When Faith is Forbidden - Todd Nettleton

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Not licensed in Alaska, Hawaii, Georgia, Massachusetts, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Utah. He's traveled the world to meet and interview hundreds of persecuted Christians, and he'll tell some of their stories today on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. It is quite amazing to land in a country that you've never been to. You feel this bond. You feel this connection. We are connected to brothers and sisters around the world through the body of Christ.

Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Our guest today is Todd Nettleton, host of Voice of the Martyrs Radio, and you're in for a fascinating look at the cost many Christians are paying for simply identifying as followers of Jesus. A featured resource at FiveLoveLanguages.com is Todd's book, When Faith is Forbidden, 40 Days on the Front Lines with Persecuted Christians.

Again, you'll find it at FiveLoveLanguages.com. Gary, you have traveled the world as well, and you've gone into some interesting places. Have you had contact with people who have told stories about persecution? You know, I have heard stories, Chris, in China and in Turkey, particularly, but I've never actually met and interviewed individuals who've been persecuted, and that's why I'm really excited about this book and our interview with Todd, because he has. He sat down with them and heard their stories, and they're pretty, it's just pretty amazing.

So I am really excited about our conversation today. His name is Todd Nettleton, Chief of Media Relations and Message Integration for the Voice of the Martyrs USA and host of the Voice of the Martyrs Radio. He serves as a voice for persecuted Christians, inspiring Christians with the faithfulness of Christ's followers in more than 70 nations. A graduate of Bartlesville Wesleyan College, which is now Oklahoma Wesleyan University. He's done postgraduate study at the University of Oklahoma.

He and his wife Charlotte have two sons and two daughters-in-law. The featured resource again is his book, When Faith is Forbidden, 40 Days on the Front Lines with Persecuted Christians. Find out more at FiveLoveLanguages.com. Well, Todd, welcome to Building Relationships. Thank you so much.

It is great to be with you. Now, you've been involved with Voice of the Martyrs for many years, and almost all of us have heard of that organization. How did you get started doing this work? Well, you know, when people ask me, how did you start at VOM? I point back to 1982.

I believe it was September the 8th of 1982. I was 12 years old, and my family, my parents and my brother and I got on an airplane and we flew to Papua New Guinea where we served. My parents served really as missionaries for four years, so it was as a 12-year-old that I got that first experience of flying halfway around the world, landing in a new place, figuring out a few words of how to say hello and how to find a bathroom, tasting and eating food that looked and smelled and tasted differently from the food I was used to. All of that were the beginning of God planting the seeds into my life that led to me coming to work at Voice of the Martyrs, and now traveling around the world to sit down and talk with Christians who have faced persecution, and then come home and tell their stories, and hopefully inspire the faith of American Christians with the faithfulness of our brothers and sisters around the world.

Well, parents never know how their decisions God uses to impact their children, and I don't know that your parents ever dreamed that you would do what you have done with your life over these last 20 years, but it's really exciting. So, you've gone into these other countries, you've actually sat down and talked to and interviewed these persecuted Christians, and then come back and share their stories. Why is it important for believers to understand the reality of persecution? You know, I think there's two reasons, and I think the first one is a scriptural mandate that says when one part of the body suffers, we're all supposed to feel that. If we have no idea what's going on, if we have no idea what the suffering is, how can we honor that scripture?

How can we feel the pain of people that we're completely disconnected from? So that's the first part of the answer. The second part of the answer has to do with us, and it is, you know, the Bible says that Christians will face persecution. Jesus said, the world hates me, and if you follow me, the world is going to hate you too. We as American Christians don't experience that very often, but that could be changing, so if it's changing and if we're going to experience it more and more, how can we prepare for that? Well, I think the best way, other than the scripture, is to look at the stories of people who have endured persecution.

They have been victorious in the midst of that. They've even been able to love and forgive their persecutors. How better to prepare ourselves for any persecution that we may face than by looking at the stories of those who've already been there and have the stories to tell and can prove God is faithful even in the midst of persecution? So I think that's a second reason why these stories are so powerful and why they're so important is because they prepare us to face hardship in our own lives. Well, you know, I've read some of these stories from your book, and what you're saying is exactly right. I mean, you just, you hear there, you can almost see them and feel, you know, the things they're expressing and the fact that so many of them are so positive in terms of trusting God, you know, through all of this.

It's just powerful. And I think you're right, you know, you mentioned that in America we talk about persecution sometimes, but it's typically in a very different way from the kind of persecution of the people that you've been interviewing. What is your definition of persecution? You know, I think persecution is when someone suffers at the hands of another because of their decision to follow Christ, and it looks different in different places, and I think you could say there are different levels of persecution. There are places in the world, I think of Cuba, where maybe the pastor's daughter goes to school in Cuba and she gets straight A's all the way through up through high school, and when it comes to graduation day they say, you know what, your dad is a pastor, he's a political enemy, we're not going to give you a diploma, even though you've worked hard, even though you've earned it, you're not going to get a diploma. Certainly that's persecution, but that's different from someone who's being maybe shot and killed because they have a gun to their head and they say, are you a Christian or a Muslim? And they say, I'm a Christian, and they get killed. That's also persecution.

So it's hardship at the hands of another because of faith, but like I say, there are certainly levels of persecution, and some I think is more harsh than others. Yeah, yeah. Well now, you've traveled the world. Give us a bird's eye view of the kind of places you've been to through these 20 years. Well, I have had the amazing privilege to travel a lot of places in, you know, from Central Asia and Nepal and India to China and other places, and one of the amazing things that happens as I travel is I get a better understanding of the family of God, and it is quite amazing to land in a country that you've never been to, and you're among people who look very different from you and people who speak a different language from you, and yet you sit down with a brother or a sister in Christ, and maybe it's through a translator, maybe it's through kind of half sign language, but in 10 or 15 minutes, you feel this bond, you feel this connection, and it's the body of Christ. It's, hey, Christ is in me, Christ is in you. We are truly brothers and sisters, even though, you know, we don't speak the same language, we don't look like each other, we are connected as a part of the family of God.

I think that's the greatest blessing of my travel is just to have that broad experience and broad understanding that we are connected to brothers and sisters around the world through the body of Christ. Well, Todd, let me turn the question around a little, but when you talk with these persecuted Christians, what do they say about American believers? What is their concept of what's on their heart for the church here in America? You know, they have different impressions of the American church. One of the impressions that I have been surprised by is just the access to Bibles that we have. You know, in some restricted or hostile nations, if you said, you know, every member of our church has a copy of the Bible, and not just one, but every member of their family has their own copy of the Bible, and not just that, but if they pull out their phones out of their pockets, they have like nine or ten different translations of the Bible on their phone in their pocket all the time. That just, for some people, that just blows their mind. They're like, wait a minute, everyone in your church has their own Bible? How did you do that?

You're so lucky, you're so blessed. So that's one aspect of what they think. They understand, though, that there are challenges for us too, and I'll never forget talking to a pastor in China, a pastor who has since gone on to heaven but had spent more than 20 years in prison, and he said in the course of our conversation, he said, you know, in China Satan uses persecution against the church. In America, Satan uses prosperity against the church. It's a different part of Satan's toolbox, but the purpose is the same. It's to distract the church.

It's to stop the church from growing. It's just a different challenge, and so I think often Christians in hostile and restricted nations pray for American Christians. They know that we can be a blessing to them.

They know we have access to many blessings, and they pray for us to stand strong in our faith in spite of the temptations, in spite of the tools that Satan has in his toolbox to use against the American church, even without persecution. Yeah, now you go into these other countries and you're talking with nationals who have been persecuted, sometimes been in jail, sometimes been shot. How do you get access to these people? Why are they willing to talk to you and to trust you to share their story? Well, I come in on the coattails of our international ministry staff that are active in more than 70 countries around the world, so I have the blessing and the advantage of Voice of the Martyrs' 50-plus years of ministry service and the fact that we have developed contacts in that country, in the church, with church leaders and with others.

So by the time I get to them, they have a little bit of an understanding of who I am and who VOM is, which is why they're willing to share their story, and they typically will have the blessing of their leader, whether it's their pastor or someone above their pastor in their church group who says, hey, these are good people, you should talk to them. And so I am very much dependent as I travel on our international ministry staff that set up those relationships and maintain those relationships and know the right people and know how to open the right doors and know how to keep me out of trouble when I'm in a hostile or restrictive nation. Yes, which is important for sure. Very important.

Yeah. Now when you sit down with these people who have been, say, just released from jail or prison, sometimes for extended times, or they have suffered a shot or that sort of thing, how have you just generally found them responding to this? One of the amazing things, and I think back to one of my first trips for VOM, we went to China and we were going to meet a pastor who had been imprisoned something like 11 or 12 times in the last three months. What happened was he led a house church on Tuesdays, the church was growing, they actually had outgrown the house where they were meeting, there were people sitting outside in the streets, so it was hard to hide what they were doing.

And the Communist government there got very frustrated by this church, and so they started arresting this pastor basically every Tuesday morning, and they would hold him all day Tuesday or even overnight into Wednesday, and then they'd release him, and the next week they'd do the same thing, just so he couldn't lead that one particular church on Tuesdays. And so as we went to meet with him, he had been arrested all these times, and the picture I had in my mind was, boy it is sure great that we can come from America and encourage this poor, downtrodden, persecuted pastor in China. Isn't it a blessing for him that we get to come and do this for him?

And when we got there, it was kind of completely the opposite. He didn't really need us to come and encourage him. He was very much encouraged, hey, look at how fast the church is growing, look what God is doing in our community, look how many people are coming to faith in Christ. It wasn't a big bother to him that he was getting arrested every week, it was a joyful thing that God was at work. And I remember in the course of our conversation, we were drinking tea together, and I turned to his wife and I said, don't you worry about him. I mean, he's getting arrested every week, aren't you worried about him? And she kind of looked at me funny and said, well, why would I need to worry about him? God got in control.

Why would I worry? Because I know God is in control of the situation. And so I learned very quickly that they're not intimidated, and they're not usually overly stressed about what's happening to them. I mention in the book, I include in the book some comments from my journal over the times of my travel, and one of the journal entries is like, we're having such a hard time getting them to talk about their suffering and talk about prison because they don't think it's remarkable. They just think it's part of following Jesus Christ. So, you know, when we come in and ask about, well, tell me about the prison and tell me how hard it was, they're just like, well, that's just part of walking with Jesus.

That's not that big a deal. Why do you need to hear that story? So there is a sense of joy, there is a sense of excitement about what God is doing, and there is really a sense of privilege that I get to be a part of Christ's kingdom.

I get to be active in his work. And I think of the story in Acts chapter 5 of the apostles were taken before the Sanhedrin, they questioned them, then they were beaten and released, and it says they left the council rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer for the name of Christ. That same sense of rejoicing, that same sense of excitement is present in our persecutor brothers and sisters today in nations around the world, as was present with the apostles that day in Jerusalem. Yeah, you know, as you were telling that story, that's what came to my mind. I was thinking, that sounds a lot like the Bible.

Yep, it's still true today. Now, you've probably had a lot of interesting experiences in your travels, in addition to the interviews. What's one of the most remarkable places that you've stayed or you've been to that just kind of stands out in your mind? One of the most remarkable, sounds like a positive word, this was more on the negative end of the spectrum, but we stayed in a hotel in Central Asia, and I think we were on the eighth floor, and the elevator ride took about 10 minutes. So like, I thought the elevator was stuck, and I didn't know if we were ever going to get out of there. And then when we got up to the room, there was no running water, there was no seat on the toilet, there was no toilet paper, and there was, the electricity was kind of intermittent.

It would come on for a while, and then it would go off for a longer while. So that was one of the remarkably bad places that I have seen. But, you know, it's easy for me to complain as a very comfortable American Christian, but I have been humbled so many times by the hospitality of our brothers and sisters that we go to see. I'll never forget sitting in a grass, literally a grass hut in Ethiopia with a former Muslim who was now a pastor, and we looked up and there were holes in the grass roof because his neighbors had taken to throwing stones at his house to try to convince him to come back to Islam. And they pulled out bottles of orange soda and served us orange soda. And I just thought, what an amazing thing that out of their nothing, they would take energy and money and time to buy an orange soda for me to come and just to share fellowship. And when they offered, I just thought, what a sacred orange soda that is that my brother and my sister in Ethiopia have sacrificed in order to be able to serve this to me.

And I just thought, what a sacred privilege it is to sit down and drink an orange soda with these amazing saints of God. Now I know you've been in and out of a lot of airports, in and out, on and off of a lot of airplanes. This may not be real spiritual, but give us an airport story or an airplane story or both.

Well, I remember checking into an airport in Central Asia and literally the check-in counter was a lady sitting outside at a card table, like a fold-up card table. We showed her our itineraries and she gave us a boarding pass and off we went. And when we got on the plane, it was a really old plane. It had kind of avocado green decorations, so you knew it had been around a while and I could smell gas. And I thought, you know, I don't think that's good when you're on the plane and you could smell gas. And then I was in the exit row. And as we went down the runway, I could hear air flowing, like air was flowing in and out of that window in the exit row.

And I thought, well, the door's not sealed very well. And we asked the stewardess lady and she said, oh no, it's fine, it's good, we're all good. So I prayed very fervently. That flight was very good for my prayer life. I prayed very fervently that entire ride. Thankfully, we landed safely in the place where we were going. When we got there, they announced over the speaker, they said, now you who are in the front of the plane, you stay in your seats and we're going to get the people in the back of the plane out first.

And I thought, well, that's interesting. They don't usually do that. Well, my host explained to me that what they had explained in Russian was if the people in the front get out first, then there's too much weight in the back of the plane and it'll tip up on its tail. And that would damage the plane. That's why they wanted the people in the front to stay put and let the people in the back get out first so that the plane doesn't tip up. So like I say, when I got off that plane, I was very, very, I didn't actually kneel down and kiss the ground, but I felt like kneeling down and kissing the ground because I was very thankful.

Oh, well, when you do the kind of work you do and go in the places you go, I'm sure that's the kind of thing that periodically is going to happen. Now, you've shared 40 amazing stories of persecuted Christians in your new book, When Faith is Forbidden. And were there common themes that came from those stories that helped them persevere?

I think two, and I think one we've already talked about is joy, just the sense of excitement and the sense of anticipation of seeing what God is going to do. The second theme that comes through again and again in these stories is forgiveness and the supernatural ability of our persecuted brothers and sisters to forgive their persecutors. I think I tell in the book the story of going to meet the families of three men who were martyred in Turkey. And two of the men were married. One of the men was engaged. I actually met both of the widows. I met the fiance of the third man.

It's just really an amazing trip. But the day after the killings, the two widows were on national television in Turkey, and they forgave the men who had killed their husbands on national TV. In fact, one of them echoed the words of Christ on the cross, Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing. A Muslim journalist, a Turkish Muslim journalist, said of those two women that they had done more for Christianity in Turkey by forgiving those men on national TV.

They had done more for Christianity in Turkey than a thousand missionaries could have done in a thousand years. Just with that simple act of forgiveness. And so I think that is another theme that goes through these stories. There's no human explanation for that. It has to be the reality of Christ. It has to be the reality of the Holy Spirit empowering us to forgive. And as the persecutors look on and see that, they know there's no human explanation. They know it doesn't make any sense. So it has to be God must be real, because how can this person that you're beating, how can they show love to you?

How can they forgive you? They can't, unless God is real, unless their message is true. So it's an amazing witness for Christ. And that's one of the other themes that comes through, is just that theme of the persecuted forgiving and even loving their persecutors. You know, Todd, it reminds me of the story that Corrie Ten Boom talked about her years after the Holocaust and all that her family had gone through of hiding Jewish people and then being sent to the camps. She's speaking and then this German guard comes up to her and wants to know, you know, is what you're saying really true?

Can somebody like me be forgiven? And she is faced with that question of having to, you know, to look at her persecutor and all that had happened to her family. And it's a costly thing to do that. I mean, you know, Corrie Ten Boom knew, she knew what it had cost her family. She knew their suffering and yet to be able to do that, the founder of the Voice of the Martyrs, Richard and Sabina Wormbrand.

Sabina had a similar experience. Her family also, they came both from Jewish families and her family died in the camps as well. And she had that opportunity to encounter one of the guards who had been at the very camp where her family was killed. And to say, I forgive you. And actually, she cooked a meal for her.

She served a meal to the man who had been the guard at the camp where her family died. That doesn't make any sense from a human perspective. It doesn't even register with us.

How could that be? The only way it could be is God is real and God empowers someone to do that. You know, I think you're right, Todd. By nature, we want to demand justice and we fight for justice. And certainly there's a place for standing for justice, no question about that. And God is a just God. But he's also a merciful God. And he's also a forgiving God. That's why we're here today. Or not for his forgiveness of us.

We wouldn't even be talking today. So yeah, it's a supernatural thing. Thanks for joining us today for Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . You can find out more about your love language or our featured resource by going to Five Love Languages dot com. You can listen to the stream or download the podcast right there and link to the book by Todd Nettleton, a voice of the martyrs radio. It's titled When Faith is Forbidden, 40 days on the front lines with persecuted Christians.

Just go to Five Love Languages dot com. Todd, what's your hope for our listeners today and for readers who read this book and go on this 40-day journey with you as you interview these persecuted Christians? What would you like to see happen as people take this journey? You know, I think my encounters and my conversations with persecuted Christians have changed me. They've changed the way I think about faith. They've changed the way I think about what it means to follow Christ.

That's my hope for the reader as well. And I honestly believe that there's no way to avoid it if you spend 40 days conversing with persecuted Christians, hearing their stories, hearing their hearts. I think on day 41 your faith will look different. I don't think you can avoid that because you have seen sacrifice. You have seen forgiveness. You've seen a passion for sharing the gospel with people.

And that starts to rub off on us. And I think that's a good thing. That's a great thing for us to see the stories, hear the stories of these persecuted Christians and be impacted by their testimonies.

Yeah. And you know, I think we, at least those of us here in America, would never hear such stories if someone like you did not go and interview those people and come back and share those stories. So, you know, I think you're doing a great service to the Christian church here in America. Now there's a story about a man named Iman in Iran who describes his persecution as, quote, the sweetest time of his life. Tell us about him.

I love the story of Iman. When I first met him, so I'm sitting down to interview him, and the first thing he did was pray. And I've not had that experience. He said, before we talk, I want to pray.

I'm like, okay. And what he explained through the translator is I did a lot of bad stuff in my life before Christ. And I don't want to give Satan even a crack by remembering that stuff. So I'm going to pray that God will only bring back the stuff that you need to hear and that I need to share with you. So he prayed before he started sharing his testimony. And then the first thing he said, he said, now, I want you to understand I'm a very competitive person.

He said, when I was in the Iranian military and we were fighting the Iran-Iraq war, I told my commander, you send me to the hardest place where the fighting is the fiercest, the place where I can be martyred for my country in the next 24 hours. And he said, when I was a drug addict, I wanted to use every single drug that you could ever use. And I wanted to use more of every drug than anyone else was using. And he said, when I was a thief, I wanted to steal more than anyone else stole.

And if someone else tried to steal something and failed, I wanted to go and steal that thing just to prove that I was a better thief than them. So that that's how he started sharing his story. And then he shared how he came to Christ and God rescued him miraculously from drug addiction. And Iman's competitive fire turned to, well, if I'm going to be a disciple of Christ, I'm going to be the best disciple that I can possibly be. And if I'm going to be an evangelist, then I'm going to share Christ with every single person that I talk to.

And that's what he does. And in the course of doing that inside the Islamic Republic of Iran, he ended up in prison. And for 20 plus days, he was actually in solitary confinement, although he told me I was not alone. Christ was with me in that cell. Then he was transferred to a cell with a hundred other inmates. And he, over the course of the next days, shared Christ with all 100 of those inmates and 24 of them prayed with him to receive Christ. So then he got released from prison and he sent in his regular monthly ministry report to his elders in the house church there in Iran. And his ministry report just said, I shared Christ with a hundred people that month, 24 people prayed with me to receive Christ. And it was several weeks later that his leaders realized that he had been arrested. He had been in prison that whole month. And they were like, Iman, why didn't you mention in your report that you were in jail?

And Iman was just like, why does that matter? The important thing is I shared Christ with a hundred people and 24 of them prayed to receive Christ with me. They're walking in salvation now.

Why does it matter whether that was in jail or out of jail? That's not the important part of the story. The important part of the story is a hundred people heard the gospel and 24 people got saved. That is his attitude. That is his fire to share the gospel. And he genuinely believes it. And he told me, if I encounter a person, even if I just bump into them at the supermarket, I assume that the Holy Spirit has prepared them to hear the gospel because otherwise why would he have brought them into my path? And so every single person that Iman meets, he believes the Holy Spirit has divinely prepared them to hear the message of the gospel. And he is ready and willing to share that message with them.

That's his fire to be the best evangelist that he could possibly be. Wow. Wow. What if every believer in our country had that mindset?

Wow. Oh, well, take us to China and the story of Sister Tong. Sister Tong is one of my favorite stories, and it was early on in my time at Voice of the Martyrs and really changed how I think about suffering because we went to meet with Sister Tong. Actually, my wife was able to travel with me on this trip and she had just been released after six months in prison for hosting a house church in her home. So the police raided the house church meeting, they kicked everyone else out, but because it was her house, because she was the host, they arrested her and put her in prison for six months.

And so we sat down with her and I know I'm going to come back to America. I'm going to share Sister Tong's story in radio interviews. I'm going to probably write it up for the Voice of the Martyrs magazine. If we're going to tell a story, what do we need first? We need to kind of set the scene. And so I say, Sister Tong, tell me about the prison.

And the translator translates my question to Sister Tong. And what I'm thinking is, you know, I want you to tell me how miserable it was in prison. How hard was the bed? How cold was it?

How big were the rats? I need to paint a picture for people of how terrible prison was for you. And Sister Tong got what I would call a heavenly smile on her face. And she said something in Chinese and the translator said, oh, yes, that was a wonderful time. And I looked at the translator because I thought there has to have been a disconnect because I'm pretty sure I asked her about prison and no one would ever describe prison as a wonderful time. So I asked the translator, I said, you know, Mr. Translator, are you sure you understood my question? And he looked at me and he smiled and he said, yes, I understood your question.

Yes, that's what I asked her. And yes, she said it was a wonderful time. And Sister Tong went on to say, Jesus was so close to me in that prison cell.

He, I mean, he was so close. And so he ministered to me in such a personal way. It was a precious, special time with Jesus while I was in prison.

And she said, you know what else? There were other ladies in my cell. And when I got there, they did not know Jesus. And I got to have the privilege of introducing them to Jesus and they got saved and they're walking with Christ now. So during that six months in prison, I had the amazing, personal, special presence of Christ with me. And I had an opportunity to minister.

What else would I need? Why would that not be a wonderful time? And I ask in the book, as I tell the story of the book, I ask readers, and this is convicting to me, what else in our lives, if six months in a Chinese prison can be a wonderful time, what is there in my life and in your life that if we would look through the right mindset, if we would see through our spiritual eyes, might be a wonderful time that we don't acknowledge right now? Is it possible that sickness could be a wonderful time if we experience the presence of Christ and if we had ministry in the midst of it? Is it possible that unemployment could be a wonderful time if we experience the presence of Christ and if we had ministry in the midst of it?

What is it in our lives that we could see as a wonderful time if we just had that mindset and if we had our eyes open spiritually to see? That's the lesson that Sister Tong taught me and I have never forgotten it. Well, that's powerful. Well, talking about China, we hear a lot about Chinese persecution through the years and also that the church in China is continuing to grow and thrive.

So you've been there firsthand. Is that true? Is what we hear about the Christians in China in terms of the church growing and all of that, is that true from your perspective? The church in China is certainly growing. They are facing increasing, and even in the last two years, dramatically increased persecution coming from the communist government that wants to control the hearts and minds of the people. They want you to be a good communist first, and whatever else you are in your life comes after being a good communist.

Well, as Christians we say I'm a Christian first and everything else comes after my loyalty to Jesus Christ. That is seen as a direct threat by the communist party and by the leaders there, and so they are cracking down against the church and the level of technology that they have involved in this crackdown is I think one of the things that makes it scary. There is talk that by the end of this year there will be 600 million facial recognition cameras in China. Basically everywhere you go in China there are facial recognition cameras that are watching you. The goal of the Chinese government is to be able to identify and locate any person on Chinese soil in three seconds.

So if you're trying to make a secret delivery of Bibles, if you're trying to gather together with other believers, how do you do that? When the government is watching everything you do, how do you do that when the facial recognition cameras can identify you everywhere you go? Now here's the good side of that story or the attitude of our brothers and sisters in China. I interviewed a pastor of a house church in China and he said he challenges the men in his church, in particular the men. He says, listen, the government is watching you.

We know that. So just make sure that what they see is a witness for Christ. Make sure what they see is what it looks like to be a bold, sold-out follower of Jesus Christ.

They are watching. So if you have an opportunity to be a witness through that, make sure you take advantage of it. That's the attitude of our Christian brothers and sisters in China. Yes, the government is opposed to us.

Yes, the government is watching. That is not going to stop the move of the Holy Spirit. It is not going to stop the church from advancing in China. Todd, as I'm listening, I'm filtering what you're saying in these stories through my perspective, and we don't have that kind of persecution here. You mentioned a little earlier, maybe it's coming and how will I handle it if it does? I think that's part of what you're talking about here, right?

It absolutely is. You know, I think every time you read a story of a persecuted Christian, the natural response is to ask, okay, what would I do in that situation? If they came to arrest me, what would I do? If they killed one of my family members, how would I respond?

And so that's a great question to ask, because I think a couple things happen. I think we have to go to the Lord and say, Lord, you know, I know what the right answer is. I know what the answer is that I want to give. I want to say, well, of course, I would stand boldly. I would preach on the street corners. I don't care if they arrest me, but Lord, I'm not sure I can give that answer honestly. So please help me, help me to grow stronger, help me to deepen my faith so that if and when that day comes, I will be ready. The other thing is it draws truths out of these brothers and sisters story, and I've tried at the end of each day's reading in this book to kind of bring home to an American audience, because I'm an American Christian. I've never been arrested for my faith.

I've never had a gun put to my head. I've never been beaten up for following Christ. Yet I think there are lessons, and I think there are truths that affect me and that inspire me. And so I've tried in each day's reading to kind of bring it home for an American reader or a Western or free nation reader to say, okay, what are some truths from this person's story that I can learn? Truths about forgiveness, truths about having a passion to share Christ with the people around me, truths about living by faith on a daily basis, even in a country where I am quite comfortable and where I have a steady paycheck. How do I develop a reliance on Christ so that it affects me every day to say, Lord, I need your help today. I need you to step in today and walk with me through this day. So there are definitely lessons that we can learn from our brothers and sisters that apply to us, even if we're not directly facing persecution right at this moment.

Yeah, and I think that's my prayer that our listeners and those who read this book are going to sense that. Now, you kept a personal journal while you were making all these trips that kind of helped you process your own emotions as you were dealing with each of these, and some of those, at least portions of those journals you actually have in the book, and I enjoyed seeing those. But that did help you personally, did it not, in terms of processing your emotions as you worked through all of this? It certainly helped me as I was processing the trip. It also served, and very frankly, it's a gift to my wife because she can't always go with me. And so keeping that journal and bringing that back and offering that to her is a way for us to kind of experience the trip together and process the trip together. The other thing that, and you'll see this as you read some of the excerpts in the book, is I am often the least spiritual person in the room. And so there are places in the journal where I am, you know, complaining about the hotels or complaining about the squatty potties or very anxious to get home.

I need a hamburger as soon as possible. And so some of that comes through in the journals as well, and I'm reminded of that, and I'm kind of humbled by that. But I also want to make sure that people, as they read this book, they know that there are heroes in this book, but Todd Middleton is not one of the heroes.

Now, there are some who have paid the ultimate price, that is, they've lost their lives and they're Christian martyrs, and you deal with some of those in the book. How did you find out about these stories? You know, it depends on the story. In some cases, I think of the three men who were killed in Turkey. It literally was international news that week. And so the world, the entire world read those stories. But then to be able to make the connection and be able to go and sit down with the widows and hear those firsthand stories, that comes because of the work of our international ministries team. It comes because of that 50 years of experience and 50 years worth of contacts in that country. People in the church, people who can help you make connections, can help make introductions and allow you that privilege to be able to sit down.

And honestly, it's the work of the Holy Spirit as well. I tell the story of one of the widows in Turkey. I had arranged to meet with her, and that morning, as my host called to kind of make the final arrangement, she said, you know what? I'm just too tired. It's not going to work out today.

And my spirit kind of fell because I was like, hey, I've come 8,000 miles. You know, what's going on? Lord, couldn't you make this meeting happen? And within about half an hour, my host and I actually went out to breakfast. And at the end of our breakfast together, his phone rang and it was her. And she said, why don't you come for half an hour?

Let's, we'll see. And so we went, we drove about an hour to get to where she was. And it turned out not to be a half an hour. It turned out to be about eight hours together. We had a couple meals. I got to meet her kids. We got to hear her story. She opened the Bible and shared the parts of the scripture that had encouraged her. And I just credit the Holy Spirit with making that connection. And somehow, some way she felt like, you know what?

I'm not that tired. And then once we got together, I think she could sense that my heart was to minister to her and to share her story in an honest and in a fair way, but a way that glorifies God. And she wanted God to be glorified, even in the midst of that terrible, terrible loss. Yeah, yeah.

Now you travel in many, many countries. Is it your opinion that persecution is on the rise? And what are some of the most dangerous places in the world today for Christians? You know, I think persecution is on the rise.

But I think that is also a good news story, if I can say it that way. Part of the reason persecution is on the rise is because the Church is growing in these countries. There are more Christians, there are more people coming to follow Christ, and so there are more potential targets of persecution. There's simply more believers, so there can be more believers that get arrested or more believers that get beaten. So yes, persecution is on the rise.

And yes, that's also good news, because it's a representation of how the Church is growing. When you talk about the most difficult places, I think you have to mention North Korea. North Korea, the description I use is North Korea is a prison camp disguised as a country, and everyone in North Korea is oppressed, but Christians are singled out for the very worst oppression.

And the reason for that is very simple. Christianity is a direct threat to the Kim regime. The Kim regime says the Kim family members are divine beings. Kindergarteners are taught when they sit down to a meal to say, thank you, Father Kim Il-sung, for our food. And so when you come in and say, I'm a follower of Jesus Christ, it's not just a matter of, well, hey, we don't believe that here, or even, hey, that's a Western religion, that's the CIA trying to undermine our country.

It is a direct threat to the national government of North Korea. It is treason to say that Jesus is Lord. That's why the persecution there is so intense, because the government understands Christianity is a direct threat to our reign in this country.

Todd, hearing these stories and reading these stories, some of which I've read, it's deeply moving. How can we, and when I say we, I mean Christians here in America, how can we come alongside and serve our persecuted brothers and sisters? I love to encourage people to take a three-step process in answering that question. Step number one is to pray for persecuted Christians. Commit to pray for persecuted Christians.

And that's not me talking. That is their first request of us. Pray for us. Pray for us.

Pray for us. So step number one is pray. Step number two, then, is to educate yourself so that you can pray more effectively, because it's easy to say, God bless persecuted Christians.

But I think it's also easy to forget to say that, because it's not very connected, it's not very personal. But as you educate yourself, it becomes, God bless Pastor Wang Yi, who is serving a nine-year prison sentence in China, bless his family, bless his son Joshua, give him courage today to endure what he is going through. So number one, pray. Number two, educate yourself so that you can pray more personally and more passionately and more knowledgeably for persecuted Christians around the world. And then step three is whatever God lays on your heart to do, because as you're praying and as you're learning more, God's going to open some doors and say, hey, I want you to write letters to Christians who are in prison. Hey, I want you to sponsor Bibles to be delivered into that country.

Hey, I want you to get on an airplane and go to one of these countries. But all of that grows out of our prayers and out of our learning more so that we can pray better. Then God lays on our hearts and says, this is what I want you to do. And then it's up to us to be obedient to what he's calling us to do.

Yeah. Well, Todd, I want to thank you for being on the program today and for writing this book and all that you did to be able to write this book by taking time and energy and going around the world doing this. And I know that our listeners and I know that many of them are going to read this book and God's going to use it to motivate them to pray and then participate in other ways. So thanks for being with us today.

You are so welcome. And I'm excited about how these stories are going to impact readers. And may we all be more bold for Jesus Christ as we're inspired by the examples of our persecuted brothers and sisters. It's been great to hear the heart of Todd Nettleton today. If you'd like more information about that book, go to FiveLoveLanguages.com When Faith is Forbidden, 40 days on the front lines with persecuted Christians. And Todd's website, if you want to find out more, is simply persecution.com.

Persecution.com. And next week, we open the phone lines and take your questions and comments for our April Dear Gary broadcast. And you can call with your relationship question right now at 1-866-424-GARY.

Marriage, parenting, dating, workplace, or love language question. Call 1-866-424-GARY and leave your message. A big thank you today to our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Todd. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.