Screen Kids - Arlene Pellicane

How do you set healthy technology boundaries for your children or grandchildren? Answers today on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. We need to recognize more screen time that's dwarfing a child's ability to listen, to show empathy, to have intelligent conversations. The quality of your life is determined by the quality of your relationships. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Today with students learning virtually and kids desperate to connect with friends, kids are spending more time than ever on screens.

But what are the effects of all that screen time? That's an important question that we'll look at today with author and speaker Arlene Pelicane. She and Dr. Chapman have teamed up for not one but two resources that we're going to talk about today.

You can find out more about them at our website, FiveLoveLanguages.com. Dr. Chapman, this is one of the unseen effects of the pandemic that we've gone through, right? Well, I think it is, Chris. You know, I've talked with a lot of parents who are not sending their children off to school now because schools aren't open where they are. And so the children are at home and they're trying to help the children make the most on the screen, you know, from school, what they're getting online. So the kids are spending a lot more time on the screen than they were before. And the parents are already concerned perhaps about how much time they're spending on the screen. So, yeah, I think this is something that a lot of parents are struggling with. And even if there were no pandemic, it's an area where parents, I think, are concerned. They want to make the most of the child's use of technology, but they don't want it to consume the child's life.

I mean, you know, childhood is a time for learning and growing and playing and sleeping and reading and all sorts of things. So, yeah, I'm excited about talking to Arlene today about these books that we worked on together because I think they offer a lot of practical help for parents. She is a great friend of this program, Arlene Pelicane, speaker, the author of a number of books. We've talked about 31 Days to a Happy Husband, Calm, Cool and Connected, Parents Rising and others. Today, we're going to feature two titles that she and Dr. Chapman worked on, Screen Kids, Five Skills Every Child Needs in a Tech Driven World and Grandparenting Screen Kids, How to Help, What to Say and Where to Begin. You can find out about both of those titles at the website, FiveLoveLanguages.com.

Again, go to FiveLoveLanguages.com. Well, Arlene, welcome back to Building Relationships. It's great to be with you.

Thanks so much for having me. Talk about the use of technology during the pandemic. As Chris and I were discussing earlier, the good, the bad, everything in between. How is that impacting kids today?

Yeah, I think at the beginning of the pandemic, it might have been like, you know, this is good. We can still Skype grandma. We can still email our teachers. We can watch lessons. You know, thank God for technology.

This is good. And maybe we had stricter rules, but we kind of eased up because we figure, OK, that's the way it is. But you know what?

That was way back in March. Here we are months later. And so I think the good was, you know, the continuation, being able to continue with school. There are positive things you can do. You can stay in touch with your friends and your family members. But I think there has been a lot of bad that has come with it, that if you had a problem before the pandemic with your kids on screen too much, you can only imagine, you know, after the pandemic is over, what's that going to be like? And I think a good way to frame that is, let's say the screens before were used for entertainment for your kids. So it was kind of, you know, on occasion they could earn it when their school was done and their chores were done, etc.

And it was just the slice of their day. But now, because school is already that huge slice online. So now this online world hasn't just become entertainment, but it's become a way of life. And isn't it true that as adults, sometimes we sit in front of the computer for eight hours a day, but do we really want that for a five-year-old, a seven-year-old, a nine-year-old, right?

An 11-year-old? That's not a good way of life. So my fear is that this will become too normal and that kids will get used to, oh, I guess this is what childhood is.

It's looking at a screen. It's sometimes doing school, playing games, you know, emailing or texting my friends or, you know, and that's not real. So I feel like that there's that loss of reality. And then if they're having fun and being entertained on their screens, then when they go out and they have to do chores and they have to read a book and they have to go out and meet people again, sometimes I think for some kids that's going to be a hard re-entry because they're so used to being sedentary. They're used to being isolated. You know, I had my friend who was saying she's got an elementary school student and a high school student, and church has just started going back, you know, we've just started going back to church. And she said, it's so hard to get the kids to put on shoes and get dressed and go out the door because for months, they've just had to be in flip flops and comfy clothes and at home. So I think this is all going to have an impact on kids. And perhaps if your kids are younger, you need to take even more care to show them, hey, this is not normal to avoid people, you know, because you're in a pandemic. So it's like, oh, don't talk to people.

That's not normal or healthy. And so especially for our younger kids, they're going to really need to be educated that, you know, this is just for a short time. And then soon you are going to be hugging people and running up to people that that's going to need to be overcome.

Yeah, yeah. How have you navigated this season with your own children? Because I know you have children still at home. Yes, they've at home quite a lot. I have a sixth grader, a ninth grader, an 11th grader.

And I will say I dodged the bullet because my kids are all older. They can log on to the computer themselves. They're conscientious and they stay there. So, I mean, if this would have happened earlier, which I know happened for many of our listeners, and instead they were five, seven and nine, you know, I don't think we could have this conversation because I'd be needing to be with them. So for us, it has been a good, fine, you know, not ideal, of course, they'd rather be back in school. But something that I've noticed, you know, it's like they're sitting in front of a computer still at a desk, you know, in three different spaces in the house from 9 a.m. till about 3 p.m. And then after that, they're sitting on those same chairs for homework. And it's like, oh, my goodness, these poor people, they haven't even moved.

I always tell them, like, please stretch, like, get up. And so some things that have helped is when it's lunchtime, you know, no screens, obviously, and everybody up and out and sit around the table and laugh together and do something. And we have a dog. So it's like, go walk the dog and then do your homework.

And so it takes that. And I think for the mental health of our kids, we've scheduled things on the weekends that they can look forward to. So for my one daughter, she's volunteering at a horse camp. So this is perfect because it puts her in nature. She loves horses.

She volunteers. So that's been a great outlet for one child. It's meeting her friends at the park that just one or two of them and they'll meet and they'll go get ice cream at the grocery store and eat it at the park. And, you know, that's a great outlet for them. And then my son, we've been playing Ultimate Frisbee every Sunday in the park.

And so his friends will come out for Ultimate Frisbee. So it's been really good to have something that is non-school, non-screen to look forward to that's kept us healthy. Yeah.

Getting outside the home, at least some and interfacing with some people. Yeah, that's great. You know, I was talking to a kindergarten teacher and she was talking about how difficult this has been for her as a teacher. And I can hardly imagine teaching kindergarten students online. Right. That's awful, right?

It does. So what are the struggles and challenges that you're seeing with folks that you've interfaced with? Yeah, and I'd love to just touch on that teacher thing because it's true. Can you imagine if it's hard enough with people in real life in a classroom getting them to pay attention and you're right there to kind of, you know, you could touch a shoulder and say, hey, pay attention. Can you imagine all you're doing is looking at 20 little squares of Zoom squares and you're wondering, you know, oh, that person disappeared.

Let's go get him. And then by the time you get him, then so-and-so in row three, she's disappeared. I mean, it really would be so difficult. So I think we need to encourage our teachers. We need to send notes and gift cards and things to our teachers that that is difficult.

And I think what is hard is how is it, you know, my daughter, she's in ninth grade, so this was not the ideal way in my mind for her to start high school, you know, to do this online, new school, et cetera. And we just chatted about the teacher she likes, et cetera. And we said, I said, you know, if you saw that teacher in the grocery store, what would you do? And she said, oh, nothing. I wouldn't do anything. I said, you wouldn't say, hey, I'm in your Spanish class. I'm Noelle. She said, no. I said, why wouldn't you do that? Well, mom, they don't know me.

They don't know who I am. And I thought, oh, that's so sad. This is so many months. You know, we started, I guess, in August.

So this is a few months into it. And the fact is these people, teachers, you know, they might have 25, 30 kids in their classrooms, seven periods, and they're all little Zoom squares. So how can they know these kids? It's very difficult. So I think that's a huge challenge of part of school is knowing others and being known. And that's a big, big deficit. And I do think that has an impact on learning.

Yeah. You know, some parents, of course, have their children in private schools that are operating, at least in some states. And they now have a much deeper appreciation for teachers.

Because they realize, you know, what others are going through. Marlene, talk about what increased screen time does to the emotional and educational development of a child. Gary, I think about when a kid is on a device, oftentimes they're saying, leave me alone. I'm on my phone. I'm playing a game. Talking to, you know, I'm on social media.

I'm on my tablet. So they may not physically say the words, leave me alone, but their attitude, their posture, everything is leave me alone. And after a while, if that is the posture in the home of kids being on devices and they're kind of like in this bubble of, hey, just leave me alone. And the parent, of course, is also busy.

And the parents always also think, well, at least my kid is safe. So there's this lack of connection. And that, I think, is what is so sad because the technology has the promise of connection. Hey, get this phone and you can be in contact with your friends. But in reality, once a child in particular gets a phone or a tween teenager, all of a sudden they get all their support, so to speak, from that phone.

And that does not give the emotional support that a parent could. You think of all these kids and they're texting. They might even be in the same room.

They might be having lunch together. And they're texting other people instead of talking to one another. And so this is not doing the emotional work of the old conversation. And so I think we need to recognize more screen time.

That's dwarfing a child's ability to listen, to show empathy, to have intelligent conversations, to read body language, to have eye contact. That eye contact, that was said, it's the window to the soul. But if we're all distracted and looking at our devices, then the health that just comes from looking at someone in the eye and knowing they're looking back at you and having that conversation, that's all of a sudden missing. We quoted Harvey McKay and he said that the quality of your life is determined by the quality of your relationships.

So think of a child or an adult who's on screens all the time. What's the quality of that marriage like? What's the quality of that parent-child relationship? What's the quality of two friends like when you're holding a device all the time? So this is a huge repercussion of screens becoming so mobile, so cheap, so popular that it has really redefined friendship. Friendship would be, hey, we are loyal to one another. We have fun together. We talk together. We do things together. But now social media friendship is how many followers do I have and did you like my photo?

And if you didn't like my photo, I'm going to unfriend you because you must not be my friend anymore. I mean, the basis is completely hollow and that's why we see so many kids with emotional problems. And then in terms of educational development, you know, it's always been reading that if you can read, you're going to do well in school. If you can slog your way through a passage and you can understand it and you can answer questions, you're going to do OK. That's a predictor of school success. Well, kids, they're not reading. They're watching TV and they're watching videos and they're scrolling and they're tapping and they're playing games and there's not a whole lot of words happening on the page. So that's also hard for kids if they're on screens.

You know, yes, you could be reading a book on a Kindle, but most kids are not using the screens in that way. Yeah. Yeah.

And you mentioned the parents themselves. And I've seen this just recently. You've probably seen it in restaurants where the husband and wife are sitting there for dinner and they both have their phones out. Right.

And they're looking at their phones rather than talking to each other. Yes. We become comfortable in that way. And then it becomes the new normal, which is not normal.

Yeah. So how can a parent know if their child is involved with too much screen time? What are some of the signs? Yeah, some of the signs will be so blaring that you almost couldn't, you know, you couldn't miss them.

But sometimes you have to play detective, but some things you're going to see your child have changes in their behavior. And you're going to be like, well, listen, where did that come from? This attitude? Where did that come from? Maybe they're only in a good mood when they're with a device. So when they're gaming, they're in a good mood.

But when you take that away, you know, here comes Attila the Hun. You see them wanting to increase more. So, Mom, I want that more.

Dad, I want that more. They freak out when they're forced to unplug. Right. They choose gaming over, let's say, the family. Hey, we're going to go do this. We're going to go out to see, to go get ice cream or whatever. And the child's like, oh, you know, it's OK.

I'd rather just stay home because, you know, they'd rather stay home with their device. So things like that, you can say like, OK, wait a minute, maybe there's too much screen time. It's having too much of a persuasive pull in my child's life.

You know, you see your child. They can't focus. They're defiant, disorganized. They're not empathetic. They have poor social skills around other kids.

These are all warning signs. And believe it or not, it's kind of simpler than we think. If you will just reroute their screen time or shut it off completely, you will find, oh my goodness, look at my child is suddenly has other interests and is agreeable and is not sullen anymore. So we encourage parents to try that detox.

Yeah. So one of the things I hear you saying is we don't let the children control how and how much they use screens. As parents, we are the ones who control that. That's right, because your job as a parent is not to be amusing to your child or to please your child or be your best friend, but to say, hey, I'm your parent and I know this is unhealthy for you and I'm willing to be unpopular to take away this device or delay this device or not allow this game.

And you're the only one. But as a parent, you know, you've got to be able to handle that because you have the future of your child and their strong relationships in mind. What advice would you give to single parents who may feel that they don't have time to monitor their child's screen time? Yeah, my heart goes out to single parents because can you imagine you're working in a pandemic, you have all these limitations and you have your kids.

It's very, very difficult. So I would say, you know, start with observation. Observe what is the normal day for your children. When are they on screens? You know, first thing in the morning. Is it how late into the night and then what are they doing on their screens?

What are your concerns? So, you know, take that first day and just observe what's going on and then think of one action step. Maybe it's meal times that you realize we've got the TV on in the background or one of the children is using, grabbing the device a lot. OK, we're going to do meal time screen free. Maybe for another person, it's collecting the phones at night, even for your teenagers. That, hey, I want you to get a good night's sleep and we're going to collect the phones at night. You know, maybe it's a certain day. You can simplify things because I know it's hard to micromanage everything, right? You think, OK, now what do I have to look at?

But maybe it's a screen free day that you say, hey, Sundays, that's going to be our time where there's no video games or that's going to be our day where we have no streaming services, except that we just watch one movie together as a family, things like that. So so kind of simplify it for yourself and see. But don't be hopeless. You know, you can still improve things. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, we're both parents are living together with their children. How do you get on the same page with enforcing, you know, online rules? Have you have you seen that and how do you respond to that? Yeah, there's so many husbands, right, who love gaming with their kids. And so the wife is standing in the background like, why are you playing this game? And the husband saying, this is how I bond with my children.

You know, so, of course, online, you know, how you deal with screens, just like anything else in life, money, where you're going to live, anything. It's compromise and it's talking about it. And I encourage the parents to think of, OK, wait a minute, we are not battling each other. We are both on the same team and our goal is the health of our child. So just, you know, establish that, remind each other of that first that you're not enemies.

You're just trying to figure out what's best for your child. And then I think listening and understanding the same things. So, for instance, this radio show, maybe you're listening to it and you're getting these ideas. But your spouse, you know, is against this. Well, have your spouse listen to this as well. So getting on the same page, getting the same information, reading screen kids together, talking about it. I think that really helps because sometimes one person is working with the body of information and the other person's working with the opposite.

So to try to get understanding together, to look for wisdom together, and then perhaps it is not the one shaming the other. You know, maybe the more restrictive parent is making the more loose parent feel ashamed of that. You know, nobody likes to feel like pressured of you have to do this, you're a bad parent, you know. But maybe it's instead saying, hey, I know you want to spend time with the kids.

Why don't we go and play soccer in the park? You know, just the alternatives versus you really should stop playing those video games, you know. So working through that and eventually, hopefully, you will get closer and closer to each other on your beliefs about screen time.

Yeah. You know, I think this is one book that I really would recommend moms and dads read together because at least you both be exposed to some ideas and some truth about these factors. And it may help discussions in kind of bringing you to a meeting place. What are some of the ways that parents can be an example to their children regarding screen time limitations? I like to ask the question, if your child grew up to use technology just like you, would you be happy with that? So you say, oh, you get a little mini me, you use your phone, your kid uses the phone, you know, the way you use it, interact with it. If your child mimicked you exactly, would you think home run, this is great. Or would you think like, oh, good Lord, my child's going to do that. So, you know, children are really a blessing because they do make us better people because on your own you can kind of be sloppy and do these things. But if you realize, oh, I'm creating another person who's going to do all these mistakes like me, then it makes you think I got to clean this up. So I think that's one way to think of it. Another thing is really looking at your child and asking, hey, buddy, do you think am I on my phone too much?

Am I on my computer too much? What does that look like to you? And then really allow them to answer honestly, not don't get emotional, don't get upset, just listen.

Okay, thanks for telling me. And then later you could like scream and cry and excuse yourself and make all the excuses of why you have to be this way, etc. But listen to your child. You know, there was a survey of 6000 kids from around the world and over half of them said my parents' worst habit is looking at the phone when I'm trying to talk to them.

And none of us want to be that way. So we just have to be willing to see, man, what do I look like to them? So one thing principle we talk about is pivoting that if you're on your phone or the computer and your child comes into the room, you pivot away from your phone, you pivot away from your computer and say, hey, how are you? Do you need anything? Okay, well, I've got to finish up this text and then we'll get to dinner, you know, but your body language and your eyes are saying you are more important than this device.

And if your child feels that way, then that helps put that device in the right place versus every time they approach you, you're on your phone and you're saying, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Come back in five minutes. You know, they come back in five minutes. What are you doing back so soon?

So you've got to watch how are you doing it? And, you know, little things like read a newspaper for adults instead of online news. Why? Because a newspaper has a beginning and an end.

Most likely, whatever you need to know is in there. You close it up and you walk away. But what's online news? Every 10 minutes, breaking news, breaking news, breaking news.

And all of a sudden you're looking at that all the time. So you could honestly change the way you get your news and it could have a very positive impact on your relationship with your kids. So let them see you do that. Let them see you charge your phone in another room and not sleep with it, you know, a foot away from your pillow.

Let them see you put down the phone and have a conversation with your spouse eye to eye instead of that you keep picking up your phone when you're talking to your spouse. You know, show them what does this look like? What you're talking about is really a countercultural thing. And I've said this, I believe it more now than ever. We were never meant to live drinking from a fire hydrant like we do with news and information. What you just said, you know, the breaking news, the story that I just read 10 minutes ago has now been updated and now there's new information. I've got to find that out.

Or, you know, the video that's online has been updated and here's another camera angle to that. I don't think, you know, it's hard enough just with everything going on in your own family and your own neighborhood community, your own church. It's hard enough just to live at that level of stress.

And then you include everything that's around the country, around the world, and we almost feel paralyzed by it. That's right. Yeah. So it is a tool in the sense of that's helpful, but not all the time.

You cannot be that informed all the time. You know that question you posed at the beginning there when you said, what if my kids turn out to use screens the way I use screens? A little reflection on that is sobering. The other thing you mentioned that I think many, many parents don't realize, if they're having a conversation with their child and their phone rings or they get a text, and they turn to that phone and away from the conversation with their child, they've just communicated that somebody out there is more important than me. And what you quoted on that research project that, what was it, 50% of the kids?

That's right. Who said that the main thing is that their parents spend too much. How do you say that? That their parents look at their screens while they're having a conversation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Boy, that alone is so insightful. Well, Arlene, in the book, you talk about a digital Sabbath. Explain that.

What do you mean by that? That is a digital break that the whole family takes. So maybe you say, Friday night, you know, everyone, we're not playing video games.

We're going to do board games. Or maybe it's all day Sunday that you say, hey, we're going to go screen free, no social media, no video games, maybe just texting only for appointments, and that's it. And we talk in the book Screen Kids about an author who did this, William Powers, author of Hamlet's Blackberry, and he did it with his wife and teenage son from Friday. He turned off the modem at night, and he wouldn't turn it back on until Monday morning. They did the whole weekend kind of as a test because they were seeing they were drifting away from each other. And for weeks, they hated it. They were just like, why are we doing this? But by the third month, fourth month, they realized we live for this weekend where we turn it all off, where we read, we relax.

It's almost like having a renewing vacation every weekend in your own home. And then they looked forward to it. And I love that story because we need that rest and rejuvenation. And I love that they didn't like it at first because sometimes we'll try it and then it doesn't work. And we say that didn't work. But you have to try it again and again and again. And by week eight, maybe you say, hey, that was really pleasant. We're getting the hang of this.

So don't give up on that. And it's a great test to see and you can make it as a challenge, like which one of our family members will break first, you know, and reach for their social media, whether it's a teenager or the husband, you know, so you can make it a contest. But I love the idea of the Sabbath because, A, it encourages rest. B, it gets you connect to your family members again. And then C, it's a great test. Like who's addicted?

Who's having a problem? Because whoever screams the loudest, they're the ones who you need to focus on next. And so it gives you a chance to explore doing other things together that you would not do if you didn't disengage. That's right. What is your advice to parents of older children, maybe teenagers, who resist limitations to screen time?

Okay, I live in the real world. So you're not going to tell your teenager, hey, we're going to take away your social media and they're not going to say, okay, you know, they're going to definitely resist. So one of the, we interviewed a nurse, nurse Melanie Hempe, and she talks about like a seven day reset. And so for instance, to say, hey, we're going to do the seven day reset. And that's kind of, I think, a great idea. And then it can expand into a one month reset.

And then from that, you kind of see this new normal. Well, usually for the older kids, right, the teenagers, they're like, I'm not into this reset thing at all. And I would say to that parent, don't give up. You are still the parent.

You most likely are paying the bill on that phone. So you have the right and they're under your roof. So don't feel like you're this unfair, awful person.

You're not. You love your child and you're trying to help them. And your child may not respond. They might not, you might not see that turnaround even within weeks.

But I encourage you still to hang in there. Because at the end of the day, your child will know my parent cared enough to try to help me. And whether they know that in a month or whether they know that in a year or maybe 10 years or maybe someday when they're a parent and they realize my parent was trying to help me.

But they will realize that. So you've got to hang in there and maybe you begin with an apology. And it's something like, you know, son, we gave you this phone and we wanted you to be able to connect with your friends, but we see that it's been really unhealthy for you.

So we're going to collect it and do an experiment for a month. And I know you might think I'm the meanest dad in the whole wide world, but I'm just doing this because I love you. So you have this kind of conversation and we're not promising it's going to go great, but at least it will go better than, hey, we listen to this thing and what you're doing is completely wrong and we're going to take it away. So we'll have that conversation of care. And then think of the younger kids. A lot of times you have an older child, but you've got younger children, too, who are watching. And perhaps in some ways it's been too late for that older child because they're so far along, but for your younger kids, it could be something very redemptive. So don't give up. Yeah. Yeah. So in the whole thing of trying to create non-screen segments of days or weeks, what are some of the creative family activities that we can do that don't include screens? You want your kids to have fun without screens so they realize, oh, this is much more fun. Like, I feel better.

I feel healthier. So, you know, you can sightsee in your own town. Let's say you haven't been able to travel because of COVID.

Well, you know what? Most likely in your own town, within two hours, there's something that you could see. So sometimes you can just play sightseer in your own town.

I live in San Diego and we have this freedom jet, like this boat that does wheelies on the water. I mean, it looks really fun, right? And so I got this $25 Groupon and I took my son there and we had a blast.

So it was like sightseeing in your own town. Now there's the things that you're familiar with, like having a game night or doing biking, pulling out those board games, you know, hiking, playing chess, all those things. I know, Dr. Chapman, you play air hockey and my parents play ping pong with their grandkids. I know that. And then our family's been playing Ultimate Frisbee on Sundays.

Lot of running, really good for us. You know, it could be music. Maybe your child is learning an instrument. Maybe you can have a family concert. You could have a cooking contest.

I know your granddaughter cooks. You know, you could have a cooking contest within your family. Have a cook-off, like a cookie cook-off or a main dish cook-off or whatever.

Mom will love that because she won't have to cook. You could do an art contest even within maybe some friends in the neighborhood and display it, you know, on the sidewalk, things like that. You could do, one time we did this goal setting for the year. So just asking each child, what's something new you want to learn this year?

Or what's something you want to become, like you want to be more patient or, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And we took magazines and then they would cut out pictures from the magazines and put them on just a, you know, a big poster board of their different goals for the year. And you can do this with really little kids. I remember one year my kid put out a toothbrush on the thing because they wanted to learn how to brush their teeth. So, you know, you can do this with really little kids. And this is fun because you're cutting, you're pasting, you're talking, you're dreaming.

And notice, you know, none of these things involve a lot of money and they don't involve screens. Yeah. You know, it's one of the things I like about the book.

It's so practical with those kind of ideas. And these are the things kids are going to remember about the relationships in the home. It's the kind of things you did together, you know, whether it's with the whole family or whether it's with one parent and one child. That's right. You're building memories when you do that.

Yeah. But let's talk a little bit about the book for grandparents. More grandparents are involved with their grandchildren and many of them honestly just feel intimidated by this whole technology thing. What would you say to grandparents?

How can grandparents get involved in screen time with their kids and also how can they do other things? I think one thing grandparents can do is they can leverage their grandchild like they're a tutor, you know. So it could be, hey, can you teach grandma how to text? Can you teach grandma how to insert a photo in the text?

Can you teach grandma how to? And to be honest with you, I think if grandparents want to get on social media so that they can interact with their grandkids, I think that can be something good because they could look at their pictures and such. And then when they see each other, they have more informed conversations.

Oh, I see that you love whatever, you know, you love soccer and you can talk about that. But, you know, but that's I also say that with caution because social media is a very persuasive and addictive platform. And the more we can get kids off of social media and just talking in real life, you know, the better. So obviously, as a grandparent, if you're able just to text your grandchild or talk to them on the phone, that would be ideal.

Like that video chatting, that would be ideal. But leverage your grandkids and ask them, well, show grandma and grandpa how to do that because kids kind of like showing what they can do. So that could be something that could bring you together. And as a grandparent, maybe you can ask other grandparents, you know, when you run into situations, you can ask, well, what do you do about that? Just pool that information and realize that you have more to offer as a grandparent than any video game, any app.

You are more educational. So talking with you, spending time with you is better than hours and hours of educational television. So just get that in your mind that you as a grandparent, you are more engaging than any app, even though you don't feel like it because your child, your grandchild, you know, is gravitating to the app and not gravitating to just talking to you. But one thing to understand as a grandparent is that this technology, it's not that you're inferior as a grandparent.

It's that this technology has really been super wired to be very addictive for your child. So for the grandchild, it's like carrying a bag of M&Ms in their pocket if they have a device with them when they're with you on a visit. They're going to keep reaching into that bag of M&Ms and it's like kind of a bottomless bag and they're going to keep eating. So you as a grandparent need to realize, oh, it's not me that they're pushing away.

It's just that they've got this bag of M&Ms in their pocket that they keep grabbing. So a huge part of the solution is get rid of the bag. So when they're with you as a grandparent and a grandchild having time together, limit those devices, get those devices out of there.

And that's going to help the visit much more. Yeah. What should a grandparent do if their idea of screen time is different from what their adult children, you know, the parents or the grandchildren that say they allow things you don't want to allow?

How do you work that out? Yeah. In the book in Grandparenting Screen Kids, this is the clash of the caregivers. You know, it's, hey, we're adults and we have different thoughts about this. And that's very common, whether it's the grandparent who's like, I want to buy my grandchild every technological gadget that ever was.

And the parent saying, wait a minute, have you not read this book, Screen Kids? You know, and also the opposite of the grandparent wanting to be very conservative and can't believe that the parent lets them watch this violent TV and awful video games. You know, and so I think the first thing is to realize that you are the grandparent and not the parent, so that the primary responsibility for raising that child does not fall on your shoulders, but it does fall on your kids. But maybe you are the main caregiver, like you're with the child more than the parent is because of work, etc. In that sense, you've still philosophically have to think, I am the grandparent, I'm not the parent. But you have this beautiful window of influence that when your grandchildren are with you, then it can be Nana's rules and Papa's rules.

And that's okay. You can have different rules in the home, your home, than with your children. You know, I remember when our kids were small, my mom and dad are close by. And so James, my husband, was very conservative, not wanting them to watch much TV. But they would go to the house and they like going to grandma and grandpa's house because they could watch DVDs there.

You know, Thomas the Train and all these different things. They loved it. But my husband was like, oh, that's kind of a lot of TV they're watching. So what we came to agree was if we're asking you to watch the kids as a favor, like, hey, we have to go out. Can you watch the kids? That's your time.

You do whatever you think you need to do. But if you're asking us, you know, hey, we want to have the kids over. We haven't seen them very much.

Could they join us? If you're asking us, then we are requesting a half an hour or less of screen time, you know, things like that. And it really they became very creative in things.

Sometimes you'd see styrofoam cups all over the house and they'd be hitting them with rubber bands, you know, so they would be very creative in what they came up with. So have those conversations with your adult kids. Arlene, how can grandparents help teach their grandchildren things like common courtesy, you know, and those kind of things? It's not going to happen with the kid on the screen, right?

That's right. And so, grandparents, what a beautiful way. You are the host of common courtesy.

So you could have little play classes. You know, if you have little children, how fun. This is grandma's courtesy class and you practice. This is how you meet an adult. You shake their hand post-Covid. You shake their hand. You give them eye contact.

When you are served food, you say thank you. You know, this is how you put a napkin on your lap. Like kids don't, my kids barely put their napkin on the lap and they're almost in high school.

You know, they're in high school. So, you know, you teach these things. You put your napkin on the lap.

This is the silverware. You wait till everybody's served. Then you eat. These are all things you can practice at grandma and grandpa's house. And then when you go out, let's say you're going out for ice cream as the kids get older. And even with young kids, teach the kids to order for themselves. So teach the kids, oh, speak up and you tell them what kind of ice cream that you have. My husband, you know, will tell, you know, my parents have leverage the kids more. Make them do more.

Don't do everything for them. So have your kids, you know, learn these common courtesies of thank you and asking and ordering and clarifying. Even calling, you know, if maybe the grandparent needs a phone call to be made to request service for something, you know, like the refrigerator has to get fixed. You can have, hey, your grandchild that's maybe upper elementary school, middle school, high school.

Hey, can you make that call for me? So now all of a sudden that grandchild has to learn how to have that kind of conversation. These are common courtesies that a lot of kids feel very perplexed about.

But the grandparent could be the wonderful bridge to teach them that. We're talking a lot about limiting screen time. And I think we've mentioned the idea of screen free places in the house. Talk a little bit about that.

Yeah. As you, whether you're a grandparent or a parent, you can have things like screen free zones. I think bedrooms. That's a perfect screen free zone for your kid's bedroom. So if anything, they could get a good night's sleep. You know, you could have screen free days or screen free meals, you know, so that there are habits in place. So it's not like you have to think about it. You want to make it as easy as possible for you to disconnect and to have different times in your day, zones in your house where technology is not present. One of the places that we really emphasized in our home was that mealtime.

Yeah. We would not have the TV on, the radio on. We wouldn't answer the phone. It's a time to talk. And our kids, now they're grown and they look back and say, those are some of the best memories we have sitting around the table and talking. We could bring up things that happen in our lives and discuss them with each other.

You know, you never get that on the screen. But let's talk a little bit about the benefit of technology. How can technology really benefit a child's development? Yeah. And I love to think about it as a digital vegetable or digital candy.

It just helps to categorize it. So a digital vegetable, for instance, let's say your child wants to learn how to play the guitar. Well, how amazing that you online can find a teacher very easily on YouTube for free to teach your child how to play the guitar.

That wouldn't have happened, you know, 25 years ago. So there are many things your kids can learn. My son learns 3D printing online, you know, whether it is filmmaking or becoming a plumber or fixing the oil in your car or learning how to braid hair or learning about horses.

That's what my 10 year old likes to do. You know, so things like that. There are things that you that open up the world and teach you real world skills. So those would be like those digital vegetables, whether it's a sermon from church, it's learning how to do math because you're having a hard time in school. So you're supplementing it with some videos that kind of are helping your child with that math.

Maybe you're learning a different language. All these things are wonderful ways to grow as a person. So that's a digital vegetable. It helps your child to grow. But unfortunately, most kids obviously are not growing there. They're not necessarily watching lectures and how to videos.

They're watching funny videos like shows. And so that's digital candy. So digital candy has its place.

But when you eat too much, just like in real life, it's not good. So you're looking for those digital vegetables and most kids will not gravitate to those by themselves, just like they don't do it in real life to real vegetables. You as a parent, as a grandparent, have to serve that up. Arlene, in the book, we do discuss relational skills that children need to learn, which they typically do not pick up on the screen.

And we don't have time to discuss those in the program today. But I do hope that parents realize that the place children are going to learn to relate to other people is going to be in the home. If they don't learn it there and they spend too much time on the screen, they're going to come to adulthood with a real handicap, right? That's right.

That's exactly right. They need that emotional experience of being loved, of being able to give love, to be an appreciative, grateful person. All those things, managing anger. They need to learn that in the home. And if you can teach your child that, they're going to come out with a great advantage. Arlene, as we come near the end of our time together, let's give some action steps that parents can begin to implement in this whole area of being responsible in terms of the use of screens.

This is the hopeful part, Gary, because it's not something hereditary. You're not trapped in this. You can make changes and it can be very healthy for your home. You can start with mealtime, as we've talked about, getting that to be a screen-free time.

You can collect devices from bedrooms, not allowing a phone overnight. That's going to help your teenager get sleep and it's going to save them from many harmful things that are coming to them at 3 a.m. in the morning. Because they're not doing algebra at 3 o'clock in the morning. You can educate your kids on persuasive design, showing them, hey, do you see how the next video cues up automatically? That's so you'll sit here forever, child, so you can kind of teach them this is how it's wired. It's bottomless. See how this is bottomless?

That's because they want you to keep scrolling. So you just can help your kid understand this. And then I think something parents can do is delaying giving a child the device. An elementary school child does not need a device, a smartphone, no. A middle schooler, a high schooler, it could really be very healthy for them not to have a device so that they don't have those addictive behaviors start so early. Because social media, TikTok, Instagram, Snapchat, those are all designed to be very addictive and we need to understand that. You know, as we close, I want to read this text that I saw online from a teenager who said this. I was starting to go through depression when I was about 11, maybe 12, all because of social media.

I would look at these girls and compare for legit hours. I didn't know what to do. I just cried. I started to get suicidal. I would show up to school and act like I'm fine, but I wasn't.

When I got my phone, I thought it would be fun to download TikTok and now it ruined my life. And this is an 11-year-old, a 12-year-old, and we think we're doing them a favor by letting them be like their peers. And it's not a favor. It's something that can be very harmful for kids and that's, I think, what parents need to realize.

Yeah. We haven't said much about reading, Arlene, but teaching a child not only how to read, but having times to read and giving them books to read is also an important thing for parents and grandparents to realize, right? And how beautiful. The library is free.

This doesn't even cost you anything. And when you see a child reading a book, it opens up the world to them of whether it's imagination or whether it's learning how to do things, overcome a difficulty. It's a beautiful way to live. And when your kids are just reading, there's this feeling of peace in your home versus if your kids are, you know, gaming or on social media, then you have this completely different feeling. So, yes, reading is such a beautiful answer. I was driving down the highway and saw a huge billboard that said children who read live happily ever after.

That may be an overstatement, but I do think that reading and children having a reading time and reading books, it does open up the world to them. And so, well, I wish we had more time, but I do hope that those who are listening will read these books, one written to parents, the other written to grandparents, because in today's world, this is a hugely important aspect of raising children. So, Arlene, thanks for your involvement with me and writing these two books. And thanks for being with us today on Building Relationships. My pleasure. Thank you so much.

Again, if you go to FiveLoveLanguages.com, you'll find Screen Kids, Five Skills Every Child Needs in a Tech Driven World, as well as Grandparenting Screen Kids, How to Help, What to Say, and Where to Begin. Both are co-written by our guest Arlene Pelicane and our host, Dr. Gary Chapman. Again, just go to FiveLoveLanguages.com to find out more. And next week, How God Communicates His Love with Each of Us. York Moore will reveal how you are seen, known, and loved in one week. Don't miss a powerful conversation. Well, a big thank you to our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Ton. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in Chicago in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.