The Influential Mentor - Maina Mwaura

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That's fallshare.org. See you there. He just modeled humility, and we need so much of that today in our culture. And so I learned from him how to lead people well from behind the scenes without being noticed. You are going to enjoy the conversation with Mina Mora today as we talk about a labor of love for him, a book he wrote titled The Influential Mentor, how the life and legacy of Howard Hendricks equipped and inspired a generation of leaders.

You can find out more at our website, buildingrelationships.us. Gary, I think Dallas Seminary was the only school you didn't attend all through the years. Did you ever have contact with Dr. Hendricks?

I did, Chris. You know, years ago, I directed our college ministry at our church for 10 years, and I would take college students to what was then called Campus Crusade for Christ. Conferences. And he often spoke at those conferences. So that's where I heard him.

That's where I met him and interfaced with him. And I really enjoyed reading the book that we're going to be discussing today. So I'm glad that Mina is with us. And I know our listeners, whether you knew Dr. Hendricks or not, you're going to learn some positive things that will influence your own life. And I'm excited about our conversation today. Yes, and you might hear Dr. Hendricks' voice throughout the program today.

Be ready for that. Let's meet our guest, Mina Mara. He's a freelance writer and journalist who's interviewed more than 500 influential leaders, including two U.S. presidents and three vice presidents and many more. He's learned what it takes to not only lead well, but to mentor well, which is part of the story that we're going to be discussing today. Mina and his family live in Georgia. Our featured resource, again, is The Influential Mentor.

You can find out more about it at buildingrelationships.us. Well, Mina, welcome to Building Relationships. How are you doing, Dr. Chapman and Chris? It's so good to be here with both of you, man.

It's a dream, to be honest with you. It's good to be here with you. Well, we are glad that you are with us, man. Looking forward to this conversation.

Before we get to the topic, tell us a little bit about you, your family, so that our audience gets a little more acquainted with you. Well, I got to tell you, Dr. Chapman, that's a great question. It's a Monday morning here. And so every Monday morning, our daughter, her name is Zion. We always are just trying to just make it work on Mondays when it comes to going to school.

So I'm laughing at this question to a certain degree. I'm married to just a great wife. Her name is Tiffany, and I'm so thankful for her. I've been married for 17 years, and my daughter, Zion, who is 10, going on 20.

Dr. Chapman, we're still trying to figure out her love language here. And at the same time, just trying to be the best dad and husband that I can be. But the most important thing is that, man, I'm so thankful that I'm a Christ follower. Man, I'm thankful that I have a perfect father, and I don't know where I would be without him.

And so a lot of things will change in my life. I'm so thankful, though, that my relationship with him will never change. So I'm just in all that today. Well, I think all of us can agree with that.

Without him, we can do nothing. But with him, life is great. Not always easy, but great. It is great, though. It really is.

Absolutely. Now, why did you want to tackle this topic of Howard Hendricks and the people that he influenced? What led you to writing this book? You know, Dr. Chapman, I have to be honest with you guys here. I really did not think I could be an author.

I'm a journalist, but even that came by mistake seven years ago, to be honest with you. And so it's one of those things where when Dr. Goetz and I were on the phone just talking about this, I thought to myself, I barely get out just articles on time, to be honest with you. A book, Dr. Chapman, I thought to myself, there is no way that I can do this. And I'm so thankful that we have good people that got places in our lives, Dr. Chapman, that literally says, yes, you can. And you were one of those people, in fact, by the way, and I'm so thankful for you, that just said, you know what, Mina, I think you can do this. And when I started going back, looking at just my own life, Dr. Chapman, and looking at the folks who I've interviewed, the key word just came up over and over again, mentor. And that's where I thought just to myself, man, we can do nothing without Christ, but we also can do nothing without the people that God places in our lives to. And so that's where mentors come into play.

Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. Now, for those who don't know about his life, tell us about Dr. Hendricks. Give us just a broad overview of his life before we dig into other things. Yeah, he was an incredible man, to be honest with you. He really could have been a household name, and he wasn't. When I looked at just who he is and what he did in the body of Christ, I have to say to myself, he was a for such a time as this leader, Dr. Chapman.

And what I mean by that is, you know, he becomes a seminary professor, and that's all that he did for his entire adult life at DTS, Dallas Theological Seminary there. And he mentored everyone from Robert Jeffers to Tony Evans to Andy Stanley to Jenny Allen and a whole host of hundreds of other students there. And they were all unique.

They were all different. But Howard found a way, though, to mentor well no matter who the mentee was, which to me was just extraordinary just about his life. And that he was able to do what God called him to be and to do for such a time as this. Well, I think as you listed some of those names of people who were mentored by him, our audience would be familiar with many of those names, even though they may not have heard of Howard Hendricks.

So yeah, that's a great legacy. Now, part of the overflow of this book is to encourage being a mentor, that is those of us who are listening, or finding a mentor, you know, depending on where we are in our journey. Can you give us a definition of mentor and what that looks like? Yeah, a mentor can be anyone, Dr. Chapman, someone who is willing to give their life away and to allow the mentee to step into it to see what God has done in their own personal life. And I would also add to that a little bit, Dr. Chapman, and say a mentor is someone who shows the mentee what their life could be like through Jesus.

Yeah, yeah. Now, I'm sure that you would say, or at least I'm likely sure that you would say, that spending time researching Dr. Hendricks' life has been helpful to you. In a sense, he was a mentor to you as you talked to all these people whom he did mentor. Was there someone else in your life, maybe, who also was a mentor to you? Yeah, you know, when I think of someone who mentored me well and still does is this guy named Bernal Hunter.

He is in Orlando, Florida. I met him when I was in the fifth grade, Dr. Chapman, and I'm now 49. And so that's been a long time ago, as you do the math there. And I remember meeting Mr. Hunter, and I didn't know this at the time, Dr. Chapman, but I do remember thinking to myself, man, I want to be just like him. And I didn't know what that looked like, but I did know someone coming from a dysfunctional single-parent household, and this guy stepped into my life when I was 10 and looking at his life and going, man, he loves Jesus. I know what that was really all about at that time in my life, but I did know there was a difference there. And I also knew that he was a dad, he was a husband who loved his wife, loves his kids.

And I remember thinking to myself, I don't know what I'm going to be like later on in life, but I want to be just like him, man. And I'm so thankful that God used someone like Bernell Hunter to be a model to me and how he just mentored me well. You see, the Holy Spirit is informing us that the private life of Jesus Christ is the secret of his public life.

You show me a man, you show me a woman who is effective in their ministry for Jesus Christ in public, and I will show you a person who is far more effective behind the scenes in private. Well, that's Dr. Howard Hendricks, and we're talking about his life with Mina Mora today. Thanks for joining us today for Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. He's the author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . You can find out more about that online at buildingrelationships.us.

You can hear a past program, take an online quiz to figure out your love language or see our featured resource today. It's the book, The Influential Mentor, how the life and legacy of Howard Hendricks equipped and inspired a generation of leaders. Equipped and inspired a generation of leaders. It's written by our guest, Mina Mora.

Find out more at buildingrelationships.us. Mina, one of the things I appreciate about this book is how honest you were about the hard parts of Dr. Hendricks life. It's not well known that he had a tough time with depression early in childhood and then also sometimes later in his life.

Say a word about that. Yeah, you know, Howard's life was a life that should not have been if it were not for God. So it was one of those, but God moments, Dr. Chapman, where you look at his life and you go, he's born into poverty. His mom and dad didn't want him. He actually overhears his mom say, I wish I never would have had him. And I don't know about you, but I can't imagine what it must have felt like for him. His grandmother steps in and becomes a godly influence in his life. He literally would have to go in and try to get money from his grandfather, who was an alcoholic.

And in the clubs, he would literally go and get money as best as he could to take back home, in fact, Dr. Chapman, just so they could eat, in fact. And so when you look at Howard's life, you say to yourself, but God, you know, there's no other way that that Howard gets to where he is today had it not been for the grace of God. Yeah. You know, all of us observe people, at least all of us who are counselors observe people who grew up in a family like that, you know, very, very dysfunctional situation. You know, we do everything we can to help them, you know, move into a healthy adulthood. But you're right, apart from God and a relationship with God, many of those people, they just don't make the transition into a healthy adult. Yeah.

You're right. Powerful, powerful. Now, how did Howard deal with his depression, you know, later on as an adult from time to time he would have, you know, times of depression? How did he deal with that?

Yeah. One of the hardest things about writing about someone, especially about someone's life, actually, is putting yourself in their shoes for the time and place that they lived in, Dr. Chapman. So if you can imagine this, Howard, you know, I mean, he comes through this rough childhood.

He steps into being a seminary professor. And the president at DTS at that time told him, you need to go get counseling because he loved outreach and evangelism so much, Dr. Chapman. Well, at the same time, he's suffering through depression. Now, thank God today that we have so many great tools and counsel for people to kind of walk through life with. But back then, in that day and in that era and in that time, telling someone to go to counseling would have been a huge negative, in fact. And in some places, in some parts of the country, if a pastor would have gone to counseling, they would have been fired, in fact.

And so Howard deals with depression for the most part alone, in fact. I mean, his wife, who's just incredible, was there for him. But he navigates through it, though, as best as he could for that time and for that age. And so when people may read the book, they may go, why did he not just go to counseling? It wasn't widely acceptable as it is now. And so, I mean, he really suffered through it alone.

I'm so thankful that we don't have to do that in this day and in this age period. Yeah, and I think, you know, there are people who think, well, why would a Christian be depressed? Yeah. They fail to reckon with the reality of the human brain and the human emotions and all those things that affect all of us, and especially when we've come through a childhood like he came through. Yeah, but I do appreciate the fact that you were open and honest about that. Now, you mentioned earlier, Dr. Gene Getz, who is also a professor at Dallas, that he had a big influence on your decision to write the book. How did his ideas and suggestions guide you through this process? Dr. Getz had a huge influence, Dr. Chapman. If anybody knows Dr. Getz, they'll know what I'm talking about here.

He is just an incredible person, first of all. Well, I was on my way to the pool with my daughter. He's on the phone.

My daughter Zion is going, we've got to get to the pool, Daddy. And so I've heard the background, and then Dr. Gene Getz on the phone. And so he and I were talking, and the whole idea and the whole struggle with Howard's depression is what came up, in fact. And he said to me, he goes, you know, Mina, you should write a book about him.

And I remember thinking, I'm just trying to get my daughter to the pool right now, and that's a big feat in and of itself. And so it was one of those things where when he said it, I thought, hmm, it did resonate a little bit. But I remember going to the Lord in prayer about it, talking to Mrs. Hendricks about it, and thinking, someone surely has written a book about this guy's life. And what I came to find out was no one had. And at the same time, what I came to find out was, man, he had mentored and just influenced so many great people that I didn't want to just talk about his life. I really wanted to talk about, man, how we can do that well.

And I think it's one of the things that's missing in the body of Christ is that, man, we're not mentoring other people well. And when that does happen, man, something takes off. And Dr. Getz, you know, to his credit, he didn't know this at the time. I got to tell this small story here, guys, was I am good friends with one of his cousins who I did not know was one of his cousins. And so it's one of those things where I remember going to his cousin and going, hey, I'm thinking about writing a book. She had no clue who was telling me to do this until later down the road. And April goes, he's my cousin.

And I go, I never knew that. So literally, this may be the first book where you have two cousins who are endorsing the book, by the way. Did he suggest to certain individuals that maybe you might interview as well or not? He did. Like, he was a coach of mine from afar. Another guy, though. You and I both know Dr. Chapman, who was also just a coach to me also, was Jim Jinks, in fact.

Oh, yeah. You know Jim. And so I remember sitting down for him for lunch and he was just like, Mina, here is the list. Anybody who knows Jim well knows he just serves people so well, you know, Dr. Chapman. And he was so kind to me through this process as being a first time author and going, have you thought about this person, this person, this person? And before I knew it, it became we have too many people, Dr. Chapman.

And so it started off like two or three and ended up with over 100. It was all said and done. Yeah. Wow.

Wow. You mentioned earlier his wife, Jean. Let's talk a little bit about her.

What role did she play in encouraging him to carry out his dreams as a professor? As you spent, I know, a lot of time with her, what were your impressions of that and her? Oh, man, she's just an incredible person. And just overall, I mean, when I think of her, Ms. Hendricks, as only warm thoughts, Dr. Chapman. But I would tell all husbands, though, be careful how you treat your wives, because somebody may come back years down the road and write about you and your wife will be the only one to tell the story.

So be careful, husbands. But she loved, loved Howard. And God could not have placed a better person to be with him. I mean, she is the one, in my opinion, who was a backbone to his ministry.

Had there been no Mrs. Hendricks, I don't know if we would have seen the best of Dr. Howard Hendricks, to be fair. I think a lot of us would say that about our wives, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I would.

Wholeheartedly. Yeah, right. But, you know, there is a story you tell about Dr. Hendricks and his rocky start at Dallas Seminary. And we know that he taught all those years, years and years. A lot of the students actually rated his classes higher than other other classes they took at Dallas Seminary.

So he was asked to speak at the professor's annual retreat. And that didn't go really well. Say a word about that.

Yeah, I don't know who needs to hear this today, but I hope someone leans in on this one. The bottom line is this, is that Howard's start at DTS did not start off well at all. In fact, had he chosen to leave, he would have been justified to actually do so.

But Howard does something which I think that we miss out on in today's culture. He sticks with it, Dr. Chapman. I mean, he literally decides what God has called him to be and to do. And so because God called him, he was going to stay.

He could have done other things and he would have been great at those other things, to be fair with you. But Howard decides, I'm going to stay here at this seminary, do what God calls me to actually do. And so he gets to one of these first early retreats with these professors and they didn't like him. In fact, you know, that would probably be an understatement, too, because they really saw what he was teaching as not being up to par with what they were teaching, in fact, and so on, so on. So when Dr. Hendrick steps into this role here, Christian education was just unheard of. We all know it today, but along with him and Dr. Goetz and a few others, they were the founding members of Christian education in general.

And so he's a trailblazer. He steps in and they are not impressed. In fact, he comes back from the retreat going, what am I doing with my life, in fact? And so I would tell anyone, you may start off rocky wherever God's calling you to be and actually do, but if God's calling you, stick with it. Because here we look at DTS today and it's hard for us to even think of the seminary without Dr. Hendrick's name attached to it, in fact. But it didn't start off well, though, at all. It started off pretty, pretty badly, in fact. Well, I hope if there are young pastors or professors out there who are listening today who may be having a rough time, that's a good word.

It's a good word. If God's called you, stick in there because God has a purpose for you. Well, wasn't Jean a part of that too, Mina, that it was her encouragement to him to hang in there that gave him that extra oomph to go ahead and hang in, right? It was, and what Jean did so well, Chris, was she would, you know, I mean, here's Howard. He's coming home as a young professor, not knowing if he's even in the right role.

At the same time, he's a trailblazer, Chris. And so she was the one who would say, hey, I'm praying with you about this. Stick with it.

We can do it. And so she was just his encouragement. And I would say, Chris, to every spouse out there who's with their husband or wife who's going through just a hard calling right now, that your encouragement will get them through also, Chris. And so her encouragement guides him through a lot, Chris. It is, I mean, it would be a complete understatement to say that she was not an encourager. She was a huge encourager to him. And better yet, Chris, she was a prayer warrior for him, too.

Yeah. Another area that will encourage parents is his struggle with his role as a husband and father. Talk a little bit about what you discovered in that area of his life. Oh, man, this one would have been hard for anyone who came out of Dr. Hendricks background.

I can speak for personal experience here as well. I came from a dysfunctional home. And I can remember thinking when my wife and I discovered we're going to have this this great gift and how am I going to parent when I've never seen it before? And Howard struggled with the same thing. And so he had never seen a mom and dad who was in the home, who was there, who was loving God. And so he walks into this role really unknown.

And so for folks who come from great families, our family in general, where the mom and dad were plugged in, it's difficult when you're trying to navigate little ones who God's given you to go, OK, how do I do this well when you haven't seen it? And so as as weird as this may sound, Howard would say, Mrs. Hendricks would say that he struggled in this role. The great thing about this is whatever Howard struggled in, he would try his best to find out how to do it well.

And so he struggled in this role. But he also leaned in on on a lot of parenting books. He leaned in wanting to know what does a family look like?

And so I think part of that was because he never seen it, but he also wanted to do it well, too. And here's where God's grace again, all three of his kids are serving God today in their church. And his son actually leads the Hendricks Institute there on the Dallas Theological Campus.

And so although it was a struggle, all three of his kids love Jesus today. This is Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. If you go to our website, buildingrelationships.us, you'll find more ways to strengthen relationships. You can take a free assessment to discover your love language and see our featured resource, the book by Mina Mora, the influential mentor, how the life and legacy of Howard Hendricks equipped and inspired a generation of leaders.

Just go to buildingrelationships.us. Mina, before we took the break, we were talking about Dr. Hendricks and his parenting of his children when he came out of a very dysfunctional family, really didn't have a model of a dad in the family. And it reminded me, first of all, of a book that I just re-released here recently called Five Traits of a Healthy Family. And what motivated me to write that was this very thing.

There are so many people in our culture today who grew up in a dysfunctional family and they don't have any idea about what a healthy family looks like. As you said, he dug into books that were available at that time for him. And so if we did grow up in that kind of family and our listeners are hearing us talk, I hope they'll realize there's help out there.

You can learn even though you didn't have a model. It's great that he did and that his children have turned out to be real followers of Jesus. Yes, and Dr. Chapman, I would say this too real quick. I'm so thankful for your books and "The 5 Love Languages" , obviously. I'm sure you hear this a lot.

It definitely helped my own personal marriage and my relationship with my daughter. I would also say, though, that it is prideful to not lean in on good books like yours and others out there. When God's given us these tools, lean in on them. Just because you struggled with it or you didn't have it and I didn't have it, I definitely knew, just like Dr. Hendricks knew, that, you know what, I'm going to have to go learn it. Just because I didn't have it is not an option. And so God's placed so many great tools.

Just lean in on it. Yeah, and there's a lot, as you said, available today. I've often encouraged married couples to share a book on marriage every year the rest of your life. And what I mean by share is that each of you read the same chapter and at the end of the week you say, what could we learn from that chapter?

In another chapter, what can we learn from that chapter? And I say, if you do that the rest of your life, you're going to have a growing marriage from here to the end. And the same thing is true of parenting.

Read a book on parenting. And it's a way of growing in that area. Well, you say that Dr. Hendricks actually tried to quit teaching at the seminary at one point.

Yes. He was just an incredible person when it came to what God had gifted him to be and to do. And so Howard, I probably shouldn't say this, but I'm going to say this anyway. Howard was one of those kind of people, like myself, ADHD, where he had multiple things that he loved doing.

So Howard loves sports. And so he ends up chaplain of the worst team in America, the Dallas Cowboys. And so that was a big name.

You got some enemies now. And then he almost got through this book. He was a Dallas Cowboys chaplain. And so he loves sports. But he also loved teaching, obviously.

We also loved getting to know and just find out different and unique things. And so there were a couple of times when he would look up and go, I think I want to quit. But according to his wife, he would always lean back into what did God call for him to actually do. And there is one interaction between him and a lesser known student name, Andy Stanley, to where Andy comes up to him and goes, you know, prof. That's what they called him there. Why are you not pastoring your own church?

And prof looks at him and says, you know, Andy, I could do that. But God has called for me to be here so that I can pour into students for them to go and do that. And so I think he decided to not quit because he always kept coming back to the calling, always. Well, he certainly influenced a lot of pastors. And many churches, you know, in today's culture use a multi-site campus model.

You know, they have a main campus, but they have other campuses scattered out. How did he view that particular development? Well, you know, what's interesting was Andy Stanley, again, was telling me this story. This is before multi-site stuff had really taken off. I mean, now we see a lot of churches doing it and we go, well, everyone's doing it now.

Well, that wasn't the case about 20 years ago, in fact. And so when Andy was wrestling through Norpoint's model and what to do, he went back to the teachings of Dr. Hendricks, and that's where he developed the multi-site strategy. It was one of the things that he picked up on and that Howard really taught him, according to Andy, in that, man, if we're going to disciple well, that's what we have to do as pastors, is that it's not one of those kind of things that we think about doing.

We have to disciple well. And so I think that Howard will be pleased with it in the sense of it's discipling people well. Yeah.

Well, it's certainly been successful in many areas of our country today, that's for sure. You say that Howard valued people from all walks of life. What do you mean by that?

Oh, man. You know, when I look at his life, it is a testimony to me to go, you know, when God calls you to love people, do that. And so there are multiple stories and where he did this well. Jenny Allen, when I was interviewing her, you know, she was this young student.

She's an author now, best-selling author, in fact. She was this young student and one of his last, if I'm not mistaken. And just hearing her talk about how he influenced her life was just remarkable to me in that he starts his seminary, you know, calling off doing that and he ends that, too.

And I'll give you just a small little example here. He loved discipling students. And so he would do this every week and it would start before 6 a.m. So he was early with it, Dr. Chapman. And so he even still did that after he retired. And I can remember thinking, wow, like most people retire and they kind of go off. You don't see them again.

He decides that he still wants to mentor well and disciple well even when he's not been given a check to actually do so. And so that would be just one way. There are several others as well, but that's one way, though. Yeah, yeah.

How did he do the racial tension that was beginning to brew in our country during those years? Yeah, you know, this one was interesting to me, Dr. Chapman. And then, Chris, you know, it was one of those things where I didn't go looking for it, to be honest with you. So it wasn't one of those things where it was on my radar.

I want to be very clear about that. But as it is when you're researching someone's life, everything rises to the top that you don't go looking for it, to be honest with you. It's amazing how that happens when you're writing about someone. Well, this story I'll never forget. And I remember when I was praying about this and thinking through it. There were a couple of guys who I spoke to about it, and Tony Evans was one of those guys. And I'll never forget asking Dr. Evans and going, hey, I'm thinking about doing this.

I was a little unsure, and I've never shared this, like, out loud with anyone before, but I was very unsure if I could do the project just because I didn't go to DTS. And for some reason or another, I thought to myself, because I didn't go there, there'd be no way I could pull this off. At the same time, you know, I just wrestled with a lot of different things on it. And Dr. Evans immediately said, Bynum, you need to do it.

Like, he lit up like a Christmas tree, in fact. And that got me wondering a whole host of stuff. So to answer your question, there was this student back in the day in a period of time where America really struggled with race. And at that point in time, you know, segregation was just widely known.

And so every institution, for the most part, practiced it. And so when it came to DTS's role, when it came to that, Howard was one of the first professors to rise up and say, we've got to let this student in. In fact, he was so frustrated by it, he went home and told Mrs. Hendricks, you know, I'm thinking about quitting if they don't do this.

Like, he was so frustrated, so agitated about it, that he said, we've got to do this. And that one student happened to be Dr. Tony Evans. And Dr. Evans, you know, credits Howard in a lot of ways for where he's at in ministry today.

And so you never know what may come up because you do make these bold stands. But for Howard, segregation was something that he saw as ungodly. This is Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. He's the author of The New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" .

Our guest today is author and journalist, Mina Mora. Our featured resource is his book, The Influential Mentor, How the Life and Legacy of Howard Hendricks Equipped and Inspired a Generation of Leaders. Find out more at the website buildingrelationships.us.

Again, buildingrelationships.us. Mina, before the break, we were talking about Dr. Tony Evans. And I think some readers of this book who are younger than I am, when they read that Tony Evans had a hard time getting into Dallas Seminary simply because he was black, they're going to be thinking, oh, man, really? Oh, yeah.

Because they weren't there when our country was totally segregated, you know. And that was a huge step that Dr. Hendricks took to stand up for that and push for that. Were there other illustrations from his life where he really reached out to people in specific? I mean, you don't have to have others, but is there another one that just jumps to your mind?

Man, there are a couple that just do. And it's one of those things where Chip Ingram was another one, in fact. Man, I mean, here's young Chip. He walks into the seminary. I mean, he doesn't come from a Christian background and probably should not have honestly been there, to be fair with you. But Chip would say that he helped save his marriage, in fact, in the sense of that he didn't come from a background that was a Christian background. And of all the folks who I spoke to about this book, his story was just amazing to me, in fact, in that no matter who you were, whether you came from a background of being a Christ follower or whether you just got to know Jesus, Howard still had room for you.

You know, I think that's one of the things that definitely marked his life. And those of us who are in places of leadership as pastors and others need to be keenly aware of that today. You know, they're people that we interface with and they don't appear to have a whole lot of potential necessarily.

But if they have a sense that they want to walk with God, then we need to be there, plugging into them and helping them, you know, seek to find what God's plans for them are. Very much so. And I think in today's age more than ever, Dr. Chapman, to be honest with you. Say just a word about one other person, and that is Mark Miller, who is the vice president of leadership at Chick-fil-A. How did Howard influence his life?

Yeah, you know, what I enjoyed about this book was telling different stories about people, just about how many people's lives that he just impacted. Well, Mark was one of those who was not a minister, was outside of the calling of ministry altogether. And so Mark loves Jesus.

In fact, I get to talk to him just often. But here is Mark wanting to be a better leader. And so here he is, you know, at Chick-fil-A headquarters and he decides I want to lean into Dr. Hendrick's life. In fact, and it was one of those things where Mark would fly to Dallas often just to lean into him and vice versa. And so what Howard would also do was when Mark would come into town, he would have Mark fill in for him.

Now, like some professors would do, they would go, I'm going to take the morning off when someone's filling in for me. Not Howard. Even if Howard was not speaking, he would come and sit right in front of that speaker. And this story has been told of countless ways. And he would take notes himself. And so Howard would always take notes.

So he was someone he loved, loved knowledge. Mark tells incredible stories of him going to his favorite restaurant, having time to talk. And it was one of those things where, as I leaned in on Mark during our time together, I said, so let me ask you a question. The model that you put forward to what I think is the best restaurant in the country, did some of that come from Howard? And Mark said yes to me on that one. And that's some of the leadership principles that he has poured into his folks at Chick-fil-A came from Dr. Hendrick's.

Yeah, very interesting. We've been talking about mentoring and the way that Howard Hendrick's mentored other people. What is the recipe for mentoring?

That is, how do you find a capable mentor or how do you become a mentor? Yeah, good question. In a very star-studded culture that we live in, we all want to go for the star or the influential leader. And if God allows you to do that, great. But there are people all around you who are living the life that God's called them to be and actually do. Start there and start with your neighbor, start with your pastor, who nobody may never know, in fact. Those are the best people to lean into. And I would also say, look for a mentor and decide and pray, number one, if this could be the person, but number two, lean in on, is this person living a life of godliness and a life that I want to be and actually do for my future? If you can do that, then you have found a good mentor. And I guess mentors, you could have mentors in different areas of your life, right? You're talking mainly here about spiritual mentoring. You can, Dr. Chapman. You really can, in many different walks, in fact.

And I would say this, too, real quick. You don't have to know the person who's mentoring you. You can choose someone from afar. I would say you are just one of mine, Dr. Chapman, just in the sense of how God has used you to impact so many people's lives. I mean, I look to you as one. We don't know each other, that we're talking to each other every day, but you're one of mine, in fact. Yeah, that's a good point, that we can mentor in ways other than face-to-face conversations.

And books and radio and other mediums would be an example of that. Well, as we come toward the end of our program, let me ask you this question. If Dr. Hendricks were with us today and he could hear this conversation that we've just had, what do you think he would say? He would call me up and go, Minah, you have got to write about somebody else.

He would probably go, I don't like this book. He tried his best to shy away from being in the public light. I mean, he was the kind of leader where he loved serving from afar and behind the scenes.

And so when I look at his life, I'm really sad about this because this is coming to the end of my own personal time with him. He just modeled humility, and we need so much of that today in our culture. And so I learned from him how to lead people well from behind the scenes without being noticed. Yeah, we could use more of those kind of leaders today, no question about it.

Yeah, wow. You know, as you're talking about this, Minah, it's like you answer this question that's been rolling around my soul, and that is, how did Dr. Hendricks deal with his lack of, quote, unquote, popularity? I mean, he was in his lane there at the seminary, but his name outside wasn't as readily known as some other famous, quote, unquote, people. And it sounds like what you just said is why he was so OK with that, not just OK with that. He embraced that. He just wanted to pour into other people's lives, right? Yeah, and I think he remembered the calling. I can't obviously speak for him, obviously, Chris, but from everything that I've researched and studied and just spoken to with people, the calling just seemed to rise over and over and over again. And so he just remembered who called him, and he focused on that. And I think he loved hearing the stories of people coming back to him, but the calling is what was number one to him, that he knew he was called by God. Well, this book is certainly worth reading by people who knew him or knew of him or people who didn't know him at all. And in so reading this book, he will still be having an influence on people's lives. So let me encourage our listeners today to get this book and read this book.

It'll enrich your life and God can use it, I think, to help you wherever you are to continue to invest your life for him. So, again, thank you, Mina, for being with us today. Thank you, guys.

I've so enjoyed this today. What an encouraging conversation today with Mina Mora. If you want to find out more about his book, it's a featured resource at buildingrelationships.us. It's titled The Influential Mentor, How the Life and Legacy of Howard Hendricks Equipped and Inspired a Generation of Leaders.

Go to buildingrelationships.us. And coming up next week, what's the increased screen time doing to your children and grandchildren? Don't miss some practical help with Arlene Pelicane in one week. Before we go, let me thank our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Backing. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.