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Carolina Journal Radio No. 899: Data help create a typical COVID-19 patient profile

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
August 10, 2020 8:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 899: Data help create a typical COVID-19 patient profile

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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August 10, 2020 8:00 am

Now that we’ve been dealing with COVID-19 for several months, health experts have better information about the typical characteristics of patients struggling with the disease. Jordan Roberts, John Locke Foundation health care policy analyst, recently reviewed available data and compiled them for a COVID-19 patient profile. The 2020 election is approaching, and the John Locke Foundation hosted a recent online forum featuring experts on key N.C. electoral contests. You’ll hear assessments from political consultants Jonathan Felts, Brad Crone, and Jim Blaine. The death of George Floyd in Minneapolis has sparked a national conversation about police reform. But U.S. Rep. Richard Hudson, R-8th District, says he’s disappointed about the way his colleagues have addressed the topic on Capitol Hill. You’ll hear comments from a recent floor speech Hudson delivered in the U.S. House of Representatives. COVID-19 has presented plenty of challenges for colleges and universities across the country, including the University of North Carolina System. Jenna Robinson, president of the James G. Martin Center for Academic Renewal, assesses UNC’s response to the operational challenges presented by the coronavirus pandemic. Federal tax credits have helped promote electric vehicles in the United States. Those credits have generated some unintended consequences. John Locke Foundation Senior Fellow Donald van der Vaart  and research intern Dominic Coletti have been calculating the tax credits’ impact. They share the results of their work.


From Cherokee to current attack from the largest city to the smallest town and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state election day gets closer and closer the John Locke foundation hosted a recent online forum featuring some of North Carolina's top election experts. They discussed key themes and offered predictions for November. George Floyd's death has prompted national conversations about police reform to hear from one Tar Heel lawmaker whose disappointed about the direction the discussion is taken on Capitol Hill Cove at 19 caused a major shakeup on college campuses, including campuses throughout the University of North Carolina system of higher education expert offers her thoughts about the University's response will discuss a new analysis of federal tax credits tied to electric vehicles will learn why there's concern about possible fraud. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline. So exactly who is the most susceptible to the coronavirus. What we all want to know that for sure. Is it striking more in dense urban areas than in more rural areas and what underlying conditions are correlated with testing positive for the John Locke foundation's healthcare policy analyst Jordan Roberts is taken a look at a study that drills down into insurance claims related to Cove at 19.

He joins us now to reveal what all of this has found Jordan. Welcome back to the program gives little bit more detail if you would about the data that working to discuss fair health and nonprofit research organization. They collect private insurance claims and so they have a repository of about 30 billion healthcare claims this is a massive sample all across the nation's very representative sample and they compiled some of those claims and you are broken down by key variables such as age, gender, location and things like that. You know hopefully give a more complete picture of what you said who who the characters were the characteristics of patients who test positive for cobra 19 sets of the state is looking at positive tests and those individuals what characteristics they had. This could be really helpful to each of us to at least have in our minds a little bit of a of a more determination of the level of risk that we face.

Based on all this.

Let's talk first about age tell us what the claims show well this is all across the nation and nationally representative sample. What they found is that the majority of cases are in the 51 to 60 year old age range and so this is typically consistent with what we knew from the beginning those older and typically a little bit worse health than younger individuals of our most susceptible. But near the most striking thing to me is that 60% of the total cases around cobra positive cases around the country were those above age 51, so that leaves only about 40% of those positive cases and individuals below the age of 51 that's really curious because if we connect this to what's happening in North Carolina. We know that Gov. Roy Cooper has now issued yet another statewide one-size-fits-all mandate. This happens to relate to alcohol consumption, cutting off at 11 PM and so you would tend to think that if you're talking about people who are congregating essentially in restaurants that turn into bars late late at night.

That would be a younger crowd than this stat shows that's right. And you know what we can hopefully clean from the state is that everyone can you know assess their own risk. You make the right determination for themselves what activities should I participated in and what I should and you know that's what we hope to achieve by putting out this this types of data and we appreciate fair health for compiling these insurance claims for us. Let's talk a little bit about the gender situation because I know that here in North Carolina. Again, the claims data were talking about is nationwide here in North Carolina. If you look at the Department of Health and Human Services data dashboard and you look just at the deaths from COBIT 19 North Carolina. It skews male believe it's 54% male, 46% female. So as we look at the insurance claims across the country. What we find about gender and who is testing positive. So the fair health data shows us that males will hire a little sis little more susceptible to to work over 19 but does not by March and will receive with a lot of these other studies that come to confirm this is that it's about a 5050% chance males and females. You know, can skew a couple points in either direction, but right now it seems there's about no equal chance of getting it between genders. And what about health status because certainly we have found again here in North Carolina with and in other states to.

There's a big problem in the congregant living settings are older people in nursing homes, assisted living, etc. where people tend not to just be older but to have multiple health conditions are seeing that in the insurance data right so that's exactly overseeing. So what fair health did was they are compatible list of the 10 most common comorbidities that an individual had the pool of people tested positive in what they found was about 13%.

I believe positive individuals suffer from kidney disease, and this was the most prevalent of these pre-existing conditions and no other conditions such as diabetes, hypertension, atrial fibrillation is comorbidities that are typically common and typically more common among older folks. These are the types of patients that were seeing most commonly in the hospital testing positive for for cobra 19 so again this is consistent with what we know from the early days of the virus moving into you know couple months in here but those that have a pre-existing condition or something that would predispose them to attack by the virus. Those are the ones that are more likely to get this disease and you've actually included in your piece which is I would encourage everyone to take a look at this.

The headline on this research brief is characteristics of COBIT 19 patients and this list of that the top 10 is really interesting.

Again, this is the percent of hospitalized covert patients as you mentioned, the number one chronic kidney disease, and kidney failure.

Then type II diabetes and hypertension atrial fibrillation and flutter which I believe his heart condition, heart failure, and if you go down the list things like sleep disorders, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, asthma has been happens to have as much, and that's what we consider him high risk so this is a really good profile. I think for people to be able to assess what's going on in their own family that's exactly right. You know what were overseeing now is there so much data available concerning the disease coming from all different kind of sources but you're the best data available I think is stuff like this that paints the full picture gives people an idea of what type of risk is most associated with a positive test for COBIT that allows you know individuals like you said, to assess their own risk. To see what type of activities they should and shouldn't be doing. And this is what we know we should be getting from our public leaders. That's what the North Carolina Senate tried to include in the covert relief package build to get DHHS to release some of this data about your who was hospitalized in North Carolina with types of comorbidities that they have. Fortunately, that didn't make it in the final coded relief package, but DHHS is no slowly been updating their website putting out more data, but these characteristics of the individuals who have the worst bout with the disease that is really telling for the rest of the public. You know how big is my risk in this the candidate of the tells us that Jordan in your piece you also take a look at the costs. These are after all insurance claims letter that are being analyzed here.

What we find out about that testing costs, treatment costs, etc. it varies and this is this is typical you vary by age and by the severity of unit of the treatment that the individual needs but it also does the very varies on you know what type of insurance you have because your insurance claims and costs account of all dependent on negotiations between your specific insurer in that hospital or that provider so it can vary, but you typically older people more expensive, higher intensity treatment and you know the cost can vary whether you're in an insured or uninsured, but one interesting note in the provider relief fund set up by the cares, they set up a funding stream for uninsured individuals and providers can bill that portal to pay for uninsured claims and know this is one of the big questions people were uninsured lost their insurance. How can they pay for it, but what recent report revealed is that it is a senior administration official said that that portal is not being used as much so it's it's interesting now but there there is money available for uninsured and we hope that nobody you know has to pay large out-of-pocket sums for this because the monies been provided.

Jordan Robert sees the healthcare policy analyst here at the John Locke foundation thinking you say with as much North Carolina journal writing is just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind.

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Welcome back to Carolina journal radio amateur coca amid the cold 19 pandemic North Carolinians still face a major election this fall.

Recent online form for the John Locke foundation, focused attention on key election issues Republican consultant Jonathan Phelps offered his overall assessment. This election season even before COBIT 19 was dominated by Donald Trump Democrats right now. What they are trying to do is they won't run purely as Democrats want to answer any specific questions they want the entire election to be about Donald Trump as well as his faves and enclaves are not going the way that republics like them to go that's that's what they wanted and again I can't stress enough how much they want to avoid answering specific questions Cal Cunningham just like Sen. Jeff Jackson predicted he has spent most of his time in the basement dialing for dollars. He doesn't want talk about which taxes he's going to raise. He does want talk about how much he supports protesters out Gordon threatening federal police officers, local police officers is mosquitoes referendum on Donald Trump. Once COBIT hit the election really did turn down to instead of being about Trump's handling of the economy is now about Trump's handling of COBIT and again Democrats there really focused on more about perception rather than reality, and they want us to be right now there's exceptionally Donald Trump has not handled this perfectly and there is the older somethings he could do better.

Something worse with that at the end of the day you don't see a lot of folks from the country of Aruba handle this. And so the shutdown of nerves are like Ray Cooper share out place like that. They will really keep this referendum I considered purely on Donald Trump Donald Trump and so he is only a big part of this election cycle consultant Brad Kronos worked largely with Democratic candidates in his political career he sees an analogy from 40 years ago. This is the second time in my life that were seeing a girl election that being my group from Donald Trump pulling down the rest of the other one was in 1980 and Donald Trump working hard every single day to make Jimmy Carter look good. There's one thing different between basically three things different between Jimmy Carter and Donald drop Jimmy Carter has on her character and some integrity.

I'm not that much attention to the heads. I am looking at the demographic data will tell you the demographic that is scary for president trial and the impact that it can have down Republican ballot the presidents losing white professionals. The urban counties here in North Carolina is losing unaffiliated professionals and mid-level service industry workers voters in the suburban counties enemies losing white Democrat 50 year old and older voters in rural North Carolina had a tendency to crossover the first time in my professional career in 30 years of doing this Republican crossover vote in the cross shows crossover vote Republican voters going to the ballot box and willing to support a Democrat close to 88 1/2%. Generally 3 to 4%. Also, verboten Republicans is the highest ever seen on its body from Donald. Now the good news for the Republicans is that Joe Biden don't have any code to so very similar to 1980. This is a campaign where it's every candidate for himself or herself listening to highlights from a recent John Locke foundation form on the 2020 election, Republican consultant Jim Blaine points to one key factor election is about one thing about the coronavirus and coded 19 critic is talking about anything other than how to respond deal with that issue and how that issue impacts the economy schools. Hell, they are completely off message and off base. I don't think anybody listen to them. If there trying to talk about other things.

Everything is about the voters are looking at how politicians are handling the coronavirus and I think you see at the national level. The state-level deterioration voters vote Cooper and Trump's handling of the coronavirus problem for Republican Coopers starting point was about 70% approved handling starting point was about 55% approved handling so probably down about 55% approved handling trumps down about 35%. So Republican. They're just getting clobbered because of Trump's handling trumps performing the best of any of the statewide candidates in North Carolina best season by probably a little bit behind right now. I think forested until a certain best right now. I think that the legislative and statewide elections in North Carolina were held day is a pretty good chance you'd see a wipeout or Republican. Fortunately, the election is the day it's 100 days from now, and to some extent. I got things can't get any worse. I will do the same thing four weeks ago.

Some observers of raise questions about the elections integrity Republican consultant Jonathan Phelps explains why both parties of help generate those concerns. One of the reasons our elections about traditionally have always worked so well through the years has been people have an active faith in the process being fair and activating a process not bankrupted, and when there has been corruption issues. It's been called, is been called by the organization exposed but now 90 handle business in 2016, but now for the first time in our nation's history got both sides including present Trump actively undermining faith in the system and so I think you know you will be looking at two different issues when it comes to ballot security on election and that one is the reality of fuel is a frogs are not from the other issue is perception that's being pushed by both sides very actively when I worked in Afghanistan. Teaching candidates have run for office. One of the first lessons I learned very quickly after my first session. Teaching candidates would open up questions at the end of class and it was about 40 minutes one hour yelling at me about ballot security and about voter fraud.

This is in 1/3 world country that has a lot of fraud, but I would have to manage on the front end of one of the issues was that it had no faith in the system and when I pointed out that their system works very much like ours did. In terms of the local board of elections in their cases. Local independent election commission was local folks who are making the rules and enforcing the rules they they just couldn't believe that whatsoever. And so one of the big problems. Both parties have right now is that both parties are actually pushing the idea that there there is a huge potential for fraud count consultant Brad Crone, the longtime Democrat among those who hold concerns about an increase in balloting by mailwhatsoever US postage are only issue that I agree with Donald Trump home is privatizing the United States Postal Service, and you saw in New York and the primary recently you had that took them three weeks to count ballots because they hit continue is to get out if there's a security issue.

It's not necessarily the board of elections is going to be with the U.S. Postal Service. Their ability to deliver the mail.

Republican Jim Blaine disputes the notion that the U.S. Postal Service will play a larger role in North Carolina's own state elections board but blank places the elections board's influence in perspective controlled election board work on other trying to build the rules and change the rules, the giving cells and advantages, but what they been gone for 20 years. Like most conservative Republican consults on our side of the nature of the game. That's the way to go. The media is not all here crying about it. Republicans need to be thinking about how to take a boat that's Republican political consultant Jim Blaine, one of the featured panelist recent online John Locke foundation for it addressed key issues in the 2020 election will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment. If you love freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina it's one stop shopping. North Carolina's freedom movement and North Carolina You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and Locke foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education from the James Dean Martin, Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all in one place North Carolina that's North Carolina spelled out North Carolina Try it today. North Carolina is changing not just day-to-day but outward to our minute to minute and 2nd to 2nd, how can you keep up with the changes, especially the ones that affect you, your family, your home, your job, make the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal part of your social media diet on Facebook like the John Locke foundation like Carolina. Journal follow us on Twitter at John Locke in the sea and at Carolina journal news, insights and analysis you'll find nowhere else. Thanks to the experts at the John Locke foundation and thanks to the first-class investigative reporting of Carolina journal. Don't wait for the morning newspaper. Don't wait for the evening news. It's happening now it's happening here the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal. Have you covered with up to the second information like us on Facebook the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal follow us on Twitter at John Locke NC and at Carolina journal. Who knew you could shop and invest in freedom at the same time it is true online shopping is now a great way to support the John Locke foundation just shop using the Amazon smile program and designate the John Mott foundation to receive a portion of your purchase amount that's right you shop Amazon donates money to pass the John Locke foundation. Here's how long.

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You also support freedom. Don't forget log on to today, something nice and help defend freedom, help support the John Mott foundation will get back to Carolina journal radio language coca the death of George Floyd is prompted national discussion about police reform, but at least one North Carolina Congressman is disappointed about the direction that conversation is turned Republican Richard Hudson represents the eighth district disappointed by the fact that we had an opportunity to make real bipartisan meaningful reform under support of the Democrat leadership seems more interested in passing a bill through the house and have an actual solutions son-in-law disappointed the bill before us today punishes good police officers is very personal to me. My community while former George Floyd was born available members of his family still live in our community was honored to be asked to speak of moral service were promised, his family and our community. I would work to create real meaningful form listing many leaders in our community will talk and submit here Congress became clear the lot. There's a lot of Republicans and Democrats agree on real branding chuckles decreasing police accountability and information sharing improving training for no knock warrants increasing use of body cameras really Bartolotta government is the Fernie legislation to become law. It has to pass the Democrat-controlled house Republican-controlled Senate be signed by the Republican president. The Democrats Legislation with no input from Republicans jammed through the committee without accepting any constructive input or limits how many Republican members will strengthen this bill. Like increasing the penalty for lynching blocking unions from protecting bad cops will also remove qualified immunity for police officers is any police officer can be dragged in the civil court by any described person they ever come in contact with. We all really bad cops and build a hardbound qualified immunity incline and I introduced an amendment to garner support of the majority of this house will solve this problem, but the Democrats would allow while the college across all may have the votes to pass this measure in the house with this legislation is already dead on arrival in the Senate and the president would never son say to the families who mourn the loss of life, they would say to the people who work for justice that hundred percent of nothing is better than 80% of what they propose this bill. They want you to believe the failure to get real reform is the fault of the Republicans shut us out of the process and it blocked her from having an open debate in the Senate.

Wake up America. The Democrats in Congress.

Hope you are smart enough to see the truth. Wake up and demand that your elected officials work together to get you reform that all people of goodwill demand. Stop the charade. While there's still time we ought to the memory.

George Floyd good police officers who risk their lives every day to protect us.

I'm committed to continuing to fight me for full for healing our communities and I asked my colleagues on both sides.

They all stop the political games and answer the cries across this country.

That's representative Richard Hudson speaking recently on Capitol Hill. Hudson is a Republican representing North Carolina's eighth congressional district will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes headlock is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time that's listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listened Locke to remember, you can listen to or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation, Qubec, Carolina journal radio.

I mixed coca University of North Carolina system faces a lot of scrutiny and criticism from higher education watchdogs. But those same watchdogs can give credit when credit is due. General Robinson as president of the James G. Martin Center for academic renewal. She recently offered an online presentation for the John Locke foundation. Robertson focused on higher education's role in addressing the covert, 19 pandemic in a lot of places, not central research is and you don't have to do is reset you not coming into the lab. Your research has been ongoing. A lot of it has pivoted to get out and a lot of the research and ongoing for years about coronavirus is now coming to attention get people are realizing just how very important this kind of basic research is that is donning universities and that includes University of North Carolina and so we've seen Gary say expert, actually at the UNC killings hell and even working on coronavirus's for years and there a lot of aspects of what has to be studied in order to get this pandemic. Obviously a lot of universities are saying vaccines including including here in North Carolina.

There is also testing has to be studied and developed antivirals and treatment Kentucky studied and developed and impartially seen that a lot of their lot of innovation, medical equipment University is one of the institutions that for years is been using a method of re-sterilizing medical equipment there director of occupational and environmental safety said they've been using this in some of their lack to reuse math and other medical and now they've shared course the rest of Duke Hospital as well as just the world at large to let you know how you can reuse your EE by using this process and be seen in the same pivoting from other Honda textiles into making PPE that is. This is really sure that a lot of what goes on universities is incredibly important. It can be harnessed to serve the public on you and we lose sight of that.

Sometimes when were criticizing universities for doing things that are lesser, trendy, or too expensive that there is a lot of innovative and important research is on universities and write good time to get universities credit for that important work will colleges ever return to normal will college life after the covert, 19 pandemic resemble life before the healthcare brings new normal that I think that will be what happens, at least for a little while. I think we're going to see an impact on sporting events, even if a lot of things go back there will be restrictions on large gatherings and sporting events are the quintessential large gathering together.

It is not healthy is way too when you got going on so I think that there will be.

There will be some changes but I also think that the financial situation in the future is going obviously endowments have been hit very hard. We don't know what stock market is doing next few quarters. A lot of people are like, which means that Emily is are not where they were are being hit as well, as I think that those three realities mean that yes Lindsay Mike at one time 90 Carolina button next year, when there is say 10% budget that every institution in the state is going to happen in the UNC system and I think that right now. Administrators shouldn't looking at ways to cut costs in the future and were seeing it happening all over the country. Syracuse just announce that top administrators and coaches were to take a 10% hiring freeze to see more and more that I think that our leaders in the UC system should be considering measures like that's Gen. Robinson, president of the James G.

Martin Center for academic renewal, University of North Carolina system looks at budget cuts. What parts of the budget deserve the most scrutiny.

I hope that the cuts go to nonteaching costs, faculty salaries, not really changed over the years.

Once you factor in inflation. Once you factor in the growing number of students, faculty is a pretty study the number of faculty to students. The number of by there's been an enormous growth in administrative professionals on campus and I think those are areas are the easiest to cut without hurting the academic mission of the institution. Covert, 19 pandemic have an impact on university enrollment students going to want to return to campus what parents want to send the back that had been increasingly leave and they still do a great job keeping tuition low compared a lot of universities around the country that I think that a lot students and parents are really looking at less expensive alternatives, especially if they feel safer staying closer to home so I do think we probably will see more students looking at community colleges is an option. As a parent. I wonder you want to send my child across the country or even across the state to an unknown place when there is this uncertainty still going around a lot. Students just got sent home by their universities and maybe inclined to stay there and I don't think that the majority of students, most of them that I heard that this is terrible.

I want to go back to school, but I think people are really looking at reality. We may see a search at wondering actually know why my spending is healthy for health and I can't and I think that parents are the pandemic could prompt a new look at some of the costs linked to higher education in North Carolina. UNC system is Artie made his vision to reimburse students for partial dining and housing that they would've been paying for. And so in some ways it's kind of competent in the universe on on this reimbursement. Robertson says the pandemic is bound to have a major impact on university finances endowments like everything else are down right now I think will have to come out the other side of this before we know why you know what the bottom line is for the dominant stock and bouncing all of the place. So once we come out the other end will know finally what what was the total effect on endowments from this pandemic undoubtedly there. They're not going anywhere they were, and private giving. Obviously, people are being very careful in their money right now. People take in losses on their own their own portfolios and so absolutely prior to getting universities is probably going to be slow for a long time. Universities are going to see smaller revenue streams from from every source that that they get money from run from private giving from tuition and state budgets and so really it really will be a time about the new normal that you would see schools will require innovation, flipping the classroom would they leave Artie shown there been studies that show the classroom does work that watching a lecture, a scene written asynchronously works and then having that Q&A in person and I can see Prof. only meeting that class working class or perhaps next time as he did by doing traditional X, as I think you could get some really good space.

Use out of doing what about the impact for student loans.

The a lot of different impact because right now course student loan payments have been suspended. Students are expected their deferred forbearance. I'd I don't member which were there using that costumes are not expected to make payments right now they have a federal loan so I obviously that that's an instant fact that it's going to have but if if students have fewer family resources.

They're going barring already borrowing is been going up a lot, so I think that we will see will see more borrowing. Robinson ended on a positive note, lighting in higher Ed and we Artie see professors having to make the switch in two weeks for sure. I think there has been a lot of innovation and started talking about different ways to deliver what is best practices and I think that that's the silver lining. That's Gen. Robinson, president of the James G.

Martin Center for academic renewal. She delivered a recent online presentation for the John Locke foundation room with more Carolina journal radio really influence you either have it or you don't and at the John line foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina.

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We are the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio Chaim Donna Martinez. What is surprising to learn that the federal electric vehicle tax credit actually forces average Americans to subsidize which Californians will that is just one part of the troubling story of the EV tax credit. This is acted by Congress in 2008, a recent watchdog report is really a focusing attention more on exactly who is qualifying for this credit and to John my foundation analysts have been looking at the data behind the credit they join me now Don Vandermark is senior fellow with the John La foundation and Dominic Colletti's research intern, welcome to you both, Dominic.

Let's start with you. Tell me why you decided you wanted to look into the data behind this credit. It's been going on for more than 10 years and frankly a lot of people probably forgot about it. Yeah will first. Donna alerted me to it. When the treasury Inspector General for tax administration or takes up released a report basically outlining lots of fraud and abuse of the electric vehicle tax credit and asked me to take a look at that to see what I could find out about the tax credit, its implementation and the thought associated with it but we discovered like you said is that not only is it life with flawed it's also being used to basically like you said subsidize wealthy Californians and the people who are paying the price for the average Americans so Don you've been interested in electric vehicles for a long time. You've written a number of pieces about it and available Were you surprised at the results of the watchdog report as Dominic looked into this will in fact that there is a federal program that seeks to incentivize some some of policy, the fact that it might have some fraud associated with it was not a surprise, but the fact that the beneficiaries are so skewed are biased to the more took to a certain class was project that works then.

So who qualifies for this sin and how does it end up being that it's wealthy people who are taking advantage of this individual side. What people do is when they buy an electric car. They can then on their God on their tax return for the next year they can claim that is the big one yes it I believe it goes up to $8500 is the most you can claim for a fully plug in electric vehicle. No, it doesn't necessarily include all cars that we might think of his electric and it deftly does include hybrid you can get the full tax credit for, say, your run-of-the-mill Toyota previous. However, what people do so. Once people claim that that's when people have bought electric car side then they go ahead and claim and that's how you become eligible for this tax credit or not this truly fully eligible eligible depending on the type of car so full electric current. That's how you get the full $8500, something like a plug-in hybrid you get a little bit less. So how is it then that someone could buy a vehicle that maybe doesn't meet the requirements.

Go ahead and claim the tax credit on their tax return would not be flagged by the IRS thing is the story exactly so the report said that the IRS needs a way to be able to check but the reality is that the agency is not doing a very good job of going through and actually verifying that the Vin number on the vehicles is the type of vehicle is eligible for the credit that sounds kinda crazy because Sam all right will give them the benefit of the doubt and say it's more complex than perhaps what we think but if if there is a Vin number and if you can check that to see yes or no. It meets the requirement for the credit. Why is that not happening. Wish I could tell you, and apparently the IRS responded in to the watchdog report and instead, there's really not much we can do about this, and that's the scary part is a taxpayer to know that so that's what's happening with with fraud in the system. This issue of who is actually qualifying for the credit is buying electric vehicles.

It turns out it's wealthy people in the state of California as an really outsized role in this Don tell us about the world. It California place here. Well the fact is that there are a lot of more high-end electric vehicles will name names so you have a little bit of capital before you go out and make the purchase. There seems to be a large number of well-to-do folks in California who are interested in buying these high-end vehicles. So much so that the that the statistics are completely skewed and yes how how prevalent is California in this program California makes up 40% of all claims for the electric vehicle tax credit if you include the rest of the West Coast. Your looking at more than half. So the vast majority of the country isn't claim discreditable people to start buying electric cars in Louisiana, for example, some words were under thousand people actually claimed this tax credit and the idea behind it was that you this would make the electric car more appealing to the average American, but part of the issue is that these are high-end electric vehicle. So even $8500 tax credit doesn't make that necessarily cheaper than the other issue is that even as more low-end electric vehicles have started to become available. This is an infrastructure to support them in a lot of state so it's not a practical buying decision one way or another and really California and some other West Coast states. The only places where it is practical to own electric car to a plug-in. He had a charge of the battery, exactly.

And so you can't you know you can't really go beyond.

Let's say the West Coast with you here in Raleigh you could maybe drive the car if you don't drive the car plug it in at home we can go too far because there aren't there's aren't that many charging stations across the East Coast was on the West Coast must go the entire state of California so that's the. The issue on why California is outsized in the program but Don this was also supposed to be all about helping to save the planet clean the environment, etc. and as it turns out, these cars really are having much of an impact on the environment either. And that's the underlying policy question which is you know we we would hope that this would be furthering a policy that makes sense in this case it doesn't, and we talked about that, but even the EPA's of scientific advisory board recently reviewed the electrical incentives program, and they pointed out, these are not more efficient than other gasoline vehicles and they don't help in terms of greenhouse gases, at least not right now. While our all our electricity generating system is heavily favor geared toward PhD charge the battery. So where does the power come from the battery.

It all comes from fossil fuel.

Primarily, so here's the really just shifting missions and that's that that's the really flaw in the underlying policy and we see the policy is now being implemented with fraud. Once a really interesting a situation related to the federal electric vehicle tax credit. Turns out that average Americans are subsidizing wealthy Californian sleeve and talking to Dominic Colletti and Don Vandermark here at the John Locke foundation they've been looking into the data. Gentlemen, thank you very much appreciated. That's all the time we have for Carolina general radio this week. Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch go back.

I'm Donna Martinez hope you'll join us again next week for another edition Carolina general radio Carolina general radio is a program of the John Locke foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation donations support programs like Carolina Journal radio send email development John Locke done.

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