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December 5, 2020 1:00 am
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As a mom, do you feel inadequate, frustrated and sometimes overwhelmed. Don't miss today's Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman loving our children well tried to remaining injury that if we really want to love targeted even when there is the field of personal even when it's very perpetual and we have welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller "The 5 Love Languages" today. Author Maggie shares nourishment for moms who need freedom from the pressures mother could bring. What is the pressure of being a mom or moms feel that moms put on them so talk about her book motherhood without all trading stressful standards confided five love languages.com. You seen this counseling was you and Carolyn raising your children will live a hard time living up to some impossible standard groups are funded most of counseling should really more common during all the pandemic because so many mothers of been putting the stress of educating their children from home and they were doing that other homeschoolers were already set up for but the brothers are center gives the school in so many places in the country. As you know, there still are back in school and so just wrestling with all of that along with everything else they already had in their mind. So yeah, I think I think there's a lot of moms refill a lot of stress and wonder about doing it right in the house is going to flip my children.
It is normal for mothers to have some level of stress but really excited about that.
Talk with Megan today about this concept. Her name is Maggie Combs COM BS she's wife, a mom of three boys. She writes and speaks when motherhood overwhelmed her. God drew her closer to himself through the writing of her first book on super mommy. You can find out more about her in our featured resource today. The new book motherhood without all the rules go to five love languages.com Maggie Combs.
Welcome to Building Relationships tell us about your first book that Chris just mentioned super mommy and how you work on that. This book motherhood without all the rules give us the journey. I had just had three boys and three. And I had a three-year-old. One-year-old and a baby and so I wrote that book, the book that I needed for a mom who is just deep in the exhaustion of the early years of motherhood had all these glorious expectation for how she thought motherhood would go and you know only a few of them materialized, really exhausted so I'm super mommy really teaches women to let go of what they expected. Mother had to be, and begin to see their weakness as the starting place for God's strength in their lives and just came from a desperate need of God and then thing happened this magical thing where my boys started to grow up and motherhood didn't get any simpler but it got thickly easier than what had been figured like now is my time to do all those things that would make me a good mom now is my time to grow and so what I did as I said, trying to sanctify myself with my own teeth grinding grit instead of relying on an active relationship with God, and I found that I had really begun to adopt societies than the standard of what makes a good mom instead of doing the hard and holy work of walking with God. No wonder it wasn't working. I can't exhibit the fruit of the spirit and relating to my children without being in the spirit myself. I can't demonstrate the gospel to my children. I'm not living in the gospel myself, but that's where motherhood without all of the rules came from.
Sounds exciting. So let's jump into one of these rules come from that moms have are they self-imposed come from culture to the church. What were your thoughts on that. I would say yes. All of the this book.
I am primarily dealing with rules that come from our culture, especially if you were raised in the church like I was plenty of those church rules that aren't really rules but they kind of slipped and are thinking and the problem with all of these rules, whether they come from culture at large or the church or herself that they can't offer the growth and freedom were searching for only the gospel can do that. So this is the stress that comes out of this of having the standard set up there for us to distort the way your mother's thinking. The way she's feeling about herself. What I hear you saying is that if we can think in terms of the truth, the gospel, the Scriptures give us a different perspective and a better perspective, stressful standards because I think they're stressful to actually think this is how moms get freedom, but we know that in God's upside down kingdom the way society does things is usually the opposite of the way God does thing and so were really looking for an opportunity to take a step back from just living day-to-day and say how is what I'm thinking and considering building my life on. Is it the truth of God's word or is it just something that's been spoonfed to me as the perfect answer from all my trouble was an example of a stressful standards that might not be the biblical standard.
I think this one so pertinent to this time that were living in in the pandemic. Everything depends on you and moms can I say this in two ways. I'm so stressed up everything depends upon me, the buck stops here. You know and then we wear it like a batch like you see this I keep these children alive and we can like I did this, but it's actually the gospel truth is that God is the best parent is the one keeping our kids the life he is the one who's in control of our circumstances and he's not only our heavenly father. He is the perfect parent to our children love the freedom to still be thoughtful and motherhood about the decisions we make with our kids, but they don't have to carry the same weight because ultimately God is in control and he is sovereign and he loves our children and wants what's best for him. Then and he knows what's best.
Much better than what we do so doesn't handle this well moms and instruments in the hand of God ultimately suits God provides the real movies of children's what are some other these rules that interfere in the life of mom. One is you need and the gospel truth that God supplies exactly what you need because little skates like maybe running to the pantry for a chocolate bar really tired their momentary there's nothing wrong in and of themselves, but it's just that they're not God, and we can't live in place all of our hope in the next little escape or it will always disappoint. Another is that society tells us that we have to be more than just a mom that might mean we have to be the perfect mom we have to be a certain kind of mom that society tells us you you can figure out what you're the best that you have to be better than being just a mom, but the gospel tells us that we actually find our lives by losing. We follow the path of Jesus we can serve our family without losing ourselves because we are hidden and safe in Christ talk about these stressors in our lives that things really aren't true. I think you know less than three weeks till Christmas. There are all lot of mom's dad's tube a lot of moms that are doing some preparation.
It's gotta be right. It's got to be the best. It's gotta be the best Christmas ever, and there's there's a lot of stress in that and probably some wrong thinking. What you think about mom and have fear instead of a foam FICA phone call. Fear of my kids missing out and they think if they don't do everything just right and create this magical childhood, then their children will blame them later or maybe problems that they have later it will be all their fault they're making their children their identity and also making themselves in their children's life and so moms are told that this is their only chance with their children and God tells us even if we fail to have the perfect Advent calendar finished or that yummy Christmas morning breakfast. He can redeem even our imperfection because his strength covers our weakness and our identity is in Christ alone think Chris Long took a lot of times about Christmas. We have ideas that come from our childhood city that we want to repeat. We want to make our children to experience better spiritually said when we were children. Christmas is nothing wrong with mowing your kids to have a good time at Christmas right leg looked at to put you under such a burden that you become overanxious by God's please.
With that, would you say we have tendency to if we want things to go perfectly lead of really control we set up ourselves is moms. I call it the kingdom of mom and we rule it to make sure that everything happens exactly as we planned, and then we might miss out on opportunities to really get down with their kids and share the gospel with them because were so stressed out I making our little kingdom look perfect for you. In the book you're very buildable home several points here you are with three sons and you share in the book that there was a time when you felt guilty for hoping to have a daughter.
How did you reconcile those thoughts and feelings couple years of battle for me because I really look forward to having a daughter and I was a little girl. I'm very close with my mom and I wanted to experience that kind of relationship myself and then when I didn't get one struggled with real grief over that disappointment and that because everyone who sees a mom only boys. I'm sure only girls assumes how you must've wanted a girl they all have an opinion about how I should be feeling about my child situation. They might tell me like you gotta try for one more or it's okay boys are the best or you should just be happy with the three children that you got right and I can create feelings of guilt and shame about the emotions that you are processing so it was a very confusing, very painful time and I found I no longer wanted to believe that God had a good plan for my life. At least in that area so I thought well I can pull myself together and look at all these blessings God has given me because that's what people tell me to look at everything else great. You have and I kept telling myself. You gotta feel better because God gave you these other blessings and you gotta appreciate that, but what I found was that one good blessing or many good blessings can't balance out a painful disappointment because only a relationship with God can balance out her grief. Psalm 145 was a real comfort to me because it says that God is faithful and kind in all his works and through meditating on that I realized it was actually using my disappointment as a kindness because it served to draw me near to him. It showed me how much I need him and how much the things of this world will never satisfy me and I know that near to God, always the best place for me to be so well when I was finally able to recognize that it can be God good kind plan to not give me a daughter so that I would always be continually longing after him before we got married. My wife told me that she will have five boys came from a large family were still love them and think seven of them were boys and I was in love in us.
So it's fine babe whatever you want. We had a girl first and she said once the but once our daughter was born, she still tied her up on her lap holder in the bed and she said to me to still hundred anesthesia and the she said it's a little girl, but I couldn't help it because those you didn't know what it was that was born okay. I think that had having children never looks quite what we plan for it to look like you like yet is in control. I think most people have an idea what they like about children before they have children. Nothing wrong with that but we have to recognize that were not in control of all that's what would you say to a mom who has three boys.
Or maybe three girls and once a boy, what, what would you say to her other moms who are grieving the loss of a dream plan that they had her mother had just learned to actually lament and grieve those things because a lot of time. We are too ashamed to even let ourselves experience the emotion and if you can careen while resting in the gentle care of God you're gonna find that that process happens a lot more quickly and pray that the God of all comfort will then be a comfort to you and in the process to teach you that Jesus really is better than every blessing of this world you mentioned this earlier that moms are told they need to escape or they need an escape in the can take many different forms and there's nothing wrong with having a break from the normal routine if and when you can arrange that. But you have some cautions about that. What are the healthy ways to pursue on the spiritual side you we sometimes call soul care or self-care.
What are some healthy ways of doing that like become problematic only when we set our hope in so okay and self-care look like were doing the same action, but they come from an attitude of our heart right if our heart is I deserve this kid free morning or this bath or this pedicure you think women mothers dream about right, we say I deserve that and take it we are not relying on the God who says come to me all who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest that we change our motivation we say Lord I need you and I'm finite and I can't do everything, because I am not God please show me ways that I can get rest in my current circumstances that transforms even the same activities that we were doing before because they come from that of an attitude of I deserve this and attitude of I know that I'm not God, and I need rest in my humble attitude is what will change them to be really nourishing parcels talking.
The book also about God's discipline in our lives. Some people always think of the word discipline is been negative but you say it's a positive word like I certainly concur with that. So talk about God's discipline and how he wants to use even the painful experiences that we have in our lives. Now about the plan right someday as it feels like that's the only thing we even get to do and if we take a step back. We know that discipline is different than anger -induced punishment.
We know that good discipline looks like helping our children growl and mature and includes teaching them what God's truth is, instead of letting them make up their own truth. It means setting boundaries when the world tell their children there no limit, and it might even mean withholding good things like I talked about with my experience of not getting a daughter so that her kids would experience the best instead of treating them to every little thing they desire.
We now that you know vegetable are better for them than Candice or sometimes we withhold candy right so we also know that S discipline happens in those moments of discomfort. So if we consider that God is our heavenly father. A perfect parent then because he loves us going to allow us to be uncomfortable and even experience. Sometimes painful circumstances for the goal of growth in God's kingdom. We don't deserve comfort and ease and he is actually two kind to give them to us in our discomfort. We discovered the joy of completing a marathon that leads to growing in God instead of a vacation in the muck of our hearts earthly desires like that point God sometimes doesn't give us what we ask for what we want and we might say that is a loving kind, but that what God allows in our lives grows out of his love for us to lead us and that's a pretty powerful point.
And yes, we don't always get what we want, but if we recognize that God responds to us out of love what we do get comes out of his love even if it's a hard thing and in his intentions are good thing, but there's a double edge sword with Gary because I I know I am not like God over knowledge of my motives and I almost think what you're saying in that is I really have to have my my motive has to be to give my children the love my children deeply and let's go back to the habit of celebration at a birthday party Christmas. Whatever it is, if my motivation is. I will make my child happy because I didn't have a good birthday party or Christmas when I was a child, then I get wrapped up in the response in the you know of the glitz and the glitter and all that, rather than the relational aspect of that that make sense Gary think so.
And the fact is, you know, we have ideas of what will make our children happy and sometimes those are good ideas and sometimes are not good ideas. And sometimes we caving in and do things for two of their asking us to do we know what our minds are not good you are given three candy bars just before lunch but God loves us too much to do that. Ditto he knows what's good for so that he will not give us even if we ask things that he knows are not good for us.
So you think we trust that we trust God's love and recognize that were not perfect.
His parents, or even even you can feel guilty, Maggie. You say there's been no subtitle but there's a bitter divorce and you feel so bad about that that you will go overboard on one area or another to make up for.
You know what happened back there and so it it's a hard thing to look at those motivations is motivation because that's where the heart change happens. I'm thinking of. There's this new term called no pile parent teen with helicopter parenting. Other snowplows and they just help my parents kind of go before their children and just push every might possibly cause any sort of tension or discomfort in their child's life to the side for them including you know calling teachers and trying to get their assignment and when they were later get them full credit at those kinds of things and that's all we have to go back to who we know God as is apparent that he uses hard circumstances not just delete should use them with her children but we don't want our children to feel a little bit of discomfort sometime because otherwise they don't have need of God and the last thing we want their children to grow up not even recognize the need of a Savior. You talk about my shaming. What is that and what's the root of it, so there is this all that. I think it 9/10 moms feel like there should have been shamed for something they've done right and finds like we can figure this out with shame coming from and what is shame even we all know the feeling right, but let's identify what it is and counselor Ed Welch defined shame as the deep sense that your unacceptable because of something you did something done to you or something associated with you and that son of his quote, but I also like to add something you didn't do that you thought you should do can make you feel ashamed I feel like that's really common and motherhood with this list of all the things we should do right, but what we might see shame as an external force most dangerous part about it is that most of the shame actually happened in our own mind. Shame ourselves, I find myself struggling with my worth as a mom sometimes in thinking something doesn't go just type planet think even any good at this. Everything I did today have any value. I have any value in thoughts like that.
They found two extremes spoken out loud right but they find a place to really thrive and grow in a mom's mind and the root of mom. Shame is really where we have put our identity have we put it in the work that we're doing is mom or have we put it in the work that Christ has done on our behalf, and the acceptance that he bought for us on the cross good mom, shaming the concept while the world tells us not to be ashamed of anything right because the best thing we can do is just be our authentic self. But this just cements the shame because it means that if we failed at something that failure isn't just something that happened. It's who we are and there's nothing we can do about it. But the good news of God's grace is more than a game changer. It's a shame change, or if you're Christian. Jesus died on the cross for your stand. His righteousness covers your stand before the eyes of God, which means if you're experiencing guilt and shame.
You can come beforehand. You can confess your stand and then experience the freedom of being under the work of Christ, so your guilt and your sin is no longer your identity as Christians we have. We are new creation. We think been given a new identity in Christ and from that place of acceptance, you will find freedom is the message of the Christian size absolutely. Here's a Savior. I think that that many Christian parents have and that is that they will raise their children and later those children will walk away from the face. Give your perspective on that. I don't know. I mom who doesn't struggle with fear. It's just so pervasive. I want our children to come to know the Lord that their deepest desire what happened is that if we start to place identity and motherhood instead of in Christ, then what happens to us is mom children don't come to Christ because you know if you're Christian mom kid who can Mike recite an entire book of the Bible grows up to be a missionary. It's kind of like getting in a plot right it's like minded something really good here, but this way of thinking is living in a world of karma. It says if you're a godly mom you'll get complicated. I know their women listening who I like that everything you know, did the very best I could get a kid not following the Lord, we know even though we tend to find that system we know in our hearts like that's not true.
If we look around us does not reward us with godly kids because of the hours we spend laying down our lives to teach the children the path to follow my else are we doing all this work then right to be rewarded with godly kids. What's the point of all this motherhood, where so we've elevated motherhood into being like best virtue that a woman can do right and the reward is that we get these godly kids but were wrong with that. We do the work of motherhood, the reward we get to be part of God's kingdom we get to be glorifying him in groin and intimacy with him and he is always our greatest reward.
So get rid of the cedar that her child will reject Christ and walk away. I don't think we completely get rid of it and so I asked a friend of mine now actually had this experience she had a daughter shipped on all the good Christian things shipped to children and one of them grew up follow the Lord. One of them took a different path for many years. Praise the Lord that child has come to repentance. But Sandra said, and I have not watched the fire in his path as you have so what advice would you give me and she told me something really simple. She said you just have to keep asking every time you have that fear. Your child will never come to know the Lord. Ask yourself if Jesus really is better than everything in the world, even godly kids and I'll be honest, I can always say that I believe that working to believe that I'm praying to believe that I'm taking that fear before God and laying it down and saying please Lord help my unbelief. Think there are parents who are listening and serving many many prayers in the country whose children have walked away from the place. Either they were in college or even after college and in my office, but they typically asked the question, what did I do wrong and when I remind them is first of all we can control the decisions of our children. Every human being has freedom to choose to walk away or to follow God. We can control that we do influence our children to be sure, and all of us want to have a positive influence on them by demonstrating the Christian life with the other thing I share with his parents is listen God's first two children went wrong. Adam and Eve. They had the best parent possible and they were wrong so don't don't put yourself down. You're not totally responsible for the decisions that your children might know. If you look back on your life and realize that you might some terrible mistakes and influence them in a negative way certainly go apologize for those things. Yes, but don't take the responsibility you called your child to respond or to walk away. Christ, those are my fault. I love you said that because no one is ever past redemption absolutely work and so just going and even humbly writing to your children that you know that you made some estate might be the thing that makes God look really good to them that thing you're sorry. Asking for forgiveness and modeling what a Christian life looks like, even if now they aren't all you talk in the book also about many many other challenges that mothers face and father stood for that matter. But there are those who listing her face and maybe not the children just talked about, but there there facing a lot of challenges with their children. What encouragement do you have for for those parents who are really living under a lot of stress and strain right now and parenting their children like to remind them that motherhood isn't a Sprint it's not even a marathon like one of those endless Ironman triathlon don't know how anybody ever complete that right and one way to endure and motherhood is to just expect that every challenge is going to unfold slowly to remember that God does not work on our timeframe so we have to plan to expect to wait sometime not expecting doing the hardest thing about waiting right, so it's really hard in today's society we have Google at our fingertips 24 seven. If we have a question. If we want something we have free two day shipping. We get what we want when we want it but motherhood is a world of waiting and we must expect to wait and then as we wait.
Practice submitting even the small things that God to his Lordship and will find a lot more contentment and waiting for the answer on that big thing in the second thing that helps us keep persevere is just a focus on the faithfulness of God in the face of great challenges. Ask yourself is God faithful to equip me and accompany me in every challenge I face is God better than everything else. I desire and in the words of that great song by Andrew Peterson. He is God's always faithful so you can make a habit of counting up his faithfulness.
Maybe in stories from the Bible and in your own life your own faith will become steadfast you will persevere because you will know God's faithfulness will to discuss in the book. In terms of our relationship with God is is having a regular quiet time with God. You saying that should be a priority space be to that issue.
A lot of people want to let mom off mom halftime for quiet time right moms can't afford not to do quiet time because humans were made for the presence of God being in the presence of God that produces holiness enough and produces the spiritual fruit that changes how we react to our circumstances or some other daily rhythms that really created mostly with God and how you respond to Monza this I don't have time.
I don't have time for this client. Time is pretty deceptive because client time doesn't usually look quiet for a mom times it looks like coffee and highlighters and snuggled up in your big chair with the fireplace on the more often it's abiding with God throughout your day and tell people abiding is just a fancy church word that means to remain, and we can do this as moms by tying some of our spiritual habits to our daily rhythms. I suggest that moms do things like pray for their kids when they brush 30 practice scripture memory as you walk the dog listened the Bible there so many great Bible apps now as you wash the dishes and we had such a tendency to forget about God write the worries of our day come in and so we need to create rhythms that keep tying us back in the God reminding us that we need to look back to him in these everyday things that we do and I will tell you if you can't make the time. I think you're selling yourself short moms are very capable people they can manage to keep all of their people said for a day get them off to school and activities keep the household running smoothly for themselves and whatever job or ministry, or calling, that is before them that day and I believe that a mom can apply that same kind of industry and creativity to identifying unused spaces to meet with God, so it might not look like that 45 minutes alone doing inductive Bible study, but it doesn't have to be quiet so take some time to figure out some rhythms for how you can incorporate God throughout your day, so that your never missing out on your intimacy with him. Even if the kids get up before you can get your Bible study done. I like the sharing of making the most of your relationship with God consciously thinking of God while you're doing other things brush their teeth, washing dishes, and those going to things that good to me that's a great idea because let's face it, it is time that time sensitive mothering is time sensitive. You can feel I got a lift up Saddam's been in our listing.
The daughter talking to God. So make time to brush her reading that little pocket of time to read your heart on God and the other thing I hear you saying is that a mother's relationship with God is going to greatly impact her relationship with her family and so that needs to be priority. She's walking closely with God through some of these things you're talking about she's going to be a better mother and she's going to be a better wife the best thing you can do for your marriage and for your parenting is to meet with God every day. Healthy relationships with other people flow from first having a healthy relationship with God. So it's absolutely essential so little bit about marriage because marriage also takes time and course in my counseling office am often hearing you know we baby came along and I lost my wife to the baby and I lost my wife. So let's say that you and your spouse have disagreements which I think every single couple does, how do we find that we work through our differences in a marriage, and then don't lose our sense of unity and our sense of your being loved by each other yet math that we have to agree on everything, were not going to agree on everything, because are two very different people. God chose both of us.
Mom and dad to be the parents for that child and we can be united in our common goal of raising godly children raising children who know the Bible who love the Lord and do it very different ways, but it takes humility is a mom who is often maybe the person who is has read more books about parenting rights and read all the studies and she's done all the research so she feels like. I probably know the best way to parent takes humility to really try and encourage moms to take some humility and then take some steps to be united despite their differences, and one step is to just have fun together. You know if you have fun with the person it's a lot easier to get along with the rest of the time think I highly encourage people to do date night.
However, their situation allows. But to make it an actual priority in their lives and the second, encourage women to let their husbands love them.
Now that some kind of funny but as women we can be like you brought me flowers, but I really wanted you to clean the toilet and I know that I told women in their forcing your husband to only speak your love language try to identify and recognize the ways that he is actively loving you don't just assume because he didn't do it my way, that he isn't doing email I'm sure you have the ideal obviously as a speaker. Love language but doesn't any speaks while the others given credit for the place.
Tell people it's great to read books and everything a mentor in your local church can really come alongside you and help you figure out both the nitty-gritty of marriage. Finally, to pray for oneness, both mental and physical because one your mom. It can be hard to feel like you want to physically be with your husband, but part of intimacy and it is essential and so it's okay maybe a little embarrassing at first it's okay to pray that you growing those things and you can come together in unity. Absolute word about the whole area of discipline children related to the little bit earlier but the children to Melissa by rules that his parents will have responsibility to discipline them give us a perspective on that because this is frustrating for a lot of love mothers like never. So I think dealing with disobedience might be the hardest part of parenting because you know that this disobedience is often two things one feels kind of personal bank. It's directed at a rule that we have set up and tried to establish in our home and then it's also perpetual. It's just really repetitive thing they disobeying the same way over and over and we can't figure out why they can't just get it together right but like I children are very slow learners.
We often feel like were kind of in a war against our children that God tells us that we are to love our neighbor and you let the kids in our house are our nearest neighbors in his call to love our neighbors and consider them for is part of our call to parent their children so no I talked about little bit about abiding, that's from John 15, not an accident that in John 15, right after Jesus has been talking about abiding and remaining in him. He also reminds us that this is my commandment that you love one another as I have loved you, so loving her children well is tied to remaining in Jesus and no wonder moms can't afford not to spend time with God. If we really want to love our kids even when their disobedience feels personal, even when it's very perpetual and we have to be abiding in Christ. So this is also helping the child knowledge role helping your child learn how to apologize for role.
That's a huge issue is not absolutely, and I think that they learn to do that from seeing our example. So when we are in a big conflict with their children. It's just inevitable. We are also going to end up sending in that conflict. Maybe we'll get really angry.
Maybe we will get really self focused and or be really prideful about it but I bet that in almost every conflict we have with our children. We were trying to discipline them for some sort of disobedience. We have also committed a sin that we need to ask for forgiveness for so I think that it really helps children to learn healthy reconciliation if they see us in that you know what mommy also made a big mistake here and that's a sin against God and even praying repentance for yourself in front of your children so they can kinda look over your shoulder at your prayer life is huge for setting the example for them to then humble themselves and say maybe I didn't do this right. Maybe I need to sand sorry peel.
Maybe I need to repent towards Scott and the great thing about it too is that if you're having a hard time extending forgiveness to child because of the personal nature of the disobedient, then once you experience the forgiveness of God. It makes it so much easier to extend forgiveness to a fellow center absolutely have long said that there are no healthy relationships without apology and forgiveness for one simple reason. None of us are perfect parents will blow it and then children blow it. But if worry if we teach them how to apologize to forgive a rotation of a huge schedule that's going to help them. The rest of their lives.
This is been a delightful conversation and I know that especially the mothers who been listening for picked up on some ideas and get more ideas.
Of course the book so thanks for being with us today and thanks for taking the time and energy to write this book in the May God continue to bless you here for so great. Thank you. We hope this will encourage with every mom listening. Maybe today's resource would make a great gift to find out more about it@ 5lovelanguages.com title the book again is motherhood without training stressful standards gospel truth by Maggie again notified lovely next. If you have a spouse who is a follower of Jesus. Don't miss a conversation about riding around Jericho coming out in one big thank you to our production team today Janice time Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman's radio in association with publisher ministry and 35 linked thanks