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Carolina Journal Radio No. 907: New analysis reveals N.C. Medicaid expansion funding gap

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
October 5, 2020 9:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 907: New analysis reveals N.C. Medicaid expansion funding gap

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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October 5, 2020 9:00 am

Gov. Roy Cooper and other advocates of Medicaid expansion in North Carolina argue consistently that expansion would not cost any state taxpayer dollars. A new analysis from the John Locke Foundation and the Ohio-based Buckeye Institute call that claim into question. A model based on enrollment estimates and Medicaid costs in expansion states suggests N.C. budget writers would face a gap of $119 million to $171 million to cover new Medicaid costs. Jordan Roberts, John Locke Foundation health care policy analyst, highlights key points from the new Medicaid expansion analysis. A Superior Court judge recently struck down Wilmington’s restrictions on vacation rental property. The court decision represents a victory for plaintiffs David and Peggy Schroeder. But it leaves unresolved constitutional claims raised by the Schroeders’ attorneys from the Institute for Justice. Before the ruling, IJ constitutional law fellow Adam Griffin explained why the group had taken the Schroeders’ case. U.S. Sen. Thom Tillis, R-N.C., raised recent questions on Capitol Hill about the controversial investigation into Russian influence on the 2016 election. You’ll hear highlights from Tillis’ queries of former U.S. Justice Department official Sally Yates. A nurses union won a recent victory at Mission Health hospital in Asheville. The contest prompted a recent John Locke Foundation online forum about union activity in North Carolina. Among the speakers raising concerns about unions were state Rep. Sarah Stevens, R-Surry, Ray Starling of the NC Chamber, and nurse TiAngela Austin. North Carolina will make history in November when voters select the state’s first black lieutenant governor. Both Democratic nominee Yvonne Lewis Holley and Republican Mark Robinson are African-American. But they approach that fact in different ways. Rick Henderson, Carolina Journal editor-in-chief, highlights key differences driving the lieutenant governor’s campaign.

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From Cherokee to current and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio amateur coca during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state Superior Court judge recently struck down Wilmington's restrictions on vacation property rentals you learn by the Institute for Justice got involved in the case, US Sen. Tom Tillis had a chance to grill a key witness on Capitol Hill in a discussion of the federal government's questionable investigation of Russian election interference.

You'll hear highlights a nursing union contest in Asheville is prompting new questions about labor union activity in North Carolina.

You'll hear details from a recent online forum on the issue of state labor law and will highlight key issues in North Carolina's history making race for lieutenant governor, whoever wins North Carolina will have its first African-American lieutenant governor. Those topics are just ahead.

First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline new economic analysis from the John Locke foundation. It shows that Medicaid expansion is not free to North Carolina taxpayers as governor Roy Cooper and other activists claim.

In fact the idea is not only misguided public policy says our next guest, but it's also a costly plan for North Carolina. Jordan Roberts is healthcare policy analyst for the John Locke foundation. He is the author of this new report were to be talking about now and he joins us with the details of Jordan. Welcome back to the show.

Tell us about the economic analysis and this funding gap we found in our studies that Medicaid expansion in North Carolina would leave the state with them anywhere between 100, 1970 $1 million gap just alone in the first year, and that gap comes from the difference between what the governor believes he can raise arm from his taxes on health insurers and hospitals and the total amount of the estate costs.

The difference between those two. So we found that we were.

We believe the governor is underestimating total enrollment in the total cost of the program.

If we were to expand Medicaid in North Carolina. What about after the first year what would happen to the costs.so yeah that hundred, 1970 $1 million is a fun together just for the first year and am not gap would persist based on the total enrollment and the cost per enrollee which we we get into in the paper.

Jordan your analysis is directly at odds with what governor Roy Cooper has said repeatedly. He and the Health and Human Services Sec. Dr. Mandy Kellan at their COBIT 19 news briefings over the past several months have mentioned Medicaid expansion. They are really pushing this as a public policy, not only related to Cova.

19 but even if we had not gone through a pandemic. So where's the disconnect here between what the governor is saying and what the analysis shows is that I believe the governor and his administration have underestimated the total amount of enrollment and we looked at experiences in other states and looked at several different nationwide studies about Medicaid expansion to come up with these numbers and the governor along with the hospitals have cooked up sort of a tax key to where the hospitals and health insurers will provide some of the state cost.

But what we believe is that the amount that the hospitals and the health insurers have agreed to is far less than the 10% state share the North Carolina will be responsible for so this would leave us with the funding gap or leave it with the governor to go back to the hospitals and asked for another hundred to $200 million. Perhaps Justin one year. So if this tax on house hospitals and providers can't cover the states share how would it be paid for that's that's the question of opposing the governor now because he says that there would require no state funds. But what we find is that there would need to be appropriations and there would be this funding outfit would need to be made up somehow and we believe that that would need to come out of either new taxes you states state funding that's already slated to go somewhere else or he would have to go back to the hospitals in house for another hundred to $200 million.

Perhaps Jordan let's talk a bit about the program itself and who the current enrollees are and who it is that the governor wants to add is a huge number of North Carolinians that are currently served by Medicaid. Tell us about that right so we have a very large Medicaid program upwards of over 2 million people. 20% of our states population on Medicaid right now and what we know is that if you expand Medicaid. This opens up the eligibility to adults that are not previously eligible for Medicaid because right now, Medicaid is supposed to be about the most vulnerable populations in our cups right that's right, this is for poor mothers are poor children, the elderly of the blind and the disabled, and that's why we we believe that we should not expand Medicaid because we should leave this program intact for our use of the neediest in our society, and that's what the program is largely done until the affordable care act came along and I think it's really just poor healthcare reform to just expand public funding. You know when there's all these other options out there, we can make a more functional healthcare system where we won't have to put up all this public funding and expand the role of government in healthcare, which I believe is let us to this dysfunctional system that we have today. How many people does governor Roy Cooper want to add to the program and do they fit the profile of the most vulnerable will certainly struggle to afford health insurance.

But I think that's more of a knock on our current system and the affordable care act than anything else, but you know as as we go forward and we see the people you know may need to care there other options and so yeah so it's about what 500 to 600,000 people that the governor's talking about right and that's one of the things we get into in the paper is that you know the governor is not really clear on this, and he's making these estimates based on broad broad guesses and that's what were the reasons we believe he's underestimating the enrollment and the cost per enrollee in this final calculation center in one of the really important and fascinating pieces of data in your new report which by the way, available@johnlocke.org is the profile of that half-million North Carolinians are so that the governor's talking about adding many of them according to believes the Kaiser family foundation are able-bodied working age adults so clearly outside of the Medicaid profile right and you know this is if we looked at the history of entitlement programs in this country is exactly how it always happens there is our legislators that believe a certain population of individuals deserve government benefits and they work on behalf just to extend benefits to this new population that's deserving and in their opinion and so we need to leave these programs intact for their intended purpose and no able-bodied adults who you know major struggle to afford the current products on the market that are set up by the affordable care act. I don't think it's it's a reason to blow up our Medicaid program and invite all these additional enrollees that will be paid for by the government. Jordan, in your report you focused on a number of different scenarios based on enrollees and costs etc. in order to do this.

These set economic calculation about what would happen if North Carolina did indeed expand Medicaid but I know that you've also written a lot over the past months about your concern for the people who are currently enrolled in the Medicaid program there is a phenomenon called crowd out the concerns you tell us about that right so we are one of those rural populations, and that means we have a lot of what we call medical deserts or provider shortages and in areas and so you know just giving someone a Medicaid card doesn't guarantee that they can have access to care. We know we have a limited supply and there are these people that are already on Medicaid right now accessing care so you know if we have a very very limited supply. You overload the system with increased demand.

It could really have impacts on those that are just normally accessing care and it could overload providers. Not all providers accept Medicaid so this can all play into the access and supply that we see for the most vulnerable around around the state. If not Medicaid, then in our remaining moments here.

What is the future for people who are challenged and need affordable health insurance quote whatever and about a lot is that North Carolina should apply for state innovation waiver and this allows us to waive certain federal regulations restructure our healthcare subsidies and lower insurance premiums for everyone across the board. This is a it's been used in a lot of different states, it's been very successful. It would help everybody talking with Jordan Roberts.

He is healthcare policy analyst for the John Locke foundation.

Thanks for joining us stay with us much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind.

What you need to be reading Carolina journal, honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina journal is free to subscribers sign up@carolinajournal.com you'll receive Carolina journal newspaper in your mailbox each month. Investigations into government spending revelations about boondoggles who the powerful leaders are and what they're doing in your name and with your money. We shine a light on it all with the stories and angles.

Other outlets barely cover but there's a bonus print newspapers published monthly by our daily news site gives you the latest news each and every day lot on the Carolina journal.com once, twice, even three times a day won't be disappointed. It's fresh news if you'd like a heads up on the daily news sign up for daily email do that Carolina journal.com Carolina journal rigorous unrelenting old-school journalism. We hold government accountable for you will connect Carolina journal radio amateur coca Superior Court Delta recent blow to the city of Wilmington. The city had tried to place new limits on vacation property rentals but the plan generated a lawsuit, the Institute for Justice helped challenge Wilmington's proposal on constitutional grounds.

While a judge struck down Wilmington's rules for other reasons the constitutional issues are still important Carolina journal Radiohead interviewed constitutional law, fellow Adam Griffin of the Institute for Justice before the ruling first. Tell us what Wilmington did that caused a problem. Wilmington has passed a new ordinance in the last year forces property owners to obtain a permit if they want to rent their property prior to the ordinance is not meant it was perfectly legal to engage in vacation rentals is the only thing he did need permission from the government to rent your property after the ordinance was passed there now requiring a permit to rent and to enforce the permit. They have imposed And separation requirements to limit the amount of people who are allowed to have a permit. So it's not just a simple fill out a form and get a permit to rent a limited exclusive group of people that are allowed to rent their property for short-term and they done that by saying only 2% of properties in the beach, Bloomington can engage in vacation rentals and one property is renting vacation rentals houses are meant no other property within 400 feet of that property is allowed to vacation rent so they really constricted the property rights in the city of Wellington and limited to a small group of people that are allowed to vacation rent and this is had a direct impact on the clients that the Institute for Justice is working with the tell us about the circumstances of your clients, David and Peggy Schroeder are retired couple day raise their family. Wilmington, they were residents of Wilmington for 30 years and they recently retired to the North Anna mountains in order to stay connected to their family. They bought a townhome in Wilmington and they were going to live. There is a second home and they were also going to rent the townhome out, they made substantial investments in the townhome put a lot of money into the townhome to suited out the renting and right as they were ready to rent. They had started renting passes ordinance enough to make this ordinance particularly bad it doesn't just enforce newcomers to the city so doesn't just endorse gross. This ordinance does it says even though you already have a right that you made substantial investment in the party started renting it and takes that right from you after they started renting the city can't change the rules in the middle of the game and punish people for following those rules and that's what this reps what happened with Schroeder.

They were just law-abiding citizens were following the rules, who bought property that they knew they could vacation rent and then once they had made investments.

The city Wilmington change the rules on them and is depriving them of their use of their property as a vacation rental and that's unconstitutional under the North Carolina Constitution everything. I suspect that the Schroeder's were doing throughout this process was under the impression that Wilmington is good operate as it always has people that will be able to rent out their homes that they had no idea that that that Wilmington was go change the rules on them know they didn't actually get the due diligence. They research state law local law their HOA rules and regulations. They consult a realtor and a lawyer who all told vacation rentals were legal they bought in a community where vacation rentals were lawful, but then what happened when the city Wilmington change the rules on them.

They decided that they would raffle off their property rights so the city of Wellington took Schroeder's use of their property to everyone's use of the property in the city Wellington and put them into a lottery and raffled off the rights and because the Schroeder's neighbor was in 400 feet of them and won the lottery. Schroeder's loss there) and so the city Wellington turned their property right into a raffle ticket and gave it away and that's just not something North Carolina Constitution allows them to do now. At first blush, those of us who are interested in property rights. We hear this and say this sounds crazy, obviously working on this case. You had to have come across what Wilmington says is its justification. How does the city say that this makes sense and that it's constitutional. While the city of Wilmington. We don't think that they have diffusional arguments that their basic argument is that the Constitution and state law doesn't prevent them from zoning they can do anything they want with zoning you know what that means raffling off people's property rights and capping and limiting the amount of people that can engage in. This means taking people's property rights by changing the rules in the middle of the game they think they can do that they think their zoning power is just not limited by the Constitution filed this lawsuit to demonstrate to the city that they are, in fact, the Constitution and to stand up to the Schroeder's and other families who want to keep their property rights and not be arbitrarily apprised of those property rights to a raffle system.

What sort of impact has this decision had on the Schroeder's it was really devastating. Schroeder's this is the retirement dream. This is where they raise their children. This is where they spent their entire lives, and they've done a lot in the community get back to the community and so it really like the city Wilmington. It turned its back on that they would they would change the rules on the in the middle of the game and they would take away their property rights.

The raffle and the thing about with the Schroeder's hard-working people and they say their money out of their lives and in their retirement is in rental property. They sold to other properties to purchase this town and they put a lot of money and they can't afford to keep it.

If they can't vacation rent if the only way they can afford to have this this home. The second home is to be able to rent it when they're not using it. And so it they lose this right if the city is allowed to raffle off their property right then they are probably going to be forced to sell their townhome and be disconnected from the community. They spent their lives and in the place where there children and grandchildren all their friends are.

So it's been it has been really challenging the Schroeder's and they been tough and they stood strong and they are partnering with the Institute for Justice to show that you can't fight City Hall and that the Constitution was designed to put limits on government and what government can do joint venture, property rights, what is the ultimate goal of the suit.

We want to establish precedent in North Carolina that a very pernicious idea called amortization has constitutional limits amortization is this idea that government can take your property and rather than pay you for that property. It can force you to pay yourself or there taking under the North Carolina Constitution under the U.S. Constitution, its well-established law that, when the government takes your property. They have to pay just compensation.

What amortization does is they take the Schroeder's right to rent from them and then they say you know now that we taken that right. You can rent for one more year. So what happened is the Schroeder's lost the lottery and they were allowed and then the they lost lottery in the city said when you can rent for one more year and then you can work and keep the property and pay yourself for not pay you for taking that property right away and allow you to pay yourself for and that's unconstitutional if someone can take it the government to take their your property away. They have to pay for it.

They can require you to pay for yourself.

And so what amortization really is is its loophole around eminent domain, and it is a ticking time bomb on the Schroeder's rights and is unconstitutional under North Carolina's law of the land clause the Schroeder's lose. What does this mean in terms of protection of property rights is dangerous if the Schroeder's lose. It means that that property rights are even more in jeopardy, that they are more at the whim of municipalities and cities who think that they can just change the rules in the middle of the game and that's perfectly fair and that they can take people's property and not pay for it required him to compensate themselves when they take that property and that they can give you note rights to small groups of people. In this case 2% of people with a 400 foot buffer around them have the exclusive right to rent and so property rights are very much threatened if Wilmington is not held accountable here, once again, this interview took place before a Superior Court judge struck down Wilmington's vacation rental rules, but the constitutional issues are still important Adam Griffith's constitutional law fellow at the Institute for Justice will return with North Carolina general radio in a moment. If you have freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina conservative.com it's one stop shopping. North Carolina's freedom movement@northcarolinaconservative.com. You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina journal.com reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education from the James Dean Martin, Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all in one place North Carolina conservative.com that's North Carolina spelled out conservative.com North Carolina conservative.com.

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Welcome back Carolina journal radio amateur coca North Carolina Sen. Tom Tillis asked questions recently about the controversial Russian collusion investigation Tillis aimed his questions at former acting Atty. Gen. Sally Gates characterized Comey.

I think you so that when Sir Graham use the word road you said that's a word you could use and you said that there were certainly a violation of some of the rules of the norms and does some of the behavior of those involved in the investigation was not ideal for lease decision is coming. I'm not an attorney and not a prosecutor but I have read Horwitz's report does any of that just make you angry with. They are the lack of what I consider to be professionalism. These these folks are involved in this investigation are highly trained and educated. Is it fair to say there weren't any rookies that are in a position to provide you with evidence are or provide you with information to make a decision to accept the cynic in me makes it hard to believe when we when they know what they knew about the credibility of the steel dossier. They wouldn't think that that's important to bring up the chain of command when you're making critical decisions.

Is that something that you feel like anybody in that whole process. Anyone, whether they were working with for you are around you leading up to information that you are acting on it seems to me that some of these people should have been disciplined or fired.

Do you agree with that is saying patient should national security but I also trust that he did not find any any of these agents were acting seem to have our agents superimposed and used in their judge was material was exculpatory and decided to the lawyers and the national security work, could you at least understand it to combine some of their actions, their errors and omissions in some of the personal communications between some of those involved was skeptic would maybe find it hard to believe, to take a generous view of interest be an honest mistake million documents hundred and 70 position to answer that question. There was no evidence of bias that's former acting Atty. Gen. Sally Gates answering questions from North Carolina Sen. Tom Tillis.

The topic Russian collusion will return with North Carolina journal radio where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes and@johnlocke.org/podcast Locke is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right light. Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well.

We guarantee great information and a good time double down with us. Listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to headlock@johnlocke.org/podcast or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation. Welcome back Carolina journal radio hi Mitch coca national nurses Union is trying to gain a foothold in North Carolina it's pushing to unionize at the mission hospital in Asheville. The union vote prompted an online discussion from the John lock foundation. The topic unions and North Carolina's history is a right to work state Republican state representative Sarah Stevens of Surrey County started by explaining what the right to work means that people in and you can fire that could be involving personality disagreement disciplined him to like this person. Starting with your take where there's a union or collective bargaining you really have to go through a lot of steps to get rid of unpleasant or difficult employee. Now what it doesn't mean that you can't be fired just because a female can't be fired because your disabled, you can't be fired over any other discrimination tactics, but you can be acquired for no reason at all and and that we went right to work making you have the right to apply for job. Your boss has a right to decide if they really like like you would want to keep you. I think that sort of this template explanation, but you still can't be fired for other things that would constitute discrimination in the federal law Ray Starling at the North Carolina chamber turned attention to the history of right to work states. We actually have more states now, the right to work states that 27 on the last three or four years, Wisconsin West Virginia, Kentucky, our way and I think what those states explain what their economies of experience is that there is no correlation between union activity and economic growth that, in fact, in some cases, there is the opposite. So the question becomes what is the problem we are trying to solve.

That's a great question in any number of context but here when the union is looking to come to North Carolina. The real question is what broke what we need to fix, and from the chamber's perspective, applicable observations. One of those is that we consistently hear from North Carolina in pool sweep hopeful all the time and we asked them what they think about the employee employer relationship and relationship what we consistently hear from North Carolina employees is that they think highly of their employers, and vice versa. They realize that that relationship is mutually beneficial. It seems to me at least, that there is no problem to be solved. If that's the case, and nothing so I think the argument for the union. We gotta come in and protect you is really not a politically space, the weeks the second point is basically that will the union actually make things any better. Take the situation in the hospitals today in light of code. Good. We know that our colleagues absolutely deserve the greatest debt of gratitude from the rest of what they've been doing, sometimes with GPD shortages.

Sometimes the long hours, coming no question this is a stress and highly important people, nurses, and the folks working in healthcare.

With that said, part of what I think that the effort hear the argument for the union is all that the folks at mission don't have adequate PP will compare what kind of PP employees have hospitals that are already unionize and what you learn is the union has actually solved the problem to talk about it is just a clarion call to come join the think it all goes back to what is on the salt we got 10 consecutive years of being ranked number one number two number three place to do business in the country. With that said, what's the problem what we actually trying to fix were theirs. You know when the from the chamber's perspective employee employer relationship really good.

You know the things that the union would cling to their not actually going to be able to fix that's Ray Starling of the North Carolina chamber. One of the featured speakers during the John Locke foundation online forum focused on questions surrounding effort to unionize nurses in a western North Carolina hospital. One of those nurses tie Angela Austin offered her perspective, the union organizers and orders here and are actually saying that they will help with understanding ratios that they we we mandate deserve PPE, at least not had and that they will have great site that still it seems that they, union organizers are promising.

Here are things that we actually already and it's been you know it's a sad situation because what is happening is the union organizers are driving sphere in our community and raising doubt about our ability to provide patients with a level of care that they need and that it's been very disheartening and very detailed status among nurses and coworkers here union supporters of said the hospital needs more personal protective equipment or PPE nurses actually face a shortage of PPE that banned one of the things that has astounded me most because we had never been without PPE we we have had everything we needed every step along the way. Co-pay elevated and I don't really understand that we even actually seen some people who are organizing and protesting wearing hospital out during a news conference at that's a bit frustrating for me because we were here to take care of patients. We are here to serve 18 County and without mission hospital.

There are so many people in western North Carolina that would not receive the care that that is a very very thick source as tie Angela Austin has been working against the nurses Union why rationale for joining the movement is just one absolute fundamental premise.

Nurses have taken her to Florence Nightingale do no harm flatlined. That is absolute bottom line what it means to be a nurse and when we have people organizing for union in a hospital, we have to realize and understand that their goal is to strike and call nurses on strike. This organization has historically known to be very isolated and armed existed and fully and we had experienced all of his things here with their presence in our hospital. There is absolutely not a union at mission hospital that we have to act as if there is already some time and that is also a hard thing for me to delay.

We have patients that are very and that we need nurses not on the line when you make a stance and you stay if you gave me when I say we need to walk out that door until you do and leave these patients in the hospital with no one to care for all our haphazard when I know first and only level to the promised in the saran in this area and we have to take you where to go with the same people having a heart attack two hours down the road but hope they make it when they can get what they need right here. It is up to us as nurses and professionals to go and talk to our leaders about things they need not have an instance where I've talked with her here about a need in any of my various roles and those needs not been addressed.

That's tie Angela Austin, a featured speaker during a recent John Locke foundation online.

She's opposing the campaign to unionize hospital nurses in western North Carolina courtroom with North Carolina German radio in a moment real influence. You either have it or you don't and at the John Mott foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina. So while others talk or complain or name call. We provide research solutions and hope our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more. We look for effective ways to give you more freedom, more options, more control over your life. Our goal is to transform North Carolina into a growing, thriving economic powerhouse, the envy of every other state research is how policymakers make decisions that ensure you keep more of what you are. Expand your choice of schools for your kids.

Widen your job opportunities improve your access to doctors. The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina Journal radio Donna Martinez whether the Democrat or the Republican wins the race for North Carolina Lieut. Gov. it will be historic. Either way, both major party candidates are African-American. Mark Robinson the Republican Yvonne Holly, the Democrat, it will be the first time North Carolina will elect an African-American Lieut. Gov. Rick Henderson is editor-in-chief of Carolina Journal he's following this race joins us now to talk about the dynamics here Rick welcome back to the shell. Thank you. First of all, just briefly, what do we know about each of these two candidates. Let's start with Democrat Yvonne Holly for she is a state legislator for terms I believe from White County. She was a lifelong state employee she worked in the procurement of believers to government and has retired from say government so this is also the swansong of her career.

I think because she's in her late 60s, and so doesn't have aspirations for higher office or anything like that. She's someone who's very very traditional Democrat to a progressive Democrat and is someone who is running the campaign along those lines of the progressive. She won her primary without any trouble. That was a little bit of a surprise because Sen. Terry Van Dyne who's a very well-known progressive Democrat from from the Buncombe County area very poorly, but Yvonne Holly coalesced all of the interest groups is crucial to break interest groups liberal interest groups behind her very quickly and had a problem. The primary Mark Robinson, the Republican is in his early 40s. I believe, became known to voters around the state because a very impassioned speech he gave for gun rights for the Greensboro city Council several years ago and is someone who also surprisingly won his primary because his opponents in the primary included Rene Elmer's the fourth member of Congress and also Omar Johnson, superintendent of public instruction. They both did very poorly in the race and Robinson have no problem whatsoever in the he's he's running a very much of an insurgent campaign and someone who has quite a motivational personal stump and so was that, so he sees someone is running very energetic campaign against candidates generational. Interesting that Republican Mark Robinson has now teamed up with the Republican candidate for governor Dan Forrest and they're doing some ads together the running almost as a ticket, which is of course something that you have to do North Carolina because the officers were elected separately. I think some of the dynamism of Robinson style of the stop of force would be drawing energy from that.

They also seem to have similar ideas about duck overnight to you in public.

Things like that because there have not been shy about holding rallies things like that so so clear but there really try to play off each other. Are we seeing anything similar with Yvonne Holly as she teamed up with Roy Cooper. Haven't seen a whole lot of that, necessarily, and so for the governor really has done Republican bit speak of and so lots of exposure from his his covert 19 news, yes it is Obama campaign perspective.

You can see how they might think you know what he's already out there. Guess he has that hour or so.

Sometime several times a week to speak directly to the people or so has been a huge campaign war chest so they will run as things like that. We've always done this until halls is like a virtual it's like that but they really haven't joined the hippos the Republicans we mentioned at the top that both of these candidates are African-American, so this will be an historic election in North Carolina. No matter which person wins the seat that will be the first time and race actually became a topic of discussion and debate that they held and they have very different views about race and racism.

Yes, very much so the debate was sponsored by the Institute of political leadership. They been doing these debates around the state for several election cycles in which the Council of State candidates have debate televised on spectrum news is now doing the telecasts of Yvonne Holly came up with the civil rights movement as she's running is very traditional civil rights era candidate Mark Robinson is basically saying he doesn't agree with the continuing that that narrative about the civil rights movement usually doesn't see himself as a as a black leader. He sees himself as a leader who happens to be black.

He doesn't see race and it is an issue that should be. That should dominate the debate so much anymore and so it's so that is a different view on race Mark Robinson if he were elected would be the first African-American elected Republican statewide since the 19th century. So this is how God this race would be something completely out completely different. In such a historic race. Whoever wins but views of race relations in America there's two of them couldn't be more different poses a Robinson says that very much believes that people pull themselves up by their bootstraps, they shouldn't use race as an excuse for falling behind and so completely different view than the Yvonne Holly of these issues and that's very interesting.

Obviously, for the times that were living in, and civil unrest that we are seeing and calls for racial justice, etc. one has to wonder.

And I guess we really don't have an answer to this but wonder if part of the differing points of view. Number one, it could just be there personal outlook on life, but also perhaps some generational difference there with Yvonne Holly she said coming up during the civil rights era, and Mark Robinson being a younger person that could well be. It does show up in some of the also talk about the issues.

Of course, because what comes to see education's Yvonne Holly is very much the traditional Democrat although she does support charter school public charter school.

She's not support the opportunity scholarship program. She thinks that North Carolina law to raise teacher pay to the national average in all the sorts of things that we usually heard from our Democratic candidates becomes education and education reform Mark Robinson big supporter of school choice and opportunity scholarships. The export of having the money followed the child if you will to do it for funding schools. He is a supporter of strong law enforcement presence of being tougher with civil unrest, like in Yvonne Holly talks about redirecting some funding from law enforcement community oriented substance to a more social work kind of things and so to the contrasting views the on a lot of issues like that and so will be leeching to see how those play out. What does Lieut. Gov. do North Carolina Lt. Gov. presides over the Senate is a member of the state Board of Education and that's really about all the assigned duties of the governor can give the Lieut. Gov. additional duties can put things on his or her plate, but that used to not be the case. Lieut. Gov. used to be a relatively powerful and individual with God has the ability not only presiding over the Senate was in charge of the Senate schedule have a lot of the duties of the Senate rules committee chairman Dale has forced scheduling bills and legislation and that was all taken away by Democrats would know Jimmy Carter was elected Lieut. Gov. Republican and so basically it is a largely ceremonial position right now and so that's one reason why you tend to have candidates who really aren't as well known run for that position and part of the relationship that develops is probably dependent on who sits in the governor's seat as well. Whether or not that person is of the same political party or the opposite party going forward that would be fascinating to see exactly how those folks work together for you. It would because Terry van Dyck with the statement that the Lieut. Gov.'s job is to support the governor to ensure that they enforce agree with that statement.

Thank you. Thank you. The time we have for the program this week. Thank you for listening Donna Martinez hope you will join us again next week for more. Carolyn internally Carolina journal radio is a program of the John Locke foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation donation support programs like Carolina journal radio send email to development John Locke done call 66 jail left 166-553-4636 Carolina journal radio is the timeline foundation, Carolina free-market think tank Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are so do not merely reflect the station. For more information about the show.

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