The Alternative to Abortion | Roland Warren

If you think abortion is a morally neutral consumer product that women want to need, you're going to approach this like Coca-Cola or like anybody else who sells a consumer product that you think folks should have.

And so that's created an enormous opportunity for us, but also a challenge in some ways as well. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Today, the president and CEO of Care Net joins us to talk about why we must be pro-abundant life in our approach to the issue of abortion. I am really excited to hear Dr. Chapman's discussion today with Care Net's Roland Warren. Roland's new book is the best I've seen at explaining the concept of being pro-abundant life for everyone in the equation of an abortion decision. And if you're on the other side of this issue, I want to challenge you to listen to Roland's story and his arguments. I think it will be a helpful discussion for everyone. So if you go to buildingrelationships.us, you'll see our featured resource, The Alternative to Abortion, Why We Must Be Pro-Abundant Life.

Just go to buildingrelationships.us. And Gary, you've been around a long time, long enough to know what a contentious issue this has been in the culture and in the church. Well, that's for sure today in today's world.

Never would have thought that we would be at the place we are now many, many years ago. But I am excited about our discussion today because this is something that is so needed in our culture. So looking forward to our discussion with Roland.

Let's meet him. Roland Warren is president and CEO of Care Net, one of the largest networks of crisis pregnancy centers in North America, graduate of Princeton University and the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania. After 20 years in the corporate world, he spent 11 years as president of the National Fatherhood Initiative. He's the author of Bad Dads of the Bible, Raising Sons of Promise, a guide for single mothers of boys, and our featured resource today, The Alternative to Abortion.

He's married to Dr. Yvette Lopez Warren and has two adult sons, Jamin and Justin, and four grandchildren. Find out more at buildingrelationships.us. Well, Roland, welcome to Building Relationships. Well, thank you very much. I've been a big fan of your work for many, many years. So it's just an honor to have an opportunity to speak to you.

Well, thank you. We are glad to have you here and particularly on this topic. So let's begin with the work of Care Net and what you've been doing through the years as an organization. As I understand it, since 2008, Care Net has helped save the lives of more than a million babies. Is that true? And can you give us an overview of that ministry?

Yes, it's absolutely true. I mean, Care Net started actually in 1975, actually called the Christian Action Council, and was there right around the time that the Roe decision came down from the Supreme Court. And it has been working for years to help women and men facing pregnancy decisions have compassion, hope, and help and discipleship through the church when they're facing pregnancy decisions. So we've got a network of over twelve hundred and forty nine and counting affiliated pregnancy centers in the U.S. and Canada. And really what folks get when they go to these pregnancy centers is really the help that they need to make a life decision. We say all the time that life decisions need life support. And so a pregnancy center is one of those first steps in that life support that people need in order to make a pregnancy decision. As you know, this issue is front and center in the culture in every way possible.

And so the work of pregnancy centers across the country needs to be supported and it needs to be connected to the broader mission of the Christian community. Well, your involvement with the issue of abortion goes back to your college days at Princeton. And you're very open about this story in your new book. Would you share what happened? Yeah, you know, it's interesting.

I was a junior at Princeton and my girlfriend and my wife of 42 years was a sophomore and we were Christians on campus, but we were doing stuff that Christians didn't do. And the consequence of that was that we faced a pregnancy decision. And, you know, it's interesting because when she went to student health services, you know, she went to the nurse to get the pregnancy test. The nurse comes back and says it's positive and without taking an extra gulp of air says, now, of course, you're going to have an abortion. And so my wife Yvette says, well, I don't want to have an abortion.

I want to get married. The nurse says, well, how are you going to graduate from Princeton with a baby? And, you know, Yvette persists a bit and says, look, I want to get married.

I want to have my baby. She says, well, what do you want to do when you graduate? And Yvette says, I want to become a doctor. The nurse says, oh my gosh, how are you going to become a doctor with a baby?

How are you going to graduate from Princeton with a baby? And so, you know, she comes back to the dorm room and I always joke, which embarrasses my wife. I say that we're sitting on the edge of the bed, which is where we should spend all of our time. And she gives me this news. And, you know, my 20 year away, by God's grace, I say, no, we're going to move forward with the plan and we're going to get married.

And so that's what we did. I was 20. She was 19. And we had our son at Princeton. And, you know, she ended up graduating with Princeton, not with one child, but with two because it's Princeton.

You got to overachieve, you know, Ivy League. So we have two babies. And then she went on to become a doctor, has been practicing medicine about 30 years now. So I saw firsthand, obviously, this issue and how the temptation to sort of try to get rid of the problem is there when you see your future before you. And you're not sure how things are going to work. But I also saw how God steps into that situation when we were facing this pregnancy decision. And a lot of that, which I didn't know at the time, frankly, as a 20 year old, helped me frame the perspective that I have now, this notion about being pro abundant life. Because what we actually lived out during that time as a 20 year old and a 19 year old is the framework that I'm talking about in this book and the way to kind of think about the issue and transition from being just being pro life to being pro abundant life. And we can talk more about that. But that's essentially where it started. Well, the experience you went through has to be a part of why you do what you do today.

Right? Oh, absolutely. You know, everything that I've done in terms of when God called me from the business world to nonprofit work and then to ministry, it's connected to that. I grew up without a father. My mother was a single mother for most of my life, certainly from the time I was six or seven, four kids under the age of eight and with no dad. So I saw the fatherhood issue firsthand. I lived it, which kind of motivate me around the book I wrote about Raising Sons of Promise, a guide for single mothers of boys, and then wrote the bad dad of the Bible book based on my work at National Fatherhood Initiative. I became a father very early in life, didn't have a dad, so that was there. And then those perspectives also informed the work that I do at Care Net because the fatherhood issue and engaging men is a central part of a pro abundant life way of looking at the life issue. So as you've heard many times, God doesn't waste pain, and he certainly didn't waste any of that. And all those perspectives that I kind of learned very early on, God brought together when he called me to the Care Net ministry of opportunity here.

And so I brought all that with me when I came to Care Net. Yeah. So when someone says you don't know what it's like to face unplanned pregnancy, for you, that's certainly not true. I'm sure you must have great empathy for people who are in that situation and struggling with the decision they're going to make.

No, absolutely. What you're challenged with is, are you going to sacrifice yourself for the vulnerable, or are you going to sacrifice the vulnerable for yourself? And that's really kind of what makes us human, if you think about it. I mean, the essence of compassion is that you make the decision to not sacrifice the vulnerable for yourself, but to sacrifice yourself for the vulnerable. And that's really what the parenting decision is.

And that's why we call mothers who make this decision to bring their child into the world, even though they can't necessarily see the future. That's why we call them blessed. I mean, that's why Mary was called blessed. She didn't sacrifice the vulnerable Christ inside of her for herself.

She sacrificed herself for the vulnerable. And so that's what's before us. And that's why it's a righteous decision when you choose to bring your child into the world. And I kind of lived that out.

And I saw that with my wife. And that's why I call her blessing, of course. Because even though it was a situation where she could have gone the other way, the reality was that she made that choice. And I'll tell you, the story of Mary was really one of the things that motivated me around this perspective that I have around the life issue. Because see, Mary was facing an unplanned pregnancy from a human perspective. She had hopes and dreams for her life that didn't include a child at this time and in this way. And the angel comes to her and gives her this news. And Mary had all these questions, I'm sure, swirling around in her head. What's my family going to say?

How am I going to take care of this child? What's Joseph going to say? And in the midst of all that, she didn't focus on the uncertainty of what she didn't know. She focused on the certainty of what she did. There was a life growing inside of her.

And it wasn't a life worth sacrificing, but a life worth sacrificing for. And when I started with Karen and I realized that the work that we're called to do, the ministry we're called to do, is really helping women tap into their inner Mary. My wife, though, the way she got pregnant was obviously very different from Mary. The reality was the same after conception, which was, what's my family going to say?

What's my father going to say? All my hopes and my dreams. And like Mary, she didn't focus on the uncertainty of what she didn't know. She focused on the certainty of what she did. And so that's a key part of this. This work is really trying to help women tap into their inner Mary, to ascribe to themselves the virtue and the character of Mary. I'm guessing that looking back on your life at the age of 20, when all of this happened, that had an impact on your relationship with God at that juncture.

Would that be true? There was a real step of real growth in your life at that juncture? Absolutely. Children change everything. And it's interesting because the parenting process is a process that God uses to help you in terms of your spiritual formation. To become more holy, to be more like God, if you will. And that's what we're called to do as Christians.

And so it absolutely is that perspective. When I was faced with this decision and we decided to get married, and then we had a decision to make in terms of whether we were going to walk with Christ or not, and how we were going to do that. And you have to trust.

It's kind of an interesting thing now. It's probably more scary when I look at it now, but we had no visible means of support when we decided to get married. Our parents basically said, OK, you guys want to get married? Well, you're going to be adults and you're on your own.

So really, we got no financial support from anyone else, which is not necessarily what I would recommend. But that was the reality that we faced in that moment. And we just watched God just again and again and again come through, provide us the means to be able to support ourselves and our child. And then all these things that the nurse had told her would never happen.

Well, they all happened because with God, everything is possible. Mm hmm. Yeah. Roland, earlier you mentioned the word abundant, not just pro-life, but pro-abundant life. Let's talk about that phrase and what makes you emphasize that and what is that communicating to you? Well, that really comes from John 10, where Christ said, I came that you might have life and then have that life abundantly. And, you know, Jesus in that in that passage is talking about two types of life. He's talking about physical life, which is kind of the Greek word Bios, B-I-O-S. But he's also talking about a unique type of spiritual life that only comes from relationship with God, which is Zoe.

So essentially, what he's basically saying is I came to link your Bios to my Zoe, that you might be heartbeats that are heaven bound. And so when I started this work with the pro-life movement and I realized that so much of the focus was on Bios, but not on Zoe. In other words, saving the baby, if you will.

It's gone outering, of course. But when you think about this from a Christian perspective, it's not just about saving the baby. It's not just about helping the woman.

It goes way beyond that. We're called for kids to not just have physical life, if you will, but also to have eternal life. Which means that you've got to think about this issue in that way. And so the insight God gave me in that moment was that Jesus wasn't just pro-life. He was pro-abundant life.

How do we know? Because he said, I came that you might have life and have that life abundantly. And so when God downloaded that into my head about 10 years ago, when I started talking about that and thinking about that and studying the scripture that way, I realized that there was a need to expand how you think about this issue so that you anchor it fully in the call of Christ. Christ wasn't just pro-life. He was pro-abundant life.

He said, I came that you might have life and have that life abundantly. And so, hey, you can be an atheist and be pro-life because you're solving for Bias. But you can't be an atheist and be pro-abundant life because you're solving for Bias and Zoe. And I think as Christians, we're called to go beyond just what an atheist would be called to. And that's really where the pro-abundant life perspective comes from and how it's laid out in the book. And I explain that in more detail. Yeah, I like that.

I like that very much. I know that many, many women face this issue and sometimes, you know, husbands involved and sometimes they're just, they're single. But what are some of the reasons that go through a woman's mind that lead her to want an abortion? Well, it's interesting because, you know, going back to my own situation and going back to the story of Mary and Joseph, you know, what did God do to make sure that Mary's unplanned pregnancy wasn't a crisis pregnancy? He didn't give her a social services program, right? What he did was he called Joseph to be a husband to her and a father to the child growing inside of her. Because Joseph, in a lot of ways, faced the same dilemma as any abortion-minded man. He had hopes for his life, dreams for his life. They didn't include a child at this time and in this way. And he actually had a plan.

He was going to divorce her quietly. And the angel comes to Joseph and says, what? Do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. In other words, what you see in the story of the birth of Christ, in the nativity narrative, is that God's response to an unplanned pregnancy and the vulnerability of the woman and the vulnerability of the child was what? To create a family, to call the man, to step into the role, to be a husband to her and a father to the child growing inside of her. And I would add, the first thing that God did, the angel said to him, Joseph, was do not be afraid to take Mary as your what? Baby mama?

No, wife. So in the story of Mary and Joseph, what you find is two sanctities. The sanctity of marriage and family, as God designed, and the sanctity of life. And one of my observations was, when you look at the life issue in terms of how we've kind of looked at this for many, many years, we focus on the sanctity of life, but we didn't focus on the sanctity of marriage and family. Which is why, in many cases, people focus on helping the woman, saving the baby, but not engaging the man and not calling him, like God did, to be a husband to her and a father to the child growing inside of her. And I'll just say, the data actually shows the problem with that. 87% of the women that have abortions are unmarried.

87%. So you can explain to me, how are you going to solve the abortion issue without solving the sanctity of marriage and family issue? And we, the people of the book, should be very much focused on that. And we kind of lost our way, in my view, when we started to focus on this issue from a perspective, in my view, that's not pro-abundant life, but just pro-life.

And so that's a key part of being pro-abundant life. That first pillar is God's design for family, which means that you're not just trying to save the baby, help the mother, but you're reaching the father, you're engaging him, you're inspiring him. God sent an angel to Joseph and called him into a role. And in the same way, frankly, I was called into the same role.

My wife was in a similar dilemma. And what was the reason why she was less likely to have an abortion? Well, by God's grace, God called to me in the same way to Joseph, to be a husband to her and to the father to the child growing inside of her.

Do you see? So this is what it means to be pro-abundant life. You're expanding this perspective, but you're anchoring it in the nativity narrative in the first chapter of the first book of the New Testament. Just thinking of the fathers that might be listening to us today, who out of wedlock impregnated a woman. And how many of them were ever challenged to become the husband and then the father of that child? Well, you know, that's one of the problems.

Candidly, I think for many years, we've treated men the same way that the other side has treated them. So the guys sitting out in the parking lot of Planned Parenthood, they don't want him to come in. They don't want him to do that.

They don't want to be involved in this. It's her body. It's her choice. They want him to act like Adam.

Right? Because really, if you think about the first abortion act was actually in the garden because she said, what, my body, my choice. In other words, I'll take this fruit and do with it what I want because I know what's better for me than you do. And what did Adam do?

He stood silent. Well, that's the same thing that the evil one wants on this issue. And frankly, when you actually look at the data, you know, we did a national survey with Life Wave and we surveyed women who had abortions. And we asked them, who did you talk to about your abortion decision?

We kept a long list of folks, their mother, their best friend, Planned Parenthood, all that. Number one was the father of the baby, guy who got her pregnant. Then we said, who was the most influential in your decision to abort? Guess who it was again? The father of the baby. Did the same survey with post-abortive men.

Right? Asked them, who did she talk to about the abortion decision? Same list. He said me. Then asked them, who was the most influential in her decision to abort? Once again, he said me.

So here's the woman who has the abortion, the guy who supported the abortion, both saying that he's the most influential in the decision to abort. And yet for years, we've done nothing to really engage him in the same way that God sent an angel. Joseph didn't get a smurf or a gnome or something. He got an angel just like Mary.

It was an equal call for him to step into that role. And so being pro-abundant life, you're trying to build a strong family. And if you build a strong family, just like in our case, we faced one unplanned pregnancy. We didn't return again to that same situation.

Why? Because we built a family. Isn't that what we want? Isn't that the hope that we have? Isn't that what we're called to do? I mean, the woman at the well, Jesus met her how many times? Once.

Because she was transformed. And so I believe that if you have a pro-abundant life perspective, you're focused on God's design for family, which means you're trying to engage men, calling them into the role of fatherhood, if you can, to the best of your ability. And that needs to be a primary initiative of any pro-abundant life perspective and pro-abundant life approach. Yeah, that's powerful. Tell us about the chart that changed things for you. The missing support chart.

Oh, yes. Well, I'm a business guy by training, so there's got to be a chart. I've got an MBA, it's got to be a chart.

And so when I first started at Caring It, I said, Lord, help me understand this issue, and I want to put it on one page. And so I drew this chart, which folks who get the book will see, it changed my life. And basically what the chart is called, it's support needed by mothers and children, physical, emotional, spiritual, and social support. And I drew out a graph that basically kind of laid that out, the kind of support that they need. And then I guess the x-axis of the chart really talks about time, conception all the way to birth and then ongoing to your child's 18. And then I drew a line to the right of that chart saying that support needed by mothers and children increases over time. And I realized that a woman is making the pregnancy decision from conception to birth, but her real issue and challenge is the missing support after birth. And if she can't solve that missing support, she's much more likely to have the abortion.

That's what the nurse was talking to my wife about. How are you going to? How are you going to?

How are you going to? And if a woman can't solve that, even if you're loving her up quite a bit from conception to birth, the reality is it's about nine months and one second. Well, God is wise. He has a design to give women the support that they need from birth ongoing.

It's called what? From conception ongoing, which is called what? Husbands and fathers. That's why women who have that, a guy who said that to them are less likely to have an abortion.

So that chart really just framed everything for me. And from a ministry model perspective, I realized that, yes, we need pregnancy centers to provide that initial support in those kind of situations. But the reality is, if you walk into a pregnancy center with a 10 year old, there's nothing they can do for you. Their support is limited here.

So you have to be doing a couple of things. The first thing is we have to be working aggressively to engage men, which is what Care Net's affiliated pregnancy centers do. And I lay that out in the book in great detail. But then there's a second piece to that missing support, which is the call of the church to step into this issue in a very significant way beyond the way that it's been framed in the past. I want to talk about that later on, for sure, because I think it's desperately needed. And I think many churches and leaders wrestle with how do they best get involved in this. Let me go to another subject. What has the abortion pill done to this whole issue? Well, it's changed it dramatically. As a business guy, when I first came to this work, I looked at Planned Parenthood and the abortion providers, not just through ministry glasses.

So you can see that there's the destruction of life and all of that. But I put my business glasses on. I realized this is a consumer marketing company. They believe that abortion is a morally neutral consumer product that women want and need. And I realized that they have a problem in that their product distribution was limited to the physical location. In other words, it wasn't mobile.

It wasn't mobile. And frankly, we actually had an advantage because no one ever walks into a pregnancy center and goes, I saw the accent wall and the window treatments and everything. I knew I could never abort my baby.

They always say it's because of how I was loved and people are mobile. So we had the ability to even turn a Starbucks into a pregnancy center because we could reach people and love them there. Well, as a business person, I looked at this and they got a problem and they know they got a problem.

So they need to figure out a way to delink their product and their service from the physical location. Thus the abortion pill. And it's been very aggressive in terms of how they've marketed this. So now about 63 percent of abortions are now through the pill. They've been able to turn every apartment room, dorm room, bathroom, bedroom into an abortion clinic overnight because of the abortion pill.

It's an absolute game changer. And for business people, which is the way they think about this, if you think abortion is a morally neutral consumer product that women want and need, you're going to approach this like Pepsi or Coca-Cola or like anybody else who sells a consumer product that you think folks should have. And so that's created an enormous opportunity for us, but also a challenge in some ways as well. Yeah. You know, I found that there are there are some people who admit, you know, that an unborn child is a human being.

And yet they say, but the mother's rights trump the child's rights. Talk about that. You mentioned a little bit about that earlier, but talk about that.

Yeah, I really do. I think that, you know, when you start to have that perspective where you're not actually looking at the baby in the womb as a life and you or you say it's a life worth sacrificing. Right. You actually move yourself into a perspective that you're saying that the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should determine its value and worth.

So, for example, I'm a black man like this all day. Right. Slaveholders never were confused about the fact that black people were human.

They just believe that they were life worth sacrificing for their for their wealth. It's the same thing that's happened. It's the same thing that's happening here. Right.

And so there's a parallel between between those two things. And so the transformation that needs to happen in people's hearts and minds is that you need to start having those discussions with people that say, wait a minute, do you believe that the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should determine its value and worth? Now, I think as a culture and a society, we rejected that. Like that's why babies who were born out of wedlock used to be called illegitimate or bastards or whatever. Right. We don't do that anymore.

Why? Because we say, you know what, the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should not determine its value and worth. And when you have that perspective, you actually line yourself up with people out history who have done the most inhumane, most abhorrent things in the human in the human condition.

And so really having that conversation with folks is important. I think the other thing that kind of links into this is that people have a perception about how life begins. And we start to think about life as if it actually is constructed as opposed to it develops. In other words, like a baby is not like a Tesla coming off an assembly line. Like you ask yourself a question, when does a Tesla actually become a Tesla? I mean, when does it? When they put the wheels on, the nameplate, when? Well, the reality is never intrinsically a Tesla.

Why? Because at any moment you can take it and turn it into a toaster and some rubber floor mats, right? Babies are not constructed in the womb. They develop in the womb in the same way that a Polaroid picture develops.

When you first take the picture, it's just a black blob. But in the fullness of time, it develops. And guess what else? It can't be anything else. So when you think about this, your conception and birth should not determine your value and worth. We don't even believe that. Even pro-choice people don't even believe that. But what they've done is dehumanize the baby so that that framework that they have in other situations, they don't apply to this situation.

And that's how you end up with people saying, well, the rights of the rights of this versus the rights of that. You're listening to the Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman podcast. You can find out more about our guest and featured resource at buildingrelationships.us. Roland Warren is joining us. He's the CEO and president of Care Net. His latest book is titled The Alternative to Abortion. Why we must be pro abundant life.

Just go to buildingrelationships.us. Roland, what do you say to the woman who believes that men have no right to have an opinion or a voice in this whole debate? Yeah, this is one of the sort of the classic challenges that we have around this issue. And it's built on sort of a framework that says that if a person is not as intimately affected by a particular situation, they have no agency in that situation. And that's sort of a flawed logic when you think about it, because if a person is impacted by a situation, they should have agency.

For example, one of the analogies I use or illustrations I use with folks is a woman who's a stay at home on. Should she have any say about tax policy? A person who doesn't own a gun? Should they have any say about gun policy?

Someone who doesn't have children in school? Should they have any input in terms of a situation with school funding or a senator who is in Oklahoma? Should they have any say about what happens with things in other parts of the country? And in all those cases, you say, well, of course they do.

Why? Because they're impacted by that. In the same way, the father of the child, right?

Even though they're obviously not as connected to the issue because they're not carrying the child, they still are impacted by that. And the reality is that if you didn't have this perspective, I always tell people all the time, I'm glad we have that perspective, because the argument that you're making there is the same argument that the South was making during slavery time. They were saying to the North, look, no slaves, no say. This argument is no womb, no say. They were saying to the North, no slaves, no say.

But what do we say? Well, there's an injustice happening here. So even though we don't have slaves, we still have an obligation and a responsibility to get involved when there's an injustice.

It's the same thing here. So men should not take the bait on that. And frankly, the culture shouldn't take the bait. If someone is affected by a decision, we want them to have agency in terms of that, especially when there's an injustice that's taking place, which is exactly what's happening with the abortion issue in the same way that that was happening with the slavery issue. A reporter once asked if Care Net, the organization that we're talking about today, was more for the women or for the baby. How did you answer that question?

Yeah, it's very interesting. I was asked that and I told the reporter, I said, it's like you're asking, am I more for breathing in or for breathing out? Right. I mean, they're both essential to life. I reject that entire framework because it really kind of led us down a path that actually excluded men from this conversation. Because when the pro-choice movement sort of brought the issue to the public square with the with the roll decision, they basically said this issue is about a woman and then a question mark. And then they started defining the question mark as about the product of conception, choice. It's complicated.

And they defined it over time. And then we sort of responded and said, no, no, it's about the baby. We have to save the baby. And then eventually the pro-choice movement said, well, you don't care about women, you just care about saving babies. And then we responded, no, we care about women plus babies. And so for many people today, the issue is basically one side, it's a woman plus a question mark, which has been kind of devalued, if you will, or gone from something that's immutable to something that's changeable and flexible. And the other side of the argument, the pro-life arguments about a woman plus a baby. But when you look at that framework, someone's excluded from that, which is the guy.

And so I told the reporter, I reject your entire framing. I think this issue has two sanctities, the sanctity of marriage and family and the sanctity of life. And when you look at the issue that way, which is a pro-abundant life way of looking at this issue, what you find is that men are included in that because you cannot have God's design for family without men.

And as I talked about earlier, look at the solution that you have there, because 87% of the women that have abortions are unmarried. And the other thing, too, when you asked me the question about men and this issue, the reality is that the evil one knows the role that a man can play in saving the life. That's why Adam was compelled to be silent. That's why at an abortion clinic, these men are compelled not to come, not to be involved, because they know what God knows. That when a man steps in and taps into his inner Joseph, that lives are transformed, that there's not just life, but abundant life.

Jesus was given not just life in his humanity, but abundant life in his humanity, and then became abundant life for us all. So God has a design, a design for family that includes men, and get very engaged, and also God has a design for life, which includes men. They are part of the production of life, and they're supposed to be there not just from conception, but ongoing, which is God's design for family, which the evil one wants to support. What about the father who says to the woman that he has impregnated, well, the decision's yours, you know, whatever decision you make is fine with me. Yeah, you know, it sounds like that that is an affirming decision, but the reality is the way that women hear that is not that he's taking responsibility. And unfortunately, in the culture, we've kind of told men that that's the responsible thing to say, but she knows that that's not the responsible thing to say.

I mean, think about it this way. I always tell folks, if a woman tells a guy that she's pregnant, it's not because she wants to hear, I support what decision you make. She knows that. The reality is she doesn't need his support. In fact, if she truly, truly, truly wanted to have the abortion, she probably wouldn't tell him why. She wouldn't want any pressure. I believe that when a woman tells a guy that she's pregnant, in most of these cases, there's the pregnant pause, and she's waiting for the response.

I think she's hoping against hope that he will respond to her in the same way that Joseph responded to Mary, hoping against hope. Otherwise, why tell him? Why tell him?

So that's one of the things that we encourage folks at the pregnancy centers to do. You know, when you ask the woman, well, you know, does the father know? And if she says, well, yes or no? If she says, well, no, he doesn't. Well, why didn't you tell him? And if she says, yes, he does. Why did you tell him? I guarantee you, it's not because she was just hoping and praying he would say, I support whatever decision you make.

That's a non-answer answer. And every woman knows at that moment that she's all alone, that she's facing this mountain of missing support, and that's what leads too often to the abortion decision. Earlier, we talked about the role of the church in all of this. And I know that there are pastors who really draw back from publicly talking about this whole issue, because they don't want to offend their congregation, and because different members might have different ideas on this.

What would you say to pastors today? Well, I think one of the challenges that pastors have, and in a lot of ways, I think, frankly, the pro-life movement in a sense or advocacy approach to this issue actually framed this. We essentially took the issue, we gave it to the politics in a lot of ways.

We sort of exchanged the pulpit for the podium, and we gave it to the politics. And so for so many folks, the issue in the church is viewed as a political issue, rather than being viewed in a biblical sense. You know, one of the things I do, I talked to a lot of pastors. I remember some years ago, I was in Texas, a lot of pro-life pastors. And I said to them, how many became pastors because you want to overturn Roe v. Wade? No one raised their hand. I said, okay, how many became pastors because you want to end abortion in your lifetime? Nobody raised their hand. Then I said, how many became pastors because you wanted to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to make disciples for Jesus Christ?

Every hand shot up. In that moment, God gave me an insight that unless pastors see this issue as connected to the actual central call of the church, it's an issue that they care about. But it's not the core mission of the church.

It's not connected that way. So you have sanctity of life Sunday, but not sanctity of life every day. So one of the things I lay out in the book is that the way you really should be thinking about the life issue is through the two great kind of bookends of the Christian faith, the great commandment and the great commission. All Jesus did was walk out living out the great commandment to fulfill the great commission. That's the call of every Christian, every pastor for your flock is to help them live out the great commandment to fulfill the great commission. Well, abortion is connected to the great commandment and the great commission.

Why? Because in Luke 10 27, where a lawyer comes to Jesus and says, what must I do to inherit the kingdom of God? What does he say? Well, love God with all your heart, your soul, your strength and your mind and love your neighbors yourself. Well, the word for love there is agapeo, which is sacrificial love. And the word for neighbor in the Greek means near one or near fellow. Well, a woman who's pregnant, the child inside of her is her nearest near one.

It's near in terms of proximity and it's near in terms of relationship. And the same with the guy who got her pregnant. So abortion actually is a violation of the great commandment.

Why? Because killing your neighbor is not an act of love for God, love for neighbor or frankly, love for self. And so I think when you start to talk about the issue that way, you say, well, wait a minute. The reason we are focused on the life issue is because we're called to live out the great commandment and loving the neighbor is part of that process. And the woman has a neighbor. She is our neighbor. And she's carrying a neighbor inside of her. And the guy is connected as well. So when we engage on this issue, it's to follow the mandate of Christ to live out the great commandment.

And it's also connected to the Great Commission. Why? We're supposed to make disciples of who? Our neighbors. Well, who's your first discipleship community as a parent?

Your children. Killing one of your children is not an act of discipleship. So the abortion issue, it's a violation of the great commandment and the Great Commission.

Do you see? And those are the two bookends of the Christian faith. And I don't care if you call yourself a progressive Christian or this Christian, everyone's called to live out the great commandment, to fulfill the Great Commission. And I really believe that when you start to talk about this issue that way, it challenges those in the church, even who are pro-choice, even who are calling themselves pro-choice. Why? Because folks who are pro-choice and Christians as well, they also they love the great commandment.

Why? Because all their social justice work is all built on what? The great commandment, loving your neighbor. So I really believe that as you talk about the issue that way from the pulpit and say we support the life issue because we are followers of Christ.

And he gave us two mandates. Live out the great commandment to fulfill the Great Commission. And we do that in every area of our ministry.

Water for the thirsty, food for the hungry, clothes for the naked, homes for the homeless, all viewed as great commandment, great commission issues. Well, compassion for the pregnant is a great commandment and great commission issue as well. You know, I think what you've just said, every pastor needs to hear. And I hope if there are listeners today who are concerned about this issue, that you will get a copy of this book and give it to your pastor.

Because I think if a pastor reads this book and understands the things we're talking about today, they're going to be more empowered in their own heart to address these issues in a more direct and meaningful way. Ron, why is the approach of negotiation based on weeks of gestation, which we hear about, why is that flawed? Well, it's flawed for a couple of reasons. Well, one is that the timeframe that is typically being used, 15 weeks, 96% of abortions happen before that. In fact, the data that just came out from the CDC shows that the majority of abortions happen before 13 weeks. The abortion pill has to be used before 10 weeks. So actually, if you are negotiating from a 15 week perspective, you actually have already seeded the argument and then 20 weeks, which is where a lot of other folks are talking pain capable, that stuff or late term abortion, if you will.

Only 1% of abortions happen after that. So the reality is that talking about from a week space perspective, you've already seeded the argument to the other side. But the other reason it's a problem is because it undermines the core argument that the child is created in the image of God. It's like an incremental approach that undermines your core argument is not an incremental approach that you should be using.

There are some incremental approaches like parental notification, that's an incremental approach that you can use, or some other ones. But when you start negotiating based on weeks, you're actually saying that you're undermining the basic argument. By the way, the pro-choice side does not do that, but they've never negotiated.

Why? Because they believe that this issue is based on a woman's bodily autonomy. So when you ask them, okay, it's based on bodily autonomy, absolutely. So when can we restrict abortion? They say never.

Why? Because as you heard Kamala Harris and others say, look, this is a fundamental right. Now then you come to our side and we say, okay, this issue is based on Imago Dei. And then they say to us, well, when can we allow abortions? And we say, what, six weeks? 15 weeks?

20 weeks? Do you see the problem? I can't think of a single movement that has ever made progress by abandoning their convictions. By moving from a commitment to their convictions to a commitment to the compromise of their convictions. And I believe strongly this is one of the reasons why we have not had the success. No one is drawn to a movement, if you will, that's abandoning its conviction, that's compromising its convictions.

And we've done that over time when we get into a kind of a week's big argument. And frankly, it has a lot to do with the fact that the issue has been given to the political perspective, which is negotiating around, which is willing to negotiate around things as opposed to the moral perspective that is led by the pulpit. It's a non-negotiable because why? Children are created in the image of God.

They're immaculate. It's not negotiable. A child cannot have partial life. They can either have life or death. And we need to be thinking about this issue the same way. And we need to be speaking about it that way in the church. And as Christians, we need to have that conviction because that's a conviction that's connected to the word of God and the mandate that he's given us. The whole issue of rape and incest.

How do you deal with those situations? Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I've got a whole section in the book where I talk about that. And it does really go back to the issue of the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should it determine their value and their worth. And I also have a framework in the book where I talk about compassion pairing, like how do we apportion compassion? Because it is one of the most difficult situations that anyone can face. And a lot of folks who will answer that question say, well, you know, it's less than one percent of abortions are through that.

But for the woman that it happens to, it's 100 percent for her. So we have to have the utmost compassion for her. But when you think about how we apportion compassion, we ask a question.

We say, who's the more powerful? Who's the more vulnerable? And then we apportion compassion based on that.

So in this situation, that's what I do with compassion pairing. You compare the woman to the baby. You say, who's the more powerful? Who's the more vulnerable? And then how do you apportion compassion? And from a pro-life perspective and frankly, typically in a perspective, we say, well, the woman's more powerful, obviously, because the abortion is a power issue.

It's empowerment. And the baby's more vulnerable. And although you have compassion for the woman, you have more compassion for the baby. And so you give the baby life because the reality is, if you don't view it that way, you actually are more compassionate for the rapist. If you do the compassion pairing between the rapist and the baby and you say, who's the more powerful between the rapist and the baby? You say, well, the rapist is more powerful. The baby's more vulnerable. But which one dies in the abortion decision? The rapist. No, the baby.

Yes. And so really, when you start to think about it through that lens, you realize that, look, the circumstances of a child's conception and birth should not determine its value and worth. And with so many women who have carried their children to term, they've realized the exact thing that I'm talking about. They've refused to allow the rapist to extend his power through them to allow them to basically do something where they're taking the life of the vulnerable.

They refuse to let him have that kind of power over him. And so when you hear women who've been raped and bring their children into the world, that's what they say. That's why they do that. They understand instinctively. They do a compassion pairing between the rapist and the baby growing inside of them, as difficult as it is. And they say, no, no, I'm not going to have more compassion for the rapist by killing this child, because then that would make me more like him.

And I refuse to allow him to have that kind of power over me. And that's why these women are blessed. And that's why we call them blessed when they make that kind of very, very difficult decision.

Yeah. Your wife wrote an open letter to college-bound women. Can you tell us a little bit about what she said?

Yeah, it was interesting. My wife's a Texas woman, a Texas girl, and there was a young lady who was valedictorian. She was giving her speech, and she basically hijacked the event to kind of give a speech about abortion. And basically her argument was that, look, if you want to have your hopes and your dreams going forward, we have to have abortion. And so my wife wrote an open letter to her and the other young women in the audience, but also just for women in general, saying, listen, I've been where you've been, but you've never been where I've been. You don't have to sacrifice your child for your hopes and your dreams. My wife is very accomplished, went to Princeton undergrad, did very well there, went to Temple Medical School, was chief resident of her program, was a major in the military. And she's just amazingly accomplished. But she will tell you that the decision to bring our son into the world is the thing that she's most proud of.

And as one who's talked to so many women who made the opposite decision and now have the degrees and all the other things, but they have tremendous regret. Because we know that when we are most like God is when we sacrifice ourselves for the vulnerable, which is exactly what Christ did for us, right? He emptied himself of his power.

He cloaked himself in vulnerability, right, cloaked himself. And he had compassion for us. And we know that. And so when a woman like my wife makes this decision, that's exactly what she's doing. She's more like Christ than anything else. When we are compassionate for the vulnerable, that's when we're most like God. And so we want to encourage women to do that. And that's why in the book, there's a bunch of QR codes for certain parts of the book.

These frameworks I have that apologetic on like is the pro-choice position consistent with the life and teachings of Christ? You can just use your phone and QR code that and just send that to someone else. That letter is one of the pieces in there that you can do. Send that to someone who's about to head off to college or someone who's facing a pregnancy decision when they're in college or high school. There's someone who's made this decision and who's been able to move forward. And I really think that her example is just such a wonderful example of that.

Yeah, powerful. Well, Ronan, as we wrap up today, do you have hope that hearts are changing on the issue of abortion? And how can our listeners be more involved?

Well, I do. But my focus really is that the hearts have to change in the church first. One of the first things that I saw that just really concerned me was when I looked at the data when I first started, was it 65% of the women who had abortions professed to be either Catholic or Protestant.

The Guttmacher data now says about 54%. And I don't think it's because less Christians are having abortions, but because there's less folks maybe calling themselves Christians. But we have an enormous issue in the church.

It's the log in our eye versus the speck in the culture's eye. So you have to start with the church. Jesus didn't start with the Samaritans, the Greeks and all these other folks.

He started with the people of the book. And so we actually need to change abortion in the church. So that's why if you read the book, there are ministry models that we have, like our Making Life Disciples ministry model, which is designed to get folks in the church to create networks to be able to support women and men in the church who are facing pregnancy decisions and connect to those who are outside the church who are facing pregnancy decisions. We have to first change the church on the life issue first. And I think it's one of the things that's been neglected for years and years and years, the fact that so many Christians are boarding as well. It's one of the reasons when you look at the politics, it's the same kind of thing.

The state referendums that are passing, the margin of difference is pro-choice Christians. So we have to start there. And one of the illustrations I use with folks that really kind of illustrate this point, you know, when Jesus was standing before Pilate, Pilate saying, I find no fault in Christ and all that kind of stuff. But eventually, what did he do? He turned to the crowd, because every politician faces Pilate's dilemma, which is, will I give the people what will make them happy, even if I'm a sacrifice the vulnerable to do so?

Every politician faces that. Now, if you want to change the politics, how do you do it? Well, you change the crowd. Well, who in the crowd do you start with? And I tell people, imagine you were in the crowd and you're yelling, Jesus, Jesus, and everybody else is yelling Barabbas.

And you say, how do I change this crowd? And out of the corner of your eye, you see Bartimaeus, the blind beggar that Jesus healed. And you see that he's yelling Barabbas.

What would you do? You go over to him and say, Bartimaeus, dude, what are you doing? You know him. And he said, well, the crowd and this and the other. You said, yell with me, Jesus. You know how he lived out the great commandment to fulfill the great commission in your life. And he begins to yell, Jesus.

And then you see out of the corner of your eyes, the woman with the issue of blood. In other words, the people that you have to start with in the crowd are the people who know him, the people who know him. And that's really what my book is focused on. First, mobilizing the church to be the church inside the church on the life issue. And then we will have removed the log in our eyes so we can see the speck in the culture's eye to have the transformation.

Transformation starts in the church to the culture, not the other way around. And that's the difference between being pro-life and pro-abundant life and why the alternative to abortion, why we must be pro-abundant life is a book that I've written and why God kind of downloaded this into my brain. Well, Ron, I want to thank you for not only being with us today on this program, but for writing this book. I think it's going to be helpful to many of our listeners.

And I just want to reiterate what I said earlier. If you're in a church, can I just challenge you to not only get a copy of this book for yourself, but buy one and give it to your pastor? Because I think most pastors, they're open.

They're looking for voices to speak into this issue. And this book can be a tremendous help to any pastor. So thanks again for being with us today, and may God continue to give you wisdom in the ministry that you were involved in. Thank you so much, and thank you for having me on the show. I appreciate it so much.

You can find out more about Roland Warren and the book The Alternative to Abortion, Why We Must Be Pro-Abundant Life at the website buildingrelationships.us. Again, go to buildingrelationships.us. And next week, we open the phone lines for your questions. Having a marriage struggle?

Parenting concern? Call us with your question right now at 1-866-424-GARY. That's 1-866-424-4279. And don't miss our January Dear Gary broadcast in one week. A big thank you to our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Bakke. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.