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Lead Me

Building Relationships / Dr. Gary Chapman
The Truth Network Radio
June 20, 2020 8:03 am

Lead Me

Building Relationships / Dr. Gary Chapman

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June 20, 2020 8:03 am

​If you feel like you're walking a tightrope as a father—juggling work and family responsibilities, don't miss the Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman. Former lead singer with Sanctus Real. Matt Hammit recognized the increasing conflict between his wife and children and his career pursuits. Hear about the difficult choices he made on the next Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman.

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He sang the song hundreds of times in concert, then decided he had to make a hard choice between his work and his family.

I wrote so hard not the way I want to live the way God is calling me to be there for my family leader. I realize like my just going to sing the song or map should welcome building relationship.

Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller the LeBlanc today Grammy nominated singer and former front man, Sanctus real challenges mental their families well. Matt Hammond joins us to talk about finding courage to fight for your marriage, your children, your faith, it's gonna be a powerful conversation because Matt is honest struggle but I think many men and we chose in his book as a featured resource because this is Father's Day weekend and this is the heart cry. I think you encouraged your five love you will find Matt's book titled lead "The 5 Love Languages" .com Gary, you did more traveling after your children were grown, but did you ever feel the struggle between ministry and family, Chris.

I think to a certain degree all husbands filled struggle and maybe most wives also feel the struggle about a rebalancing or career and family about your right did do a lot of traveling at all.

When our children were home was on church staff and doing counseling and encountering families were struggling with this very issue. So I got a think that the heart and while the kids were at home I was I was home most the time and not much. Robin started after that. But think it's a common struggle and excited today to be talking to Matt about this topic about this new book.

His name is Matt Hammett, a singer-songwriter, author, speaker, he was the lead singer for the band Sanctus real from 1996 to 2016. That's a lot of years is 13 Dove awards was nominated for two Grammys is part of the family life team at marriage and men's conferences is book is lead me finding courage to fight for your marriage, children, and faith can find out more at welcome to Building Relationships good to be a great thing to have me. So you put your finger on exposed nerve and a lot of man these days are really trying to figure out this whole thing of work and family and how do we balance those to what kind of response. If you receive from your book thus far. Yeah, it's interesting because I feel that the response to the book so far as been similar to the song lead me young man, I really still struggling to lead their families and always feeling attention am I doing enough. How do I do more and then also you know kind of hearing that same echo since the book released from wives. Just saying all men. The things in this book, you know that your wife said to you that is your hearts cry. That's what we want.

We are still hungry for husbands to lead us more than just financially but emotionally and spiritually as well.

Yeah, I think you're exactly right think that all Florida wives identify with this struggle to give us an overview of your life. What did you want to do when you're young and what were your goals.

This gives an overview of all of yes I grew up in church, and my parents. I was actually very fortunate because my parents more people just took us to church three times a week at home, they really lived and modeled for us what it meant to follow Christ. And so I see that honesty is one of the greatest gifts in my life that legacy and sell from a very young age. I just always knew that I wanted to serve the Lord God. It is made enough struggles like everybody else. Of course, but I did. I always can have this heart that I wanted to use whatever dreams got is putting my heart to impact people in an impact culture so you know music came along that I kinda knew right away that that's what I want to do that. So how did you get involved in music and how early did you get involved in music. SMI youth pastor at Cal recently got in Toledo. The church I dropped my whole life Toledo Ohio. My hometown of you know he just kinda started giving me these opportunities he saw my desire to just use my gifts and even as I am her first coming into another youth group is 1/8 grader already.

He was trying to giving opportunity to serve and by the time I was 15.

He put me on stage to lead worship and run the same time I as I want my sophomore year of high school at private Christian school in Toledo. I met a guy named Chris Roman, who was just kind of this that he told I did not look like a rock start all this guy looked like a natural born rock starter memory was sitting up on the table in the cafeteria he was playing wildflowers from Tom Petty and is learning it for a girl and I were thinking.

I did lose way too cool for me but we struck up a friendship started playing together at the chapel band and then start again together on the weekends and met a guy in a different band named Mark Grauman and so me marking Chris over the course of that year, 1996 started the band Sanctus real and we had no idea you know what it would lead to the relief that I would say that's we would've picked a much easier name to it to say after you look on paper. People always wonder how to pronounce it. We would've picked a much different name of the we knew was the last 20 years that let's talk about your wife a bit. Energy meet Sarah.

We're still an independent band in 1999 were just get a high school we were already having united offers from record labels and getting to know some folks in Nashville so we would get his opportunities to play some of these festivals can earlier in the day and I remember being at this festival in Columbus, Ohio third day and audio adrenaline all these bands we loved were playing and we played earlier in the day and that night and while Thursday was playing. I remember just kind of the lights washing over the crowd and I saw this girl cut of the back of the crowd on the fringes just with shoes on overalls and she was barefoot. She was dancing and laughing and never seen her thinking like men. I need more of that in my life I my cousin uptight people pleaser guy and I'm looking at this totally like carefree person you know and then I want to say something I didn't say anything but crazy enough the next morning, three hours north. We let a worship set for a communitywide church service, and her grandmother's church and her mother's church were involved in it and she had driven back up to Toledo from Columbus just like we had the night before and was there at the event and I saw her again and I thought I I'm not Colette this past so that was in 1999 when we first met and immediately knew had some special providential yes absolutely.

Now did she realize what she was signing up for this older road lifestyle.

Well, you know, when we were young at that time we were at the local band so we didn't have a record deal. Yeah, we were playing a local shows. We still somewhat of a normal life. You know, we were working jobs and try to make ends meet. That way, unsure of what would happen with the band but in 2001 when everything changed because not only did we get married in 2001, but in the fall 2001. Right after our wedding we went on the road as assigned band. You know the real record in the very first time on a real tour and and and I don't think either one of us were really prepared for the challenges of of road life.

No, well, I can only imagine now understand it really run after your honeymoon you jump to Nevaeh and with the with the band and took off yeah how about go forth her. Yeah so that that's you know that with the real challenges of road live coming.

That's that's where that's what really got nitty-gritty it was one of those experiences where I think both of us were were having the time of our lives. On one hand so you know, in one way would like to see Mount Rushmore were walking the streets of Boston were out in California for the first time seeing the redwoods and all these amazing things that we you know were just we are so in all of these experiences, so there were these highs that were very romantic and very fun at the same time you know in between those experiences were stuck in a van with four other guys were sleeping in the van. A lot of times because were totally broken were having to drive to the next show to make it to the next city overnight sometimes and then it also there'sfor us were either added church performing our at a festival performing or you know were in the van driving to the next place there's no room or space for us to fight. We need serious conversations and there is certainlyfor us to have the freedom to learn you know how to be intimate with each other in his new marriage so you can imagine, we felt there it was like a pressure cooker at times and all that stuff wouldst do.

And sometimes when the moment you know came came upon is that that pressure would would would come out right. Having that would be doing it would lead to conflict was very difficult for us special in those early years, hard to have a fight with her for the guys in the van right that's right you. There's a lot that needed to be said and hashed out in a healthy environment that we just didn't have the environment for the practical question for you Matt, what about the gear.

Did you have did you pull something behind you like a trailer. Oh yeah, we actually yeah we did. We had a trailer weight of van and a trailer and so you know it's we had space in the van to sleep and whatnot are that you know rest. We exit 1 point try to build our own bunks in the back of the conversion van to give us a little bit of of the feeling of privacy.

But that was just a faade. Talk about the song were to come from. Yeah so the song lead me in a wasn't just a song written in a writers room or you know some guys thinking he was the next song arrived, it was it was one of those really deeply guttural life experience songs, it just kinda pours out of you and the day that I wrote that song my wife Sarah sat me down in our dining room and we set across each other.

The table and I just am never forget the look on her face because she was so broken by this hunger inside of her. This need inside of her that she just felt like Amber say the words to me that your you're here, you're not here and she just so desperately wanted to you know live out this dream of life together that we we had idealized and of course the young newlyweds of course you have. Maybe some unreal realistic expectations that you're working out, and there also some realistic needs as well.

Some fundamental needs that I needed to hear about in her heart and so you know it's easy to become defensive, especially near a cycle of broken conflict and communication which we were, but that day God gave me the grace to really hear her heart and hear the words that she was saying to me and then right now just hear them to receive them into my heart and when she was done talking to me and sharing the things that she needed to say. I turned and I actually looked at the pictures sitting next to me of our wedding day and that's what my heart really felt broken because the contrast between the woman I saw in that wedding photo of this glowing countenance of joy and hope for the future and then compared to this woman who was sitting in front of me only seven years later he looked completely broken and crushed in spirit that contrast Mendez hit me so hard and I just knew that for whatever part of that was my fault as the leader in this relationship. I need to take responsibility for that. And God really spoke to that day about my good intentions, you know, it really kinda stirred up in me. This this reality that I had really been living according to these good intentions, and I need a real change. I picked up my guitar and that was the day I wrote the first draft of lead me while well how long was this process of your struggling with what you are hearing what you're feeling before you finally came to the place where you decide to leave the band well you know I write about it in detail in the book, but in short, lead me is a is an irony in my life because the song that I had written to that was a sincere representation of Sarah's heart cry and a sincere representation of me wanted to be a man that would step up to the plate and really be the man that got a call me to be and be the husband that she needs. For me, and that the father of my kids that their present every day that saw about being there for my family. The success of it actually took me away from my family more and so there was kind of this long process of me realizing like I wrote the song was sincere. Harb I'm not living up to what I have said I want the war the way I want to live the way God is calling me to be there for my family as the leader, and I came to a place where I realize like my just going to sing this song or Max are going to live it and through a series of events God just continued to speak back to me through the words of that song you know that so many other people kind of took for themselves.

When you sing on stage is easy to like watch everybody else received that song as if the words are meant for them. But those words were meant for me as well and as those words spoke back to me over the course of a few years.

I knew that this restlessness is tension I had felt between work, dreams and career dreams and and not knowing how to resolve that I knew that that restlessness in my spirit had turned to a release so as sure as I was restless.

That's how sure I was that I was released and I really felt like I was speaking to me time he that it was time to sing, leave me a lesson little more children to do have.

By this point, yes.

At that point we had well you know what that at the point relieved me. We had had our two girls. We didn't know was there was about to be pregnant, you know, the third and then you know once a song came out. We had our third baby side three. The time when Leamy relays are taken off in a couple years later we had 1/4 so it wasn't long before we had with four little ones at home within two years of each other so is an extremely crucial time for family will so, do you remember when you finally made the decision to break with the plan. I do yeah I arouse Lena my bunk at the end of a long weekend on the tour bus and I could hear everybody on the front lounge. You talk and laugh and then I was just in the quietness of my own space back there just really heartbroken because I was torn between this this dream that you know I I lived for almost 20 years that point and just knowing that it was time to say goodbye, but wanting to keep 1 foot in the boat and wanting to kinda dip mother toe in the water, but I really knew that the Lord was calling me to give myself fully to putting my family first and using my might. Creative gifts in a context that was healthy for for our family and so I just revelers speaking to me that that give me a certainty that he was calling me out in one of my biggest fears in this whole thing was like okay got them enough if I leave, what about the other guys what about all the people that my life will affect on the singer. The span of the songwriter up in the face of it. The other so many different areas that I fell I carry this weight of responsibility and will happen to them and I felt just in the stillness of my spirit, God speak to me and say I do think you're the only child of mine that I love realizing that moment like I'm making this all about me. This is not just about me got his call me to this night is for me but for the sake of all of us to be hard. How did you tell the band and then humbly respond yes. So I wrote the guys a letter to kind of set the table for the discussion and no really, I knew that to heart conversation, I wanted to really articulate my heart and it in my love for them. More than anything I wanted to honor those guys for all they put in that we don't together and so I wrote a letter but to put up a part of that you know in the book and just that kind was the segue into the conversation.

For us, but the conversation was really difficult and understandably these guys a devoted 20 years of their lives as well and so I think they wanted to be supportive but at the same time. Understandably, they were doing with their own pain and you know there visibly upset. But that's when I had to again put in God's hands and do my best to be a friend, even through time when I was the one leaving.

It was really hard to know how to navigate, but God gave us grace through it. It was difficult but the really cool part about that as of watched as he has healed any of those hurts over time and and made our relationship stronger.

Matt Hammett is joining us on Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is go to the website.

Five love you'll see more about leave me the book about the story that he's telling of the song that your hearing, I have to ask you though.

Matt you know there's there's probably some by listings as well. That's that's great for him, that God spoke to him he could leave this I'm not a singer-songwriter worked out the plan I work at the auto shop or whatever.

I can't quit and and devote all the time to my family.

It's just not possible. You're not saying that every father and husband is loosely want to quit their job and and do full-time home explained that to me I was gone.

250 days out of the year. You know I had to look at my life personally say okay if I want to be good at my my job I have to show up. I have to show up in the writing about the show up on stage at the performer. If I wasn't willing to show up for that job. How could I be excellent at it and I'd asked myself if I don't ever show up at home.

How can I be an excellent husband and father either some hard questions in there for anybody you're absolutely right. Not everybody can just up and leave their job, not a root is called to do that but I do think that we are all called to ask the hard questions about how have we risen to be the demand of the followers and the husband that God is called us to be on a daily basis to fight through those hard questions about who we really are versus who we want to be and what steps big or small. God is calling us to take the answer that call, you noticed that sometimes the big things big, hard decisions, career decisions and sometimes other little things like how do I schedule time this week to give one-on-one attention to each one of my children or how do I prioritize time in my schedule this week to pray with my wife and to read to her and to talk with her about some of the deeper issues that are on her heart. Jerry what Matt is describing right there is what you see in the counseling office every week it's it's what you deal with have dealt with in your own life to write.

Absolutely Chris Christie my remember I think I shared this once before but I know several months ago due to funeral and there was a young man in his 20s and after we were at the cemetery and after service was over just engaged him I didn't know him, but he was the son of the man that enters asking me in conversation about his father and he said I never knew my father said really he suggested he worked five days a week and I have no time with him and every Saturday play golf all day and he said understood I never knew my father and I walked away with tears in Zeno we want to be good father to me.

Most of us really want to be good fathers but we get caught up sometimes and in the whole thing of making a living and position all of that and really miss out on really the most important in our lives.

Hope the fathers are losing to us today and hope to get a copy this book and read it. It will help them think about what adjustments they need to make in your right you know matter that it's not easy and it'll be different for each father, but only if we ask God to give us direction. You know we can do both.

You speak a lot of military bases in us because you know you could be a good military man and be a good father and a good husband. You know in their courseware. Your forcibly separated a lot but it's all a matter where your heart is in and where your priority is God can help you are thinking in any vocation to see what you need to do that. We were talking before the break, about those men who have to be deployed in the sense of people in the military and other salespeople who have to go out and have to travel a lot. That's just part of the job. What you say to those men you know I still travel every now and again that is much as I did before, but just as recently as a spring Kirk Cameron asked me to come out for 30 days on his living reset to her. We usually did once a weekend, while our one weekend a month and so that was a change for us in leading up to it. I just had a conversation with Sarah. What you need for me when I leave you know were not used to be being gone this much anymore and so I think is the willingness to have those conversations in an not every wife is like my wife Sarah life there is very verbal. She doesn't hesitate to tell me the things that she needs is a husband. We might need to sometimes prod and asked those questions, you know, is that a just floating along assuming that everything is going to be fine no matter what the circumstances you seeing changes, seeing times and to be away times are to be full of more stress or busyness and taken some preventative measures to have those conversations about what is it that you need for me. What can I give to that simple and enough for my wife.

It was hey when you get up in the morning.

I waited checking with me. Don't wait wake up and do your thing and forget about me until I call you or you check in the afternoon I'd like you to wake up and think of me text me or call me and just checking me throughout the day, you know, I think that's a really simple thing to do. That just made her feel loved, so is a lettings looking for those kinds of things you think you're think you're right.

You wrote a book on the military probably is military. Additional how to speak all the love languages when you're deplored you can. In today's world you can even physical touch. Rick talked about. There's not literal touch. Much emotional touch when you say such things as if our home right now give you big my let's talk about another topic, another experience in your life at the time that lead me to hit number one on the charts you and Sarah were by your son born's bedside for his first open heart surgery. Tell us about that. So in March 2010 pieces of a real heart of the album would lead me on it came out and is kinda crazy because I had a patchwork heart on the front of it that was broken in only one month later we found out that our son who is still in Sarah's belly was going to be born with only half of his heart, so that patchwork heart really can't took on a whole new meaning for us.

So from April to September while we were waiting for Boeing to be born.

We just had to learn how to trust the Lord of the situation, try to learn what life was going to look like with a kid with severe heart disease, we found out that we have to have a series of open heart surgeries and just prayed that God would help us and through you know was an easy and so September 9 came around Bowen. Matthew Hammett was born and five days later he went in for his first open heart surgery. You know that night. We actually he had a cardiac arrest at 2:13 AM we didn't think he was going to survive. And by the grace of God, and those wonderful nurses and doctors at his bedside. You know he he survived and we were able to keep our son and that next day I remember looking at the chart will I'm standing my sons bedside who I'd almost lost and lead me was number one that week for the very first time and it was the strangest thing because I'm looking at this thing that I've always wanted to write all the record sales are happening the song and reach number one on the main Christian chart all around the world was number one Christian radio and in that moment, all that success. I had dreamed of. Didn't mean as much to me.

Not that I wasn't grateful that that didn't mean anything at all. Of course it did the man in light of standing my sons bedside vials almost lost. I realize in that moment. What really mattered to grow one's illness affect your marriage and what would you say to other parents who have chronically children with chronic legal problems. This is another thing I write about at length because I think it's really important for parents of chronically ill children or parents are facing in a medical stress of any sort to really talk about some of the deeper issues that are happening inside their hearts because Sarah and I didn't know how to recognize those things as they were happening course. We were brand-new parents of chronically ill child. We had dealt this before everything we did know to look out for and so what happened to us was that we began to grieve differently and we began to grieve separately so I'm creative relational processor. My grief I needed to write. I need to get away. You know like for an hour or so a day to write my thoughts write the journal to read. I desired for Sarah to step away from the bedside and be with me in process verbally, relationally, what we're going through together and her grief.

She kind of went full forward to the battlefront right on the front line in Bowen's health and would not leave his bedside and she was solely focused on how do I help my boys survive, which is also important to me but she saw how can you step away. How can you want me to step away, even if it's for a short period time and I'm thinking will. How can't you step away. I knew my wife. I need our relationship. I need to process in this way, and so instead of grieving together and coming together. Our differences began to pull us apart and actually drive a wedge of contempt between us, leading to very difficult season for us, which, by the grace of God we were. It was in good counseling in God's help, just to get through but that was a hard season for us to questionably listen very, very common phenomena because men and women often grieve differently, and I would understand the other person in the other person's actions are there words at times like that.

So they'll so tell us tell us how things went with one yes so Bowen is nine years old. He just turned nine last September and he had his third major open heart surgery last July and yelling. It honestly could not have gone better leading up to it. We were so obviously had so many feelings when he was a baby and had is to open heart surgeries.

We loved him, but we didn't know his personality at he wasn't this massive part of our family write his little boy bring some is joy to his siblings and send in our neighborhood and community and so there was kind of.

It felt like a heavier weight this time going into it, but the Lord is good to us and and I'm in. I believe he's good whether he gives or takes. Don't get me wrong, but were grateful for that. That surgery was in and out as quickly as he possibly could recovered and now he's really thriving. And so it's been season, a blessing for us.

What is grateful for every day that we see in thriving right now and you know the crazy thing is Gary to I will say is is and I have to say this Bowen actually has his own album on spot, a five which is funny. I mean he's he loves music and so people want to hear a little boy who's been through so much and pours his heart and joy in his love for God out in song they get to go to the spot of fire revenue stream music is everywhere. Bowen Hammett is just what is under, but how to go check it out because it's it's so sweet and he's surprisingly talented for his age. That's exciting when you shared your story with us and how you left the band in order to be a father and be a husband was like look like they'll know giving up life on the road doesn't fix everything right yeah exactly what would kind of things are facing yeah exactly as I get good or hard decisions don't change things for good now. We still fight these same cycles and our conflict and communication is funny. Just this past week we went down to the on radio show some friends of ours for marriage and family and on the way like man. We dislike had one of those arguments were just like our recent stupid you know like we know the sensitive time in filling. Even the boys seem to be these moments were supposed to be sharing how great things are. We all know, and ministry that the truth is that it's a daily battle to work through those those cycles of conflict and struggle and so you know I think that being off the road. I was is and fix it but it does take away one of the major obstacles that was in the way of us having that time and space to work those things out. It's good that we don't have to be perfect to have good marriages and be good parents right that's right yeah and and try to model that for kids do you know we we talked very openly about our conflict with the kids and I was in of the details of all of it, but we do know we talk about like a know people fight in mommies and daddies fight and were we try to look transparent because we never want our kids to feel like because you have conflict day that you have to and marriage partner to partner life remote. Two people go think the same way about her.

But everything using families or men that have shared with you how they been inspired by reading your story. A lot of people are the same thing about the book that this had about the song that articulates a feeling in a particularly in man about marriage relationships that maybe they didn't know how to put in the words themselves but they feel that in here that when they the read the book of the song. I think some of the practical lessons in the book, though, to our heart. You know, stirring up men's hearts. One of those Artie mentioned about you know good intentions versus actions I talk a lot about good intentions being worthless until they become actions based in the reality of not what we think people we love need, but based in the reality of what others around us who need to be loved by us which I mean falls right into what you do. Gary no learning somebody else's love language not just trying to love people with our own, and I think there's there's a lot of that sprinkled throughout that I get a lot of feedback on and also in one area that I've got a lot of feedback on his simply taking responsibility and being proactive is Gardner's has Manning cultivating the beauty in our relationships in on the face of neglect with beautiful dies and was ugly thrives just like our rear real guarding it to cultivate the flowers and you have to pull the weeds right. It's like I wish it was the other way around. Don't we all. So I think some of these practical lessons and get a lot of good feedback on mix of the story. I hope continues to just target guys hearts to just base some of the harder questions but also be really encouraged through it. I go home You have own good intentions as opposed to taking action so important because most men do have good intentions, but that they really do want to be good husbands and leaders of the children in the family, but we can have good intentions get the job right when I speak in illustration I use that seems really like impactful, especially with guys the articles work out dies and I have about the target.

I really did about a target rolled out of the bag on my back seat and you know as well as I get there on the ground tells you like what work out to do or what you have 20 push-ups 30 sit ups you to stay in the back my car for like six months and my I wanted this thing to like you know revolutionize my fitness life to send the back my car, but every time I looked at it. I saw 30 sit ups in my head I was doing 30 sit ups, and in my mind every day, I was imagining myself doing the thing that I want to do and saw that I brought in the house but I really do use this is set for another six months or mudroom. It was push-ups in my head every day. I was due my push-ups in my mind imagine myself getting ripped all my good intentions, but nothing was actually happening, or anyone around me would see the difference because it wasn't real and I think we all have an imagined life.

If we want to be. I see myself praying with my kids, spending more quality time with them being a better husband doing the things I imagine would make me that sometimes we make our imagined life are reality and I think coming to grips with that imagined life and asking her questions about whether how much of it really real man.

Yet that's the piece I think that that really is pushing towards changes for God can change us right would let go that pride of we want to be and see who we really are.

Think good little your life, but I think the book that you've written is going to help a lot of men take action.

At least that's my prayer and I know that your prayer. One of the other things that really weaves its way through your book. That is the. The idea of suffering and pain, and God allowing this in and working in us. There was a story a few weeks ago about a singer from a Christian rock band who announced, I don't believe in God anymore and you reached out to him on social media you owed just trying to be a voice of of hope and and comfort to him, I think, but there a lot of people who you know, walk in the front of the church and walk out the back of the church because they can't reconcile suffering and pain in a good God, what you said about that.

You know, I've written some songs of Hawk Nelson with John Fanon. I actually spoke with them today. Fun enough to be honest, it really breaks my heart because I see this is a pattern just like you do. I also when I read his thought process about where he was in his life and the questions he was asking. I also have empathy because I understand those questions and it makes me realize that okay you know this was something that there is something a lot of people like John are feeling and have legitimate questions that have answers and the answers are there, they're not always easy, and are laced with mystery, but I do think in my opinion we have to do a better job as the church and as followers of Christ on approaching and engaging the issue of doubt, you know he was and he was approaching the issue of doubt with people around him finding in his doubt that so many others were doubting as well. Even people who we thought would be doubting the truth is we all have doubts faith rise believing what you can't see. And so that's a hard journey. It really is and so I just think that may be. We need to be engaging some of these conversations on a regular basis with the people that we love so we can work through them in a context of the hopefully moving closer to Christ not further away from them will certainly agree with that. No, Jesus want to turn to some of his followers and stood as the multitudes left him should would you guys also want to leave and I said where would we go. You have the words of eternal life. Think that's that's a question that still can be heard today. If we leave Christ work where were we going is no good answer.

I eyed it will say no. John's new endeavor is a creative life worth living. And I love him as a friend dearly but I can't help but think what's worth living is a creator when you don't know your own creator. You think you're right. We need to be empathetic with people are struggling because as you say you down as a part of life and a member and be with him. Here we can be friends to people even who disagree with us. Yes, that's a good word because the arms of Christ are always open. We can walk away and we can walk back to the prodigal son came home. So this been a great discussion. I want to appreciate your being with us today and for taking time and energy to put all of this in a book that I think God is going to use to encourage and help a lot of guys. Thanks again for being with you think Dr. Chapman appreciate you have mail. We hope this honest conversation has encouraged you as a dad is given perspective of some of the struggles going on a lot of people's lives, Dr. Dennis Rainey describes our featured resource as an epic book that every man, married or single, should read title again finding courage to fight for your marriage, children, and find out more.

Five love money next week, creative, fun ideas to help you/family connections and strengthen your marriage when you're stuck at home. Find out in one week. I think thinking today to our production time Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman's production at leading radio in Chicago with Moody publishers a ministry at Moody Bible. And thanks for listening, and happy Father's Day

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