Listen and Learn | Al & Autumn Ray

Across Africa, millions of Christians are suffering a Bible famine. They hunger for God's Word, but there simply aren't enough Bibles. Today, Timothy Project is close to launching Africa's first Bible web press. To help complete this project, visit timothyproject.info. Communication help for your marriage is coming up today on Building Relationships with Dr.

Gary Chapman. If you're communicating and the person is feeling heard, they feel loved. It draws them closer together and it creates intimacy. Maybe you're going through this so that you can hear this broadcast, so that now you can take a step in the right direction. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr.

Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller "The 5 Love Languages" . Today, if your marriage feels stuck in silence or cycles of frustration, don't miss the conversation straight ahead. Al and Autumn Ray have been married more than fifty years, and they want to coach you and your spouse in some basic communication skills. If you go to buildingrelationships.us, you'll see our featured resource. It's a story-based series that's simple but powerful.

The first book is titled "Rick and Jane Learn to Listen and Talk." I'm thinking about my childhood and reading the Dick and Jane books, and it's kind of the same way. We'll find out about it here. Go to Building Relationships. U.S. and I see an endorsement that says this book could change the way you talk and listen.

I highly recommend it. That's by someone named Dr. Gary Chapman. Look at that, Gary.

Well, it's always a pleasure to endorse books that you really believe in.

Okay, and so I'm excited about our program today. I am too. Let's meet Al and Autumn Ray. They've been married since 1970. You can do the math, and they are co-founders of Marriage Team, which provides Christian marriage coaching services.

Together, they've trained hundreds of couples nationwide. Al holds a Master's of Science in Counseling and Human Development. He served more than 27 years in the U.S. Air Force and later became the full-time executive director of Marriage Team. Autumn earned her Bachelor of Science in Social work served as volunteer manager for the Multnomah County Department of Community Justice, and is an experienced trainer and leader.

They live in Camas, Washington, and have two married children and two grandchildren. And if you go to buildingrelationships.us, you'll see their book. Rick and Jane learned to listen and talk. Again, go to buildingrelationships.us.

Well, in autumn, welcome to Building Relationships.

Well, thank you, Gary. It's great to be here. It's wonderful to hear your voice.

Well, now, can you take us back a few years, maybe the late '60s in your own life, and share with us a little bit about how the two of you met and fell in love, Autumn? You're first, Jerry. You are taking us back many, many years. Let me see if I can go back that far.

So, Alan and I were in college. I'm going to give us a plug to our college, Michigan Technological University. And so, Alan was in his senior year, and I was there as a sophomore.

So, Alan had two months left before he graduated.

So, I'm telling you that because we had a long-distance relationship.

So he graduated and I was left at school. But in that two months, we met and fell in love and decided, really, that we wanted to spend our lives together. It was a little bit of a situation to get together because he was going to be in the air force, and again, we were going to have long-distance relationship for most of our engagement, and then a little bit of our married lives too, as he. Took on the Air Force as a career. All right, so Al, how did you know that she was the one?

That's a very interesting question, and it's always easier in hindsight. But we had both dated other people, and we—I really. Liked Autumn, I loved her. We were doing things together. We were having a good time, and I didn't want our relationship to end.

And I knew if I was going to be going across the country, it would probably be the end of the relationship.

So we got married and started life together. And I can honestly say, though, in hindsight, it was the absolute best decision of my life. Oh, yeah! I'm the person today that I am because of Autumn.

Well, I think all of us who have healthy marriages through the years would agree with that about our own marriages as well. All right, how about this military service now? I've worked with a lot of military couples through the years myself. I haven't been in the military, but how did your military service affect your marriage? Yeah.

I'm sure you worked with a lot of military couples, Gary, because a lot of us need help. That's for sure. You know, this is funny. I had put together a list of things that I wanted in a husband, and the top—I wasn't a Christian at the time, so at the top of my list was someone who had completed their military service, because it was during the Vietnam War, and I didn't want to get stuck in that kind of a situation.

So God has a sense of humor, and He put Alan in my life.

So for the next twenty-seven years, I was a military wife, and yes, all of the. Trials and tribulations that come with being a military wife fell upon us with the separations, and Alan would come home, and then you know this is my house, this is my car because I've been running it while you've been away, and now you're going to come home, and now you're going to take over, and it was a very confusing time because you think you're married, but then you're not because you're living the life of a single person while the husband's gone.

So we. Had a lot of difficulties in our marriage. You know, I think those who have never experienced that can only imagine. You know what that's like, but it's very real, and the struggles are there. You know, I changed once I joined the military.

I was a pretty carefree guy in college, but once I got into the military, I became a workaholic, and that didn't help the marriage either.

So it was the combination of the military and my focus on that 24/7 that really just contributed to a very difficult relationship. Yeah, yeah.

Well, we're glad you survived those those years, and you've gone on not only to have a healthy marriage, but to help so many others.

So, for those who don't know about it, what is marriage team, and how did you come up with that concept?

Well, as as I mentioned, or as Autumn mentioned, we were not Christians when we were married, but after about ten years, we came to the Lord, and that was Autumn first, and then me. Marriage came about because our marriage was a wreck, and we could not get it back together. And I always like to tell people that because there are people out there listening, saying my marriage is a wreck, and I'm going, "Hey, I really get that." We went to everything we could that had the word marriage on it. If there was a class, we went to it. If there was a book, we read it.

You know, and some people get it. And Alan and I thought we said, "Oh gosh, we were really intelligent people, but we really were stupid because for." For some reason, we could not get it. Going to the counselors, talking to a pastor, you know, going to everything that had the word marriage on it, and so. Gradually, as we grew and learned more and tried to figure out our own relationship, what was happening around us was astonishing. All these people that we knew, we grew up, our kids grew up with them, we went camping with them; they were our friends.

And then they were were coming to us and going, "Well, we just can't make it either. You know, we tried everything, and and they were getting divorced." And Alan and I were just astonished that we couldn't find anything that would work. What what was the matter? And I remember. Literally, we were in a prayer group and we were praying, and I was complaining to the Lord again, one of my many times, about why don't you do something about all these broken marriages?

It's breaking my heart. And I said out loud, "What can I do?" And it was like I opened the floodgates, and God said, "Finally, Autumn, you asked the right question, and now you're going to get the answers." And that was actually the beginning of Marriage Team when Alan and I said yes to the. Lord, what can we do? And part of that became, as we started working more with couples, we effectively identified what worked and what didn't work. And what we found really resonated and explained a lot of our own difficulties was the playbook analogy.

And that is that we are born onto different teams, our families, and we learn how to do life on that team, which includes all our expectations, all of the norms, everything we take for granted. All of that stuff. We get married, we create a new team, but we bring our old playbooks, and we don't share it very effectively.

So there's a lot of unwritten assumptions and everything that cause a lot of problems.

So coaching, we found, is helps couples create common agreements, i.e., new plays, so they can work together. Effectively and meet their common goals. You know, some people have difficulty understanding what we mean when we say play.

So I always like to give an example. I had a lot of bad plays in my playbook, but one of them I had said that if Alan loved me and cared about me, he would know what I needed and wanted.

Well, that play was not in Alan's playbook.

So consequently, when he did not meet my needs, what did that say to Autumn? Oh, Alan does not love me, and he does not care about me. And I had nothing in. My playbook that said, "Oh, I get to tell him what I need and want." So you can't imagine what happened in our relationship. The play that I had was that I just assumed that life was going to go on as it was, and our relationship wasn't going to change.

And we all know how how messed up play that is when you are married. Yeah, yeah.

So, what have you seen happen through your ministry, your own growth, and then through your ministry to other couples through the years? Yeah, you know what I love about ministry, and I know anyone in ministry can say this: is that as you're doing the Lord's work and doing what He called you to do, your relationship changes, or even your your your personhood changes when you're doing the ministry. And that's one of the things that happened to Alan, and it's one of the things that happens to the coaches in marriage team. If you ask them what they like most about being coaches, there's two things they'll say. One is Is that it keeps our relationship on track because we have to be practicing the skills and working with couples.

And the other thing is, it's a fabulous ministry that we get to do together, and we do it with the Holy Spirit. We can see the Holy Spirit change lives, and so that's what happened to Alan and I through the years. We became Much better at marriage ourselves, but then also watching how the Lord works. I think those are the two things. Yeah, and along those lines, the Lord really blessed that work.

Marriage team now has about one hundred and fifty coaches in twenty five states. And they coach couple to couple, face to face, via technology. And probably seventy to eighty percent of the coaching now is done online, with very similar results, where lives are being transformed and marriages are being healed.

So it has been amazing to see how the Lord and the Holy Spirit have blessed the work. Because when we started, we had no idea of where it was going to go or what it was going to involve. No, you know, Ellen, that reminded me too about when we started. It was like we were talking the Lord about, and it's like you're a God of transformation. We really would like to see transform lives.

So if we start this and we don't see any transform lives, we're not going to waste your time, and we're not going to waste our time.

So from the very Beginning, we we did metrics. We have statistics on every single couple and every single coach who's ever gone through marriage team.

So we can say with certainty that eighty nine percent of the couples who go through marriage team who have divorce papers in hand or are thinking about divorce, they not only stay together, which wasn't a good enough statistic for me. I had to go back and go, Are you staying together because you just don't want to quit or what? No, they're staying together because God has transformed their marriages, and they are in love, and and became a team. And you know, I think the secret to that is that marriage coaching—I mean—is biblically based. But we teach skills, and the key thing is the coaches help the couples implement the skills.

Because it's one thing to have knowledge about what you should do, but if you don't do it, it's useless.

So, in changing plays, it is hard to change habits, and that's what coaches do as they help couples change their habits.

So, Al and Autumn, earlier in our first session, we talked a little bit about your own struggles and your own marriage. You know, which later led you to help others, reach out to help others. Were there particularly some really low points in your relationship that comes back to you as you think about it?

Well, I try not to think about it, but if you're going to make me go there, I will tell you one thing, and and this is what I've heard from people. They say when we hear you say this, Autumn, we know that there's hope for our own relationship.

So this is what I'm going to say. There were times in my relationship where there were three things that I could do. I could pray about it. I could go to counseling. I could go to Pastor, or I could change, and.

Oh, and the other thing was, or I could be miserable the rest of my life.

So, what was I going to choose?

Well, I didn't want to be miserable the rest of my life, which is what I hear people sometimes choose. And I'm telling you, you do not have to choose that. There's a better way. But here's the thing: you have to be willing to change. You have to want to change.

But you have to know how to change. And that was what Marriage Team took on: was helping people learn how. How to change, but then having them practice it over and over again until it became natural in their lives. It is such a joy to watch a couple come at the beginning. They're not talking with each other.

Their arms are folded. They're looking the other direction. And why does it always astonish me? Why does it always astonish me that by the fifth meeting they're laughing with us. They're smiling.

They're talking with each other. It's like they don't need us anymore. They're having a Conversation with each other, and we're just sort of sitting in watching it.

So that's my encouragement for people who think like I did: you have to be miserable the rest of your life.

So when you were going through your your deeper struggles and all, did one of you take the initiative in saying, "You know, we got to reach out. We got to find help." How did that? How did you get reaching out for help? Yeah, I think Alan was oblivious. I'm going to let him say that.

I think he was oblivious to my pain, but I don't want to talk for him.

Well, I I was oblivious to to Autumn's pain, and but it was during the counseling time when I was getting my master's. I just realized that you know we needed some help, so I suggested to Autumn and you know that we get some counseling, and and we did. And through that process, things got better. We were both willing to do it, but I think I actually suggested it because I was actually studying about it. Yeah.

What's nice when we can apply some of the things we're learning learning in the academic setting. Very true. You know, Gary, I do want to address this though. If there's a a spouse that doesn't want to come, and is reluctant, it is amazing. All they have to do is show up.

I mean, if you can get them to show up, the transformation can begin. This actually, right now, we're coaching a couple, and the first three times they came, he was. Just stoic. He has never smiled. He never interacted.

He was like really afraid, kind of, to be there. And it was amazing to see him find out how non-threatening it was. How nobody was going to take a side. We were on the side of the relationship, not her side or his side. And by the third meeting, he has opened up just unbelievably.

So if you have somebody out there that doesn't want to do it, just get them to the first meeting. Good advice. First step. Amen.

So let's talk about this series with Rick and Jane in this book. These are fictional stories that show how a marriage can overcome obstacles. Why did you choose that fictional format?

Well, actually, it was interesting. It the idea that was spawned while we were visiting the coast, and we were talking and writing on a napkin, and we said, "Gee, we need something that's simple and easy where people can understand marriage coaching." And we said, "How about something like Dick and Jane?" At the time, I'd forgotten that Dick and Jane were brother and sister, so hence Rick became into the picture. But I love the fact you said it's fictional. Yeah, we like people to believe it's fictional. Rick and Jane are Autumn and Alan with Oliver Foible.

Yeah, and so we just put it in a story format in a very simple, you know, big print, lots of pictures because we wanted it to be really easy to read and that. They can identify with that couple, Rick and Jane, in the story. That oh my goodness, that's us in the kitchen, or that's us in the car, or that's us arguing about the kids. And then they want to find out how do Rick and Jane handle it, and that's where the marriage team coaching skills come in. Yeah, that that's the scenario that plays out through all eight books.

Is the coaches help apply the skills much like if they were going to coaching actually with marriage team because the book was written after twenty years of experience. The books were of coaching and working with other couples, so has a lot of coaching experiences in it, not only from us but from the coaches as well. Yeah, so book one is about communication. Why do you think communication is the first step to intimacy in a marriage?

Well, we think it's the first step because you can't have an intimate relationship without communication. Communication allows you to get to know the other person, and without knowing the other person, it is hard to be intimate. There's a quote by David Ogilberger that says, "Being heard is so close to being loved that most people cannot tell the difference." So, if you're communicating and the person is feeling heard, they feel loved, and when people feel loved, that it draws them closer together, and it creates intimacy. And I'm going to jump ahead a little bit. Seven books.

We talk about the seven forms of or the eight forms of intimacy.

So communication is the start, but without communication, it's really hard to get there.

So in our book, we have like a quiz that you can take that says, you know, how well do you listen? And it is amazing when people take that quiz because everybody says, oh yeah, we know how to listen and we know how to talk. We don't, you know, that's not the that we're not the problem. It's probably the other person that's the problem. But when they take the quiz, they begin to realize, "Oh my goodness, I'm not such a great listener," and there's no.

Blame, you know. There's no judgment, of course. How do you know how to do anything unless you're taught? The Bible says, "How will they know unless they have a teacher?" And so, once they begin to learn, oh my goodness, I can listen to somebody, I can understand somebody, and I don't have to agree with them. I mean, that's a huge transformation of the mind when people understand you don't have to agree in order to understand with someone.

It changes the way you communicate.

So, yes. How on earth can you have intimacy if you're not being heard, if you're not being listened to, if someone's not caring and and concerned about your well-being, and and that's what marriage team skills teach. Yeah. You know, I think there is no question about it that communication is absolute necessity if we're going to have an intimate marriage. You know, I've sometimes said that what oxygen is to the body, communication is to the relationship.

It's a necessity. We don't we don't make it without that. You know, so in the story, Rick and Jane have an argument, and Jane gets angry and leaves the room and gives him the silent treatment.

Now, why is the silent treatment so damaging to a marriage? You are talking to the expert silent treatment person right here. I know, I know, I can answer that one, teacher. The silent treatment.

Okay, so you know what? That is so manipulative, and I didn't know that. It's so controlling. It's like you, you. Suck the ability of the other person to communicate with you when you do that, and it's like a punishment for the other person.

Now, sticking up for the silent treatment person. Because I I want to give myself some credit. Here is again, they don't know the damage that it does, and they don't understand the manipulation that's occurring. And and the truth is, they don't know how to talk or how to speak for themselves. They have a lot to say, they just don't know how to say it.

So again, that's one of the things that we like to do in our books is. Teach them how you can talk to someone when you have some emotion about something, and instead of you know coming across as attacking. Or, or verbally abusing someone.

So, yeah, silent treatment. It wouldn't be nice. This is what I tell some people when they come to us. Wouldn't it be nice if you never had to do that again in your entire life because you learned a new skill? Same thing about anger.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if, in your relationship, your team knew exactly what to do when one person got angry, and and you knew exactly what the play was, and you never had to play the old plays again? It's exciting. People want to learn. Wow! We never have to do that again.

How do you do that? And that's the that's the real key here is that the all of the books are written with creating awareness, and often that's a self assessment, and then having some simple concepts presented, and then actually applying them. And in the application process, it's equally important. People will make commitments to do things, but they're going to fall back into the old habits. And if they don't have a way, and we call it a relapse reminder, but if they don't have a way to get back on track, they're going down the rabbit hole again.

So they know in advance what to say. That's going to help bring their teammate back around and get them back on the right track, and all of that's part of the coaching process and what the coaches do. Yeah, you know that is so fun because Alan and I have relapse reminders. We make cards and we put them up around the house that remind us what we're supposed to do in certain situations.

So we have some of them on the mirror in our bathroom. I'm going to tell you this story.

Okay, we're going to be vulnerable here because I'm probably not going to meet most of you, but this is vulnerable.

So we have these things up on the bathroom wall, and our grandson was spending the night here, and he he's reading these things while he's brushing his teeth in the morning, and he stops and he looks at me. He says, "Grandma," he says, "these things sound really good. I don't always see these things happening in your house." So talk about somebody keeping you accountable. Oh yes! Oh yes!

So Al, in the earlier days, when she would give you the silent treatment, how did how did you respond to that?

Well, it you know it just made me mad, and I didn't have a good play for dealing with it either. I would typically initially raise my voice and yell and and complain that we just needed to solve it, and I'd get real emphatic about it and everything, and that just drove her farther away.

So you know we were both extremely frustrated, and then I would go off huffing and puffing. But in my playbook, my dad would get mad; he would blow up. But then he got over it really quickly. Autumn didn't get over it as quickly, so I would have it in the past and want to move forward, and Autumn would be still harboring those those hurt feelings. Yeah.

This is the Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman podcast. Al and Autumn Ray have written our featured resource today. It's titled "Rick and Jane Learn to Listen and Talk." Find out more at buildingrelationships.us. Plus, you can take a free assessment of your love language and see when Gary's coming to your area for a seminar.

Just go to buildingrelationships.us or find us at fivelovelanguages.com.

So, Alan and Autumn, we're talking about communication. Is there a secret to effective communication?

Well, there is, and let me just expand a little bit on it before we get to the exact secret. Anyone who's gone to church for any length of time knows what we should be doing.

So, it's not that we don't know what we should be doing. People also also say it is hard work. Marriage, but they don't tell you what the work is.

So the secret here is the is the secret to both the hard work and what to do, and that is to when our buttons are being pushed, to hold our emotions in check and listen to understand our teammate. If we can do that, we can defuse the situation and we gain the information we need to come up with a. Collaborative solution to whatever the issue is. Unfortunately, it's extremely hard to hold our emotions in check, and that's where coaching can really help because the coaches facilitate the process and will help to lower the temperature so that couples are actually using the skills. And when the skills are used, it's remarkable how that changes the dynamic.

You know, I'm going to give you an example of our own relationship here and how it works, because. Oftentimes it doesn't work immediately, but here you have to practice the play over and over again. And so, in our relationship, I will be talking to Alan, and Alan will get frustrated with what I'm saying. And of course, I can see the body language.

Now, in the old days, I would say, "There you go again. You know, you're getting frustrated. This this conversation is going to go downhill." And of course, it goes downhill. But when you learn a different play, it's like Alan and we we learn Alan. Hold me.

What I can say to him to get him to respond differently?

So I will say his words, Alan. I notice that you're getting frustrated. This is what I'm seeing. You know, you're you're breathing heavily. You know, you're interrupting.

Your facial expression looks frustrated, and and I'll say. I am moving away from the conversation when I see that, and I know we both don't want that.

So, could we go get back on track?

Okay, and then you expect that you'd be able to get back on track, but because you're so mired in your emotions, oftentimes you're not.

So, Alan will continue, and this is not against him. This is not a criticism. This is just how our relationship is. He will still be frustrated, and the conversation. I will feel.

Pulling away, so I say the same thing over again, just like you would practice and play in basketball and football or anything. You just say the same thing over again, and I will watch my dear husband, and I will see him. He will take a breath. He will go, and it just resets him. And we will have an adult communication, just because we know how to stop it before it goes south.

And what I had to learn in that process was that it didn't matter how I was seeing the situation; it only mattered how Autumn was experiencing it.

So when she would say that, I might not initially see it, and and therefore she'd have to say it a couple, one or two times more. But then when I realized that that was what the dynamic was, that's when the deep breath came, and I could reset and focus on. Not being frustrated and and using the skills. I think a lot of our listeners there can identify with what you what you all are describing here, and they're saying, "Ooh, I need to get those words down." Yeah, we call them magic words. Yeah, magic magic words.

Yeah. So, what makes marital communication so hard compared to just talking with a friend? Yeah. Well, you don't live with a friend, so you don't have all the same frustrations. The minutia that bothers you with a with a teammate that you live with is not the same as what you have with a friend.

And because you're in this intimate relationship with someone and share all the foibles day in and day out. That's what makes the communication difficult. You you will say things to your spouse that you will not say to a friend, and I think they push more buttons. It's it's just in more of an emotional situation than it is with a friend.

So that's why you don't have to really learn a playbook with a friend, but you need to learn how to change your plays when you're in a relationship. And I think also the fact that for most of us our spouse is the most important person in our lives, and therefore if they say something that might be critical, it becomes very hurtful, and then we respond emotionally to what we've heard, and. A friend is probably going to be a little bit more sensitive to that, and you're not going to be as frank and maybe as as vocal about those foibles as your teammate is, for all the reasons autumn mentioned.

So I think that therein lies the difference. Is we place an awful lot of value on what our teammate says, and maybe not so much on what a friend says. I'm thinking of something that someone said to us a while ago, and I just want to share it for people out there who have been struggling for years and years and years. At a conference, someone in the audience said, "Do you wish that you had learned this earlier in your relationship?" And I had to stop and think about it. And my answer is no, I'm not, because I became the I like the person I've become, and I love the person Alan has become.

And we would not be these people if we hadn't gone through the trials that we've gone through and learned what we what we learned.

So, for anybody out there who's really struggling, And go. Oh, I wish it were like this. I wish it were like this. Maybe you're going through this so that you could hear this broadcast, so that now you can take a step in the right direction.

So, how does coaching, marriage coaching, how does it work, and how is it different from counseling or mentoring?

Well, there are very some some very specific differences in coaching. The coaches view the couple as the expert on their relationship.

Now it may be a dysfunctional relationship, but they know when she sighs or she does whatever what that means. Whereas the coaches may not.

So the couple is the expert on their relationship, and as such, they're the only ones that can fix it. The coach is the the expert on the process, the process of coaching, of asking questions, of sharing observations, of reflecting back what they're hearing. All of those good coaching skills, which are also good counseling skills.

So the coaches are a master of that. But the key to coaching is the job description of the coach is to help the couple create new agreements. And relapses, so that they can move forward together, to replace that old playbook with something that's going to work for them. Because they've become aware of the dynamics that are going on, and they really want to change.

Now, change is a hard thing.

Some people you think want to change, but for whatever reason, they're incapable of changing. Things that make people incapable of changing include abusive relationships. Addictions, ongoing unrepentant affairs, and untreated mental health issues. When those things are present, coaching will not work. And marriage team, for instance, will make referrals to for professional help to deal with those issues before a couple goes into coaching.

So that's what coaching does. Counseling couples are trained with extensive training to deal with many of those issues that we talked about, and they have a different skill set.

So we train lay couples to be coaches, and they get amazing results working with the Holy Spirit through the process. When it comes to mentoring, mentoring is more about an older, wiser person sharing their life with a younger couple, and that the experiences that they have will help the couple have a better relationship.

Now, older and wiser people—they may be old and wise in their relationship—but when they tell us what works for them, it may very well not work for us. And if it doesn't work for us, Well, it was just bad advice. In coaching, couples make their own agreements, so if it doesn't work for them, they own it. And that ownership is really an important part of the dynamic for change, because then the coaches will say, "What didn't work? What could you do differently?" And they will help couples figure out what they want to do next.

So mentoring feels good. People come alongside. It's encouraging. There may be a Bible study involved, a book involved, a study, but it doesn't have the same dynamic as coaching. And one of the things that's different about marriage and coaching is it's couple to couple.

So you're going to get the role modeling, and you're going to have people who can identify with either the husband or the wife, and it really works its magic that way because you have a couple doing it. I can I can see that. Can you share some real-life stories of transformation that you all have seen in your own coaching or the coaching of others? Oh, there are so many. As as I said before, God has got a transformation, and let me just share this with you, Gary.

It's so funny. After all of these years and all these couples that we've coached, the couples will come to us, and the first meeting. I mean, we get couples who are really a wreck. I mean, just like Alan and I were. And after their first session, Alan and I look at each other, and I go, "Here we go.

There's no hope. These couples, they're just not going to make it." Why on earth do we do that? You know, almost every time these these wrecks come to us, and then we watch God do His work. And I do want to share with people that we work with couples who aren't Christians, and many of them, it's amazing, have come to a faith because they've worked with us. But yeah, I several people come to mind, and there there was a couple that was divorced, and they came to us because they heard that.

Possible reconciliation could occur, and over the sessions, our sessions are at least two hours long. It it takes that long for couples to, I guess, get into the flow of what needs to occur. But we watch this couple grow and. Back in love, over the about eight to twelve weeks, I think it was, and and they remarried. It was very exciting, and and just over and over again.

I mean, all of these couples go through my mind. The one couple that comes to my mind is a very accomplished couple. They owned three businesses. They operated them together. And they were just at odds.

Their personalities clashed. They had some different values. I mean, they were both Christians, but some personal value differences about appearances, about what people thought, and it was causing a lot of problems. In the course of that coaching, and coaches create an environment where the Holy Spirit can work. They lower the temperature.

But the husband felt safe enough to share that he had been abused, sexually abused as a child, and that changed the entire dynamic. The wife, all of a sudden, had insight that she didn't have—a new degree of empathy. He decided he was going to get some counseling for that trauma while going through coaching, and that was the turning point in their relationship. And it all came about because of the skills and the lowering of the temperature and the caring relationship. And the couple was had had the opportunity to get in touch with what was really the underlying issue.

And we often say the issue is not the issue. The presenting problem will lead to what is really going on beneath the surface, but that explained a lot of his anger, and a lot of the things that happened. that That they were unaware of what the cause was. Yeah, I was going to share the story of the um. Couple that their kids were watching their dynamic change as they were writing out their plays and posting them around the house, and the daughter one day wanted to ask her dad something, and she calls her her mom at work, and she said, "Oh, I want to ask dad this, but I'm afraid to because I know he'll get mad at me.

Can you tell me where those magic words are that you've been using?" So it carries over into the whole family dynamic. In another situation where we were doing coach training, we had taught the communication skills, and the very next day we always asked for, you know, what kind of feedback did you have? How did they work, and everything. And the wife shared that one of their children, who had been a juvenile delinquent in detention and everything, had come out complaining about something, and she used the listening skills, and rather than having the conversation. And with the kid turning around and walking away, she actually physically drew him closer into the room as she listened to understand and reflect back what she was hearing.

So she said that was like a miracle that they had never had a conversation like that that she could remember.

So the skills translate to the family as well. Alan Autumn, we're talking about communication and just practical things.

So, is there one practical tool that couples can apply today to improve communication?

Well, we we have we always go to listening. Listening is the very first skill that we teach because you can change the dynamic of any conversation if you stop and listen. People go, "Oh, I know how to listen," but they really don't know how to listen.

So, I'm going to give you a quick tutorial here in how to listen.

So, when somebody speaks, you don't talk. Number one, listening is you don't talk and you don't think. About what you're going to say, you concentrate on the words that the other person is saying. And when they take a breath, you say to them, "Let me make sure I'm understanding what you're saying. Is this what you're saying?" And you repeat back in your own words with some emotion what you think the other person is saying.

And then you stop and you say, "Is that right? Is that what you want me to understand?" And wait and give the other person opportunity to say, "Yes, that's what I want you." Understand or no, this is what I want you to understand, and then you listen again, and you go through the same thing, and then they you go, is there anything else? After they go, no, you've got it, and they go, is there anything else you want me to understand? Very simple tool to use, but it will change your relationship if you begin to do that with one another. And I might just add that listening assessment is in that first book that we've been talking about.

That's great. I think what you just shared is so simple but so powerful. Yeah. Let me ask this, because I have been on church staff for years, and many of our listeners are in in churches. Have you seen churches use this series to strengthen marriages in their congregation?

Yes, and we actually wrote a facilitator's guide and a couple workbook to go along with the series, and the early results were in. And it, in that case, forty-two percent of the couples agreed, and fifty-eight percent strongly agreed that the lessons provided practical tools that we can apply in our relationship.

So the facilitator's guide is written like our coaching materials, with the facilitator information right there.

So it's integrated in with what the couple's seeing in their couple workbook, and it makes it really easy to implement. People go through the books, and they get an opportunity to talk about it, share their experiences, and build on it with one another. Anecdotally, we have heard that it changes the dynamic in churches when people go through this and they learn these skills. They have business meetings; they begin to talk differently to each other. They begin to listen differently.

They begin to understand different personalities and and begin to appreciate differences in people simply because these are all parts of the books that people read.

So it was interesting to us how you can change the dynamic. Dynamic of a church just by having people read the books and go through a class, and that was shared with us by the pastor. Oh yeah, I think you're exactly right. I can see that.

So now we've been talking one about this particular book and on communication, but what are other topics that you deal with in other other books in this series? Sure, the conquering anger is the second book, and then that's followed by forgiving, which is really a big breakthrough for many, many couples. That's a very important book. Resolving conflict, solving problems, and appreciating differences. I think we often don't appreciate the differences.

They become irritants, and that creates a lot of strife in marriage. And it's something that really should be appreciated. And then from there, it is cultivating intimacy, and the final book is called The Secret. And Rick and Jane, like Alan and Autumn, were not Christians when they got married. But through this process of coaching and being with a Christian couple, that caused them to ask the questions and to later accept the Lord in their lives.

So that's sort of the wrap up to the series. It's so true, though, that many couples, you know, that aren't Christians that come to us, they'll watch how we relate to each other, and they'll watch us role modeling, and and they'll look at the material in the books, and it's all very practical, but there's scripture in there.

So it's biblically based, but they do come to that questioning about what's different. What's different about you? What's different about this material than all the other things we've been through? And that's why the eighth book is the most exciting book for us. Is that that is the secret to the relationship that you're looking for?

Is Jesus Christ? But I hear you saying that non Christians can work through this series because these skills are things that they can learn, even as they're on the road to coming to Christ. Is that right? Absolutely, you said it very well, Gary. the The books are skill focused and application oriented.

Occasionally, in some of the books, there is some scripture, but coaches are trained to address scripture based on where the couple is in their faith faith journey.

So, for instance, we have coached non Christians. We've coached atheists, and when it comes to the scripture, we say, "Hey, let's look at just what the Bible has to say about it and take it at face value." A harsh word stirs up wrath. What do you think when you're yelling at your wife? Or calling her names, how's that working for you?

So truth is truth, and you just use it to sort of inform, to create a perspective, and then you move on to the application.

So you know if that's not what you want, what do you do? Want to do differently?

Well, I like that. I like that reality that these principles are true, and they will help people wherever they are in their spiritual journey. But it's focusing on their marriage relationship, and I think I certainly agree with you. Ultimately, we all need the help of God in our marriages.

So let me thank you for being with us today. Thank you for putting together this series and for the program you have, and the marriage team and the the coaches. Continue doing what you're doing, and I hope our listeners will not only hear the program today, but will secure, reach out, and secure this material. Because start with the with the one on communication, go through the others. I mean, this is a really great journey to having the kind of marriage that that you wanted to have when you got married.

So, thanks again for being with us today.

Well, we thank you, and it was a joy and a pleasure to be with you. Yes. What an encouraging conversation with Al and Autumn. The book, if you go to BuildingRelationships.us, is "Rick and Jane Learn to Listen and Talk," written by Al and Autumn Ray. Find out more: BuildingRelationships.us.

And next week, if you're tired of being judged or you want to stop judging yourself, we have encouragement for you. Shannon Popkin joins us to talk about finding mercy for yourself and others. Before we go, let me thank our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Backing, Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio, in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.