its recommendations may be taken seriously by the legislature. Once it does that, but if you could actually clean up the cold getting rid of the crimes that don't make any sense of those that involve borrowing mules and things from the agricultural era does not use making some of the crimes that are currently crimes. Actually, civil offenses, making sure that the intent provisions are right and all the cold and and and finally just making organizer that someone could try to figure out what's criminal and what's not what's against rules and what isn't. That could go a long way so I hope the state will give that some due consideration. Is there any potential positive impact say economically to fixing this issue.

So, I think so.

It's part and parcel of the reform agenda that's been been going on that I think been quite positive. Overall, her North Carolina reducing tax rates, but in a responsible way were the fiscal budget looks good and paring down regulations when you come down the criminal law, criminal law is a bit more bite than just a civil regulation and again.

It's the small business owner is the entrepreneur of the family farmer that's knocking people figure these things out and there's a lot of evidence out there that these really create jobs and if you look at some of the fantastic job growth here in the research trying apartment Park. A lot of the jobs being created by countries that didn't exist 20 years ago you got a criminal code that puts entrepreneurs in jeopardy you're discouraging precisely the type of behavior that that generates economic growth for the whole state. When people hear about this issue.

Do they generally come on board fairly quickly and so yeah we need to do something about that.

I think so. I think once people understand what were talking about is is the proliferation of business crimes were not talking about letting violent criminals back on the streets and in fact the Manhattan Institute where I work is is is known for helping to clean up the violent crime in New York City probably realize that were talking about making this more comprehensible and and and and granite.

Let's say some of some of the folks the more progressive leaning people out there think all we really to regulate business more, but let's do it in a logical way in a way that gives people notice Jim Copeland Senior fellow and Dir. of legal policy at the Manhattan Institute. Thanks much for joining us. That unit level on Carolina journal radio just a moment. If you have freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina It's one-stop shopping. North Carolina's freedom movement and North Carolina You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and let foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education James G. Martin Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all in one place North Carolina that's North Carolina spelled out North Carolina Try it today. North Carolina is changing not just day-to-day but outward to our minute to minute and 2nd to 2nd, how can you keep up with the changes, especially the ones that affect you, your family, your home, your job, make the John lot foundation and Carolina journal part of your social media diet on Facebook like the John Locke foundation like Carolina.

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Support the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina journal radio I'm Ashoka North Carolina has modeled many of its recent education reforms on those adopted in Florida. That's good news to former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush. He recently addressed the states leaders during a luncheon event in Raleigh is long time ago graduation rate in 1998 and is great messages is that all is safe and believe is is in place and along the way. This is is all is Bush sends good data can help North Carolina adjust its education programs to meet students needs was extraordinarily Asian proponent of this was successful in a long-term basis while the child pre-k life in Florida. I warning to all of you ties or seizures is education is beginning teachers have the best score is is is always tools that are as drivers, strategies we were successful using works and what we found was one of the tools we have still exist is a is the first week of every class. You have now is as strange as you can catch up on. Also measure their home setting.

Actually, that's former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush speaking recently in Raleigh will return with more Carolina journal what about where dabbling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes headlock is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time that's listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listened Locke to remember, you can listen to head or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina journal radio I'm Ashoka North Carolina.

Congresswoman is leading the fight on Capitol Hill to strengthen rules against unfunded mandates Republican representative Virginia Fox recently debated the issue of the US House floor in 1995 Congress passed the unfunded mandates Reform Act or number to prevent the imposition of burdensome and costly federal unfunded mandates over the course of this Congress. The oversight and Government Reform committee has developed a record that clearly shows number has fallen short of its original goals. Last year the committee saw input on camera and receive several hundred responses from governors, state legislators and county officials regarding the impact of federal laws and regulations. Too often, state, local governments are confronted with the rotten choice of raising taxes on their residence or cutting services residents depend on in order to cover cost to comply with federal mandates unfunded federal mandates strain, state and local budgets and subvert the principles of American federalism, federal agencies treat states his servants to their regulatory whims, rather than as partners to consult before imposing new burdensome mandates foxes put forward House resolution 50 unfunded mandates information and transparency act, HR 50 will improve the quality of regulatory and legislative analysis and close the current loophole which allows an agency to bypass armor analysis by not issuing a notice of proposed rulemaking, according to the nonpartisan Government accountability office, 35% of major rules are issued without a notice of proposed rulemaking that means more than one third of the regulations with the greatest impact on the economy are excluded from farmers, cost-benefit and other analyses HR 50 also expansive definition of direct cost to ensure economic analysis considers forgone profits because passed on to consumers and behavioral changes requiring federal regulatory agencies and the Congressional Budget Office to include all anticipated cost and cost estimates will help ensure that analyses are complete and provide an accurate description of the full effects of regulations and legislation, HR 50 enhances transparency, accountability, and communication between the federal government and state, local, tribal, or private sector partners, Fox explained how her bill would improve the federal government's current process for creating rules HR 50 requires federal agencies to engage in a more thorough regulatory process by codifying key provisions of President Clinton's Executive Order 12866. These principles were reaffirmed by Pres. Obama in Executive Order 13563 and are consistent with Pres. trumps executive orders on regulatory reform under umbra agencies are required to consult with state, local and tribal governments in developing significant regulatory mandates. HR 50 extends this requirement to the private sector, which is similarly burdened by unfunded federal regulatory mandates.

The bill also requires independent agencies like the Consumer Product Safety Commission, the National Labor Relations Board and the Federal Communications Commission to comply with armor that's US representative Virginia Fox Republican from North Carolina and champion of the unfunded mandates information and transparency act, Fox explained.

Another benefit of the legislation, HR 50 extends judicial review to help ensure agencies carefully consider the least costly and least burdensome regulatory alternative giving courts the authority to stay regulations for noncompliance with armor. These changes are critical to achieving what Congress set out to do a number was passed in 1995 requiring greater transparency and improving analysis prior to imposing federal mandates is not a partisan goal state and local governments headed by Republicans and Democrats alike are affected by unfunded federal mandates businesses throughout the country have invested time and resources to comply with federal mandates was such a sweeping impact any decision to impose a federal mandate should, at a minimum, the transparent and based on the most comprehensive and accurate information available. Critics contend the unfunded mandates legislation could rollback too many federal rules Fox as a response. We've often heard that the most dangerous words are the most dangerous phrase in the English language is where from the federal government and we are here to help you know, I agree with that. Everywhere I go in my district I hear from people. It isn't the laws that we pass it's the regulations that implement those laws that are the biggest problems. Unfortunately, many of our colleagues on the other side of the aisle believe that government bureaucrats are the smartest people in the world. In fact, they are the smarter then the majority of the American people who make this country great. We absolutely do not want to do away with all rules and regulations. We want safe food.

We want safe drinking water. We want all of those things that help make this country great. But we want to bring some common sense and some transparency to the regulatory process.

Fox says her bill would help reduce the federal government's burden on people and their state, local governments we've heard time and again the burdens federal government imposes on state, local and tribal governments. We've also heard from businesses throughout the country, both large and small who have to forgo investments in employees and infrastructure in order to comply with these mandates Congress passed the unfunded mandates Reform Act in 1995 to require the federal government to think twice before imposing unfunded mandates and let me say that bill passed. I believe with unanimous support from both the House and the Senate, if not unanimous, it was overwhelming. Over 400 votes in the house. I believe 98 votes in the Senate. Of course, in the 23 years since passage to federal the bureaucrats in the federal government have found ways around many of those requirements, Fox recapped her argument in favor of HR 50 unfunded mandates information and transparency act. GAL is reported that 35% more than one third of major rules are issued without a notice of proposed rulemaking so that the public has no idea what is coming out in the rulemaking in advance. It's time to make sure armor works is Congress intended again. I'm fascinated sometimes by my colleagues on the other side of the aisle who don't want to take responsibility for our actions and want to give over the running of the entire government to the executive branch. It makes absolutely no sense to me.

I'm not sure why some run for office. If they don't want to take on the responsibilities legislative and regulatory decision should be made in consideration of all of the available information, not just part of it. The government should consider every option before imposing unnecessary burdens on the states, localities, and even private enterprise, that's US representative Virginia Fox Republican from North Carolina. She's defending the unfunded mandates information and transparency act.

U.S. House approved the measure by a vote of 230 to 168 will return with more Carolina journal radio with a moment commitment to truth and transparency in government. That is the mission of Carolina journal and we are proud to deliver and now proud to tell you the North Carolina press Association has honored to members of our team with awards reporting and writing, that's right, we really do deliver award-winning journalism we shine the light on government spending, reveal the truth about boondoggles and dig deep into programs paid for with your tax money. We keep you in the know in a way other media outlets don't in our reach and influence are growing all of our outlets. We reach more than 1 million N. Carolinians each month so make sure you're one of them. Our monthly print edition arrives in your mailbox every month. Our online daily news site Carolina has fresh stories, opinion pieces, and more. The award-winning Carolina journal team I reporters make government accountable to you. Call 1866 JL FINF0 for your free subscription, welcome back to Carolina journal radio I'm Donna Martinez is a legal battle over money goes back 20 years or more. And now the North Carolina school boards Association filed a $750 million lawsuit over funding it says should have been appropriated to technology in the states public schools. Dr. Terry stoops is the John Locke foundation's vice president for research. Also, the director of education studies. He's been following the lawsuit and the issues at play here and join this now. Welcome back. Thank you. What is the basis of the lawsuit here North Carolina Constitution mandates that monies from fines and forfeitures should go to public schools. And so the question really is. It is how much of that money and where does it come from exactly that should be allocated to public school. So in 1996. For example, there was a lawsuit that look into this matter to determine whether civil fines and forfeitures should also be included not just criminal fines and forfeitures and found that yes that money should be included.

In 1997 there was another part of the lawsuit that found that the state was excluding some fines and forfeitures that should have gone to the fund for technology is an ongoing battle between the agencies that collect fines and forfeitures for public schools and those school systems that believe that they're entitled to those funds and this really is a lawsuit that's just addressing that peer between 1996 and 2005 where we have several lawsuits that look to try to find out which funds in fines and forfeitures should be used for public schools and what that should be used for those funds then came into state coffers okay but they simply weren't appropriated to technology. They were used for something else. That's right, they were diverted for other purposes, and so just to give you a sense of the agencies involved were talking about Health and Human Services employment security commission transportation all of the state agencies the collect fines and forfeitures use that money for other purposes. Between 1996 and 2005. Then there was a determination that they did so in violation of the Constitution and the courts look to see how much was diverted between that time. 1996 to 2005 and found that the total was close to $750 million now. To date, only one agency has coughed up any money towards this bill will call to bill outstanding bill and that was the UNC system that contributed 18 million only a portion of what they needed to contribute to the fines and forfeitures that they were obliged to provide. In that time. What is it the school boards Association is asking for is relief. They just want agencies to come up with money are they asking the Gen. assembly to just ignore the past and appropriate more money.

They want the Gen. assembly to force the state agencies what let let let me step back. There are several options of the Gen. assembly could take care they could raise the money themselves through any number of means were allocated from other another part of the budget and provided to schools based on their enrollments or they could for state agencies to use their money to fill the gap that they failed to appropriates between 1996 and 2005. So there are several different options Gen. assembly has in the school boards Association has gone several times to the Gen. assembly and has asked them to do something about this and have failed to do so.

And the reason why the filing a lawsuit now is that they want to renew the lawsuit for another 10 years. The final determination was made in 2008 judgments last for 10 years so it was in effect for until 2018. They want to extend the judgment for another 10 years let's look at the timeline here because, based on the dates that you are mentioning then this was all known many years ago about what the court had determined so that current crop of legislative leadership really is being asked are being challenged by this lawsuit to cough up money that previous legislative leadership from a decade or more ago failed to turn over.

That's right. And not only that, that a different political party failed to turn over because now we have Republican my general assembly but a lot of this money is owed from Democratic Gen. assemblies and Democratic governor who had led state agencies that weren't paying the money that they were supposed to pay. So I think that probably has something to do with there being an unwillingness to provide these funds.

One interesting angle to is the fact that these funds may have been repaid in 22,009 or 2010 had not the great recession started, so there was a sense that there was goodness be some repayments around the time where lots of money was flowing into our public schools, but the great recession happens and so state agencies and the general assembly saw that this was one area that they could not necessarily allocate money.

That's really curious now I'm not an attorney and I may be nave about how this works but it seems to me that time. If there is a court judgment that you don't have the choice of whether or not you comply, but haven't complied that that's rights and as far as I understand that you know often, especially in civil lawsuits. You have to take the person the court to collect what the court said you are owed says gets you so and that's really what's happening here is that the matter about how much is owed and why it's has been settled and, in the school boards Association made it very clear that they're not trying to look at the merits of the case that had already been decided in the past there simply suing to get the money and they are suing with a number of school systems in order to try to come to a solution with the Gen. assembly to collect the money and if they can avoid court. I think they will be more than happy to do so as long as there's a plan for paying back the money that they believe is owed to school districts Terry over the past number of years. Then, do you recall any discussions at budget time from any legislative leaders or public school advocates, etc. I'm talking about.

Hey folks, you need to remember there's a judgment here. So put that money in or is this kind of cropping up.

Essentially, out of nowhere, after being dormant. There were plenty of discussions about ways to pay it back in one. For example, was a bill that would increase the fines for those who pass school buses or speed through construction zones and a portion of those funds would go back to be paying back the 700 and and $50 million that has been owed, so there have been ideas floated and bills proposed to try to find a way to pay back this money, but every time it would get down to addressing the issue of whether that should be included in the budget and never found its way into the budget and not only that the school boards Association has also asked the Gen. assembly on occasions to put together a committee or some sort of commission would look at a way of paying back this debts over any number of years in the Gen. assembly has not been willing to do so. Probably because it's not necessarily the highest thing on their priority list, but because also I think that this is a lot of money and they may be concerned that allocating this much money for paying back this debts would enable or make much more difficult to pay back money to use money for other firms. Thank you very much.

Thank you all the time we have for Carolina journal radio this week. Thank you for listing.

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