Share This Episode
Carolina Journal Radio Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai Logo

Carolina Journal Radio No. 875: John Locke Foundation joins court fight to protect workers’ rights

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
February 24, 2020 8:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 875: John Locke Foundation joins court fight to protect workers’ rights

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

On-Demand Podcasts NEW!

This broadcaster has 213 podcast archives available on-demand.

Broadcaster's Links

Keep up-to-date with this broadcaster on social media and their website.

February 24, 2020 8:00 am

The John Locke Foundation and a dozen other public policy groups in other states have joined together to support a nationally significant court case designed to protect workers’ rights. The case involves a professor at a northeastern public university campus. He challenges a law requiring him to be linked to a labor union he opposes. Jon Guze, John Locke Foundation director of legal studies, discusses the case’s significance. He explains why JLF is taking part in the case. Social justice is playing an increasingly disturbing role in American higher education. That National Association of Scholars documents that role in a recent report. Association President Peter Wood discusses the report and its significance for the future of colleges and universities. When state lawmakers returned to Raleigh in January, some hoped they would tweak state tax laws ahead of the current tax filing season. You’ll hear why members of the N.C. House supported the change. It was designed to help taxpayers take advantage of recent changes in the federal tax code involving medical expenses. While our system of government allows us to elect the people who write and approve local government budgets, few people outside government actually play a significant role in that budget process. But so-called participatory budgeting, or PB, allows a larger number of community residents to make budget decisions. Whitney Afonso, professor of public administration and government at UNC-Chapel Hill, explains PB. She discusses the N.C. governments that have decided to add elements of PB to their budget-writing processes. A piece of federal legislation dubbed the PRO Act could threaten the “gig economy” in North Carolina and other states. Jon Sanders, John Locke Foundation director of regulatory studies, shares his concerns about the PRO Act and its potential negative impact.


From chair to current attack from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state.

Social justice is playing a larger role in American higher education report unveiled recently in North Carolina explains why that's bad news for colleges and universities, which state lawmakers returned to Raleigh in January. Some hoped they would tweak state tax law to learn why they wanted North Carolinians to be able to take advantage of a federal change involving medical expenses. So North Carolinians are playing a larger role in helping to write their local governments budgets you learn how and will discuss a proposed bill at the federal level. The could threaten the gig economy in North Carolina and other states.

Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us and she has the Carolina Journal headline should a faculty member be forced to join a union if he or she doesn't want to that question is at the heart of the case that nearly 2 dozen public policy groups across the country, including the John Mott foundation want the US Supreme Court to take up John today is director of legal studies at the Locke foundation. He joined us now to talk about this friend of the court brief to which the John Locke foundation has signed on John, welcome to the program so first of all, this is a workers rights case here that were talking about.

So what he's caught your eye and the eye of this organization the Locke foundation about this case well the issue as you said is where a public employee like Dr. Reisman can be forced to join and have them represent him to represent his interests in negotiations with the state against his will. If you doesn't even agree with what the union is doing if he believes that the union is making statements that be taken as if they are all his statements but he doesn't agree with them. That's what is at the heart of this case will evidently this is a very serious situation to him because he is now part of this big case is making its way through the federal court system.

Give us a little bit of sense of what his situation is he's in the state of Maine.

I believe yes well situation. It's one that he has in common with public employees all over the country. The state has agreed to let a certain union represent these people and whether or not even. As long as a certain member vote to be represented by this union. Then they all have to be represented by the union. That's the problem for Dr. Reisman because he doesn't agree with what the union is trying to accomplish. Tell us about them.

The brief that we signed on to essentially what is that what is sound.

The statement that it makes we want the court Supreme Court to take this up. It's on it's been submitted to the court, but of course the court has discretion about which cases appears in this case we think it's an important enough issue that they'll cook it up bouncing around the lower courts for a long time. The court Supreme Court is already agreed that you can't force people like Dr. Reese with the pay for this speech, but you can still force them to be represented.

Our feeling is that even if that are paying for the fact that the union represents them means that the union speaks on their behalf. So this is what we call could speak compelled speech. The First Amendment doesn't just protect your right to speak. It also protects a right not to speak and that's what's at stake here in North Carolina.

We are what's called a right to work state to tell us why we would have an interest in this and not many other states are right to work states as well. Why would we care enough that we wanted to sign on to this well let me just before I do that it said it would not just to write the works that will also state which under state law forbids public employees from organizing join unions of avenues represent them through collective bargaining were very fortunate in that regard because of the states where the words unions do represent employees, they tend to get higher. More money gets spent on these people and to the detriment of taxpayers and the biggest problem is that they get outrageous pension arrangements which many of the states are now finding that are there unsustainable. I don't how to make the field of pension obligations were much better since, in most states, primarily because we have a law that forbids collective bargaining for public employees, we nevertheless support this brief and we want this report to pick up this case for two reasons. One is of course we may not always be so lucky. There are plenty of people on the left plenty of Democrats who as well as their supporters of the public employee arena who would love to see the law changed. We might one day get to the point, North Carolina will redo have public employee unions, and in that case, this, this will be directly relevant to us, but more than that there's a principle at stake here is the First Amendment to the Constitution. People should not be compelled to have words put in their mouth, and the fact that they don't agree with its compelled speech and it's forbidden by law.

While John, if we are urging the US Supreme Court. We the John Locke foundation and to take up this case along with these other groups. There must be a level of confidence that the court would rule in favor of workers rights in terms of freedom is.

Is that a fair characterization. Well, I suppose it makes sense, but speaking just for myself, I don't have a great deal of confidence that that's how the court will decide. I think this is actually it could go either way because it up until now, the Supreme Court in the courts of general had not like the idea of preventing union representation. The thought has always been that even though it compromises some constitutional principles preventing labor unrest is so important is that is such an important government interest of the could somehow override the First Amendment that we don't agree with that. I would hope the Supreme Court would agree with it either but I don't have a lot of confidence. I think her to go either way, it sounds like you're referring to, phrase, labor peace that is part of the legal history on this issue. That's right in the unions have gotten away with a lot of things over the years that ordinarily would be illegal, but the feeling has been better to make some compromises under law and have too much labor unrest that would disrupt the economy and make problems that would set is packed so far that we we want to make this compromise now couple of years ago in a case and referred to as Janice. There was some progress them in this area from the US Supreme Court held that an enormous step forward because at least it meant that public employees didn't have to pay for this representation made.

It's bad enough to have words put in your mouth before you actually have to pay the speaker to make those statements you to send insult to injury to insult to injury.

So if that's the case then is something Janice took one step but if the court decides to take Prof. Reese Mintz case, it would be another staff that would it would go there would be the other shoe is they say it would be great it would be where we think we ought to be when it comes to union representation. We hope to think about that. We hope to decide the right way that John this may sound a bit nave on my part because I'm not an attorney nor am I a legal scholar, but it seems odd to me that we would have to be fighting in this day and age 2020 about something so fundamental to who we are as a country as the First Amendment. Sadly, Donna we have to fight all the time to vindicate our rights under all 10 of the amendments of the Bill of Rights. That's just the world were living in today. We made progress, but we also have setbacks and that's just the way to the whole union movement is a fascinating one.

Across the country because as I read stories about it. It appears that damn unions in the private sector are have dropped dramatically. Membership there, but in the public sector. That's where you're seeing more growth in your seeing this robust effort by those successful public unions to try to spread the union power. That's right. Unions have become a negligible force in the economy everywhere except in the public sector and it is this collusion between the public employees and the unions and the legislature is frankly apt to the expense of the taxpayers and the public that we need to prevent and that's why we hope the pick up this case. Friend of the court brief amicus brief M it's not the first time that the John Locke foundation has signed onto one.

What role do they play when it comes to the US Supreme Court. Considering not what to do whether to take application are not well. They have a lot of persuasion's persuasive impact. I think especially when there are many advocacy or when there were many who joined brief is this what does that they would if they see that this is an important issue to the general public into the organizations they are all have confidence in it can make a difference whether they accept the case. Any idea when we might hear one way or the other on this. I don't really is going to be months, but it will be interesting to see how it turns out I will have you back once there's a decision.

John will report to John today is director of legal studies for the John lawn foundation. Thank you John, you don't stay with us much more Carolina journal radio to come just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind. What you need to be reading Carolina journal, honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina journal is free to subscribers sign you'll receive Carolina journal newspaper in your mailbox each month. Investigations into government spending revelations about boondoggles who the powerful leaders are and what they're doing in your name and with your money.

We shine a light on it all with the stories and angles. Other outlets barely cover but there's a bonus print newspapers published monthly by our daily news site gives you the latest news each and every day lot onto Carolina once, twice, even three times a day.

You won't be disappointed. It's fresh news if you like a heads up on the daily news sign up for daily email do that Carolina Carolina journal rigorous unrelenting old-school journalism. We hold government accountable for you will go back Carolina journal radio I Michiko got the concept called social justice is having a major impact of American higher education. And while the termites sound good in practice. Social justice is having a major negative impact on colleges and universities. The national Association of scholars is helping to expose that impact and president Peter Wood joins us now to discuss how welcome to the program polluted Peter so social justice. We've probably all heard the term and it has had an impact on the colleges and universities across the United States. You have a new report that focuses on the stills about a place bold report is titled no truly love social justice education in America. It's been almost 10 years in the making. Been working on this whole long long time it took so long because the project just scrolls all over the place.

There is no no aspect of the college or university that is null, not touched by infiltrated shaped by the advocates of social justice.

What are they doing with all of those saw emphasis they are trying to turn students into political activists. The real purpose of the social justice movement is to transform students from learners of whatever subjects they choose to study and to alkaloids of this broader political movement. Some people might be hearing us in saying that sounds like hyperbole that can't really be happening just the altruist list will I think people lightly are skeptical about generalizations like that out. So what they ought to do for your scope. Nicole is maybe look up the college catalog of their own alma mater. Check out what changes have been made in the mission statement could order no required courses include courses that they remember taking his undergraduates and reading the course descriptions that are there no this is not hyperbole. This is deep-seated transformation of education in America.

Your report understand looked at more than 60 colleges and universities across the country as you were studying this tells little bit more about what you found out how is social justice infiltrating just about everything or just mention one of the ways colleges used to have mission statements that said things like, or were here to promote Western civilization.

The formation of good character of the making of good citizens, relatives, a lot of those statements have been amended to say, but the basic purpose of the colleges to promote social justice, education, social justice, of how does it move on from there were older or specific administrators whose tasks are connected to the social justice movement, the title IX administrators who supposedly are looking out for cases of harassment on sexual misconduct of the resorts are in fact social justice advocates. The people who are looking out all environmental issues, see themselves as primarily social justice advocates. You name the topic and there is a social justice angle to it. Sometimes that's embedded in the bureaucracy of the University. Oftentimes, said Scott built into the old criteria by which new faculty members or pick out diverse student clubs galore led to student groups that are of not self invented during the 10 to be organized by the Dean of students or people working in that area so that the students bought into this early on but there's a lot of work done to make students into volunteers. Volunteers for what will for social justice causes so old that's what it looks like on the ground level is coming in in other ways as well. There, or creditors. No regard pursuing social justice as part of the broader mission of higher education. If your college and university isn't doing enough you're going to get slammed by the creditor. So all external forces are behind it as well. During the Obama administration. There was a lot of work penalizing of regulations to payment promoting social justice. We are chatting with Peter Wood. He is president of the national Association of scholars, a group taking a look as you just heard about the impact of social justice on American colleges and universities.

How does this change detract from students getting what has been a traditional higher education look good to trucks in several ways. First of all the students who go to college thinking that they're there to learn skills that will enable them to move on in life could a good job have a career, find themselves to some degree. Having all that displeased by an emphasis on what kind of political action should undertake some students get diverted entirely from their careers and slotted into this new social justice program. But even those who don't code the whole God for officer course point. A lot of their time and money wasted. So there's that aspect of the then there's the question of what you learn in your typical classroom about how to read and how to write and how to go about learning history.

All those things are no put through the distorting lens of social justice of the books that you will read in an English course or books that are now picked to promote this cause. Classic works or generally of either removed from the curriculum or reread through this very special angle of things.

Every subject and even ones that you might not think it would be possible to put through this sieve or the errors we have a kind of social justice, mathematics, no social justice, medieval studies of worlds apart from what one might think so be the proper place to talk about contentious political issues.

Those issues are being forced into the curriculum. You spend a lot of time and effort to put forward this report what you hope happens once people have a chance to read it well. We are always hopeful about the American public will begin to awaken itself to the grievous loss of the quality of American higher education.

I think that has been happening. We know from polls that larger and larger percentages of the American public Melaleuca plan: shows a dubious enterprise very expensive and delivering not very much this worthwhile so getting public opinion on your side as part of what we were aiming to do were also looking at ways in which we can convince about state legislators and wards of regions, people in positions of real influence to shake off their slumber about the song North Carolina happens to be one of the places where God does seem to be happening over the legislature here that is so taking a hard look at what is been going on in the state colleges and universities course, I should say this is not just a disease of the public colleges and universities, but those of the institutions that can be most quickly and easily reached by political means at our disposal in the brief time that we have left if nothing is done, and the social justice infiltration as you describe. It continues what is coming for the long-term impact on American higher education will American higher education has already forfeited a lot of its credibility, it has become of subsidiary of the progressive left hangs on in places like engineering departments and schools of business that have some natural resistance to doubt, but even they are being slowly converted into agents of this broader cause. You can read the full report on social justice education in America comes from the national Association of scholars we have been chatting with that association's president, Peter Wood, thanks much for joining us. The committee will have more Carolina journal radio just if you have freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina it's one stop shopping. North Carolina's freedom movement and North Carolina

You'll find links to John Mott foundation blogs on the days news Carolina reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and let foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education James G. Martin Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all in one place North Carolina that's North Carolina spelled out North Carolina Try it today. North Carolina is changing not just day-to-day but outward to our minute to minute. Even 2nd to 2nd, how can you keep up with the changes, especially the ones that affect you, your family, your home, your job, make the John lot foundation and Carolina journal part of your social media diet on Facebook like the John Locke foundation like Carolina.

Journal follow us on Twitter at John Locke in the sea and at Carolina journal news, insights and analysis you'll find nowhere else. Thanks to the experts at the John Locke foundation and thanks to the first-class investigative reporting of Carolina journal. Don't wait for the morning newspaper. Don't wait for the evening news if it's happening now it's happening here the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal. Have you covered with up to the second information like us on Facebook the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal follow us on Twitter at John lock NC and at Carolina journal. Who knew you could shop and invest in freedom at the same time it is true online shopping is now a great way to support the John lot foundation just shop using the Amazon smile program and designate the John Mott foundation to receive a portion of your purchase amount that's right you shop Amazon donates money to pass the John Locke foundation, Curaao line on to Amazon smile is the same Amazon you know same products same prices. But here's what's better design donates 0.5% of the price of your eligible Amazon smile purchases to the John lot foundation to try it. Be sure to designate as the nonprofit you want to support. It's that easy.

So now not only will you enjoy what you buy.

You also support freedom. Don't forget log on to today, something nice and help defend freedom, help support the John Mott foundation will get back Carolina journal radio I Michiko got state lawmakers came back to Raleigh for a single day in January. Republican representative Julia Howard, hope your colleagues would pass a bill to link North Carolina tax law to a federal change.

Then he North Carolina task will not incorporate these changes for estate tax purposes.

Until we do in our RC update and have that date. One of the most important parts of the provisions is one building with medical exit options and able to take certain provisions offer your income tax and currently the way that tax bill is right now can go to 10% limitation taxable income for medical exemptions that the new belt will change that to 7.5%, which is an enhancement for people with particularly high medical exemptions Republican representative Keith Kidwell endorsed Howard's plan. Very important issue that we couple ourselves to the federal laws on this for those that are not aware which I suspect very few. This is my business of my life actually enrolled agent licensed by Frazier to represent the American taxpayer. This is something that we absolutely need to get done. I would ask that we impress upon the Senate that they go ahead and get this pass, we do not want to have a situation where our taxpayers cannot take what's allowed on the federal return in the medical adoption they would have to go back and file an amended return at additional cost. Generally, that cost is not enough to offset what they might've saved on some of the smaller accounts in these medical deductions is the right thing to do. Our tax system is supposed to be equitable if we don't we.

Couple this immediately to the fed will not be equitable that would not be a responsible act by this body or by the Senate. Why act quickly representative Julia Howard offered an answer that spans of the state hands for an extension of the income tax filing would have to do an amended return. Those provisions are costly and time-consuming price will have the light of day to the right thing and while we are all here. It takes one there Senate bail that smarty-pants David here and said they would just need to concur with the changes that we made.

It's a very simple thing for them to do the right thing to do while the taxpayers of the state, the House passed the bill unanimously Senate its members decided to wait until the general assembly reconvenes in the spring term with more Carolina journal radio in a moment where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes headlock is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time that's listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Michiko got the taxpayers in a community pay the bills for the local government but very few of those taxpayers play a role in writing the budget that generates those bills. That's usually left to elected board and its professional staff, but there is a growing movement called participatory budgeting, or PB.

Our next guest is here to discuss it. Dr. Whitney Alfonzo is associate professor of public administration and government at the UNC school of Government.

Welcome to the program. Thank you for having me.

So participatory budgeting tell us what this is all about.

So, participatory budgeting, or PB, is I will call it is really the process where the government will allocate a certain amount of dollars to the community, solicit proposals and project ideas from the community directly and then after deciding on and finding out which ones are the most popular and then vetting this projects to see if they are doable feasible legal and within the allotted amount of money they put them forward for direct vote from citizens and residents, which may be broadly defined in their community and so ultimately the citizens both generate the ideas and then select which projects will be funded by government. Governments have been making budgets for hundreds of years. This is a relatively recent phenomenon that started in the late 1980s and a small town in Brazil who allocated quite a bit of its budget to the PB process. 17%. In fact, and so in Brazil. It has become very common 3% of jurisdictions and municipalities in Brazil have some sort of PB and it has been relatively quickly spreading internationally over 1500 communities have PB in place and in the US were seeing it become more and more common. The first case FPV buys and Chicago. In one of the words and 2009, and now it has gone throughout the country and we now have even two cities doing PB in North Carolina Greensboro and Durham will talk a little bit about the the local Greensboro and Durham connection in just a bit, but to let's talk about what are seen as some of the potential benefits of doing this. Why would anyone, especially those who are in control of the dollars.

Why would they want to give up to some of the control so tree budgeting like a lot of forms of citizen engagement has quite a few goals and quite a few things that is trying to accomplish on advocates of participatory budgeting say that this is a way to involve citizens often that have never had positive experiences and interactions with government and a process that gives them control and autonomy in this process also really comes down to identifying pressing needs, preferences, and even potentially innovations from your citizens. They know what they want. They know what they're missing and PB gives them a way to have that voice heard. We're speaking with Dr. Whitney DiFonzo, who was a professor at the UNC school of government as someone who looks at these types of issues.

You've also seen that there can be some potential concerns about PB. What are some of those so first of all, is it necessary, governments have a lot of ways that they actively are engaging with citizens already in many places this may already be giving grants to community projects or having neighborhood councils to make sure that it's not just the squeaky wheel that is getting degrees, which is one of the concerns of any type of citizen engagement to be frank, but beyond that often were seeing relatively minor investments. There are quite a few limitations to what we can do with PB.

Typically its capital projects so that it's just a one term cost some sort of small infrastructure and that's because it's not a commitment from the government to be finding this project for many years so we limit it to one term one year when annual project. Also, because sometimes these dollars are not immense. It's very small projects. We see a lot of community gardens BC playground equipment.

And while those things are wonderful and there is demand for citizens to be investing in these communities.

Is this the best use of those dollars on the opportunity cost of that money is a big one. It's taking time and staff resources from government.

It's taking time and resources from citizens to engage and if forgetting small changes that may not be making a big impact.

There are those that question whether this is the best use of our time and dollars.

Greensboro and Durham, at least at this point I decided this is a good use of some of the tax dollars. Tell us a little bit about what has been learned in those two communities. So Greensboro and Durham have done it actually relatively differently.

Both have done a traditional participatory budgeting model. Greensboro actually is the first city in the southeast United States to adopt participatory budgeting and daycare $500,000 to each of their five districts and that way they can make sure that it's not just one districts needs there dominating the entire budget process by day have limited $200,000 and so they have gone through two cycles. At this point and they're getting inclusive playground equipment bus shelters and covered by shelters, solar charging stations and parks projects like that that are absolutely needing community needs and have been identified by the community by our typical small infrastructure piece during only recently started there is an 2018 and they are currently implementing the projects that have one in their first cycle. They however went and dedicated $2.4 million. So each of their zones is getting 800,000. So what you've seen come out of Durham are actually larger scale projects they have allowed for some citywide projects to emerge.

Youth centers technology for some of the public schools. And so what you might consider bigger ticket items coming out of Durham but once again the one time costs and largely for capital as an expert in the scholar water.

So what are some of the things about participatory budgeting that you're going to be watching as these two communities and maybe some others in North Carolina look at this, so I think one of the important things to keep an eye on is engagement.

One of the many goals of the tree budgeting is to engage citizens. You also hope that is going to lead to innovations and better outcomes with those budget dollars but one of the goals really is to build relationships with citizens and so you need to be very mindful of what parts of the populations are being reached which parts of the populations maybe aren't engaging, but the process are you finding that you're getting more engagement.

As time goes on and more strategic choices being made that may be built off of each other or is participation starting to wane in some communities that have had a PB process. There is low hanging fruit that people are excited about to get done. But in the years following its interests tends to get thinner and fewer and fewer people engage with the process and so that's not true everywhere. New York, for example, they are increasing participation, but you want to be mindful of what trajectory your community is on and make sure you're accomplishing the goals that you as a government have laid out but also what goals your citizens want out of this process will certainly a very interesting topic and we know the one person is going to be watching very closely as Greensboro, Durham and other communities move forward with participatory budgeting or PB is Dr. Whitney DiFonzo, associate professor of public administration and government at the UNC school of government.

Thanks much for joining us. Thank you for having me a lot more on Carolina journal radio just really influence you either have it or you don't and at the germline foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina. So while others talk or complain or name call.

We provide research solutions and hope our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more. We look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control over your life. Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse, the envy of every other state. Our research is how policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you are. Expand your choice of schools for your kids. Widen your job opportunities improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina.

We are the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio Donna Martinez.

North Carolina is eight right to work state but danger to that status could be coming our way in federal legislation called the protecting the right to organize act.

So exactly what is in this federal bill, one of the people who is making sure he knows all about. That is our own John Sanders. He is the director of regulatory studies for the John Locke foundation John welcome back to the program based on first about help us understand really what it means to say that North Carolina is a right to work state. Basically it means that a person cannot be compelled to join and then pay dues to the union. Okay, so that has been something that has been North Carolina law for decades. I write since 1947 okay, but it's also something that is at least referenced in terms of ideas in the North Carolina Constitution, which is way way back.

Oh yeah our Constitution protects alongside the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But the birds right to an individual to the fruits of their own labor and so that's where you make the connection.

I know you like to refer to a lot of things that back to the North Carolina Constitution in terms of how frequently that damn we are addressing issues in which some people would like to go astray from the constitutions like that because those terms are originally from the Declaration of Independence. We have codified them in our Constitution. That's how important they are to us. You've been following this federal legislation called the protecting the right to organize act, tell us about that that is a massive union power grab just a really knows it's, like their grand scheme of that bill would make it illegal to be a right to work state. Essentially, and then it will go further by making it very difficult to be a contract worker. So if if it if everything goes to plan. It basically would mean that almost anybody would have to be coerced into could be coerced into a union and have union dues taken from them against their will.

How would that jive them with North Carolina being a right to work state. How would it become illegal. What would change the law so that North Carolina and the other 27 right to work states could no longer be right to work state. That's pretty amazing.

One would presume since 28 states. Our right to work states that this is getting a lot of attention.

Maybe some pushback Out of this even to make it through the US House of Representatives.

As far as simply getting a lot of attention in the.

The contract worker stuff has been getting a lot of attention since a law passed in California this past fall, that just has that aspect of it and could bear several billion dollars worth of negative economic impact for that say talk about that a little bit because a lot of people with your full-time employee you get them your your check either once a month or once every two weeks something like that.

But if you are an independent contractor.

It's a completely different thing.

Help us understand how an independent contractor, functions, and then how this bill would impact will you basically and in service to yourself.

You could be anything truck driver, you could be a freelancer, you could decide to work for Hoover on the side. It's it's anything from full-time work where you're trusting in your own skills and abilities to try to make a little book on the side and then taxes you have to take care of your own right in your earlier asses take out your taxes etc. so you are an independent entity. Hence, independent contractor, so it's up to you to do those things will how would this bill impact that bill basically would apply a three-part test to companies who are hiring an independent contractor and the.

The assumption is, unless they can pass all three parts of the test is that you are an employee of the company. If you are an employee, then you are therefore subject to whether that company is a union shop or not and whether union dues can be taken but presumably at least some of the people who are independent contractors don't want to be employees.

Maybe it's nighttime gig. In the case of no driving for one of the best services, but a lot of people like the freedom of that and they also like the freedom to just go pursue something after hours right so what is the idea then behind taking away someone's ability to choose what they want to do with their time and how they want to earn money from the union's perspective.

They see it as if you are in a union shop but in a right to work state and you have not joined the union and you're not flipping the dues, then you're a freeloader because hearing what you're benefiting from in their perspective you're benefiting from union representation without having to give them any money now from the free-market perspective if they are taking money from either freeloading off of you. Especially if you don't want there want their help.

You don't want the representation you want to give money to them and you don't want to give money to their causes, which may be against your political proclivities.

This whole sharing economy and I guess some people called the gig economy.

It seems like it's growing seems to be working for a lot of people in market forces are at play and consumers win in this kind of thing you get more choices may be pressure to lower prices. Whether it's to get transportation from one point to another, or I've even heard of some more emerging markets in the sharing economy like with movers or if you just want someone to come in and you put some posters on the wall in in your apartment you can instantly do this, so that's growing. It seems odd then that there would be a group of people who want to crack down on that because with growth comes opportunity.

It surprises me to think it's sort of like they're trying to apply 1/20 century model of collectivism on this new economy on a completely different world.

When we couldn't even 15 years ago envisioned where we can have a smart phone and be able to connect someone who needs her dog walked, and someone who likes to walk dogs or someone who wants some some crafts and someone who likes to make crafts for somebody someone who wants to do home-improvement projects on the side for people in you know someone who needs some help with that. John, in the broader sense some, this bill sounds out really like a danger and I don't think that's too strong of a word to use because talk little bit more about the potential impact on North Carolina should this bill prevail right now am it has made its way through the US House of Representatives but it would have to go over to the United States Senate and there's probably not a whole lot of people there who would be interested in passing that just because of the political nature. The differences between House and the Senate. But let's just say it didn't pass. What would that mean boy it's hard when the 22 just summing for California just the contract worker side of it. They were projecting losses of $46 billion from the economy, North Carolina being a right to work state, it would impose some significant costs on employees and in the economy and then when you consider the platform economy you're talking about all of these things of people not even envisioned. That could be could be strangled these ideas. It can be stopped before someone even would've had a chance to come up with it so I have no idea it would not be good. Seems like it's just one more piece of this puzzle that shows North Carolina is not only a political battleground state, but we seem to be a battleground for the union movement. They really seem to want to get into North Carolina and do away with this right, work status, which is one of the reasons why we may have to go beyond just having our law and push for a constitutional amendment so that we would have a stronger basis to stand on if that ever passed again. It is called the protecting the right to organize act would have a big impact on right to work states like North Carolina John Sanders is director of regulatory studies for the Locke foundation very much.

Thank you so much as all the time we have for the program this week. Thank you for listening on behalf of Mitchell and Donna Martinez hope you'll join us again next week for another edition of Carolina during rainy Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John Locke foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation donations that support programs like Carolina Journal radio sending email development John Locke or call 166 jail left 186-653-4636 Carolina Journal radio is the John line foundation airline is free-market think tank and Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are solely those did not merely for the station. For more information about the show.

Other programs and services of the foundation timeline toll-free at 866 JL would like to thank our wonderful radio affiliates across Carolina and our sponsors. Carolina Journal radio.

Thank you for listening.

Please join us again next week

Get The Truth Mobile App and Listen to your Favorite Station Anytime