Get Out Of Your Head - Jennie Allen

Are your spiraling thoughts holding you captive? The new mind is a mind set on the things above. It's fixed on a hope that transcends our circumstances. And how you live is a direct correlation to how you think. You know, it's not just for your kids and it's not just for your friends or your spouse. It's for you.

He wants you to be free. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Today, author and speaker Jenny Allen says the greatest spiritual battle of our generation is being fought between our ears. Is it possible to stop the thoughts that intrude? We're going to talk about that with her today. And if you go to FiveLoveLanguages.com, you'll see our featured resource, Get Out of Your Head, Stopping the Spiral of Toxic Thoughts.

Again, go to FiveLoveLanguages.com. Gary, have you ever had any toxic thoughts? Never, Chris. What are you talking about?

I don't believe that for a second. Listen, I think all of us from time to time through the years have thoughts that are crazy and wild and sometimes evil. And I am really excited about our conversation today because I think this book and I think Jenny Allen is going to be able to help us. So I'm looking forward to our conversation.

I do too. And we were talking just before the program about the span of ages who listened to this program. There are people in their teens and twenties, thirties, all the way up into their seventies and eighties. And this subject is going to hit you right between the ears, as they say.

You'll find out why I said that. As we meet Jenny Allen, she is founder and visionary behind IF Gathering, an organization that equips women to know God more deeply and to disciple others. IF has reached more than a million women in nearly 200 countries.

Isn't that amazing? She's a popular podcaster, sought after speaker. She has a master's degree in biblical studies from Dallas Theological Seminary. She and her husband, Zach, live in Dallas, Texas, or nearby with their children. And again, our featured resource is Get Out of Your Head, Stopping the Spiral of Toxic Thoughts.

You can find out more at fivelovelanguages.com. Well, Jenny Allen, welcome to Building Relationships. Oh, thanks for having me, Gary.

It's great to be here. Your goal is to help us stop the spiral of toxic thinking. So first of all, let's define toxic thinking.

What do you mean by that? Well, I loved you guys opening the show because the truth is everybody's having a lot more toxic thoughts than they realize. And science teaches us this. So over 85 percent of people's thoughts in general are negative. And I know, and over 95 percent are repetitive from the day before. So what that means is that we're thinking the same negative thoughts over, over, and over again on repeat. So it's a little bit, you know, discouraging when you hear that.

But what I mean by it is the ones that really grab you. And typically, you know, most humans, the science teaches us as well, think anywhere from 9,000 to 60,000 thoughts in a day. That's a lot of thoughts.

And so when you think of scriptures like take every thought captive, you know, that puts a whole new spin on it that we are having so many thoughts. And so the first thing I really encourage people to do is to write down their thoughts. And what you'll see if you do that is you might see some of those negative themes rise up. I mean, of 60,000 thoughts, and so many of them being negative, typically, when people write down their thoughts, they'll start noticing a really toxic pattern.

Maybe it's a fear of not having control over their health, or maybe it's fear about the future because of politics, or maybe it has something to do with your kids. A lot of people write about concerns about their kids where they're just spinning endlessly with fear, anxiety, worry, and it's really, truly taking a stronghold on them. And so scripture is so kind because it talks so much about that. But what I found in my research is that science talks a lot about it, too. And what science taught me is exactly what the Bible taught me growing up, which is, you know, God made our brains and our brains are built to have way more control than we thought. I think our listeners are already identifying with this because all of us have some negative thoughts from time to time.

And sometimes, as you say, it can be day after day. Well, who or what inspired you to tackle this topic? Yes, I have this daughter. She is now 18 years old. But when she was in seventh grade, her science teacher saw a passion grow in her for the brain, and specifically to become a neuroscientist. And so she started feeding her all these articles. And my daughter, Kate, really all through high school and middle school, wanted to be a neuro researcher and neuro scientist. And so she wanted to help cure our she wanted to help cure Alzheimer's was her goal. So together, we would watch TED Talks, and we would read all these articles. And again, what I saw was this theme that really surprised me, which was that we have way more power over our thoughts than I realized.

Now, if I told you, one of my friends, let's say, is over, and she's crying, and I told her, hey, quit being sad, you know, it doesn't really work. But you actually do have more power over your thoughts than you can imagine. And science tells us that and Scripture tells us that.

So I think what was exciting to me when I read that was I work with women every day of my life, you know, for the last several decades. And so what I know is that I want to help them, right? I don't want them to be stuck in bondage. I don't want them to be stuck in fear and paralyzed with doubt. What most motivated me was if there's a way out of toxic behaviors and toxic thoughts and even toxic feelings, what is that way? And what science and Scripture were both saying is it's through our brain. It's controlling our thoughts.

We may not be able to control our emotions, but we can control our thoughts. So what's been the response so far to those who've read this book? Yeah, it's overwhelming. I mean, completely overwhelming.

You know something about that, because you're always one sales slot above me, Gary, still, like 20 plus years later. But yeah, it's been absolutely astounding how many people have resonated with this because I do believe, especially coming out in 2020 with the pandemic and with everything politically that's happening and the unrest that we all feel, I think everyone has time to actually feel the anxiety that they probably stored up. I think we've just been too busy to deal with things like this. And in this season, what it's done is not necessarily brought new struggles, but I think we've been able to see them.

One of my friends says it's like the lake was drained in the pandemic and you see what's at the bottom. And that can be really discouraging or that can be really hopeful that it's time to do the work. And I think so many people have, in the last...

The book only came out six or seven months ago, hundreds of thousands of people have said, you know what, I want to do that work. I want to notice what I'm thinking about. Because most of us never think about what we're thinking about. We think about what we feel. We think about how our relationships are affecting us.

But we don't think about what we think about. And I think this is a great moment to do that because it's hopeful to actually deal with the reality of our hearts. It shouldn't be discouraging, especially for a Christian, because there is so much hope and a way out.

Well, you know, Chris said earlier that you founded If Gathering, and through that you've met thousands of women all over the world. Do people in other cultures face this same issue of toxic thinking? I think humans have been facing this since Adam and Eve. I think the same thing that happened to Eve in the garden with the enemy is something that I experienced and really was the reason that I wrote the book, primarily because I walked through a season of doubt in God's goodness, a doubt in God's existence. And it led me to a season of anxiety about death and about the future.

And so it paralyzed me. And I kind of put up with it for so long that I didn't even realize anymore what was happening. I didn't realize I was under spiritual attack. I didn't realize that I could change the way I was thinking.

I didn't let people in. And I think that's very human. I think that that just is happening everywhere. I think our brains are fallen from the time of Adam and Eve. And our brains tend toward the lowest common denominator of feeling sorry for ourselves and being victims and being ungrateful. And part of the power he's given us with the Holy Spirit is to shift all of that and to give us a new heart and a new mind, he says, a mind that's like Christ. We have the mind of Christ.

So it's all a transformation project. But I do believe, yes, all humans struggle with this. And I think it's our propensity to see the worst instead of the best.

I also think, and I think this is irregardless of personality, I think I'm a pretty positive, optimistic person. But what was crazy is I look back and I see, even if it wasn't my mood on a given day that was affected, my thoughts at 3am about the existence of God, it was almost like the enemy was going to find a way to get to me. And I think that's true for all of us, is if we can be discouraged and defeated and distracted, that is a powerful place for the enemy to have us, right?

And so that's where I just, I mean, I got angry and I wanted to fight this. Jenny, there's something that you said earlier, or just this line of thinking that we have more control over our thoughts than we understand. That can be comforting to say, well, I can do something. It can also do the opposite to some people and say, well, you're telling me that all of my toxic thoughts are my fault. So now I feel even worse than I did when we came into this. I feel bad that I have the thoughts and I can't stop them. What do you say to that person? I would say, oh, this is not a blame game.

This is a human game, right? Like, we're all prone to do this. And I want to be really clear that mental illness is real.

This is not something you've imagined in your head. If it's moved to the point of diagnosable anxiety or depression, counseling and medicine, my husband and I both are big fans of that and have seen God use those things in our lives at different points. So I want to be really clear that you can't think your way out of depression necessarily or anxiety. You might need some other tools that God provides besides just your willpower. But I can say, even for those diagnosed with anxiety and depression, the idea that there's a control panel that we have access to should be very empowering.

That that should feel like great news. And I think for most people it does because I think the trick of the enemy is to make us think that we have no power, that what we feel, what we think, all of that is just subject to our circumstances and subject to our personality type or our biology. And I'm saying, yeah, those things play a part, but we have more control than we think. When I did the research and I saw 60,000 thoughts, because I'm up there, I'm not the 9,000, I'm the 60,000. And when I saw that, and then I read the verse, take every thought captive, very discouraged, right? I'm thinking, I cannot take 60,000 thoughts captive.

That's completely overwhelming. And so I get that feeling that people have of just feeling helpless. But the one thought we can take captive, and this is because of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the one thought we can take captive is that I have a choice, a God-given choice that Jesus died for. And so that line, I have a choice, it's what I use every single day still because I still struggle with this and will till I get to heaven.

I still struggle with worry and fear and obsessing over things, right? That's the way I'm going to fight that till I die. But I can fight it. And I do this all the time. And I will remind myself, I did it with my team yesterday.

I wrote the book a long time ago, but I pulled it all back out for devotionals just yesterday at the if-gathering offices because I was like, we got to really revisit this every month or so because we have to realize again, oh wait, what? Notice what you're thinking and what is true and interrupt it with that idea, I have a choice. Yeah. Now you're saying that toxic thinking can derail our goals and keep us from making positive life changes and even destroy relationships. Uh, and that's pretty, pretty tremendous impacts.

Impact that for us a little bit. Yeah. Well, scripture tells us that we are what we think as a man thinketh, so he is, you know, that, that is a verse in scripture. So, so we really are defined by what we think about. And, and I drew it in the book like this, it's a spiral and you know, the spiral is pretty endless, but emotions lead to thoughts, thoughts lead to behaviors, behaviors lead to relationships and relationships then again, impact our emotions and emotions impact our thoughts and goes on and on and on. Right? So, so that spiral can, can go either way. It can go positively up or it can go negatively down. And I'm, I'm noticing, you know, in my life when it starts going negatively down, it's really difficult to pull up depending on how long that's been happening.

Right? So, so the hope is that if we, you know, we got to figure out what's the point of change. What's the, what's the least resistance to change? Well, you know, a lot of people would say behavior, but I know better than that because a lot of times my behavior is just an exact output of my, or my, um, my emotions. So my behavior becomes an exact output of my emotions.

So I can't just depend on, you know, controlling the behavior, although I do believe I have control over that too. But the, the place that scripture really calls us to enter in and to take the reins is in our thought life. And specifically Romans says that, do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of our mind. So the fact that we can change, he's saying change is possible through the way that you think, renewing your mind.

So I just was, that verse intrigued me. I thought, gosh, what if we're working on all the wrong areas? If our minds change, could everything else change for the positive? So while it's negative, it's also really hopeful that we can enter our thought lives and, and start to change everything. You write mainly or primarily to women, but do men hear these negative voices?

Or is that a female thing? You know, no, in fact, I can't even tell you how many men have reached out reading this book. And I think, I think it is, um, absolutely, again, it goes, it's, it's humanity. I was, uh, in, I was sitting in a awesome talk recently after the book came out. One of these men I really respect stopped in the middle of it and saw me in the audience. He was like, I just want you to know your book changed my life.

And I was just so caught apart because I really respect him. And, and it meant so much to me because I do think that this is, and I even wrote it knowing that wives would be passing it over to their husbands and having them read it. So I tried not to, to, to write it primarily to women, but that is certainly who I'm called to minister to and largely have, have done that since I started. So, but absolutely this is men too.

I think we all fight this and we've got to do a better job talking about it. I think sometimes women are more in touch with what they think and what they feel, um, than men. In fact, a lot of times I will end up speaking to men and, and I'll have them do the mind map, which is in the, in the beginning of the book. And they'll start to write all their thoughts out that they've thought for the last 24 hours and men won't stop writing. They can't believe their thoughts. It's like the most fascinating thing they've ever seen. It's like, they've never even noticed what they're thinking about. So it's really important for men to work through this too.

Yeah. Well, here, here's one of the thoughts that's coming to my mind too. And Jenny, I like your response on this is we often have sinful thoughts. I'm thinking now about a husband. Is he to share all of these thoughts that run through his mind during the day that, that he knows are sinful? Do you just share that with his wife or how's that work?

I don't want to hear that. I can't speak for all wives. I think that's super personal for each relationship. But for me, my husband, I feel so much peace about my relationship with Zach because every week he meets with four other men at 6 AM and they have coffee and they go through the hardest questions you can ask each other. And so my confidence comes from the fact that somebody knows, right? Like he's not living in isolation in anything that he's struggling with. But I think that would be hard for me to carry or even understand. And so I think it's just that somebody knows.

We can't live in the dark. We've got to be honest about what we're thinking and what we're feeling because Jesus was pretty clear that he changed the commandments on everybody. He was like, it's not just don't sleep with a man's wife.

It's don't even think of a man's wife. So I think Jesus really took it to our minds. He really took it to our motives and our heart. And so we've got to be zealous for this. This is important to God. And I think it is the reason so many people feel like they're in bondage, even if their behavior is somewhat moral. Their minds are prone to sin and that's just human. That's not special people that are really messed up. I remember one radio host asked me the question, so I mean, is this just for really messed up, crazy people? And I was like, that is such a guy question.

Guess what, buddy? You're crazy and messed up too. And so am I.

We all are. And I think we all need the mind of Christ every day to override whatever our sinful desires are. So I think that's our common grace, is that we all need the same God and we need to change. So when you're thinking about what you're thinking and you're taking time to write it down, which is a way of doing that, you're really laying out to yourself, in the presence of God, what God already knows, we're just acknowledging what he already knows about what our thoughts are, but we're, it's a way of making us conscious of what we're thinking. That's the first step is what I'm hearing you say.

Yes, yes. And isn't it a kind step? I mean, it's his kindness that leads us to repentance, right?

It's not his anger. And I think that is what everybody's got to realize. You know, I just think this is scary if we feel shame on top of the shame. If we feel shame for feeling shame, you know, that's an impossible place to be, but the truth is he calls us out of our shame. He wants us to recognize it so that he can set us free from it.

Yeah, yeah. Well, let's change gears a little bit and let's talk about the neuroplasticity and the science of the brain and how that compares to what the Bible says about our minds. You alluded to this earlier, but I think many people don't put those two things in the same category, what the Bible says on neuroscience. So yeah, let me take you on into the science a little bit.

It's super fun and fascinating. The brain has, you know, I think everybody knows this, that they have neurons make up the brain and these are real physical things. And every neuron has another real physical part of it. It's like a brain to that specific cell called a microtubule. And so that little brain processes your thoughts, right? So it takes a thought that you're having and it builds a little city in your brain. So the microtubules build little cities around your thoughts and it physically alters your brain.

So when you have a negative thought, a little city is built right in your brain around that thought. So just from one thought, how long, Gary, would you guess? Now you are really smart and I think, you know, qualified way more than me to talk about this.

So you might actually get this. Most people don't. How long do you think it takes from the point that you have a thought till, you know, that little city exists in your brain?

I don't know. I would think it might be pretty fast. Everybody thinks it's like 0.2 seconds.

It's actually 10 seconds. And why I find that so interesting is that your brain is actually thinking about your thinking harder than you are. Your brain is working really hard around your thoughts. It has a lot of action around your thoughts. And so the fact that you think a negative thought and 10 seconds later a little city, a little physical alteration has happened in your brain is a little bit scary. You know, I think people are like, oh, great. I've been thinking negative thoughts for 15 years.

Like, what do I have? And I'm like, you might have an empire, like a whole empire in your brain. It's a little scary. But the truth is that should feel really hopeful.

Because in the same way that a little negative city can be built in 10 seconds, a positive city can be made too. And I think that's the hope we have is we can change this. And yes, it takes time. When I walked through, which I'll mention in a little while more in depth, when I walked through that season of doubt, it was really long. So I didn't just change my mind overnight.

Like, it took weeks, you know, almost months to walk out of that season. So I want to give people hope that changing the patterns and disciplines of our mind, it takes work and it takes time. It's not something instant, but it is something that can change and starts with just really positive interruptions that and fighting back with what God's given us. So you're saying replace those negative thoughts with the positive. But the negative comes back again in a little bit.

So the science would say that. I tried to get to the end of like, what is their hope? You know, if you don't believe in God, what is the hope of self-help?

What is the hope of the science community for this? And they always kind of ended with something like, believe in yourself. You are awesome. Like, you are enough. You know, there are all these messages that I don't actually really buy into. I'm like, I am really a sinner. In fact, I yelled at my kids this morning, you know, when they're trying to get out the door.

So I'm like, I actually don't feel awesome. Like, that didn't ever stick for me. What I found more helpful is to interrupt those thoughts with weapons that God has given me. I tell people too, if you're treating this passively, it will run over you.

Like, your brain is hardwired negatively. Add to it an enemy that does not want you to be free. You're at war. And if you don't treat it like war, then you are going to keep getting run over. And so what changed for me after the season of doubt was realizing the power that I have because of God. 2 Corinthians 10 tells us that we aren't fighting flesh, that we're fighting spirit.

And he says, but I've given you divine weapons to destroy strongholds. And then that's exactly where it also leads into, so therefore take every thought captive. So this is all about our minds that he's talking about in that very, you know, intense war language, few passages. And what I saw was, gosh, we are being passive about this. We want to just take a positive thought on it and a little sticker on our mirror that says, you're a great person.

And I'm like, that's not working. We have to realize that the goal of the enemy is to completely destroy, to kill, steal, and destroy us. And what a great way to do it in our mind where, you know, he can say whatever he wants to. It whispered whatever he wants to us. We believe it. And it's on repeat. 95% of our thoughts are on repeat.

So I think this has been a strategic way he's gotten us. And my hope is that people would wake up and go, gosh, I've got to fight this regularly. And the three things that are clear to me, those divine weapons throughout Scripture, are the Spirit of God, to pray in the Spirit that we have the power, like we've got to. And now I speak with authority against the enemy because I don't have to be held captive by his lies in the middle of the night, which was what was happening. And then number two, the Word of God, which is what got me through Psalm 139, when I had that fear of death that was pretty pervasive in my life, I would speak and pray Psalm 139, that if I go up to the heavens, you are there.

If I go down to the grave, even there, you are with me. And so I would say that over and over again, that I cannot flee from your presence, fighting with Scripture. And then the third thing, and this is probably the one people are not prone to be excited to apply, is the people of God, that we need to tell people. We need to bring people into what we're thinking about.

We can't just write our own list and sit on it. We have to tell people what we've been processing because if we don't tell them, then what's going to happen is we're stuck in it by ourselves. The minute I opened up about an 18-month struggle of doubt, the minute I did, and I heard myself say it to my friends, number one, they fought for me, they fasted and they prayed, and number two, I heard myself say it and I realized I'm under spiritual attack and I knew better how to fight it.

But it wasn't until I admitted it to other people that I could really get free. So Jenny, you've alluded to a dark time in your own life and particularly with a lot of doubt about God Himself. Share that a little more fully with us and how you worked through that and what it was like. So I think that's something we don't talk about enough is that I think we all have doubts.

I listened to Tim Keller a lot through that season and he's really kind about that. He just says doubt is really a part of faith, but it really grew from just casual thoughts to a stronghold. Because it was 3 a.m. every night, I woke up in the middle of the night, every single night for 18 months, and I would just be asking myself these huge questions of, is this really true and are we sure that God is real? And I realized when I looked back at that season, I was feeding myself a lot of cynicism and I was not in the Word as much as I was, reading the news and social media and all of that. And I think what began to happen is it just began to erode my confidence.

And certainly the enemy was a part of that too. In fact, we talked about that 2 Corinthians 10 passage, it says that we destroy any arguments being lifted up against God. And I think that was what was happening to me is there were arguments in my mind being lifted up against God. And that's another thing Tim Keller says is, be sure you put your doubts on trial. Don't just put your faith on trial, also put your doubts on trial.

And I didn't do that through those 18 months. It wasn't until, again, like I said, I let people in that I began to fight that. But it was scary.

And especially as somebody who's leading a massive Christian organization, I'm speaking and writing about God and faith. It was very scary. And yet, I never lost that hope. Hebrews says that the evidence of things hoped for, and I think that evidence of things hoped for is what I held on to. I always saw evidence of that hope.

And I always wanted it to be real. And so I held on to that. I held on to other people's faith in my life. But as soon as I turned and started fighting it, instead of just letting it happen to myself, everything changed.

And I think that's why I wanted to write the book was what if other toxic spirals could be fought in a similar way where instead of just letting it happen to us, we actually turn and fight. Yeah, I was going to ask you that question because you were, while you were going through this, you were leading your group, if gathering, and with all of these struggle and doubts and all. What was it like before you shared it with anyone else? It seems to me that was kind of the turning point for you when you shared it with some trusted friends. But what was it like when you were going through that and yet you were actively talking and sharing with other people about life and other issues?

Yeah. I remember my editor, when I wrote about this season, was worried about me. She said, I'm worried people are going to look back at that season of your life that was significant and long, where you spoke a lot and feel like you were being a hypocrite.

And I was like, I'm not worried about that. Because I think, I look back at myself even in the midst of that. And even when I would be preaching and wondering in the back of my head, is this pretend?

Am I wasting my life on this? That wondering would be there. But I preached still with faith.

If that makes sense. It was never fake. It was just wrestling. And I think that wrestling is what I want to comfort people with is, that's not evidence that you don't have faith.

Maybe it's evidence that you do. And I think that season, I look back and I'm like, I never did lose my faith. The image I use in the book is, I felt like I was hanging in the air and I was just falling.

But what I didn't realize, and I would later realize, is that I was falling from a crane that had a strong hook in my pants, and I wasn't going to fall. And that's our God. My faith was not being held up by my thought life or by my willpower. My faith is held up because it's a gift from God, and He secures me for eternity. It's not myself and my faith. So I think that comforted me looking back, that God let me feel that way, I think, to be more empathetic toward people and to have more compassion as people wrestle with their faith.

And to just wake me up to how much I need God, right? But I don't think that I was fraudulent. I wasn't believing another religion.

I just was scared it wasn't true. Yeah. Doubt is different from overt sin. Would you agree with that? Absolutely.

I hope everybody hears that loud and clear. Now, I think you can feed doubt and it becomes sin. I do believe that.

I think my sin in all of that was just not being honest with the people around me and hiding what I was going through. I think that's where it turned darker. And I think that's where I gave the enemy room to run with that fear and with that anxiety. So I do think that's where we can do a better job is just let people in.

Yeah. But to do that is kind of scary, is it not? Because you don't know how other people are going to respond. So how important is it to make a wise decision about whom you share your thoughts with? Such a good question.

I want to turn that back to you, Dr. Chapman, just because this is your wheelhouse. And I'd be so curious your answer to that. You know, I think it has to be a person that you trust, a person that you have a relationship with. Not necessarily just a professional Christian, like a pastor. You know, sometimes people feel like, if I'm going to really share my heart, I got to share it with a pastor or a professional counselor. I don't think that's necessarily true, but it does have to be someone that you have a relationship with that's pretty deep and that you trust them with your thoughts. Would you agree with that or you have a different slant?

Yes. No, I think we throw our most difficult things around the internet and are surprised that we end up, you know, feeling more isolated. I think we've got to realize that life on life, sitting across from somebody trusted, time, committing to the relationships that might be difficult for a long time, but prove to be more fruitful in the end. I think we've got to be slower to walk away from difficult relationships, you know, because those difficult relationships maybe are supposed to make us more holy. So I think we run from difficulty and then leave behind kind of our intimacy with people. So that's a deeper, bigger subject, but I do think you're exactly right.

We've got to be more careful who we share with, but we've got, you know, I always say you've got to have two or three people that know what's going on with you, that are going to ask you the hard questions, that are not going to, you know, leave you in your own head for too long. Yeah, yeah. We're talking about thoughts. So is there a thought that can interrupt a negative thought pattern? Or is it, are there many thoughts? What comes to your mind when I ask that?

Yes. Well, again, I had to boil this down. Yeah, I had to boil this down. I couldn't, you know, it overwhelmed me to take all my thoughts captive. It felt like trying to catch, you know, the imagery I used in the book is that little bird loose that that was in our house one time, you know, I felt like that was impossible. So I don't know how to take wild thoughts captive very easily. But what I do know how to do is to place a thought in the mix, right? So the thought that I really encourage everyone to think as often as you need it is I have a choice. And again, that is that God-given power that he's given us. And so, you know, the book really lays out the different choices we have that we can choose gratitude instead of victimhood that, you know, that we always have a choice as to which road to walk down. Romans 8 lays that out so beautifully that there's a road to sin and death, and a road to life and peace. And some of us are just stuck on that road to sin and death. We just know it well. We keep choosing it. What Romans makes clear is with the power of God, you have the ability to switch roads, you can move to the road of life and peace.

And that's possible today. As people are driving or doing dishes or doing whatever they do in their life, that's a moment where you can realize, hey, I don't have to think about this. So what it looks like for me is pretty quickly, I will notice if I usually I notice my feeling before my thoughts. So I'll feel anxious, and I'll need to stop and think, okay, what am I anxious about?

And I'll notice I've been circling this one subject a lot. And so I'll just tell myself like, okay, I have a choice. I don't need to go down this road anymore. Now, sometimes that won't work, right?

Sometimes it just doesn't work. And so pretty quickly, within I would say two hours, if I notice myself really not able to get off that spiral, I will phone a friend. And I will say, can I talk this out with you really quickly? By that point, I prayed about it. I've read some scripture, you know, I fought it on my own. But if it's just not, if I can't get off that road, I'll bring a friend into it.

And I think I'm a lot quicker than 18 months now. You know, now it's more like two hours and I'm calling somebody, because I just don't want to dwell on it. I did this yesterday. I do this probably once a week where I get really stuck on something, and I can't get off it. And I'll just call a sister or one of my good friends and just say, hey, can I process this with you? And usually they'll just listen. It's different friends.

I don't want to wear anybody out. It's different friends, depending on the subject. And I'll just say, hey, can I process this? I might only need to talk about it two minutes. And I may not need that friend to say a word to me.

I just needed to say it. And when I hear myself say it, it's a little bit different than just being in my head. That's why we called the book, Get Out of Your Head, because I really do think we've got to say it out loud sometimes to get it, to move on.

Jenny, I have a question for you. The person in your life, you know, I'm thinking about a couple of different people who have this, they have these toxic thoughts spiraling around. How do I help? How does the person on the other side aid that person who's going through this? Well, that is a very tricky question, because we've got to be, first of all, doing this in ourselves. One thing I do with my kids, because that's who I think about the most that I want to be the most free in life, right? What I'll do with them is I will get them talking, I will just get them talking about what they're worried about. Because a lot of times, if you can just get them to open up, and what you know, some of my kids do this easier than others, then and they start to then and they start to process, then they will kind of come to their own realizations. And they'll kind of start to admit, you know what, this is really, I'm really thinking about this a lot.

And and you've just got to be bold and fight for people. This cannot be something we're passive about ourselves. And it can't be something we're passive about in other people.

I really believe in marriages, I think, I think husbands should read this book with their wives, because you can help each other. I mean, you can you can notice a lot of times, it'll be Zach that, that will see me in my face and my posture and say, What are you worried about? You know, he'll physically see me being worried, and he'll be able to call me out of it.

And I didn't even notice, you know, so I think we've got to be on guard for the people we love. And, but we've got to do it in a way that's relational and not telling them what to do. That never works. I've never seen it work.

It doesn't work when someone does it to me. I but if somebody says, Hey, are you worried about something and they're willing to sit there and listen for a good little chunk of time? I'll probably talk, you know, and I bet your kids would too.

And I bet your husband will. So I think we just have to be those that practice listening and helping people come to their own conclusions and exploring what God has to say about that together. Empathizing. My favorite thing is when somebody has the, you know, the head nod. The head nod always to me means I get it, you know, it's you're not alone. So I always am someone who, my daughter makes noises like, hmm, yes.

You know, she's agreeing. I nod my head, you know, I think we all have our different thing we do. But, but it's important to just to listen and to get it and, and to be in it with somebody. So I hear you saying that really empathetic listening, that is putting yourself in their shoes and trying to understand what they're thinking and feeling is probably the biggest thing we can do to help. Yeah, I feel like the student answering questions in front of the professor, like Dr. Chapman, you are the king of relationships. So I would love to hear kind of what your thoughts are on that.

No, I really agree with that. And the next part of it is, is there a place for sharing? And, you know, for the person that's listening, sharing with the person, and I think affirming their thoughts and feelings, expressing understanding of their thoughts and feelings. And then if you've had a similar experience to say, you know, here, here's one of the things that helped me when I was going through a similar thing.

It may or may not be helpful to you. But you know, you're throwing out an idea that you found helpful. You know, also sharing Scripture, that you have to avoid the thing of preaching. You don't want to preach to a friend, you know, you got to snap out of this, God said, da da da. But you know, Scripture, again, that's been meaningful to you, might be meaningful to them, if you share it in a loving kind way, not in a preachy way. One thing I would say to you, if you're the one that needs to share this with somebody, is to ask, you know, to set the tone of the conversation, because there are times I need my friend to preach to me. And that's what I'm asking for.

But I've got to say that. And I think we've got to not be afraid to ask that too. Like, do you want me to give you my thoughts? Or do you need me just to listen?

Like, that is a great question. Yeah, that's good. For spouses, for friends, you know, I just think sometimes we don't set the expectations of a conversation, and so we're disappointed. But if we say, hey, I really just need you to listen, I don't think I need you to say anything. And then afterwards, you might be curious, like, well, what do you think? You know, that's fine. But I think sometimes we have to set those guardrails up, so we're not disappointed.

Yeah, yeah. Now, you write in the book that we don't simply need our spiraling thoughts to stop. We need our minds to be redeemed.

What does that look like? Once you've kind of taken the thought captive? What do you mean by redemption of the mind? Yeah, well, it's a very mysterious term in the scriptures that talks about that we've been given, if you're a follower of Jesus Christ, you've been given the mind of Christ.

It's in Philippians. It's a very interesting phrase. And the phrase is, I think, an already and not yet statement. A lot of the scripture is that way that, you know, we've been made righteous in Christ, you're a holy people set apart.

It's like, well, not so much, you know, we have a lot of work to do. So I think there's an already in the sense of that we've been given the power to have the mind of Christ, that he's given us a choice, and that choice is ours daily, and we're never completely defeated and entangled and in bondage to sin anymore, that the door's been unlocked, and it's our choice to walk out, minus mental illness and the physical fall, right? And so when I think of that door being open and being able to walk out, that's the difference, right, in the person that has the mind of Christ.

Now, do we do it? And I think that's the practice of discipline over time. And I think that's where interrupting the spiral is a first step.

But what we're really looking for is a new way to think. And the only way I've found that actually comforts every single problem is the way of Christ. That's why I don't ever call myself a self-help author unless self-help is taking you to Jesus, because I don't really have like another great answer.

I'm like, I'm not going to be the one that says you're awesome. In fact, I'll tell you, you're a sinner. And I think what we need is the hope of forever. And the only hope for death is that. So I just think that the new mind is a mindset on the things above, it's fixed on a hope that transcends our circumstances. And I think that's actually what we're all craving. Scripture says that eternity was set in Ecclesiastes, it says, eternity was set in our hearts, that we were, we long for it. Whether or not we, you know, mentally think about that very often or not, there is a longing in us for a hope that transcends our circumstances. And I think that's, you know, that's the only hope I have. You know, one of the prayers that I pray, I picked up many, many, many years ago when an older gentleman said to me, this was in the early days of the Billy Graham ministry.

He said, you know what? I pray for Billy Graham. I pray that God will keep his heart.

I never forgot that. And it became a prayer that I pray for myself, you know, Lord, keep my heart. And by heart, I mean mind and, you know, the real me in there, you know, because it's not just us. We can't just think our way to wellbeing. Our thoughts are really important, but it's bringing those thoughts to God and asking Him, you know, to direct them.

So let's get one more thing. In the book, you say that we all have a contagious mind, that our minds are contagious. What do you mean by that?

And is that positive or negative? Yeah, I think it's both, right? I think how we think influences the culture of every space we touch, every relationship we have.

And so I think it's both. And my hope for everybody listening right now is that even if you are not motivated for yourself to be free, that you would look at the people you love and you would want to model a free mind that isn't entangled with strongholds. And sometimes that's what motivates us. If I look at my kids and somebody told me the greatest way for your kids to believe in God and to like Him and to love Him and to believe in themselves and to like themselves and love themselves is for you to do that and to model that.

I would be very motivated to make sure that my mind liked and loved God and liked and loved myself. And I think that is sometimes what we need, the kick in the pants. It is less about what we say to people and more about how we live for people. And how you live is a direct correlation to how you think, unfortunately. But also fortunately, because God wants you to be free too. It's not just for your kids and it's not just for your friends or your spouse. It's for you.

He wants you to be free. Well, Ginny, this has been a fascinating conversation. And I know that those who are listening have found it so, because I certainly have. And I really would encourage our listeners to read this book.

I think it will build on what you've heard today. So thanks for being with us. Thanks for being with us. And thanks for the ministry that you have, not only to the ladies, but to me as well. Thank you.

Thanks for having me. I am going to start building those cities of positivity in my brain right now. And if you want to find out more about our featured resource, the title is Get Out of Your Head, Stopping the Spiral of Toxic Thoughts. Just go to FiveLoveLanguages.com.

FiveLoveLanguages.com. And next week, your questions and comments about any relationships struggle. Our post-Thanksgiving Dear Gary is coming up next week. Our thanks today to our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Todd. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.