Her Freedom Journey | Dr. Juli Slattery

It is an ongoing battle at times, but also a destination of keeping your eyes fixed on Jesus and trusting that as we pursue Him, He is going to get the victory in our lives. It may not be quick. It's not going to be easy. It's going to require courage and determination.

But there is freedom in this journey. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Today, Dr. Julie Slattery talks to women about the spiritual battle around sexuality.

Pornography addiction is seen by many as a men's struggle, but today's conversation will help women who are caught in an addiction and feel like they'll be stuck the rest of their lives. Our featured resource is the book, Her Freedom Journey, and it's co-written by our guest today. Dr. Julie Slattery will join us straight ahead, and you can find that book at buildingrelationships.us. It's co-written by Dr. Joyce Karka, and the subtitle is A Guide Out of Porn and Shame to Authentic Intimacy. Again, find out more at buildingrelationships.us. And Gary, before we get to Dr. Slattery, I think it's important for parents who might have young children listening to know the content of today's program might not be suitable for young children, but the reason we're tackling this tough topic is the growing number of women who are not finding help in the church for this issue.

Well, it's true, Chris. I think the church is often silent on this, and of course, you know, there's certain places in morning worship services where you wouldn't necessarily be trying to give individual help on this, but I do think the churches need to be more aware and more tuned in to where people can find help in this area. So I'm excited about our program and also about this book.

Yes. Well, let me reintroduce Dr. Julie Slattery, who has been with us many times. She is the president and co-founder of Authentic Intimacy, a ministry dedicated to reclaiming God's design for sexuality. She's the host of the weekly podcast, Java with Julie. She's written or co-authored 12 books, including Passion Pursuit, Rethinking Sexuality, and 25 Questions You're Afraid to Ask About Love, Sex, and Intimacy, and she's a member of the board of trustees at Moody Bible Institute. She and her husband, Mike, have three grown sons and they live in Akron, Ohio. The featured resource today is the book she co-authored with Dr. Joyce Skarka, titled Her Freedom Journey, A Guide Out of Porn and Shame to Authentic Intimacy.

You can find out more at buildingrelationships.us. Well, Dr. Slattery, welcome back to Building Relationships. Always so good to be with you.

Thanks for having me. You know, your authentic intimacy ministry has been there for women in all kinds of struggles. Talk about this particular battle for women and how pervasive you think it is in our culture. Well, it certainly has grown over time. I think if we were to have this conversation 10 years ago, we would say that there was a percentage of the population, maybe 20% of women who are struggling with pornography, and we would have been pretty quiet about it, which the church has traditionally been. I think a lot of people believe that this is primarily a man's issue and not a woman's issue, but the statistics would show us that about 40 to 45% of women are engaging with pornography. And then when we look at the younger generations, there was a study that recently came out that looked at women ages 18 to 35 and found that 72% of them had looked at pornography within the last six months. And then if you even go below the age of 18, teenagers that have access to devices, they're being exposed to pornography at very young ages. So this is as much as an issue for women today as it is for men.

Yeah, yeah. And I think many of our listeners would not be aware of that. You and Dana Grash wrote a book a few years ago that addressed concerns about romance novels and erotica. Are there parallels between that project and this book?

Yeah, boy, that's a good question. Yes, we wrote the book Pulling Back the Shades about 11, 10, 11 years ago, and that was really in response to what some might remember the 50 Shades of Grey phenomenon. And so that resource really helped women understand the dangers of erotica, particularly the 50 Shades of Grey books and movies. And there would have been some parallel in just talking about an issue that is pretty taboo and then also really helping women understand the spiritual struggle underneath some of these sexual temptations. But this book is unique in that we're really talking about pornography and we're talking about sexual addiction, which exists among women, particularly young women. And this book also is in a workbook format, which we're super excited about because it takes women into God's Word. It helps them reflect on some of the struggles they're having and what it looks like to actually find freedom. And it's a great resource for women to go through in a group format where they can find that kind of community and support that can help them really address this struggle.

Well, I think it's a much needed resource. You know, your co-author, Dr. Joy Skarka, was unable to be with us today. She had a mentor, however, in her own life who was vulnerable and open about her struggles with pornography, and that gave Joy the ability to open up about her own struggles. Is that right? Is that the background?

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, Joy struggled with pornography when she was in college. She was a new Christian, and she went to a Campus Crusade for Christ event. And she heard a woman get up and share about her struggle with pornography, and that was the first time Joy had ever heard a woman say out loud those words. And immediately she felt like she wasn't alone. And so Joy went up to that woman, thanked her, shared her own struggle. And that started just as a discipleship process where they met every week for many months just at a local coffee shop and started studying God's Word. And that was a huge part of Joy's healing and freedom journey. Yeah.

Wow. How do you find a person like that who will not judge you or shame you, but who is willing to walk with you through the process of finding relief? Yeah, boy, that's a great question. I think, number one, we pray for that person, for God to bring somebody in our pathway. I think we look for places and like ministry venues where people are being vulnerable.

You know, Joy knew that she was safe because that other woman went first. And at our ministry, we have online book studies and groups where it's made up of women who are vulnerable about their struggles. And so we try to connect individuals to others who want to help create those spaces. But I think even within your local church, you know, look for the woman of God who is vulnerable, who doesn't have to appear perfect but has wisdom. And I'd also say that it's okay to swing and miss for the first time. You know, I think there's sometimes we open up and we share a struggle and maybe it's not the right fit.

And then the enemy wants us to never share that again. But keep looking for that person who would say, thank you for sharing that, or me too, like I've got my own struggles, or I struggle with pornography as well. Because I think when we're honest with what we're dealing with, you're going to find that so many women around you have similar struggles and really have a heart to want to engage in those kinds of authentic conversations. Julie, can you give us the website of your ministry where women might go and find some direction along these lines? Sure, authentic intimacy.com.

And if you look under our resources, you'll see online book studies, and we run those quarterly. So we have people from all over the world that join those and they're capped at 12 women. So with a trained leader, and it's just a great way to take that first step with people who are going to be vulnerable. And even sort of the anonymity of, okay, this isn't somebody that I'm going to run into at the grocery store. So that's a good first step for a lot of women just to start talking about something they don't know how to talk about.

Yeah. I hope our listeners are, if you didn't get that, authentic intimacy.com and click on online books. I think there are many women, Julie, who are struggling and they don't know where to turn. They don't even know the first step. And this might be the first step for many of them.

Yes, that's what we hope and pray for. Julie, Dr. Skarka writes in the book about being exposed. When she was in the fifth grade at a sleepover, she saw pornography and it brought some shame. But as you mentioned a little bit ago, when she went to college, some of the seeds sown earlier became an addiction. Can you walk us through some more of Joy's story and the process that it took for her to move toward health?

Yeah. So a lot of women's stories, and this is true of men as well, they're exposed to pornography at that really young age. And they start using pornography as a way of coping with life through the teenage years in high school.

That didn't happen with Joy. It awakened a curiosity when she was in fifth grade. But when pornography really got a hold on her was her freshman year of college. Her first week at college, she was date raped. And this just sent her into a spiral of depression. She didn't want to leave her room, fear, all kinds of confusion. And so she turned to pornography to try to make sense of what had happened to her.

And that's when the enemy really got a foothold in her heart and this became an enslaving addiction. And she wasn't able to tell anybody about the rape that she had suffered, what she was struggling with. And then she met Jesus shortly thereafter and became a Christian. But like a lot of Christians, she didn't know what to do with the sexual pain, with the questions and the shame. And so she started growing in her faith, but didn't know how to integrate it into some of the struggles that she was having related to sexuality.

And again, that's very common. There are so many Christians who love the Lord. They feel like their pornography struggle or their sexual wounds are kind of compartmentalized.

And they don't know how to integrate the love of God and the freedom of God into that aspect of their lives. And so that's why it was so powerful for Joy to see another Christian who could show her what it looked like. To take everything she was learning about God and integrate it into the questions that she had around sexuality. You know, Julia, we talked about this earlier that we typically think in terms of pornography being a problem for men. And of course, you know, I've observed that through the years. And you gave us some statistics in terms of women who are now involved in pornography. Why do you think we have, in the past, limited our thinking that this was a man's problem? Well, I think traditionally it was more predominantly a man's problem.

It wasn't exclusively so. But pornography was created for men in that day and age. You think of Playboy and Hustler and, you know, the magazines that would get boys hooked and men hooked on pornography. And men tend to be more visual in their sexual response and so they would be naturally more drawn to pornography the way it was created in the past. But we have to understand that pornography is a multi, multi, multi-billion dollar industry.

You know, I read some reports that the porn industry actually brings in more money than the NHL, the NBA, and the NFL combined. And so they are very strategic about capturing their audience. And so from what I understand, you know, several years ago, they decided, hey, we've pretty much saturated the male market. Let's go after the women.

You know, let's go after the kids. And so the makers of pornography have been very intentional about tailoring pornography. I mentioned Fifty Shades of Grey, which is an example of that, but tailoring pornography in a way that would be something that would capture the imagination of women. And so female pornography often has more of a storyline or romance thread, at least initially. And then women have the same kind of wiring that men do in terms of the dopamine and the adrenaline and all the amazing chemicals that God designed to be released during a sexual encounter that can become very addictive.

And so it's both intentional, but then also the fact that, you know, it kind of caught us unaware because we weren't thinking that this would be something that women would be susceptible to, but they certainly are. Well, you mentioned earlier the shame that women have, Christian women especially have when they struggle with porn. Address that issue a bit more, if you will.

Sure. You know, I think men who are struggling with pornography have shame as well, particularly Christian men who know that this is not what God's design for their sexuality is. So you take that shame and you add on to it the additional shame that the narrative is really that women shouldn't struggle with this, that even women shouldn't be sexual. And so women in general struggle more with shame even around their God-given sexuality. And then when it's being expressed in a way that they know is wrong, that they know other people would judge them for or look down on them for, they feel so much shame that they don't even know who to confess this to. And women like Joy would sit in a church service and hear a pastor say, we know a lot of you men are struggling with pornography. And that statement in and of itself would create more shame like, oh, well, how about me? Is there something wrong with me?

Am I weird that I'm a woman and I have the struggle? No one's even acknowledging it. And so women who struggle with pornography often have layer upon layer when it comes to shame. Yeah. Let's back up a little and talk to the person who maybe thinks pornography is not bad. You know, from a Christian perspective and from a wholeness perspective, why is porn wrong?

Yeah. You know, I'm glad you asked from both perspectives. If we look at it from a Christian perspective, we've got to understand and recognize that God created the gift of sexual expression and sexual intimacy to be something that is celebrated within the covenant of marriage. And that anytime we are having a sexual experience outside of that covenant relationship, even if we're with our spouse and we're thinking about someone else, that we're violating God's standard for sexuality and his purpose of sexuality. And the scripture is really clear about that from a theological perspective.

But Gary, we also know that when God sets something in place in our world, when we go against that, there's even the world, the natural order of the world that even if you don't believe in God, you're going to experience the consequences of that. And that's certainly what we see when it comes to pornography. You know, there are many organizations and individuals who are speaking out against pornography who don't even have a faith in God, but they're saying this is killing us. Pornography fuels the sex trade industry. It really plays into sex trafficking. The research shows that the majority of those who are performing in pornography are doing so without their willing consent.

They're often drugged. So you look at that side of what's happening to the humanity of the people who are creating pornography, but you also look at what pornography does to the brain. And the research consistently shows that heavy use of pornography will lead to depression, anxiety, alienation in relationship, feelings of shame, and also often acting out against what you know to be right or wrong. And so when we look at even the kind of abuse that we see happening in our society, if you tell someone when they're 10 years old, you can look at whatever you want to look at and you feast on this for years and years and years, there's a good chance you're going to end up acting out on it. And so pornography sabotages intimacy in our relationships and our marriages. It causes sexual dysfunction. So, you know, I could go on and on and on and cite how this is harmful for individuals and for society. There's just nothing good about it.

Yeah. I'm glad to hear you refer to research and all in this area, because I think sometimes people simply think, well, Christians are against anything and everything today. But it's not just the Christian position on this issue. As you said, it's certainly backed up by research. You write in the book that porn is not your biggest problem.

What do you mean by that? Yeah, like Joy's story indicates, you know, she was using pornography to deal with a deeper issue of the trauma she experienced, her confusion around sexuality, some of the lies that were planted in that event of my body is bad, sex is bad. And this is true, almost without exception, that we end up using pornography to cope with something that is deeper. And again, the research continues to show this, that pornography is often used to deal with negative emotions. It's used to deal with sexual confusion. It can be used to deal with sexual trauma.

It can be used to deal with alienation and loneliness and boredom. And so what we really want women to understand is that you can't just say, I promise I'm never going to look at porn, and then walk away and be free. We have to invite God into the places that are causing us to want to look at pornography.

What is the deeper issue going on? And this is true for men and women, but healing really comes from being willing to go to those deeper places that fuel pornography use. And it may be unique for every woman, but there's always an underlying issue that needs to be addressed in order to really feel like you can be free from using pornography. And would you say that many times a woman will not be able to see or understand what the background is to that behavior without some help outside from a counselor or someone else who has walked this journey?

Yeah, 100%, absolutely. I think this is true of all of us. We all can end up misusing God's good gifts in a way that just helps us cope with life. We can misuse food.

We can misuse exercise. We can have codependent relationships. And we usually can't see that in our own lives. We need someone else to start helping us peel back the layers of why we have ended up in patterns that are not productive and are really harmful. And that's the process of counseling. It's the process of good community and ultimately the process of the Holy Spirit. I'm really thankful that God in one moment doesn't expose all the things in me that need to be fixed, or I would just be devastated, overwhelmed. He invites us on a process of saying, all right, here's a problem.

Let's start to be prayerful and thoughtful of understanding how we got to that place and how we actually start pursuing healing. Is there a difference between occasional porn use and addiction to porn? Yeah, there definitely is.

They both are destructive. And you can be an occasional porn user and still be addicted. So, for example, if you use pornography every time you feel rejected, but that rejection comes only every other week or not very often.

It's like you got rejected by a boyfriend or something. You're still in some ways addicted to pornography, but it's not a daily addiction. When we talk about addiction, we look at some classic symptoms of addiction like tolerance. And for substance abuse like alcohol and drugs, usually tolerance means you need more of the drug in order to have the same impact. With sexual addiction or pornography addiction, instead of needing more, you actually need novelty.

You need something different for your brain to respond with the same level of chemistry than it did before. And so this is why a woman might start out reading a racy romance novel. And a few years later, she finds herself watching very explicit or violent pornography.

And she says, how in the world did I get here? And you got there because you developed a tolerance and it was pushing you to always try something new. And so we look for tolerance.

We look for dependence. Again, using pornography to deal consistently with a certain feeling or problem. We also look at the fact that you can't stop. And again, there might be a woman who is like, yeah, I went two weeks without using pornography, but then you fell back into it. And so when there's that sense of not being able to control your behavior or stop, that's a sign that there is an addictive pattern going.

And with any addiction, that's going to be much harder to deal with and break than just simply something that you occasionally do. So the freedom that you're talking about is not simply behavior modification. There is something that needs to go on the inside in order to move toward health or wholeness that is not simply, I'm not going to do that anymore, right?

Yes, that is so right. And I've been in this ministry for 12 years now of helping people navigate sexual issues in the context of the Christian faith. And if there is one thing I'd say I've learned, and I keep going back to again and again, is that God doesn't just want to fix our behavior. He's not just about us getting to the place where we're avoiding sin. He wants everything surrendered to Him. And I think so often the message in the church around sexuality only looks at behavior and only looks at you need to stop sinning. You need more self-control instead of realizing that God wants us to invite Him into our wounds, into our shame, into our experiences of trauma.

And we find ultimate lasting freedom when God is in all those areas of our life, not just in giving us the strength to resist a sinful behavior. This is the Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman podcast. Thanks for listening and for telling others about our conversations. When you go to fivelovelanguages.com, you can find more ways to strengthen your relationships.

Just click the Resources tab, and you'll find the podcast there and today's featured resource. Again, go to fivelovelanguages.com. Dr. Slattery, what are some of the common things that keep a woman stuck in pornography instead of finding freedom? Yeah, you know, I think some of the things that we've talked about that I'd love to just kind of pull out in name. First of all, if she is trying to deal with this by herself, it is virtually impossible for you to just make this decision that I'm going to get free from this and to do that all alone. Even you and God, you know, like God created us to be in community. Our sexual brokenness often happened in relationship. And so in order to heal, we really do need to take that step of sharing with another person, with asking for help, with asking for a supportive community. And so I think women who feel like they have to keep this a secret, they don't have a safe place, they just need to deal with this on their own, they're going to feel stuck. I think the second thing is, again, just that behavioral approach where they really believe that this is just an issue of self-control.

And the more they memorize Bible verses and the more they pray and the more they order their environment, that will take care of the problem. That gives us the gift of self-control. But as we've been talking about, there's so much more to it that there are lies that we believe underneath our pornography use.

That there are often wounds that have not been healed or even mentioned or addressed that really need attention. And so we also need to have a healthy view of what God created sex for, not just reminders of what He didn't create it for. And so I think women that try to take that simplistic approach of, I'm just going to stop, may find victory for a short period of time, but end up falling back into pornography and feeling worse and more hopeless in the long run. So it's not just a matter of trying harder not to be involved in pornography or to avoid pornography. It's not just a matter of trying harder. We have to deal with the issues that are promoting and pushing us in that direction, right?

Yeah. You know, I really love Romans chapter 6, 7, and 8, because I think it fleshes this out for us so well. In Romans chapter 6, Paul talks about how there's this ongoing battle between our flesh, our sinful nature, and the life of the Holy Spirit in us.

And we will give ourselves as slaves to one or the other, either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. And then Paul talks about in Romans chapter 7 how he's tried to do the right thing. He's tried to please God, but he doesn't understand why he keeps doing the thing he promised not to do anymore.

And he feels like he's losing this battle. And then in Romans chapter 8, it's like a complete paradigm shift where he talks about the power of the Holy Spirit in him, that it's not him who's making the right choice. It's his surrender to the power of the Holy Spirit and the grace of God. And I found that to be very true in all of our sin struggles, including this one with pornography. Usually we try to beat it in our own strength and we want to do the right thing, and we end up feeling so discouraged that we're falling back again and again into sin. And then God is saying, Hey, listen, I'm not asking you to get it right. Just bring it to me.

Surrender it to me. Just give yourself to the power of the Holy Spirit and the grace of God. And it's very counterintuitive because I think most of us really feel like the Christian life is about trying harder, when in reality, the gospel says that the power of the Christian life really comes through our surrender and through taking on the gift that has been given to us by grace and really abiding with God in a daily basis through the power of the Holy Spirit.

I trust that our listeners who are struggling in this area will just make a note of those three chapters, Romans chapter six, seven and eight, which you've mentioned, because I do think that that's a foundation in terms of moving in the right direction. The title of the book is Her Freedom Journey, talking about joys on journey. Why did you choose the word journey? And what does that journey look like? Yeah, boy, that word journey is very intentional because, you know, honestly, we're all on a journey of freedom, whether you struggle with sexual sin or pornography or you struggle with pride or what you name it, you fill in the blank. We are all on the journey of being more and more surrendered to the likeness of Christ. And I think when we put a sin struggle like pornography within the context of journey, it takes away what we often think of as a pass fail test. You know, either I'm pure and I'm following God's design for sex or I'm messing up.

When in reality, you know, our righteousness comes through Christ and then walking in that righteousness is a lifelong journey of maturity and again, learning to surrender. And so we want women to understand that this is not a one and done. It's not a three step process and your porn struggle is solved.

It is an ongoing battle at times, but also a destination of keeping your eyes fixed on Jesus and trusting that as we pursue him, he is going to get the victory in our lives. But it may not be quick. It's not going to be easy. It's going to require courage and determination, but there is freedom in this journey. Yeah. Well, what are some of the practical steps that a woman can take in pursuing this journey to freedom?

Yeah, we have designed the book to kind of map out what that journey can look like. And so we have some really practical steps like stepping into light, being honest about your struggle and doing some work, even within a small group or with a counselor of what are the things that trigger me to use porn? What am I using porn for?

What are the underlying issues? You know, looking at your need for intimacy. So often in our world, we replace sex for intimacy when what we're really longing for is we want to be known. We want to be loved. We feel lonely.

We feel unseen. And so how do you begin building intimate relationships, not just within a marriage relationship, but in friendship, the community of God where you feel connected and you have less of a need to feel like you need to rely on something like pornography? We talk about learning healthier ways to cope with things like loneliness or boredom or depression. We talk about inviting God to rewrite our story and to actually use our stories of brokenness as weapons against the enemy, as Joy has done with her own story.

So those are some of the steps that women will find as they go through her freedom journey. Well, let's say that there's a parent listening and they have found porn on a daughter's device. What would be a good approach for that mom or that dad to take? Yeah, you know, I think first of all, you know, what we're learning in our culture is it's not if you're going to find porn on your son or daughter's device. Unfortunately, it's when that this has become so prominent, not just pornography, but sexting and other ways that that teenagers are communicating using inappropriate sexual behavior. This is just it's impacting almost every kid. And so, you know, I think being prepared for the fact that your daughter will see pornography, that your daughter is likely to be asked to send inappropriate photos, like this is just happening.

It's normal today. That really helps you prepare to have the conversations before to talk about the fact that these things are very normative in culture, to talk about what God's design for sex is, to create an environment where your daughter can talk to you instead of hiding. And this is very difficult to do when you're a parent and you're sort of shocked by what you see your daughter or son is looking at, but to really have your first response be one of love and grace. Because, you know, none of us want to get stuck in this.

None of us, whether we're 15 or 50, want to be stuck in sexual sin and there's a lot of shame around it. So having your first response be, wow, honey, I see this. I just want you to know that there's nothing you can do that you can't talk to me about or that I'm going to judge you for. And that first encounter needs to be one of just creating a safe spot space because your son or daughter already knows, they already feel bad about it.

So you don't need to add on to that. And then in the following days, having some more discussion about what the struggle is and how they found pornography. And again, with a very shepherding kind of behavior, not judgmental. And then just more, okay, how do we learn from this?

How do we grow? And so you really want to create that atmosphere where it's an ongoing conversation, not something that involves punishment, but really discipleship instead. Dr. Larry, what does the enemy of our souls want women to think who are addicted to pornography? Boy, he's very clear about his lies. He will tell you the lie that you can never be free.

He will tell you the lie that this has damaged you so much that you can never be whole again or that you've given up something that can never be recovered or God can't forgive you. So those are some of the common things that women believe when they're really hooked on pornography. And the enemy's lies can feel so true, which is why it's so critical for us to bring them into the light, the light of people who love us and the light of God's Word and His love for us.

Yeah. With God, we can break whatever the bondage is in our life. Yeah, very true. How has the church done with this whole issue and other related struggles in this area? Yeah, you know, I think we have inherited generations of a history of a church that doesn't talk about sexuality. It just was sort of an unspoken rule that you just don't talk about sex within a church context. And, you know, there have always been people who have been wounded and have struggled, but I think they've struggled in silence.

And sometimes we would just say, Okay, you need to go see a counselor and dealing with that there. But I really have seen within the last several years, the church make a shift and say, No, this is actually part of discipleship. Like we can't effectively help people know God and follow Him without being very honest about the kinds of struggles we have around sexuality. And there's been some great ministries that have equipped the church, including like Pure Desire. I know Pure Desire and Barna just had a huge study come out on pornography with the purpose of equipping the church.

Covenant and I have done a lot of work and working with churches. So I think it's a new era. We're learning how to do this well, but I'm really encouraged to see that church is starting to become a safe place to be honest about some of these struggles and to get God centered help.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think the church is becoming more aware of the need here. You know, the recent years, Julie, I have had wives in my office who are complaining to me or asking me, you know, said, My husband is trying to get me to look at pornography with him. And I don't feel comfortable doing this, you know, and I respond to this. How would you respond to that lady? Yeah, you know, unfortunately, Gary, this is one of the main ways that girls and women are introduced into pornography is through a man asking them to engage in it.

And boy, it breaks my heart. You know, when I read if Ephesians chapter five, we all kind of know that's the verse that tells husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church. But it goes on to say that part of a man's role within marriage is to purify his wife, to present her to himself as a pure and spotless pride.

And boy, I think introducing a wife or girlfriend to pornography does the exact opposite. You're actually introducing immorality into this woman's life, which is the opposite of what God calls godly men to actually be like. So I think it's critical for men to understand the importance of dealing with their own pornography struggles, their own temptations, but also to recognize that part of standing as a godly man and fighting for righteousness is fighting for the really the purity of women and wanting to be the kind of refining influence in our culture that protects women instead of violating women. And for that woman who's in that situation, you know, this is one of those situations where your husband or your boyfriend is asking you to do something that goes against clearly what God has asked you to do. And so we always will stake our claim on I need to do what God is asking me to do, even if it makes somebody that I love upset. I need to stand on what God has said.

Yeah, that's good. And I've sometimes said, you can say to him, I love you too much to do that. I love you too much to violate what I believe God has said. That's a great response. Julia, as we come toward the end of our time together, just say a word to that wife out there who is listening today, who maybe hasn't even heard anybody address this, you know, they're just struggling with their own sense of guilt and shame and so forth.

And they're really tuned into us today. What would you say to them as we come toward the end of our time? Yeah, I would just say to you, you are not alone. You know, next time you go into a gathering of Christians, I want you to imagine that about 30 to 40% of those women that you see have a similar struggle, maybe even more than that. They're silent.

They're not saying it out loud, but that doesn't mean they're not struggling. You know, one of the things that we do at Authentic Intimacy is whenever we do an event or a conference, we allow people to text anonymously any question they have. And every single room I've been in, it doesn't matter what city, what denomination, what church, there are always questions about pornography, questions about recovering from trauma, questions about I've cheated on my spouse, nobody knows this. This is common.

It doesn't mean that it's normal or right. God does not want us to live in this place, but it is common. And you would be shocked to know how many sisters around you have a common struggle who also feel isolated and are just looking for safe space to pursue healing together. And so I think it's critical that we are prayerful for God to make those connections for us and to begin providing spaces in every church and every community where women who are struggling can find the kind of community and help that they need. You know, I hope if pastors may be listening today or church leaders, they would get this book because it would be a good starting place for them as well in terms of understanding this whole issue. And then think in terms of perhaps starting a group in a church, a small group for those who are struggling in this area. This book would be a good guideline for that as well.

I just think we've got to do more and be more open and honest in dealing with this issue. So I'm very grateful for Joy and her sharing her own journey toward freedom. And also, Julie, for you working with her in this project and for you making also available your website where it can be a starting place also for people. Give us that website one more time for the ladies who said, I missed that a while ago.

Sure. The website is authentic intimacy dot com, and you can find the online book studies that we mentioned earlier if you'd like to go through a book like this online with other women. We also have the Java with Julie podcast with lots of conversations around this issue and others and just really want to encourage and resource you for the journey of what it looks like to honor God in this area of your life. All right.

That's authentic intimacy dot com. Julie, thank you for being with us today and sharing on this topic. And thank you for working with Joy and putting this book together.

I do believe that God will use this to help many women who are struggling in this area. So thanks again for being with us today. It's been my joy.

Thanks so much for letting me share about it. Once again, Dr. Julie Slattery has been with us. You can find out more about our featured resource at Building Relationships. You as the title is her freedom journey, a guide out of porn and shame to authentic intimacy written by Dr. Slattery, along with Dr. Joyce Scarco. Again, go to Building Relationships.

Us. And next week, find out what it takes to become a gospel mom. Emily Jensen and Laura Whiffler will join us in one week. Before we go, let me thank our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Backing. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.