Be a Great Leader by Friday | Kevin Leman

To get behind that person's eyes and to make sure that person is not only on the right bus, but the right seat of the bus, you really have to take the time to know and learn and understand how that person sees life. So this isn't rocket science.

There is a method to the madness, so to speak, here. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Today, internationally known psychologist, radio and TV personality, educator and author, Dr. Kevin Lehman joins us. If you're in any kind of leadership position and you want to improve your skills, today's program is for you.

Dr. Lehman has written more than 70 books that have helped people of all ages. You may know him from his work on birth order. His latest is Be a Great Leader by Friday, five winning plays to spark your world-changing potential.

It's our featured resource at buildingrelationships.us. And Gary, you have known a lot of leaders through the years, some good, some maybe not so good. What do you see as one of the top characteristics of a good leader? You know, Chris, I think I would say be authentic.

Tell the truth. Don't tell one person one thing and that's another person another thing. And I would also say not only that, but be open to input from the people on your team, whatever your leadership role. Don't be limited to your own wisdom.

Ask for ideas on how we can make things better and be open to considering those ideas. Those are a couple thoughts that come to my mind. But I am really excited about our program today because Dr. Kevin Lehman, I've known him for a long, long time. And I think this is going to help a lot of folks. And listen, everybody's a leader in some area. Exactly.

Yes. If you're only leading your dog, you're still a leader. So I hope our listeners will stay tuned to us and we're going to learn some good things. Well, Dr. Kevin Lehman is the New York Times bestselling author of more than 70 books, including the birth order book, Have a New Kid by Friday, Making Children Mind Without Losing Yours, and many others. He's made thousands of house calls through radio and TV programs, a practicing psychologist for 40 plus years. Dr. Lehman has helped millions understand the dynamics of healthy relationships. He and his wife, Sandy, live in Arizona. They have five children, four grandchildren. His book, Be a Great Leader by Friday is our featured resource.

Just go to buildingrelationships.us Well, Dr. Lehman, welcome to Building Relationships. Well, you know, we go back a long time. I was just thinking, I think your son was 14 years old when I had dinner in your home years ago. So just how many years ago was that? Well, he's 50. He's 54 now. 40 years.

We do go way back. But you know, I'm so glad when they asked you about, you know, marks of a leader, you started with authenticity. And maybe I'll tag along on that because leave it to a bunch of experimental psychologists.

Check this one out. They found a shepherd with a large flock of sheep, and they thought they would try an experiment. They took the shepherd out of a flock. They found someone of his approximate stature. The imposter actually wore the same clothing that the shepherd had on. They digitized his call.

And today with electronics, you can nail a sound perfectly. And they bellowed it across the meadow. And all the sheep did something interesting. They turned around and they looked, but they didn't follow the imposter shepherd.

Isn't that interesting? We think that sheep are stupid. I'm here to tell you, I think sheep are pretty smart. But if you're going to be a leader, and by the way, if you have to tell people that you're a leader, you're not. The point is that for a leader to be effective, there has to be that authenticity.

And without that, you're going to fail. So this book that I've done, Be a Great Leader by Friday, and I admit I got hung up on Friday on several of my books, but it's really the sequel to The Way of the Shepherd, which has been a mega bestseller. It's still in hardback for 20 years.

Anybody who knows the book industry knows that after one year in hardback, it gets dropped into paper. So The Way of the Shepherd is sort of the big picture of leadership. This is sort of for the person who is struggling, from the wannabe leader to the CEO to the CFO. It could probably be titled How to Succeed in Life, because I think the basic truths that are in this leadership book help you in every aspect of your life, whether it's your marriage or your parenthood, or in your work as a manager or a business person.

Yeah. Well, you've written a lot. Of course, Birth Order, all of us are familiar with that, but also relationships, marriage, parenting, all those things. But I don't know that you've written a book on leadership before. What motivated you to write a book on leadership?

Well, Gary, it was a God thing. As you recall, we used to have these big Christian booksellers conventions. I had met a pastor friend, and we were just sort of talking. He wanted to do a book someday. We just started talking about what kind of a book it would be. He was a business guy himself, and we sort of brainstormed. We came up with this idea of a leadership book called The Way of the Shepherd.

We did it together. When you do a book with two people, it's not always easy to synchronize, but we pulled it off. To date, I just looked at the book. I just got a royalty statement last week from the publisher.

I believe this figure is accurate. It's 237,000 copies sold in hardback. As you know, in hardback, you've sold millions, as have I in some books. But you just don't get those kind of numbers without it scratching where people itch. In fact, I just got a call from a big church in California where they just ordered 4,000 copies of that Way of the Shepherd book for their congregation as a gift to their members.

I'm getting away from my point. That's the big picture book. It was a God thing, I see, because we went to the convention. You and I know a lot of different publishers, and I ran into a guy over at Zondervan.

The backdrop was that his family raised sheep. I was shopping this idea around the publishers, but on first strike, when I met this gentleman from Zondervan Publishers, he fell in love with the idea. We rolled with it. About nine months later, we had a book in hand, and it became immediately a bestseller.

The irony is, and this is just for you, Gary, not so much for our listeners. In fact, I wrote a note to Zondervan once that said, I think it'd be a really good idea to maybe tell people that this book is out there. If it sounds like I'm flaunting them publicly, I don't mean to, but I've seen it all in the publishing world. I wrote a book once that I thought would be a mega bestseller.

It was the worst one I ever released, so who knows? This is a book that really, for that person, is how do I become a leader? This is sort of a step-by-step, loaded with tips and stories from other leaders as well about how do I get from A to B. Well, Kevin, we're talking about leadership in your book, Be a Great Leader by Friday. What would you say is the most important thing a leader needs to know? Well, I think they have to know that it's all about being personal. Leadership is personal.

It's not something that's arm's length. In fact, I was talking to a young CEO the other day, a woman, and I asked her, I said, Hey, tell me, what do you do when somebody in your group does something outstandingly well, good? She said, Well, I send them an email. I said, That is the second dumbest thing one could do.

The dumbest thing you could do is just ignore it, but who wants another email? And so I talk in Be a Great Leader by Friday about the power of a personal note. I have personal notes from people who I love and respect.

I have to tell you, Gary, I haven't thrown any O's out. I got to know Herb Kelleher. In fact, I interviewed him and got to know him fairly well. And he was the chairman of the board of Southwest Airlines.

He was the youngest child in his family, by the way, which proves that great leaders can even come from the baby position of the family. If you've ever flown on Southwest, you probably had more fun on Southwest than any other airline you've ever flown. They give their flight attendants great leeway and entertaining people as they give those announcements.

It's just a fun airline. But three years after I had visited with him extensively, I ran into him by accident at the Dallas Fort Worth airport without blinking an eye. He looked at me.

He said, Kevin, how are you? He was a great leader, but he said something that's really interesting. He said, you know, at Southwest, we're in the service business and it's incidental that we also fly airplanes.

I never forgot that. I thought, yeah, we are in the service. I mean, we're servants.

As Christians, we're to be servants. So this is a book about servant leadership. And one of the kickers is this, that I don't care where you are in life, how smart you are, how many degrees you have, what accolades people have given you.

People don't care what you have to say until they know you care. That's just premise number one. So this book is all about living the Christian life.

It's treating people the way you should treat people, but it is a guide to success for those who are wavering and not sure how to proceed. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I hear a lot of people use the term born leaders.

He's a born leader. Is there truth in that or what would you say to that? Well, you know, I think there's some truth in it.

You know, some of my background, I don't mean to be repetitive to people. They've, some people have heard this too many times, but I was the youngest child in the family. I graduated fourth in my class in high school.

Unfortunately, I was fourth in the bottom and not fourth in the top. That was problem number one. My high school counselor, and this is a quote, in fact, I dedicated my very first book to him. He said, Lehman, with your grades and your record, I couldn't get you into reform school. But looking back, looking back, I had a sister who was perfect, an older sister who ended up being a children's pastor.

Okay. How do you beat that one? And then I had a brother who was a straight A student as well. And I've psyched myself out, shrunk myself years ago. I was the baby of three.

I had two little bluebirds above me who did everything right. And looking back, I think I made a conscious effort to be the best at being the worst. Because that's how I got attention. And so when I do TV shows in New York on those morning shows, my litmus test is do I get the audio guy and the lighting guy to laugh? Well, I've had some long talks with God about that because drawing attention to yourself is not a good idea.

I mean, God hates pride. And I've I've talked my way around that one. I've learned to be joyful for other people's success.

And I think that's really a gift that God gives you over a period of time. But no, I think looking back, I was sort of a born salesman because that's how I got around things. People ask me about all the things you've done in life. I've gotten you to get honorary doctorate degrees and accolades from different groups and stuff. And I say, well, when I think about what I've done, what really makes me laugh is I talked my way into Disney World for nine free tickets. It took me 20 minutes.

I planned on 10, but I did that. You know, your wife, Caroline, your wife, Caroline, has a similar personality to me. I hope you don't regret me saying that. But she is so much fun. In fact, you might remember this.

I told your wife once, I said, Caroline, if you and I were married, we would have the best marriage for a full seven days, one week. Because we're too much alike, you know. But I talked my way. I still laugh to this day thinking about how did I do that? And I did that using some, I think, natural born skills that God gave me. I used to apologize for using humor at seminars. And now I tell people, you know, God gives you the gift of humor. Use humor, but do it for the right way. I mean, how do you survive doing the view on ABC, as I've done a couple of times, without using humor?

Those women could care less about me, but I used humor to keep them at bay. Yeah. Yeah. I see that. I think this. Yeah. Well, in the book, you talk about, you know, in order to motivate people, you have to employ the three R's.

What are the three R's? And you'll love this one, Gary, because the name of your program, Relationships, Relationships, Relationships. So if you're interested in changing behavior of those that are on your staff, the first thing you have to do is get behind their eyes and see how they see life. And I point out firstborn children, for example. Well, I'll put it in a question form. Do firstborn children buy a brand new automobile like us babies of the family?

That's the question. And the answer is no, they don't, because the firstborn is going to read Car and Driver magazine. The firstborn is going to look at the specification page. Us babies of the family, we could care less about the specification page. We say such profound things on the car lot is shazam.

Do you have one with gold trim? I'll take it. So to get behind that person's eyes and to make sure that person is not only on the right bus, Gary, but the right seat of the bus. You really have to have to take the time to know and learn and understand how that person sees life. So this isn't rocket science. There is a method to the madness, so to speak here.

Yeah. I want to go back to your personal life again. I remember there was a time in which you sold magazines door to door. What did you learn from that job? Well, they dumped you off in the summertime.

Thanks for asking that question. I was just thrown out of college. I was 19 years old. I was smoking. Let's see, what were those called?

Newport cigarettes. I had greasy hair. I had my belt on the side, so to speak. I was a little grease ball. I mean, I was going nowhere.

And this is before I knew Christ is my savior and Lord. And they dropped us off in one hundred and five degree weather and said, meet back on this corner in five hours. And you you pounded on doors and you sold magazines.

Well, I came back. I had my orders with me. And back in those days, a full magazine subscription. This was 1962, I believe a magazine subscription was eighty seven dollars and fifty cents. And the kicker was to always get the upfront money, which was two dollars and fifty cents with the order. So you'd knock on the door and say, I'm doing market research in your area. And you hand them a card. They just pick any seven magazines you want.

Absolutely free. That was the pitch. I take the orders back. I still remember the woman's name. Her name was Joyce Berman. She was the and she looked at me and she looked at my order. She said, what is that? I said, those are my orders. And I thought, oh, I'm in trouble.

I didn't sell enough magazines. She said, those are your orders. And I said, yes. She said, come with me, Calvin. She called me Calvin and she took me into the boss's office and she said, look what Calvin did.

I had twenty seven orders, which I later found out was a record for a morning walk in a neighborhood for this company. And I think it was then that I figured out, you know, I could sell things. But what really bothered me, and this is again before I became a Christian, is I didn't like the way the pitch was. I felt like we were pulling the eyes, the wool over the eyes of people, so to speak.

Yeah. And so even though I was successful at that job, I moved along. But to show you that God still has a plan for your life, I moved from selling magazines door to door to getting a job as a janitor, making one hundred ninety five dollars a month full time.

But I've got to hurry because I know we're short on time. My life changed one day when this five foot nine inch beauty walked down the hallway while I was holding a mop. And that same day I met her in the men's restroom.

Believe it or not, she was helping some little guy go potty. But she was the one that Jesus used, that God used in my life to turn my entire life around because she popped the question three months into dating. And she said, would you like to go to church with me? And my real honest thoughts were, oh, no, she's one of them.

If there's one thing I didn't want to be was a Christian. And then she asked me to go back at night. Why would you go back at night?

I already went in the morning. Didn't I do it right? But that night, I'll tell you, I remember the beads of sweat on my forehead, Gary. I walked out that church, a new man. I accepted Christ. I didn't know who Jesus was. Quite frankly, at that point, I didn't know where he was going to take me. But I said, OK, I'm going to trust you. He gave me instant motivation, went back to school full time, got on the dean's list my first semester and never looked back. Well, well, that's powerful.

You know, it's amazing how God knows how to get to us. So in the book, you have what you call lemons. Let me quote one of them. Know yourself first before you stick your nose in others business. That sounds like you, Kevin.

Yeah, it was. Well, why do you need to start? What do you need to start with self knowledge? Well, because I think most of us are too interested in self. And you have to look in that mirror I mentioned earlier, I think one of the blessings in life is to be happy, truly happy for other people's success. The carnal part of us says, oh, I wish I was like that person or that person. I would tell anybody, don't emulate other people. You want to emulate somebody, emulate Jesus. OK?

Yeah. Don't praise people. People aren't worthy of your praise. You want to praise somebody?

Praise God in life. Yeah, there's a lot of lemonisms. Healthy relationships start with a three R's, which is relationships, relationships, relationships. Yeah. How about this? An unhappy person is a healthy person.

Now, that one gets people's attention. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm asking that. Sometimes your unhappiness is deserved. I say in the book, Have a New Kid by Friday, an unhappy child is a healthy child. Why? Because that little sucker deserves to be unhappy.

Why? Because he dissed you. He disobeyed you. He lied.

He hit his sister. I mean, I can go on and on and on. So our goal in life is not to create happy, happy, happy children. OK? Our goal as leaders isn't to create happy, happy, happy workers. Our goal is to create responsible workers who care about other people. But it starts with a look in the mirror. That's a good starting point.

Yeah. Well, you talk about birth order in this book as well, which I would expect coming from you. But how does that knowledge of birth order help a leader understand co-workers as well as their family members? Well, I'm a youngest child in the family.

I've had 17 book editors in my life and editors come from the publishing company, as you know. And 16 of them, Gary, have been first born or only born children. The other one was a flat out liar. And, you know, here's the kicker. And this goes back to one of the Lehmanisms. The strength you have as a leader many times become your weakness.

You can spot a flaw at 50 paces. We talk at our Lehman schools about vitamin E, which comes right out of St. Paul's mouth. Encourage one another.

We want to give a lot of vitamin E encouragement to those around us. But I pointed out that all my editors have been first born or only born children. My personal assistant, Debbie Bacchus, is a first born. She's been with me for 35 years, played piano in her church.

A great lady. But as a baby of the family, I am not a detailed person. I have to admit that I fly by the seat of my pants a lot in life. I pray for guidance, but I do a lot of flying and sometimes I get in trouble. But if you know your weaknesses and my weakness is detail and organization.

I mean, I'm the founder of eight charter schools. How do you function as the chairman of the board, for example, without being detailed? Well, you have some help. I have a personal assistant that does a lot of organization for me.

And so building a team, when you think about your team, whether you're a small business owner or whatever, you don't want a bunch of people who all think the same or all have the same birth order. I just got hired to speak to the Western Orthopedic Surgeons Association meeting out in Hawaii this summer. And I've spoke to them before and I can tell you what my opening line is right now to the orthopedic surgeons. Why would you hire me to speak to you guys? Because I can't tell you guys anything. No one can. And they laugh at themselves.

They know who they are. But you want your anesthesiologist, you want your orthopedic surgeon to be a perfectionist. But I point out in this book, the perfectionism is slow suicide. The perfect one is Jesus.

So stop chasing the perfect thing and pursue excellence in your life. You said something really profound at the beginning of this interview. You said the leader solicits the advice of other people. And if you're going to be a good leader today, there's a must.

To strengthen your relationships right there, go to buildingrelationships.us. Kevin, the name of the book is Be a Great Leader by Friday. Do you believe that's really possible?

Well, it could be Wednesday if you're decisive enough. I think, you know, one of the things about being a leader is you have to be visible. You know, I don't I don't want to get political, but the last election was a very interesting one. And the leader of the ticket didn't do a very good job of being what?

Visible. You have to be visible to be a good leader. You have to have confidence to be a good leader. And people follow leaders who are decisive and are specific and obviously have thought out plans and strategies that work. So I think any leader would tell you. I speak to the Young Presidents Organization. I've been their resource for many years in many situations. I've been to one of their universities down in Mexico City where you're met with a police escort, Gary, at the airport. They take you to the hotel, probably because they don't want you shot. I don't know why they do that. But, you know, at YPO, these guys, they call them young because to be in YPO, Young Presidents Organization, you have to be under 50 years of age to be in it.

Once you become a 49er, you sort of graduate into another group. But all these guys, for the most part, are multimillionaires. They're movers and shakers. They warned me when I first spoke to YPO, they said, listen, these guys are so driven to get every bit of information from every speaker. Don't be afraid if people leave your session when you're speaking.

Well, me as the baby of the family, I took that as a challenge. And I said to myself, I'm going to just see if anybody leaves my session. And you get like 200, 300 people, probably in each session, maybe more. And I can tell you, no one left.

No one left. And the most common feedback I got from people was, I loved your down to earth, honest, real life examples. I loved the way you talked.

I could listen to you forever. Well, I think, again, as a leader, you have to adjust the people's levels depending upon who you're talking to. And you have to identify with them.

And that's why you hang out with them. You know, in the old days, the shepherd was he was literally the gate. The sheep might be in a pen, but he actually laid down so that he knew if a sheep was, you know, trying to get out at night. He was the protector. And the good shepherd, we see that in the Bible. You know, he went way out of his way to help that one. I mean, that real shepherd, again, back to the word authentic, he's got to be real.

He's got to love his people. But the good shepherd, he also had this thing called a rod with him. And the rod, by the way, wasn't used to beat the sheep over the head.

OK, I would take issue with anybody on that. But there's times when Gary Chapin, the shepherd, would say, OK, sheep, come on, let's move along. And Gary, you might have one little sheep who looks at you defiantly, sort of like a four year old would to a mom or dad, and, you know, sort of dig their hoofs in and say, no, I'm not moving. Well, the good shepherd, Gary Chapin, would go over with his rod. And what would he do? He'd give him a little poke in the tail, move him along. He would use the rod to guide the sheep. And so when we think about leadership, we're not talking about biting people's heads off, humiliating them, calling them, calling them out in front of other people. We're going to use our heads.

And so the rod of correction, you know, that's the time when you take that employee behind the closed doors. You speak the truth in love and you essentially say, you know, I want you to know I believe in you. I think you can do this. But I think we need to do some things different here. If you need some help, I need to know what specifically you need help with. And we'll get some people to help you because I want to see you succeed in this job at this organization. That guy cannot walk away thinking that woman can't walk away thinking, boy, they don't care about me because they do. They're just trying to help.

Yeah, that's great. You say in the book that there's two people that you would never put in the same room together without supervision. Who are those two people?

The two most likely candidates would be the two firstborn children or the two only children, because you've got two people who know exactly how life ought to be. I mean, I can tell you that I've lived with this woman that I've been married to for 57 years in a row. I want to emphasize in a row we're driving last night and all I did was turn left. Now, Gary, that's a very simple thing.

Just turned left. Do you think she could let that one go? Oh, no, no. Honey, you know what? She's got a better idea. She's the firstborn. Okay. You put two firstborns.

She says, all you got to do is go down here and hit the street and you're behind the interstate in a second. Well, that's how firstborns are. They can spot a flaw at 50 paces. They tend to know everything.

Okay. They've been the centerpiece of their family since day one. So, yeah, two firstborns.

Or how about two babies? They've been in that same room for an hour and one of them says, hey, I forgot. What was the assignment they gave us to do? Because they were talking about everything.

But so it gets back to, hey, if you're a leader, make sure your team has a good representation. And I'm not here to tell you that birth order is the next best thing to to slice bread. But I'm telling you that isn't it amazing that if you look at any family, the three or four little cubs that come out of that family, guess what?

They're all different. And that speaks to the genius of God who made all of us different. I always point out to people who are interested in birth order, identical twins. When I found this out, Gary, I cried and laughed at the same time. Identical twins who have the same DNA have different fingerprints. Why did God do that?

To help the FBI? Or was this God's way of saying you are my son, you are my daughter, you are different than everyone else? So I would just say to any leader, get behind the eyes of these people you work with. Figure out what strengths each person has and make sure you have diversity in the strengths, in the teams that you built on that corporation or business called the bus. Yeah. I think our leaders who are in positions and thinking about leadership are really taking notes on this.

I hope so. And then I hope you're going to get the book, because this book, these practical things we're talking about are spelled out in the book. You mentioned that there's two vitamins that leaders need. One you've already mentioned, E, vitamin E in courage. But then you said vitamin N. What is that for? Well, vitamin N, and again, what I love about this, you could look at parenthood. Yeah, we all need vitamin E, but kids need vitamin N. And so do workers. So do managers. As a leader, you have to be the decision maker. I mean, there's other vitamins from accountability to I like vitamin L, which is laughter.

And, you know, I mean, there's all kinds of vitamins that go into building a business. But vitamin E, I love the encouragement, but I love vitamin N because you'll see there's three basic types of leaders in life. Gary, there's the authoritarians who see themselves as the boss who just tell people what to do. Then there's the permissives who are driven on the premise that everybody has to like me.

Well, good luck with that. And then there's the authoritative leader. And that's what I would like to see in action across our country today is leaders who are authoritative. Those are leaders whose whose no is no and whose yes is yes. There are people who aren't afraid to make decisions. They're not overly impressed with trying to make everybody happy with the decisions that they're coming up with. But in the process, they're soliciting the input of people that work with that leader. That's what's really important that that was one of the things I think you mentioned at the beginning of this interview, that the smart leader solicits opinions, welcomes feedback from those around him.

You've got to be pretty secure. You want people around you, not who are just a bunch of yes people. You want people who are going to sometimes challenge what you're thinking about.

It helps refine the the metal, so to speak, by putting the thing to the fire. So there's a lot to being a leader. But, you know, people have said to me over the years enough that I feel free and sharing this without trying to sound pompous. But people say I never get lost with big words in your books.

You keep things simple down to earth. And I think successful people and people that I've really admired in life, people that I've rubbed shoulders with over the years, I think what attracts me to some of them, most of them, I should say, is their down to earth nature. I've done all those secular shows on TV. You know, I really I've done.

There's hardly one of my ever missed. But I think of Regis Philbin, who has now left this earth. He was the most down to earth guy I had ever met. And interestingly enough, the governor of Oklahoma, Frank Keating, invited me and a fellow by the name of Bill Cosby. And I spent the day with Cosby and he was so down to earth and nice to people. And when the tragic news came out about his his life, I was devastated.

How can that be? He took time to talk to people that, quite frankly, he didn't have to talk to. I've met a lot of I won't name names of people, big time celebrities, you know, every one of them I'd name, but I didn't even like being around to tell you the truth.

I just sort of avoided them. So I think if you come in, don't be impressed with yourself. OK, I don't if if God's given you success in life, then thank God for your success.

OK. It's real simple. Don't think you did it because God, if you're a believer. And you said, God, take charge of my life, trust him on all things, then give God the glory.

Don't don't sit there and try to make yourself into something that you're not. I've always used self-depreciating humor, which sort of helps me travel that gauntlet in life. I've done that, I think, fairly well. I would agree with that.

Yeah. Kevin, as you know, I have worked on a church staff all these years and all my counseling and everything has been done in that context. What mistakes from your perspective do leaders in the church often make? Well, let's start with the pastor. OK. I'm so glad you asked that question, because just this week I had breakfast with my pastor.

I go to a large, a non-denominational church here in Tucson, and our pastor is a terrific speaker. And I reminded him in our conversation because he had just taken off with his wife. They had some R&R for a week before the Christmas season.

This goes back several months now. But I just applauded his efforts to get away once in a while with your wife and to prioritize. And I always get people's attention with this. But hey, pastors, don't put the church first. OK, put your wife first.

Your kids need to be like Avis Renicar, number two, and trying harder. Some people are saying, well, wait a minute. Hold on a minute. Where's God in all this? Well, God's in everything. That's a given. But in terms of people, you know, oh, honey, I'd love to help you, but you know that there's a board meeting down there and you know how Harry gets some nice.

I better go down there and make sure that things run smoothly. I think pastors run the risk of feeling like they're indispensable and they have to be they have to have hands in everything. In the church, which they don't. I think pastors, many of them make the mistake of making their wife feel like she has to be thoroughly involved in the church.

I'll get people's attention with this one. I don't think a pastor's wife has to be involved in anything in the church. Anything. If she doesn't choose to.

Other than to worship and be a good helpmate to her husband. I know that's blasphemy in some circles, but I've seen it. I've seen so many pastors fall. You can't, you know, read a newspaper. That's how old I am.

I still read newspapers or go on your computer and get Yahoo News. And, you know, you can't go a month without finding where some Christian leader has failed. Hey, we're off. We're full of failure. We're redeemed through the blood of Jesus. And, you know, I'm just saying, if you're real, then prioritize. Be the model to your people in life.

And I'm not talking about being perfect. I think one of the great things I love about my pastor is he's vulnerable. He shares in the pulpit sometimes things he struggles with. That's a source of encouragement to me, not discouragement. So I would say to everybody, this is February. We've got Valentine's Day in this month.

Some people call it the love month. When was the last time you took the time to write a note to your pastor or to your kid's Sunday school teacher and say, hey, I appreciate it? Or if you still have a choir in your church or a praise band or whatever, taking the time to thank people for the hours that they put into preparing for that Sunday morning worship. I mean, stop thinking about yourself.

Write that powerful note packed with vitamin E, which is encouragement. Just thanking people for the contribution that they give back to this body of believers called the church. Stuff like that. So important.

So important. You mentioned the whole issue that none of us are perfect, that we all make mistakes. And leaders are people and they make mistakes.

How important is it that we learn from our mistakes? Well, if you want to really be a lifelong leader, which I hope everybody wants to be as a leader, it starts with realizing that, well, I'll go to a scripture, King Solomon. I think the very last verse is in Proverbs 3. And he will direct your paths. I wrote a book on that called The Way of the Wise, by the way.

I lemanize. You'll love this one, Pastor Gary Chapman. I lemanize the scripture, which I'll probably pay for it someday. But I love that little scripture. And he gives six little verses there. And I took 10 major themes from those six verses. But I love the fact it says, and he will direct your paths.

And I want to remind people in life, God doesn't give you just one path. Gary, when you started out ministry, did you think you were going to be a New York Times bestselling author? Never crossed my mind.

Never crossed my mind either. I said, that Gary, he's never going to do anything in life. I said that about myself. But, you know, so my wife, Sandy, always says we make plans and God laughs. So as you go through life, realize that you have different paths in life and you learn as you go. And there's times you look back and you say, you know, last week at that meeting, I sort of ran over Fred's feelings.

You know, to a leader, I would say, get on the honker, get on the phone, call Fred. Fred, I've been talking, thinking about you this week. And I've been thinking about what I said to you at that meeting. And I have to tell you that I'm really ashamed of myself would probably be the best word. I think I mistakenly just ran over your feelings and I'm just profusely sorry that I did that. Now, I'm just telling you that that will solidify the relationship with that guy forever.

In fact, research says this. When you buy a product or attain a service and you rant and you rave and you write a nasty note or whatever. And that person comes back and apologizes to you for the poor service, puts it in writing, says, hey, comes back and you'll take 22 different actions in one week to tell people about this wonderful business that you were going to file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau about.

Why? Because they apologized. They made things right. So as a leader, be the first to say, I'm sorry, I was wrong.

Would you forgive me? Those are people that will attract attention. Those are people who will be leaders that people will want to follow. In fact, let me give you a quick little out of raising kids. They always say, don't try this at home. I'm saying to every young parent listening, you got a kid between three and four, try this at home. Say to a three or four year old with your arms outstretched, come here. Nine out of 10 times, the kid will go south. If you want the kid to come toward you, extend your arms toward the kid, say the same words, come here, but walk backwards slowly and that little guy will come to you. It's a word picture, but it works. And that's how you have to be with people.

You don't carry a big stick. Well, Kevin, this hour has gone quickly and I want to thank you again for being with us today and thank you for writing this book. I think this is going to help a lot of folks because many, many people are in leadership roles.

In fact, as we said earlier, all of us are leading somebody. So thanks for being with us today and may God continue to give you wisdom in all that you're doing and all that he still has planned for you in your life. Thank you, Gary. You know I love you. Take care of yourself.

I'm happy you got this program. It's very relevant and it's all about relationships. Ben, we need help on that one.

Yeah, you're right. Dr. Kevin Lehman has been our guest. You can see our featured resource at BuildingRelationships.us. The book, Be a Great Leader by Friday.

Five winning plays to spark your world changing potential. Just go to BuildingRelationships.us. And next week, we'll talk about how to love and light your spouse for a lifetime. Arlene Pelicane joins us in one week. Before we go, let me thank our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Backing. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.