Carolina Journal Radio No. 890: Carolina Rebound offers ideas for post-COVID-19 K-12 education

From Cherokee to current tagging from the largest city to the smallest town and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martinez and I will explore some major issues affecting our state. The covert 19 pandemic is shut down many of North Carolina's businesses who hear from one business owner.

He says regulators rejected safety measures that would've allowed him to keep his doors open.

State lawmakers have been wrestling with the best way to tax online education material here are highlights from their debate before the pandemic.

A chief foreign policy debate involved American relations with Iran, who hear one expert's analysis of a program of maximum pressure on the Islamic Republic and will discuss the Carolina rebound projects recommendations for reforming North Carolina regulations.

Speaking of Carolina rebound Donna Martinez focuses on another piece of that project. She has the Carolina Journal headline when North Carolina's public schools open their doors in August, educators, or can be facing all sorts of challenges learning loss for the kids is just one of those challenges and of course there will be issues for parents and for the kids as well.

This new environment requires us to rethink how we deliver education to kids in our next guest says there are lots and lots of ways to give parents the alternatives and the flexibility that there now looking for. It's all laid out in Carolina rebound, which is a policy guide for state policymakers to follow as they work to revive our state is created and authored by the researchers of the John Locke foundation. You can find it at John Locke or Dr. Terry stoops is the vice president for research. Also, the director of education studies for the Locke foundation. He authored the education portion of Carolina rebound.

He joins us now to talk about that Terry will go back and you covert, 19 huge impact on education. Give us a sense of what you've seen over the past several months. Initially there's a lot of confusion about how the schools would go about delivering instruction. The role of parents in and helping their child with instruction and just very basic things like attendance, transportation, school lunches, these were all issues that really vex a lot of educators a lot of schools and and over that of the last few weeks as school was wound down. I think that a lot of schools are to hit their stride and in recognizing how to make all these things work and recognizing to that it was just going to be temporary to end the school year. Looking forward to the summer and start to anticipate how they would start planning for the fall. Let's talk a little bit more about the challenge that an educator will face in the fall. How do you know Terry where your kids stand in terms of what they know and what they don't know what they learned what they didn't learn what your recommendations for educators, we don't know because state testing was canceled. They they will and was waived by the federal government so there was no federal or state requirement that states administer tests. North Carolina asked for waiver was granted one so we did not administer state tests. So one of my my recommendations is that since we don't know what students know and don't know is that once they get back into the classroom, in whatever form that will take. Whether it's online or in person that the state make tests available state tests available to teachers they could minister to their students and use them as a diagnostic tool to determine where the.

The student stands if they're using the state tests their already made they would just need to be scored. They would cost any additional money for the school districts and it would give them a common tool to use to be able to determine how much remedial work. Some students will need and whether those students are on grade level Terry in Carolina rebound you focus a lot on the value that a really effective teacher will bring to a classroom, particularly in the posted covert. 19. Where's we said lots and lots of challenges and you have some recommendations about making sure that the teachers who really perform well are compensated. That's absolutely right, and if you think about it we really want to make sure that the teachers who are doing a fantastic job with students that have had learning loss get compensated accordingly. So let's say that your students in your entering the classroom in your one or two grades behind, and you have a teacher that's able to make up that gap. That is a significant achievements and one of the ways the state should reward that achievement is to provide some sort of salary supplement for that teacher. I think it's imperative that we provide the kind of incentives that would be necessary to make sure that the teachers in our class for not only are high quality but that they stay in the classroom. That's one of the biggest reasons why we should have any sort of pay incentives to make sure high quality teacher stay in the classroom and we should reward them for being the high quality teachers that they are specifically those teachers that are able to make up for the learning loss. One of the curious some byproducts of this pandemic has been that parents and kids who normally would have never been interested in, or thought, to choose a virtual environment or an environment different than a traditional bricks and mortar school in a traditional public school classroom have now been exposed to alternatives and in Carolina rebound you talk about school choice and giving parents and kids more options you recommending well we all have our preconceived notions about things like online education and as a parent I could tell you that many of mine were akin to having a child, surf the web for all day but virtual instruction is very structured, very rigorous and one of the reasons why think many parents and start gravitating toward is because they realize this very structured, very successful way of delivering instruction and so I think that is a state we need to expand it as much as possible that we have two full-time virtual charter schools in North Carolina, but there are Both of Those Schools and That's Gonna Really Be a Barrier to Look to Parents Who Want to Pursue Full-Time Online Education for Their Child. And so One of My Recommendations Is to Get Rid of Those Caps, but That Is Just One Step toward Making Sure That We Have a School System That Maximizes Flexibility. We Don't Know How Many Children Are to Be Back in the Classroom. We Don't Know Whether Parents Are Going to Choose a Their Conventional Their Traditional School or Some Sort of Alternative like a Charter Home or Private School, and so We Really Need to Prepare for Whatever Comes This Fall and the Way to Do That Is to Maximize Flexibility by Expanding Educational Opportunities for All Kids, Not Just Those That May Have Been Disproportionately Affected by Covert, but for All North Carolina Students You're Really Talking about Innovations and That You Actually Have Them.

A Section on Innovation in Carolina Rebound Is Pretty Interesting. One of the the Items Is Granting Calendar Flexibility We Have Heard so Much Discussion about This in North Carolina about When Should a School Be Required to Open Required to Close Number of Days, Etc. and You Are Essentially Asking Everyone Policymakers in Particular to Step Back Open Their Minds a Bit. North Carolina Has One of the Most Rigid School Calendar Laws of Any State in the Nation. One of the Only States to Dictate a Start and End Dates for Public School Students. Charter Schools Don't Have Those Kind of Restrictions and One of the Things That I Reason Is That If It's Good Enough for Charter School Should Be Good Enough for Districts As Well. The Gen. Assembly Did Allow Schools to Start Early for the Upcoming Year. There They Can Start As Early As August 17 but There Is Still Pretty Rigid School Calendar Law in Place and This Is Something That the North Carolina Houses for Years Tried to Change to Give More Flexibility to Districts and I Think Were Going to Start Seeing More Risks Receptiveness to That in the Senate for Those Who Who Been Made Been Reluctant to Provide More School Calendar Flexibility to Go Ahead and Start Thinking along Those Lines, Terry.

We've Also Seen from Covert, 19, a Realization Not Not Not with You Because You've Always Been Written about This, but a Realization for Some That Damn the Broadband Question and the Access Tallulah High-Speed Internet and Laptops, Etc. Really Is an Issue for Some Kids and You're Right about That in Carolina Rebound. That's Right, We Should Not Ignore It. It Is an Issue. There Are Not Only Students but Teachers That Don't Have Sufficient Broadband Access and so I Think Really the Key Is to Work with the Private Sector Providers and See What Technologies Are Available and What Their Needs Are to Be Able to Provide What Many Call the Last Mile Broadband so That All Students Have Access to Anything a Permanent Solution Is to Consider the Ways of the Private Sector Can Provide Broadband to Anyone Who Needs It and Then See What Public Assistance Will Be Necessary to Provide It for Those Who Can Afford We Been Talking with Dr. Terry Stoops. He Is the Vice President for Research. Also, the Director of Education Studies with A Lot Of Foundation. Terry, Thanks so Much Fun with Us and Say with As Much More Carolina Journal Radio to Come in Just a Moment Tired of Fake Names Tired of Reporters with Political Axes to Grind. What You Need to Be Reading Carolina Journal Honest, Uncompromising, Old-School Journalism, You Expect and You Need Even Better, the Monthly Carolina Journal Is Free to Subscribers Sign up at Carolina. Journal.com. You'll Receive Carolina Journal Newspaper in Your Mailbox Each Month. Investigations into Government Spending Revelations about Boondoggles Who the Powerful Leaders Are and What They're Doing in Your Name and with Your Money. We Shine the Light on It All with the Stories and Angles.

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It's Fresh News If You'd like a Heads up on the Daily News Sign up for Our Daily Email Do That Carolina Journal.com Carolina Journal, Rigorous, Unrelenting, Old-School Journalism, We Hold Government Accountable for You. Welcome Back to Carolina Journal Radio I Mitch Coca the Coop with 19 Pandemic Prompted Governments across the Country to Shut down Businesses, That's Creating Plenty of Turmoil for Workers and Business Owners Recent John Locke Foundation Online Forum Highlighted the Challenges Covert, 19 Has Presented for North Carolina Businesses. Steve Pinkerton Owns the Totality Fitness in Concorde. There Is a Mental Health Aspect Existed, I Think Is Really Getting Panic Kicked to the Side. We Looked at This Is That Okay Well Maybe We Can Appeal from the Revenue and Let Them Take It on a Case-By-Case Basis Provided Us As the Role of the Plan As I Could Put in Place That Covered Everything from Taking People's Temperature When They Come in the Law That I Can Submit the Truck Symptoms. We Can Also Have the Only God's Relationship with a Company Called Venture Management and Reconstruction Travels the Country and Does These Remediation and Insulin Facilities. They Disinfect These Facilities. If Someone Gets Sick and Property They Would Go in They Would Completely Make the Property Livable Again and Say for Those Residents so They Actually Are Located in the Complex. We Run Out Of and They Agreed to Provide a Weekly Service You Got This Entire Article That They Do and We Went above and beyond to Provide This to Our Building Here and Provided the Background to the Revenues They Could See This and See That the Steps Will Undertaking the Cost Associated with Excess Another Thing When Businesses Do Reopen. There Would Also Have This Amazing Increase in Cleaning Supplies and Cleaning Costs to Follow These Guidelines for Us. We Just Want to Say Okay Were to Go Ahead and Bite the Stockholder Weekly Basis Will Get Our Doors Back Open.

Pinkerton Says He Developed a Plan for State Officials. We Submitted It Probably for 1/2 Pages Know I'm Not a Another One of the Smartest God of Record to Gain A Lot Of Skills but Ready, Stuff like That Is Not My Strong Belief You Made a Concise Document Together That Laid out Exactly Where What Our Plan Was and I Got the Cookie-Cutter Response That Said You're Not Deemed Essential at All. By the Way, ABC Liquor Store down the Hall, down the Road There Essential Is a Frustrating Thing When It Is Just so Obvious. The Double Standard. So Here We Are Close Going on about 45 Days of the Enclosed Membership Recurring Membership Model. This Is Not This Is Not the Not We Want to See Happen.

How Does Pinkerton Stay Calm As His Business Remains Closed When I Left the Marine Corps I Was As Calm As I Am Now with the Daughter 12 Years Ago and That Change the Game for Me and That I Had My Second Daughter Six Years Ago Salah Got Two Girls in My Life. So I Got a Little Better at Taking Orders and Being Bossed around Was Demonstrated for This the Last 12 Years I Know It Is the Perfect Scenario You Take Someone Who Is an Entrepreneur, He Was Given a Set of Parameters and He Was Able to Adjust to Those in and Do the Best You Can with the Cars.

He Was Given All I Was Asking for Was You Can Put Whatever Relations You Want on Me but Allow Me to Open My Business and Then I Will Be Created for New Jersey Small Business Owners I Think Really Good Problem Solvers, but You Got to Give Us the Ability to Open up and Be Able to Solve the Problem and Will Come up with Creative Ways to Stay within the Guidelines and Keep Our People Employed and Provide That the Service That That We Offer That That's the Hard Part That Does Not Get That Opportunity and I'm Watching I've Done This for 11 Years Now and I Think Again I Go Back This Mental Mental Health Portion of This Work. People Need That Outlet. The Amount of Stress and Fear and Anxiety Is Spread around Is Massive and There Is Hope That in Their Own Way. You're Listening to Steve Pinkerton, Owner of Vitality Fitness in Concorde. He Speaking during a Recent John Locke Foundation Online Forum. Pinkerton Says a Fitness Center like His Could Play a Role in Helping People Cope with the Pandemic. That's the Most Healthy Way to Do This If Were Not to Give People This Would Provide Them the Stability Will Find Another Way to Cope with This and There's A Lot Worse Ways. Whether It's Alcohol or Met Medicine or Pills or Whatever to Find a Way to Cope with This and My Thing Is Let's Provide Them a Healthy Outlet to Deal with All of This Information Is Firehose in Their Face Every Time the Trinity.

Pinkerton Did Not Oppose the Initial Shutdown of His Business and Others like Anybody Be Included in the Order Dictated to Shelter in Place for 30 Days Came out.

I Understood I Said Okay There's There's Not Information about It Makes Sense and I Was I Was Supportive of It and Put a Plan in Place and You Start Seeing These Numbers Come out and I Am Not a Doctor and I Have No Background Talk Intelligently about Any Other Blocks. When You Really Look at the Numbers Are Important, the Metrics That Are Important Metrics to Try and with TV Work. More to the Point Now Where This Is a Different View Than What We Were 35 to 40 Ago and Wish They Could Separate These Metrics Intelligently Look at Them and Start to Start to Change What We Have Become the Viewpoint of It but I Don't Know. I Don't Know If There's an I Think Were the Minority of People That Are Not Afraid of This As the Majority Is in the Majority's Voice Is What Were Your Pinkerton Explains Why He Worries about More Than Just His Own Business in His Own Employee.

I Spent Five Years Making Sure My Business by Building to Get Occupied and We Are Hundred Percent Occupied and All Of A Sudden I've Taken These Very Vulnerable Businesses and Dominant Position to Where Maybe I Can't Charge the Same Arent You Have To Come up with Some Type of Deferral Program Maybe Can't Stay Afloat and All Of A Sudden I Lose a Tenant There's Not There's Not a Long Line of Small Business Owners Are like Well to Go Invest into a New Space and Expand out so Now You Have This Empty Space in the Trickle-Down Effect Is to Get 33 Important Here As It Comes Time to Do Reopen, and If They Are to Reopen Is Our Building Is Just Fairly Empty of Got a Hair Salon That Is Obviously Close the Yoga Studios Close to Dance to You That's Close down so the Corporate Office Is a Good Church That Comes in Here and Register Me on the Weekends. All This Is a Closed and the Pressure on All This Effort That I Put in the Last Five Years to Get These People in and Situated to Now There Their Businesses May Not May Not Be Able to Back up This Pinkerton Have a Message for North Carolina Gov. Roy Cooper. I Will Just Hold It, You Could Recognize the Fact That We Can Be an Integral Part in Making Sure That We Could Provide a Service to People so That They Can Become Healthier. I Look at How Much More Dangerous As Viruses to People with Underlying Health Conditions.

One of the Waterways Were to Create More of That Is Keeping People at Home Time in the Can't Go Anywhere to Let You Know Are Foreclosed Here for A While Now at the Back Open Again, but If We Keep People in There Only to Get There Not to Focus on Their Health or Not Focused on Getting Themselves in Positions Where Flu Season or Whatever Stomach Come up Next Is the Last Thing That Comes down the Pipe Unhealthy People Are Going to Be Vulnerable with and We Need to Deal with Provide That Service to People so I Would Hold That You Can Recognize the Fact That Health and Wellness Will Be One of the Ways to Combat This, and We Can Do That in a Very Safe Way and He Gives Us the Ability to Operate the Way That We Been Operating for 11 Years. That's Steve Pinkerton, Owner of Vitality Fitness in Concorde Discussing Business Challenges Created by the Government's Response to the Covert, 19 Pandemic Will Return with North Carolina Journal Radio in a Moment. If You Have Freedom We Got Great News to Share with You Now. You Can Find the Latest News, Views, and Research from Conservative Groups across North Carolina All in One Place North Carolina Conservative.com It's One Stop Shopping for North Carolina's Freedom Movement and North Carolina Conservative.com. You'll Find Links to John Locke Foundation Blogs on the Days News Carolina Journal.com Reporting and Quick Takes Carolina Journal Radio Interviews TV Interviews Featuring CJ Reporters and Locke Foundation Analysts, Opinion Pieces and Reports on Higher Education James G.

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Sen. Paul Newton explains the goal policy goal here would try to unburden with we don't want to tax people desire to improve themselves to improve their jobs to improve their station in life that is trying to accomplish with the counterbalance recognition that there are national groups out there companies out there that are selling for self-improvement, online courses and think everything here.

Once you start getting into complicated in actual practice in addition.

Great job trying to balance that interest and work through this bill attempting to unburden any true educational development and achievement taxing the public and Sen. Jerry Tillman offered his colleagues a word of caution, he worries about a complicated tax code will bill your right in doing so, we have. I don't know the year you will you will and explaining the ones we see all the questions will become representative Julia Howard responded to Tillman's concerns.

She realizes the current proposal is a work in progress. Been trying to work through this.

This draft realize that this is a work in progress and times change and things change.

We do anticipate this is our our first try to get something out there and we hope we can get it right. Anticipating things changing times change.

We anticipate that will be coming back to the other issues listening to highlights from a recent legislative debate. Lawmakers are considering changing state tax law linked to online education materials for the current proposal distinguishes between schools and for-profit companies quarter with four Carolina Journal radio where doubling down on freedom at Carolina Journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes and@johnlocke.org/podcast headlock is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina Journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time � that's listen to Carolina Journal radio each week and listened Locke to remember, you can listen to headlock@johnlocke.org/podcast or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina Journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation book back Carolina Journal radio I Michiko guy does it make sense for the American government to place maximum pressure on Iran. It's a topic Michael Rubin of the American enterprise Institute recently addressed in Chapel Hill, Rubin was delivering a lecture for the Jesse Helms center.

It's amazing when you just look at the big picture with regard to the Islamic Republic of Iran that they have effectively been at war with us for more than 40 years and they say so directly, and yet never has a country been so wrapped in Teflon to not be held accountable for so many of its actions.

It astounds me that when Secretary of State Mike Pompeo comes in and implements a maximum pressure campaign against Iran. The knee-jerk reaction to that is to try to exculpate Iran from its behaviors to blame those behaviors on American pressure, or to suggest that the opposite, not pressure but an embrace of Iran could somehow repair the relations, Rubin says. History tells a different story about the best way to deal with Iran are certain things which are simply shear facts. In 1993 Clouse Kinkel, the German Foreign Minister came into office and he said that were to take a different approach to Iran.

We want to show that the American style of cowboy diplomacy and unilateralism isn't going to work instead we are going to have critical engagement where we are going to shower the Iranian government with trade and try to bring them back into the international community now between 1998 and 2005 at the height of the so-called critical engagement you had European Union trade with Iran purple and you had the price of oil quintuple the Iranians took about 70% of that hard currency windfall and invested it in nuclear technology, which at the time was covert as well as their ballistic missile programs. Meanwhile by any metric which the Europeans were looking at Iran human rights and so forth. In the other topics not sponsoring terrorist groups. The other topics which they had used as justification for their new approach they achieved absolutely nothing. Quite the contrary, you actually have had a consistent backsliding in Iran. Another complicating factor.

The Islamic Revolutionary guard Corps. It plays a huge role in the Iranian economy regardless of official government funding.

If the Iranians were to have an epiphany and say admit that the Revolutionary guard as a terrorist organization and bring its official budget 20. Proportionately, they would still be facing less of a budget cut. Then we did through sequestration because the huge bull 90% of their income comes from outside the normal budgetary process and this is why this idea of flooding Iran with trade or during the Obama administration giving the sort of sanctions, relief and believing somehow that it was going to trickle down and benefit ordinary people.

It just doesn't work. That's Michael Rubin, resident scholar at the American enterprise institute recent speaker in Chapel Hill for the Jesse Helms center Ruben addressed critics of plans to pressure Iran.

A lot of the opponents of the maximum pressure campaign will say to fix.

First of all because the Revolutionary guard is so involved in smuggling if you actually of sanctions.

It empowers the revenue Revolutionary guard and to some extent there's something to that. But the other thing they will say is that maximum pressure can never work. The Iranians are too proud well I'm sorry.

History shows that that's simply not the case. Maximum pressure has worked on the Islamic Republic of Iran.

You will remember the hostages crisis that started during the Carter administration. By the way, start with the Islamic revolution there is more than nine months between when the Islamic revolution happened when the hostage crisis started and there was an additional five months before the Carter administration broke diplomatic relations with Iran. Believe it or not. Why did the embassy seizure happened it was because of diplomatic dialogue. I knew Burzynski Carter's national security advisor had gone over to Algiers, he met the Iranian Prime Minister and he said, publicly shook hands and he said publicly. He hoped that we could find a way to continue to work in order to once again become allies. Someone snapped a picture of this it was put in all the front page of the papers and this notion this conspiracy that the Prime Minister of the Islamic Republic was about to betray the revolution that led the students to seize the American Embassy. It wasn't done because the American Embassy was there because the American Embassy had been there for nine months already. It was done because we were trying in the Carter administration was trying to force diplomacy at a time when the political instability inside Iran was such that people wanted to act the spoilers will. Needless to say, you know the rest 52 American hostages were held for 444 days. When the hostages were released on the first day of the Reagan presidency. You have a lot of the alumni of the Carter administration say that this was because of the persistence of diplomacy that we should not credit Ronald Reagan for their release, the late great Peter Robin wrote an article back in 1981 in the Washington Journal who said no all these Carter administration aids have it backwards. The reason why the Iranians release the hostages was simply because the cost of holding them became too great to bear with terrorism.

It's a tactic. And there's always a cost benefit analysis to animate the cost benefit analysis that continuing to hold these hostages, especially with the specter of someone like Reagan coming into office as opposed to the hapless Carter was simply too great to pair maximum pressure worked. Rubin cautioned against relying on pressure alone will maximum pressure has a role how you actually fracture the Revolutionary guard. After all, I mean you can put a lot of pain on Iranian society and people you can put a lot of pain on North Korea. But the nature of dictatorships as they really don't care about the welfare of the people. So one of the things I would suggest that we should be doing is for example with hospital ships in the U.S. Navy USS comfort. For example, it wouldn't cost much money to send it to Dubai or Abu Dhabi and offer Islamic Revolutionary guard Corps veterans free medical care if they come and they take it that's a propaganda coup for us and intelligent school if they don't take it that just so's greater divisions within the Revolutionary guard and that I would argue is worthwhile. Ruben also suggests shaming the progressive left and European greens into supporting labor unionization in Iran and using voice of America to highlight stories from Iranian newspapers about day-to-day problems within the country. Carolina Journal radio caught up with Ruben after his speech.

Your basic point was about to the fact that maximum pressure on Iran can work under certain circumstances. How so maximum pressure is all about raising the cost to Iranians in Iran's behavior and was seen several times in the past that when the cost of Iran's behavior gets too great Iranian leadership will change its mind, even if they've sworn never to do so.

What do Americans not know about the situation that we should know when it comes to the person Iran. It's important to understand two things. First of all, Iranian people and the running regime are two different things. Most of the running.

People of given up on the regime, but the guys with the guns that matter. The key thing to understand is just how powerful the Islamic Revolutionary guard Corps is become not only militarily but also politically and economically sure not really to have any change in Iran until you do something about the Revolutionary guard. That's Michael Rubin, resident scholar at the American enterprise Institute speaking recently in Chapel Hill.

He delivered the Adm. James W.

Nance lecture for the Jesse Helms center will return with more Carolina Journal radio in a moment real influence.

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Welcome back to Carolina Journal radio I'm Donna Martinez red tape is always been a problem whether four average North Carolinians trying to practice their trade or skill to earn a living or for business owners trying to deliver a product or service to customers at a profit, but as we look past the covered 19 pandemic.

These impediments will be intolerable as people try to recapture their lives and we knew their livelihoods and the plan forward for providing North Carolina's economy and rejecting the barriers that hinder that rebound is laid out in Carolina rebound, which is a major policy report from the researchers here at the John Mott foundation.

You can read all John lock.org John Sanders is director of regulatory studies for the Locke foundation. He authored one piece a big piece of this same report Carolina rebound. He joins us now to talk about it, back to the show thanks to you, focusing in on some really vital matters.

Sam, as we look to the future and hopefully revive North Carolina economy and the first thing you write about John is about making it easier for people to get back to work. Tell us why you focused and on that first main focus for that is because the economy was not built for businesses to be shut down for 2 to 3 months.

That is going to create a huge problem going forward for people to get back to work. Earn a living and so this calls for strong measures to help people get back to work. So this is not a time for playing games and pretending like things are the way they have always been of the governor wants to talk about a new normal.

This is the new note the new normal. We have got to get people back to work. We've got to remove all these government impediments to people getting back to work and we can play favorites.

Talk about a big one that you say is a major barrier that really needs to be torn down, and here's the opportunity is were looking for ways to quickly and efficiently try to get people back to work you're talking about what sent known as occupational licensing. First, just briefly explain what that is and how that can be a real impediment to someone finding a job though occupational licensing is the most extreme regulation on illegal occupation that government can make. It is a it's a entry barriers that you cannot even start work in your field unless you have been licensed by the government which means you got to satisfy education requirements satisfy experience requirements. You got maybe take a certain number of tests and you gotta pay your fees and a lot of these things are not necessary and is the the COBIT crisis started, it became pretty clear that even licensing for nurses that other states had that we didn't were not as necessary. We waive licensing requirements and allowed the state to honor other states licenses to get these people here while I see this is something that we need to look at across the board for licensed occupation and John, one would think that if something works well in an emergency situation. If you recognize that you need to have that clear the pathway in order to get people and in the case of the nurses you mentioned at medical care that that we needed one would think that going forward, policymakers would say you know what, it worked then during COBIT. So let's not put that back in place but you're going to have people who say we need to be really careful about public health and public safety. What you say to them why that's the interesting thing about licensing is that it's it's a bipartisan issue that everyone seems to agree on left and right mean one of the most one of the strongest cases for freeing up states from licensing came from the Obama White House in 2016. It's it's of special interest problem so went when reforms come about. They marshaled their forces and or help beat it back.

So I'm arguing now it's no longer time to listen to the special interest we need to be paying attention to the people who need to get their jobs and need to get their lives back in order. One done by when people go back to work. Many of them are working for businesses large and small, and you also focus and in your portion of Carolina rebound on rules and regulations that you say look once again they are too heavy-handed we can do away with some of these things in order to revive our economy. What would you get rid of first several things I would like to do.

First of all I'd like to have small business regulatory flexibility analysis. Most states have at the federal government has it North Carolina's one of the very few that doesn't. What this does is it recognizes that compliance, cost, and all the bureaucratic paperwork is very difficult for small businesses with few people on staff to comply with, so it allows waving at some of those requirements, requiring fewer, fewer papers to come in fewer reports, so it's is common sense thing. Another would be to limit the amount of of regulations and find ways to cut with a ragtag regulation review committee red tape reduction committee speed up periodic review and sunset of regulations. We've had good success in that but that's once every 10 years and I'd like to see it get done once every five years. We are in a much faster environment and people who maybe EM don't manage or own a business might not realize how much of this kind of stuff goes on and how it impacts the business and I can recall, early on during the COBIT pandemic. I read a story in a local business owner who had about a dozen employees are so sad that day.

It was so sadly ironic that his business had been shut down by Gov. Cooper's statewide shutdown order and yet he had just paid like some local taxes and fees etc. and he was even able to operate and Andy. His comment to a reporter was. How is that possible I'm paying for the privilege of doing business here and yet the government then comes in and says no you can't will resolve multiple places across the United States and in North Carolina where regulations and red tape was were waived to deal with. With the onset of this virus crisis.

And so in on twitter and and elsewhere that the phrase never needed was brought out which was to to stress the fact that look if we don't need these things in an emergency. We certainly don't need them afterwards. John you also write in Carolina rebound about the issue of broadband and conductivity, and we certainly have seen that in the forefront here during the pandemic, particularly when it comes to how public education move completely online, but this is an issue in the medical field as well and what do you think is that the step forward when it comes to conductivity that would allow the free market and private actors to go out and serve customers, but at the same time ensure that people have access to what they need again is as I see it.

The main feature is to waive regulations. The temptation will be to have government build the broadband for everybody, but those things have habitually proven to be failures, and costly. We certainly don't need to be adding cost on people unnecessarily. But we can remove red tape and allow for building on on utility rights away and other municipal rights away and allow the private sector to innovate obscene innovation in the last couple years were the small broadband companies are even putting up infrastructure on on sweetgum treason and other natural things while it's an amazing piece of this bid report Carolina rebound. It is a game plan for reviving North Carolina's economy as we head out of the pandemic. John Sanders is the director of regulatory studies for the John Locke foundation. He authored a portion of this report and by the way, you can read this report@johnlocke.org sections on red tape and regulations also on education and health care taxes and fiscal issues as well John, thank you very much for joining us. Thanks much. That's all the time we have for Carolina journal radio this week. Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch.

Okay I'm Donna Martinez hope you'll join us again next week for another edition of Carolina journal radio Carolina journal radio is a program of the job.

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