Your Wildernes is Not a Waste | Dustin Crowe

Across Africa, millions of Christians are suffering a Bible famine. They hunger for God's Word, but there simply aren't enough Bibles. Today, Timothy Project is close to launching Africa's first Bible web press. To help complete this project, visit TimothyProject.info. Are you going through a wilderness struggle in your life?

God will use all the things you go through, good, bad, hard, ugly, because what he's doing in the wilderness is he's training you. And you might not yet know what he's going to call you to do or where he's going to lead you. Before he does that, he's preparing you and changing you and teaching you to trust in him. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" .

Today, pastor and author Dustin Crowe will take us on a journey through the Valley of Pain and Disappointment. He says if you're going through a trial right now, there is purpose in the pain. In fact, he goes so far as to say your wilderness is not a waste. That's the main title of his latest book, subtitled God's Purpose in Suffering and Struggles. It's our featured resource at buildingrelationships.us.

And Gary, I'm sure you have been through some wilderness times in your life. Do you remember a valley when you've kind of questioned God, why is this happening to me? You know, Chris, I think the deepest valley 'Kay. I was ever in was when Carolyn and I I had gone back to seminary, got my PhD degree so that I could teach. at a seminary in Nigeria.

and train pastors to reach their country. Then we officially applied to the mission board, with whom we had already talked. and got turned down. Because of Carolyn's health. They said we can't we can't send you.

Yeah. And both of us were questioning the mission board first of all because she didn't think she was that bad. She had stomach ulcers, but her whole family had stomach ulcers, you know. And so we, you know, kind of upset with the mission board and then we were just saying to God, I don't get it. You know, three years working getting that PhD and now the door's closed.

So yeah, that was a really hard time for us. And to be honest with you, I didn't find an answer to that easily. I did eventually put it on the shelf. you know, with God and just say, Okay, God, I don't I don't get it, so what's my next step? you know.

And so I started on a journey though that led me the last sixty years or so. And but what is very, very interesting is that when my books began to be published in other countries, and now many of them are published in over 60 languages around the around the world. And so one night I was opening up a box of books from another country. And because we always pray for the country and pray God will use the book. And I looked on the couch and Carolyn was crying.

And I said, honey, what's wrong? And she said, nothing's wrong. I just remember we wanted to be missionaries. And now your books are all over the world. And I cried.

And I said, okay, God. I finally get it. You know, I finally get it.

So sometimes we go through the valleys and we don't ever understand why. But sometimes we do later on get the picture.

So I've often said to people, If God closes the door and really, really frustrates you know what your plans were, just remember God's plans are always better than your plans. And there's probably somebody listening right now who Feels that same way. You feel like you have done everything that God wanted you to do, but the rug was pulled out from under you and you don't know why, and you can't see the next step. I want you to listen to Dustin Crow today and listen to that story from Gary, because those feelings of having the rug pulled out from under you, you can't do what you thought God wanted you to do. Those feelings are real.

And Dustin is going to come alongside us today. He serves as the discipleship pastor at Stone's Crossing Church, just outside of Indianapolis. Graduate of Moody Bible Institute, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. He's written several books, including the one we talked with him about last time when it came out, The Grumbler's Guide to Giving Thanks. He and his wife have two young children.

Our featured resource at buildingrelationships.us is his latest. Your wilderness is not a waste. Find out more at buildingrelationships.us.

Well, Dustin, welcome back to Building Relationships. Thanks for having me on.

So let's jump into this uh topic because I think a lot of our listeners are probably right there in the wilderness. But first, uh define the word. What do you mean by wilderness? Yeah, maybe a simple definition I went with is kind of any trials, troubles, temptations. But specifically, you see wildernesses in the Bible and a few characteristics.

One was a lack of resources.

So it's not like a city where you can go get your food and water easily.

So there's a lack of resources where you become really dependent. On God to provide. And then, and maybe also a season of waiting.

So you're kind of stuck. When we think about the wilderness generation, you know, they weren't in Egypt, but they also weren't in Canaan. They were in this land of being in between. And so many wilderness stories, even like the one you shared, we don't yet know where God's sending us, and we're confused and lost, so we're waiting on Him.

So those are maybe some characteristics that are common. I think our people can identify with uh some of those. Most of maybe most of us can identify with one of those.

So were there any wilderness lessons that you learned personally, either before or as you worked on this book? Yeah, I mean, as we were doing, a couple that were going on, you know, we had our second child. My wife was going through some postpartum depression, and we were sensing God leading us to be closer to family, but that was hard because we loved the church we were at. And so we kind of were praying, Lord, where are you going to send us? And for a while, that wasn't clear.

And so that's part of that sense of. Being stuck, and at times that even felt frustrating. Like, why do we sense that you're moving us forward and yet not giving clarity? You're not giving an open door, and why do we have to leave these people?

So, that was part of what was going on. And then, meanwhile, at the same time, my dad got cancer. He battled through cancer, ended up passing away. And then, really, just less than a year ago, my mom died from cancer as well.

So, those two losses of my parents, you know, I'm 42, feels young. That's been very painful.

So, just experiencing God still being with me in a season that I really don't want with circumstances that are hard and painful, and yet seeing that He is still a good shepherd who does have me here for good reasons, and He's been with me and He's been kind, even though it's really, really hard.

Well I think losing mom and dad, particularly at your age in the forties, because you hope your parents are going to keep on living for a long time.

Now you mentioned the wilderness in the Bible, you know, that the Israelites went through. Are there other illustrations of wildernesses in the Bible? And if so, what are some of the aspects of that? Mm-hmm. Yeah, there are a lot of different, you know, we think of like characters as well.

So, like Hagar, and by characters, these are real people, but we can call them characters: Hagar, David, Elijah, Moses.

So, part of what's interesting for me when I was reading scripture is. Every one of those had some commonalities, some hardship, suffering, kind of disillusioned, but they also were very unique. And so, with me, that was encouraging to see, you know, whenever we are suffering. There are probably some things where my suffering and your suffering are going to be similar, but they're also unique to what we're going through.

So, you know, to give an example, Hagar, first one we meet in scripture, and she's not one of the people we'd think about. That, like, you know, she's not Abraham, she's not Sarah, but God meets her in the wilderness when she runs away in the midst of her pain. And she experienced this God she's heard about, and she actually gets to name God. It's the first person to name God that you are a God who hears. You're God who sees me.

And so her pain and suffering led to actually knowing who God was. Experiencing him as a friend. And so the wilderness is where that worship was started. Where do we get the idea that life is supposed to be trouble-free, or that if you follow God, you'll have everything fixed and everything's going to be easy? Where do we get that idea in the first place?

Yeah, that is a good question. And it could be some of that is, you know, I've thought about this as a pastor and struggled with it.

Some of it maybe is teaching that has permeated the church that really emphasizes the blessings of following God. And that's certainly true that there are blessings with God, especially his promises and his presence. But that doesn't mean, as we know, all things work out the way we want. Jesus told us, you know, you will have troubles. But even for me, you know, I have, I think I have good theology in place.

I know suffering is normal, but every time I go through it, my gut reaction is still like, oh, something's wrong. Or where are you, God? Or why aren't you doing something clear or better, making this easier?

So there's something in our gut that just doesn't like suffering and hardship and pain. And my first impulse is like, okay, God, what aren't you doing in this moment?

So some of that is just our flawed response. Yeah, yeah.

Now the subtitle of your book is God's Purpose in Suffering and Struggles.

So are you saying that we can always understand God's purposes or make sense of what's happening in the wilderness. I don't think you're saying that. Wh what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, no, I wouldn't say, you know, I think your story was a good example of. There are sometimes we go through something again, it could be a trial, it could be suffering, it could be a loss, and maybe around that time or shortly after, we kind of get a glimpse.

Oh, I think I know what God was doing, or I can see some good purposes in this, and that's always you know, I'm always thankful for that. But I think all of us probably could identify maybe some unanswered prayers or some forms of trials where in this life. We really just don't have the explanation. And that's part of learning to trust God. And so, no, it's not that we always know why we're going through what we're going through, but what we do see in story after story after story.

Or in all of those trials, all those wilderness seasons, God always did have good purposes. He was always using it for good. He always had good plans. It wasn't like Israel was lost and now God's like, oh man, what do I do? But we see that God led them there for very specific purposes.

So that's where I think you get a lot of hope from those wilderness stories because God did always have good purposes. Yeah, sometimes we don't see them and sometimes maybe we never see them, you know? Yeah. I think of my sister died at the age of 58 after an eight-year battle with cancer. And I don't think I still understand that.

You know, she left three husbands, three children. And she was a wonderful Christian. She walked with God, you know. What we consider bad things do happen to good people. And uh but we look but we I I think you're right.

We we have to come back to trusting God. You know, there's a there's a little line in a song that says, When you can't see God's hand, Trust his heart. And I think we know that God is a loving God and that You know, when you can't see it. Just trust his heart.

Well, Dustin, there's a biblical pattern of God reversing things. You know, he makes a desert, a garden, for example. How does God turn our wilderness experiences into a place of bounty? Yeah, I think one of the ways we see that, again, a consistent pattern I see in the Bible, in wilderness stories or in stories of trial, is that God's doing two things, really. One, he's growing our faith in him.

And so part of that is learning to trust in him, wait on him, but he's also proving his faithfulness. And so, any trial that I've gone through, sometimes that's longer than I want, but God is showing that I will keep my word, I will keep my promises, I will be good, and I will be faithful. And so, part of the blessing isn't necessarily how circumstances turn out or change, but it's in the midst of that, having my faith grown as I trust in the Lord and lean into him. And then also seeing more of who he is, that he did provide in little ways, or he took care of me, or he kept his word, or he gave encouragements along the way. And so, I saw him more clearly, and my faith grew in the midst of a hard season.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh y you say that brokenness uh often precedes usefulness. Uh explain that to us. Yeah, I think this draws.

I use Moses a little bit for this example. You know, we think of Moses, and he was raised in Pharaoh's household. He has this. Beautiful life, we think, this path ahead. And then it all kind of goes south.

After he kills an Egyptian, he hides and he's in the wilderness hiding for the next third of his life for 40 years. But really, what we see in Exodus is that season of Moses being humbled, but then learning to be dependent on the Lord and trust in the Lord, a season of brokenness, that's what God uses to do kind of the big things we think about in the last third of his life.

So you don't have him confronting Pharaoh, you don't have him the burning bush, you don't have leaving Egypt unless you have that middle season in the wilderness where Moses is broken. And I know for me, I've experienced that. Use the example. Yeah, I went to Bible college and seminary, and I'm thankful for that. I learned lots of biblical truths.

But I also just needed to live some life, experience my own failures, and taste God's grace. I needed to see some of the suffering in life. And so, all those things had a way of humbling me, of causing me to turn to others, of helping me be able to comfort other people with the comfort I've received. The things we usually think disqualify us, those are the things that God wants to use us to help others. The things we see as weaknesses and failures, if we take those to God and surrender to Him, He wants to use those very things, our brokenness, to be used in the lives of other people.

Boy, I've seen that many times. 'Cause until we really realize, you know We can't do anything without God. And we have to come, you know, as humble servants of God. And then He uses us. He uses us.

You know, wow. But isn't that part of the struggle that we have, Dustin? Because we see, if you look at people's Facebook, their social media, let's just say, their Christian life social media, it's like everything is success. Everything is, look what I've done for God, you know, look at the great things that I've done for God. And then you look in the scriptures and it's like people made mistakes and they had warts and struggles, and it was God using them in the middle of their inability rather than their ability.

Does that make sense, Dustin? Yeah, for sure. And I think that's part of why you mentioned social media. It can be frustrating because even though we see the best of people on there, that can either make us feel guilty because we think, man, I have all these problems or my life isn't perfect like that. But then when we talk to people, and this is why the body of Christ is so important, when we're with real people on Sunday or small groups or Bible studies and they share their struggles and their failures and the hard things they're going through, that does help us relate because we realize, oh, we all are going through suffering and we all need God's grace.

And so we need that real view of what the Christian life looks like. And we need to be reminded that it's okay to be that way. We don't need to try to put this fake version of ourselves out there. We don't even need to pretend that we're always happy about our life because the Bible gives us freedom to say, no, this is hard and this is tough. And I can lament this to the Lord, but I'm taking it to the Lord.

So, yeah, I think we need more freedom to be honest with one another about those struggles and enter into weakness. Before the Lord. Yeah, yeah.

What what led you to to write this book? You know, obviously you had a sense that a book like this was needed. You know, how can God use hard things for good purposes? Yeah, you asked the question, kind of where do we get that notion that things should be good? And that is part of it.

As a pastor, I felt like I just kept hearing the question and people wouldn't ask it this way. But every time things got hard, it was the question of, well, why is it working out this way? I thought following God meant life would be comfortable and easy, and He would answer my prayers right away. And so I sensed behind those questions kind of disappointment with God or frustration. And so, I think that was this idea to go back to the wilderness generation that they would be right after Egypt is Israel.

They think, oh, it's a direct flight from Egypt to the promised land. And that's kind of our understanding of the Christian life. But when you see they had 40 years of wandering and learning some hard lessons, but good lessons, that's the pattern. And that's what we see throughout scripture: that God isn't going to cause us to skip over seasons of hardship, but He actually intends that for good.

So that was kind of the heart, seeing people being confused by, you know. You know, if God has saved me and God wants good things for my life, why do I have to walk through so many hard and disappointing things?

Well, I can see that. That is greatly needed. And particularly today, not just in, you know, looking back, but when you look back and see it, you know, in Israel, it helps you understand it more fully, I think. But the other thing you emphasize in there is that God promises to befriend us. in the midst of our wilderness journey.

Yeah, I'm so thankful when you talk about, okay, if you say there's still blessing and sorrow or blessing and hardship, again, what does that mean? Does that mean it's fixed right away? And, you know, sometimes God does answer prayer and he does fix or change our circumstances. But my experience, and again, when I think about stories like Hagar and David, especially, their language is the biggest blessing is God's presence, that God actually draws near to us in our pain and he gives us comfort and he gives us hope and he gives us promises. And so because God draws near in our pain, we actually experience him more.

We learn to experience him as As a friend, so again, I think of David, all of his language about suffering and talking about God as refuge.

Well, he only knows God as refuge because the pain causes him to run to God, if that makes sense. Yeah. Well you mentioned some biblical examples already, of course, of Moses and David and Hagar. You mentioned Hagar. For those that are not really all that familiar with Hagar's story, why don't you explain that to us a little more deeply?

Yeah, so Abraham was married to Sarah, but she wasn't able to have a child. And so, kind of the custom was Abraham and Hagar didn't have a child, but that creates this resentment between Sarah and her.

So, essentially, she's kind of mistreated.

So, Hagar flees into the wilderness. And she'll do this twice. She has two scenes where she flees into the wilderness, one when she's pregnant and one with her son. And so both times she's been mistreated. She feels like no one cares about her.

No one understands her story. And in the midst of that, Feeling unseen, unknown, uncared for. God shows up, God cares for her, God draws near, God gives her words of promises and direction. And again, it's such a sweet snapshot of God's grace. and his tenderness to us when we're suffering.

Well, quick story about that. You know, whenever we study God's word, whenever we're teaching others, God is going to use that in our lives. And so when I was working on this material for this book, I was actually teaching a Sunday school class. And I remember that it was Saturday night, and I was supposed to teach on the story of Hagar the next morning. And it was really about that: how God sees us in our pain, and our world's kind of wrecked, but God knows what's going on, and He knows us.

Well, that very night, the Saturday night before I taught, my son, two years old, had an asthma attack. He went into respiratory distress, had to take him to the hospital, and his lungs were not doing well. It was very scary. He had to be lifelined to the hospital. My wife was in the ambulance, and I'm in the car behind.

And you know, that's your worst nightmare. I see him hooked up to these things, and he's just not doing well. And so, when I'm in the car following that ambulance, taking my son to the hospital, the lesson of Hagar was perfectly timed because God just said, just like I saw Hagar in the wilderness, I see you. I know your pain, I know what you're going through, but I am with you, and I will help you, and I will strengthen you. And so.

God carried us through that. He preserved my son, but I was just so thankful for how he used his word to minister to me using Hagar's story.

Well It's amazing, isn't it, that God always uses His Word wherever we are. You'll find it in the Scriptures, typically. We've talked a bit about Moses, and you mentioned the 40 years there between the parting of the Red Sea and going forward. But there are other things, too, about Moses that we can learn lessons from. What are some of those?

Yeah, I think part of why I like Moses' story. Again, I said I'm 42. I don't know what age, middle age is, but I feel kind of like I'm there getting there. And yet you see in Moses' story that he probably has some disillusionment of life didn't go the way he wanted. But you really see how God is training him.

So, similar to the idea of brokenness precedes usefulness, God uses. Moses' backstory, and he uses his time in Midian as a shepherd really to train him. To become Israel's shepherd. And so Moses' story just encouraged me that God will use all the things you go through-good, bad, hard, ugly, the education, all of those things, because what he's doing in the wilderness is he's training you. And you might not yet know what he's going to call you to do or where he's going to lead you, but before he does that, he's training you and preparing you and changing you and teaching you to trust in him.

So I think Moses' story just really points that out. The other thing that comes to my mind, too, is that while he learned all of those things, you know, and then became the great leader, you know, and through him God gave us the Ten Commandments and other things, but Near the end of his life, God told him Uh you're not gonna get to go in the promised land w with uh with the rest of the people. That had to be, that had to be hard on Moses. What do you think? Yeah, that's always a hard story.

I mean, it feels like, man, he did all these things and he doesn't get in. But again, Moses doesn't put up a fight. He trusts the Lord. You know, Moses had sinned. And so that's kind of God's will for him.

But that is a hard lesson, but he did prepare the people to go.

So he was faithful with God, what God called him to do. And he finished the course and he ended his days in the wilderness. But the people didn't. And again, it's a reminder that our story might not turn out exactly the way we want, but God is going to connect our story to the people we're discipling and our children. And so our story is part of a bigger story.

He also had to give somebody else the reins. Since he didn't get to go in the promised land, he had to prepare. And he did a good job with Joshua, didn't he? He did, yeah.

So he prepared him. It's a very similar story to David and Solomon, where David doesn't get to build the temple. He really wants to build, but he passes on kind of the blueprint to Solomon, and Solomon gets to do it.

So there are a lot of things we start or we want to see happen, and it's going to be the people after us that get to see the fruit of our work. Yeah, that's a huge lesson, I think, for those like myself who are older. Yeah. We may not see all the things that we dream of seeing or doing, but that's not necessary that all the thoughts and dreams that we have. But if we do have a dream that we really sense that God is leading us to do, we ought to be looking for somebody that's younger that we can disciple and spend time with and pass that vision along to them.

That makes sense to me. Wow. And the real struggle in that, Gary, is you've got to trust God even more when you can't see what it is you want to see, right? Yeah, absolutely. And we may not see it, you know, because When God plucks a vision or a dream in your heart or your mind, and you're not the one that's going to fulfill it, but you may be the one that plants the seed in someone else, you know, who has not only the vision but has the time and energy and is looking to God and they're going to be used, greatly used of God.

This is the Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman podcast. He's the author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . We're talking with Dustin Crowe about his book, Your Wilderness is Not a Waste, God's Purpose in Suffering and Struggles. Find out more at buildingrelationships.us or go to fivelovelanguages.com.

Dustin, you mentioned not only Moses, but the people of Israel. You know, after the Exodus, that wonderful, amazing thing that God did in bringing them out of Egypt. But they spent 40 years in the wilderness. 40 years. I mean, that's a long time.

What are some of the things that stand out to you about that time for the people of Israel? One of the things that really struck me, you always have these verses that just pop. And I was just intrigued by the fact that when God takes Israel out of Egypt, right away they have some trials. And so it actually says that there is a straight way, but it says that God did not take them by the way that was near. Because he actually wants to take them on the long and winding path.

So, again, it's a long way. It's going to take them 40 years, partly because of their sin. But even before they had been unfaithful or grumbled. It says that God takes them on the long, round, winding way. And it seems like what's very clear is because God has things to teach them along the way.

Part of that is they're bringing Egypt with them. They're bringing their idols. They're bringing some bad patterns. They're bringing their sin. And God has to transform them.

Some of that is God has to prove, I can provide your daily manna. I can lead you. I can protect you.

So God has all these good lessons along the way for them in the wilderness. But again, it's at his pace. And so part of what I see is when God moves, they move. But it requires a lot of waiting and trusting. And each time they land at a location, sometimes there's a bit of water.

Sometimes there's no water.

Sometimes there's no food. But every one of those was a chance for God to prove himself. To say, look, I can provide for you. Look, I have good plans for you here.

So trust me. And we've mentioned that word so much, but he's calling us to trust him and to lean into him when we arrive at that place in the road where we just don't understand it. Yeah. So God's timetable is not always our timetable, is one of the things I hear you saying. And in that time, he's doing things.

He's revealing himself to us, and he's building his relationship with us.

So, yeah, how amazing. Why do we tend to feel our helplessness and sometimes desperation most acutely when we're in a situation that you're describing as a wilderness? Because there are things that we just can't do, so again, different struggles that could be financial, you know, if we just don't have the money or the funds or the resources, then we feel our dependence. Or maybe it's a lack of wisdom or lack of energy or lack of strength. But whatever it is in a trial where we feel like, I can't fix this, I can't change this, I can't make this better.

That's that place of desperation where we realize, okay, I really do need God's help. And, you know, we live every day and we are dependent on God, but it's not until we start to suffer. It's not until we're facing a trial where we're overwhelmed or anxious or fearful. That's when we realize it. And so those are kind of that moment where we can either say, okay, I'm going to trust in self, I'm going to trust in the idol, or no, I'm going to trust in God alone because He has me here to help me and support me and carry me through.

Yeah. So, our desperation leads us to realize we've got, I've got to turn to God. I'm not going to be able to pull this off, you know. Yeah, I've always been touched by what Jesus said in John 15, I'm the vine, you're the branches, you stay connected, you bear fruit. And then he says, without me, you can do nothing.

And sometimes God has to get us to that place where we realize without Him, we can't make it. We're not going to do we're going to make it. But we turn to Him, and then we get the wisdom and the strength and all the rest of it. Yeah, powerful, powerful.

Now, you also mentioned Elijah. Uh he was ready to give up in the wilderness, Elijah. What are a few things that he teaches us about enduring seasons of drought and despair? Yeah, one of the things I like about Elijah, I like this story, how honest it is, because I think a misconception with what we're talking about is just to say, well, like everything's going to work out.

So just put a smile on it. And we're saying, no, there is a realistic picture in scripture that life is hard and we really do get discouraged. And so Elijah lands at this place where he's sitting under a tree and he really throws in the towel and he says, I'm done, Lord. Like I was faithful. I tried to bring about change.

Nothing happened. And so he kind of gives up.

So part of what we learn is God's immediate response. You know, God doesn't respond with anger. He doesn't point out all the faulty thinking in Elijah, but is just gracious. He provides for him sleep, food. He's very gracious to Elijah.

And then he takes him on top of a mountain and he teaches them, the way I work is not the way you expect. It's not in the loud symbols and the lightning. It's through small and subtle change. It's through the still small whisper.

So Elijah is given a lot of patience. And grace and mercy in the midst of his discouragement. But he's kind of told: you need a perspective, you need God's perspective of how he works. Which, as we said, it's not according to our timetable, but it's also sometimes not in the way we think or where we're looking. That would be one lesson from Elijah.

I've always found it interesting that God told him, sleep and eat. And then sleep and eat two different times. And sometimes in our culture, in which we are just so driven to go, go, go, go, go, God has to say sleep and eat, sleep and eat, so that he calms us down, slows us down long enough to get a message from him. And there's a lot of listeners who are really struggling with the sleep thing. I get an email from a listener who said, would you pray for me?

I've been on this medication and I just am not able to get a good night's sleep. And that's where a lot of people are.

So, Dustin, when you're in that kind of, you're in the wilderness and you want to do what God wants you to do, but you can't get the sleep, that's really frustrating, isn't it? Yeah, it's kind of funny you mentioned that.

So when I was writing this book, I really was in a season of not being able to sleep well. Again, kind of my pattern is, let's say, I wake up at 2 or 3 a.m. You know, first, I try to pray. You know, God, I know I'm going to need sleep the next day and I ask for sleep. And sometimes I would fall back to sleep.

But there were a lot of nights during this season of writing this book where I couldn't go back to sleep. And so I would try to leverage those moments. I'd get up, read my Bible, pray, you know, work on this book. And one of the things I felt like God was teaching me in that season, because it'd be easy for me some days to be frustrated, like, why aren't you giving me sleep? Or why don't you answer that prayer?

How do I find rest when I'm tired and weary? Is he was kind of saying, consider what I'm doing. when you can't see what I'm doing. You know, you're focused on not providing you with sleep or what you don't have, but I'm using this season to really pour myself into you and give you strength and rest. That's not from sleep, it's from Him.

So I just kept saying, consider what I'm doing when you can't see what I'm doing. I think that's what he was telling Elijah in his story. And so, for me, in my sleeplessness, I kind of tried to think with a new perspective.

Okay. How might God use this moment, this hardship of not sleeping, whatever trial we're in? What might God be doing? What might He be teaching me? How do I see and focus on those things instead of what I don't like and what I feel like He's not doing?

Some of those times then when you couldn't sleep and you got up and worked on the on the book, on this book that we're discussing, were those times in which Things really flowed with the book when you were working on something in the middle of the night. Yeah, for me, when I have those seasons of sleeplessness, they can be hard because I can be tired, but I do experience because it forces me to get up. And for me, I want to use that time if I can't sleep. I want to either pray or open my Bible, partly because what happens I think at night when we wake up is naturally maybe we're struggling with stress or anxiety or worry. And if you just lay there in bed without sleeping, that's just going to build and build.

Like you're just feeding the stress and anxiety that's keeping you awake. And so, what I need in those moments is to pray to God, to cast my cares on Him, to open His Word. And what I felt like in that season is night after night or morning after morning, God was really drawing near, teaching me in his word. And so that became a very sweet season, even though I was kind of tired. And then what I also noticed is every day he gave me the strength I needed for that day.

I never really felt like, oh man, because I didn't sleep, I just can't make it. I was tired, but God gave me the daily bread, the daily strength I needed every day because he was the one I felt like kind of waking me up, getting me into his word. Yeah. You know, the thing that I struggle with, Augustine, is if I'm Joseph, say in the Old Testament, and I can see I got thrown in a pit, I get sold into slavery, I get into Potiphar's house, I'm thrown into prison, you know, I'm unjustly accused, but the end result is everybody's saved. You know, my family is saved from this famine that has come there.

So it's like I can make sense of it. And so, what I try to do in my own life is. Try to figure out, okay, God, what are you doing here? And so I try to figure him out and make sense out of this, and I cling to that. And what I've come up with is that's not really faith in God, that's faith in my control and my ability to figure out what he's doing.

Faith is simply saying, Okay, I can't figure this out, and I'm not going to try to figure all of you out, God, and what you're doing here. I'm just going to trust you. And there's that word again. Dustin, what do you think of that? Yeah, I think that's good.

I think it is okay to pray and ask, and you know, you're opening up the Bible and you're journaling and you're asking, God, is there something you do want to teach me or show me? Help me to see it. That is a good prayer. And sometimes God might kind of give you direction. But, like we've said, there's some seasons where maybe you can't see it because you're in the thick of it.

You're in the darkness, so you can't see. But then there are some circumstances where you might never see. And so, yeah, I think part of why these stories in scripture we need to read them again and again because they keep telling us, well, trust God, trust His heart, trust His promises, don't trust. Because he's given you the answer. Don't trust because you know how it's going to work out.

Don't trust because you know the next step. Trust God. And you see how it does pay off for them again and again in the Bible. And we can look back at our own life, and we've seen that to be true when God has been faithful in seasons. And so we have to trust Him now.

Even though I can't see what He's doing, I trust Him. Dustin, in the book you talk about people who are in the wilderness, and you're saying, you know, you have to talk. about Jesus, you do in the book. Wilderness and Jesus. Wilderness and Jesus.

How does Jesus fit into this theme? A couple of ways. Yeah, any book, if you're dealing with people in the Bible, it probably should have Jesus. And I think every story does connect to Jesus. But, you know, we were talking just a few minutes ago about that idea that sometimes in this life, We don't have the reason, or we don't have the answer.

And I think part of why Jesus is so important is because we're told there's suffering in this life. And sometimes that will never be fixed.

Sometimes you won't have healing.

Sometimes there might not be the prayer answered the way you think. But the promise is. That one day Jesus will come back and then all things will be made right and will be fixed.

So I think part of the struggle for us as Christians is we think that promise that Jesus will undo the wilderness and make all things a blessing and bounty and plentiful. We think that needs to apply right now to our life. But scripture makes clear we'll experience that in part now, but really it's one day when Jesus returns, then all those things, the wilderness will be wiped away and we'll just be back to the garden.

So that's one way Jesus fits because he does undo the wilderness completely. And I think that should give us hope right now that even if he doesn't fix this now, he will one day fix this. Yeah. I think, you know, we use our minds and we tend to be logical and we want answers. You know, why doesn't God lead us according to what makes the most sense to us?

I mean. Yeah, because he's wiser and smarter. Yeah. And then that's how we feel. That's such a good way to put it.

Because when we are in a situation, you know, sometimes it feels like.

Well, God, I'm asking for this, and this is such a good thing in my mind. Like, it just makes sense that you would answer. It makes sense that, let's say, I'm in a really hard job that I don't like, or maybe it's not providing for my family, or I'm not being treated well. It makes sense to me that God would move me out. And so I'm asking Him for that.

But that's where it goes back to God is wise. He might have purposes there that I don't yet see. He might be teaching me endurance. He might be teaching me to trust him. And he might be planning on changing it.

And I just have to be patient and wait. But God knows all the things he's doing, and we don't. And so, so often, I have to remind myself that even though it feels like this is the way God should do it, I'm not God and He is. And I should trust Him more than I trust my common sense or what I think how things should go. You know, that reminds me, I'm really grateful that God doesn't always answer our prayers by giving us what we ask for.

I remember in high school I was in love with this gal, dated her three years in in love. I went off to college and she wrote me a Dear John letter. We're too far apart. We need to go our separate ways. And I was brokenhearted.

And I prayed and prayed, Oh, God, please change her mind. Lord, open her eyes. You know, I'm the one for her. I'm glad God didn't answer that prayer. Or I wouldn't be married to my wife that I have now.

So sometimes we're asking God to do it our way. And that was very frustrating for me. It was a wilderness because I was having trouble studying. You know, here I was at Moody Bible Institute trying to s t study and couldn't get my mind on the what I was trying to learn because of that. God doesn't always answer things the way we think it should be answered, but His ways are always better than our ways.

I'll come back to that. Yeah. Well, at the end of each chapter in the book, you include some questions and ways to respond to what folks have just read. Why do you think it's so important to have a respon not just to read a book, but to have a response to what we're reading? I think part of that is maybe it's my philosophy of education or even reading scripture.

I think our tendency is whether we're reading a book or listening to a sermon is we kind of settle for information. Like, oh, that was good, or I learned a couple of things and then we move on. But the way we really learn and are change is by doing something with our knowledge.

So, again, in school, you learn a principle and then you have homework and you have a test to put into practice. And so, I think whether it's reading a book or hearing a sermon, we really need to think about how is God calling me to respond to this? Like, if God has just taught me from His Word who He is, if He's given me a promise, if He's given me hope and suffering, I need to just think, Well, that's good to know, but how do I actually apply that to my life? How do I respond? And so, that's part of why I put responses in there to give people very specific ways to say, Okay, what do we do with that?

What do we do with that in our dark days and our discouragement? Because we need to do that. And I would say we also need to do it in community. You know, when we're discouraged and anxious and worried and depressed, part of the problem is we're isolated. But when we talk about this in community and we're trying to apply it together, We have a lot of reason for hope.

We hear from one another, encouragement.

Well, God has been faithful in my life in this way.

So we need to be responding, but we also need to be responding in community. You know, I'm glad you mentioned that because I really, really think every Christian needs to be in a small group, you know, of Christians and working through the scriptures, working through books like this. And this book is ideal for that because everybody goes through times of wilderness. And to be in a group like that, where we're being honest and open and sharing our heart and sharing where we are and have folks who are walking with us through the journey is so important. And because the Christian life was not designed to be lived in isolation.

You know, we're not Lone Rangers. We're members of a community. And some people think that the... The only thing you need to do as a Christian is just go to church every Sunday. And you sit there with a whole group of people, everybody's sharing their message, but There's no time that you discuss it.

You're not in a small group where there's time for uh interfacing with each other.

So wow, I think that's so important. And this book lends itself to that.

So thank you for uh for that. And I think uh those uh responses that you suggest there at the end of each chapter are going to be helpful.

Well, thank you. I think part of what happens in the wilderness is that's where we're most prone to believe those lies. We are isolated. And so, what happens is people think, well, I'm the only one that feels this way or has these doubts or goes through these struggles. And really, that just breeds, again, guilt, hurt, pain, turning from God.

And so, that's part of why we need community. We realize, oh, other people have these questions and struggles and concerns. And so, you don't feel so isolated and alone, and you don't start believing the lies that it's because you're a failure or you've done something wrong.

So, it allows us to walk in the lie instead of being in the darkness. Yeah. So Dustin, as we come to the end of our time together, talk to the person who feels like they've tried hard to do everything right, but all the wheels have come off their life. What would you say to that person? Yeah, my encouragement would be: I think what we see from story after story of scripture, Old Testament, New Testament, is that is a common experience for God's people.

But it's not a common experience because God is distant or because God is far from you or because you have failed. God actually intends to be present in all those seasons.

So he wants to draw near, he wants to prove his faithfulness to you, he wants to grow your faith in him. And I think all those stories in scripture give us hope because we see the other side. We see them come through it, we see them grow, we see God prove himself in powerful ways. And I know you're no exception: that God will do that in your life, in your story. The wilderness is not a waste, he will prove himself to you there.

Well, Dustin, I want to thank you for being with us today. Thank you also for the effort that you put into this book. I know that books like this aren't written freely.

Sometimes there's a lot of time and energy and even struggle sometimes going through.

So thanks for the investment you've made in the lives of others through this book and for being with us today on Building Relationships. Thank you. I appreciate it. I'm thankful for the sleepless nights when he had to get up and work on this. Our purpose today was to give you a little bit of hope with the wilderness that maybe is in your life right now.

So if you go to buildingrelationships.us, you will see Dustin's book, Dustin Crow, Your Wilderness is Not a Waste, God's Purpose in Suffering and Struggles. Again, find out more at buildingrelationships.us. And next week, your questions about your relationships. Let us hear from you on the listener line. You can call right now.

That's 1-866-424-4279. Before we go, let me thank our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Backing. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in Chicago in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening.