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Well, what are the lies that could destroy your marriage? Man, if I can deal with myself first in those moments that I'm frustrated, and that's why I love God's power. When we stop, we go to Him, He'll meet us there and help us to get our heart open. Then we're safe enough to deal with the relationship. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr.
Gary Chapman, author of The New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Like the whispers of the serpent in the garden, dangerous lies have arisen in the culture and in churches about marriage. What are the nine lies destroying marriages today and how can you overcome them? Dr. Greg Smalley is going to join us today on this summer best of conversation, which originally aired back on Valentine's Day in February.
Our guest is co-author of a book that will help marriages in crisis as well as those couples who want to prevent a marriage breakup. You can find out more at buildingrelationships.us. Gary, I think today's resource is going to resonate with a lot of married couples who are listening. What do you think?
Well, I'm sure that's true, Chris. You know, it's dealing with issues that are very common in marriages. And so it's a great book, and I'm excited about discussing it with Greg today.
Well let's meet our guest again. Dr. Greg Smalley serves as the Vice President of Marriage and Family Formation at Folks on the Family. He's written many books including Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage, which is also the title of his podcast, Reconnected, Moving from Roommates to Soulmates in Marriage, and our featured resource today is the book Nine Lies That Will Destroy Your Marriage and The Truths That Will Save It and Set It Free. You can find out more at buildingrelationships.us.
Well, Greg, it's so good to have you back. You know, all of us, of course, and our listeners remember your dad, Gary Smalley, and we're just glad to have you now doing all sorts of things on marriage and family, and today, especially being with us today, to discuss this new book, which I'm really excited about.
So thanks for being with us. Oh, my absolute honor. I've loved the years that I've gotten to know you. You are one of my heroes. My dad, Gary, you, Gary, Gary Thomas.
Everybody calls me Gary. I sign books on behalf of your books.
So it's fun to actually do this with you.
So thanks for having me on.
Well, now the last time you were with us, you and your wife, Erin, talked about preparing for marriage. That was a long time ago. Give us an update on the Smalley family and what you're up to these days. Yeah, we, Aaron, and I now have been married 33 years, so we have four. Adult kids, we just got our very first grandchild, so a little grandson named Josiah.
So we're loving that as a new season. And then it's been such a fun time for us. Erin is just finishing up her dissertation, so she'll be Dr. Erin. And that's just been so much fun to come alongside and just support her and help her.
Through that process.
So we just had a sweet season being new grandparents and just getting to work together. Most everything we do here focus. Erina and I get to get to do together and she's my best friend and I just love this this season that we're in.
Well, it's always exciting when your children are adults and out, you know, and then you have a grandchild.
So I can identify with that. We keep telling our kids we love them, but we really, really, really love our grandson.
So that's who we want to spend time with. All right, so we're going to go through the nine lies that you talk about in this book. But tell us the genesis of the book.
Now, you wrote it with Robert Paul, so how did all this come about? Yeah, when I was finishing my doctorates, I was on an internship in Springfield, Missouri. My wife, Erin, was in graduate school becoming a counselor, and she kept saying, You've got to meet this professor of mine. You guys would hit it off. And I'm an introvert, so I hate people.
So I kept going, I don't want to meet him, just leave me alone. As I heard his heart, we both had the same heart to go. Man, we'd love to help develop. An extended day program for couples in crisis, and how can we bring them into the Branson area and really work with them? Over extended days, couples who were in crisis, who were about to divorce, And so we started doing that together.
We built a team and we started doing marriage intensives with couples. And along the way, just started learning. A lot of things about what was working, what wasn't working. And that's when we started to realize that a lot of the times these Christian couples, these, you know, they loved the Lord, loved each other, but they had just bought into.
Some lies. They were really trying to make certain strategies work that sound right. that we're taught seem to be Useful in a marriage, but in the end, it just doesn't work. And so that's really as we, you know, that was 25 years ago. We started doing marriage intensives.
Now we've seen over 15,000 couples go through what's called hope restored, and it's about an 80% success rate. And so we just really taken what we've learned over those years to say, Hey, how about let's talk about these strategies, these lies that just really don't work. They're not gonna get us. The kind of marriage that we both long for. And so instead of buying into the lie, what does that truth look like?
How could we do this a little bit different? And so that's really the nature of what we do in these marriage intensives: is try to point out some of these lies and really delve into the truth to do it a different way. Yeah. Essentially, there's a background, a long background to this book. The experience you had in those intensives.
Yeah. Yeah. Now, the startling thing that caught my eye is that you believe these lies aren't just in the culture. But sometimes they're in the church as well.
So address that issue. Yeah, definitely. Like culturally, one of the big ones that I hear all the time, like Aaron and I. Coming out of the Christmas season, watched all these Hallmark Christmas movies. And I'm telling you, I can put money that you're always going to hear the line: I just want you to be happy.
That's really all we want for our kids. That's all we want for our spouse. Just experience happiness. That's a horrible goal. I'm not against happiness.
So I'm not anti-happy. It's just that that's not the goal that we should be pursuing. That's not what we should be teaching our kids: is that marriage is about both of us feeling happy.
So, I mean, culturally, we've bought into that. I think unique to the Christian culture, maybe an example would be something like: you know, you take like in Ephesians 4:26 and 27: don't let the sun go down on your anger. Because we don't want the devil to get a foothold.
So, how we've applied that. Mistakenly, how we've tried to make that work is to say, hey, when Aaron and I are fighting, we have to stay up until. We resolve this. And that's a good example of taking a scripture verse, misunderstanding it, that becomes a terrible strategy. In our marriage, I mean, some of the best ways to manage conflict is to, when your heart is shut down and you're feeling that anger.
I shouldn't be talking to my wife about that. I need to go deal with me, get my own heart open. And once my heart's open, oh, then Aaron and I can work through whatever relational issue. But that's an example of how we've taken something. that's become a strategy that doesn't work.
And there are lots of those within the church. Again, all well-meaning. No one's out to destroy marriage. We just unfortunately have heard things, learned things that sound.
Sort of right, they just don't work if they worked. We wouldn't be writing about it. Let's keep doing the stuff that works. If it if it's just not effective, let's understand that and do something different. Yeah.
Now we're gonna we're gonna go through all nine of these lies and and the program today, but are there a couple that uh seem to affect uh most marriages that are just really, really common? Yeah, I would, like I said, I think the happiness one, like we hear things like a happy wife, a happy life. I hate that. Because what that says inadvertently to, especially to a wife, is that. My happiness is dependent upon your mood.
So, if you're not happy, I'm not going to be at a good place.
So, you need to get to a better place so that I can. feel okay versus me saying to my wife, you know what, when you're having a hard day. When you're not doing well, it's okay because I can be at a good place. In kids, it's okay if mom has a hard moment. We can.
Be okay. In our mood, our experience doesn't have to be dependent upon where Aaron's at or anyone else for that matter in the relationship. And so, I mean, that's a big one that we hear. I think the other one in Dr. Chapman, this is where I think how people misuse your beautiful five love languages is that we've converted that idea.
Of love language into a need. Like your job is to meet my needs, and here's five that you need to do, or whatever. And I know, because you and I have had this conversation before, that was never your intent. You know, a need is air, is water, is shelter. My very well-being is dependent upon, you know, me breathing and eating and having water.
You know, we mistakenly, I think, often refer to these relational wants and desires that we have as needs. Because if it's a true need, then I have every right to demand that Aaron Does that job? Like, if I'm telling her, hey, you know, I need sex. And it's your job to then make sure you're doing that.
Well, the the reality is I don't think any of us have ever heard of a single time a man or a woman has died because they weren't having sex. It's a great need, an important desire. Like, I'm pro-sex. within my marriage. And I always tell people, I need God.
I don't need Aaron. I do not need my wife. I need God. I want my wife, and I want. To live my life with her, and I want to learn how I can best love her as her assistant, but at the end of the day, You know, God has put me in charge of my well-being.
That's the greatest commandment. I mean, He's clear. That's not Aaron's job, that's mine.
So I think that's another big one: is that we just throw that term: well, I need this from you. And therefore, I'm going to spend my time getting you to do whatever that might be. You know, again, using "The 5 Love Languages" . But I know, right? I know that was not your intent, was to say, Yeah, your spouse needs these and you got to figure out then how to do your job.
Yeah, you're exactly right. We're all self-centered, however. Right. And that's where that comes from. You know, if I'm the important one here, you know, you need to be speaking my love language.
This is the important thing. Right. Right. Incidentally, that's what motivated me to write a new book that I wrote with Les and Leslie Parrott. It's called The Love Language That Matters Most.
The most important love language. is the love language of your spouse. Not demanding that they meet your needs. You focus on being God's instrument to meet their emotional need for love. I love that.
I agree wholeheartedly. We we try to weaponize concepts like that to to in and build it around a need that I'm then justified of of making sure that you're doing your job. And it's just again, I just say argue, it just doesn't work. That way, there's a much better way to go about that.
So, man, I can't wait to see your new book.
Well, Greg, we're talking about the nine lies. You know, that's the title, part of the title of the book, that marriages people believe.
So let's just go over those, briefly list them for us. We're going to dig into some of them a little deeper later on. But what are the nine lies? Yeah, the one is the primary purpose of marriage is to bring happiness and personal fulfillment. Another one is that once two individuals become one in their marriage, they cease being two individuals, and really the priority then becomes.
The marriage relationship. We've seen love lie number three. We say it this way: that true love. Is about either chemistry or about commitment. And then another love lie, number four, is sacrifice is the key to a godly life.
in a godly marriage. And I can't wait to get in and talk about that because, again, that's man, wait, that's exactly what Jesus talks about. But I think that we've misapplied that. Love Light Number Five is a great marriage is one where spouses meet each other's deepest needs for love and intimacy, kind of as we've already talked about. Love Light Number Six, man, this is where my wife Erin and I ugh.
This is we struggled with this one, and it really says the significant or irreconcilable differences inevitably drive couples apart.
So, I want to talk about how that really played out for Aaron and I. Love light number seven is when both spouses. open to each other and practice kind of the best Intimacy growing techniques that they'll have this deep connection that they long for. And so, I want to give a different way of looking at how do we truly create the deepest level of connection and intimacy. And then Love Light number eight.
Is it certain emotions? especially expressed with uh intensity, are dangerous. And they are completely untrustworthy. And I would say that's another one that's very unique. to our Christian culture, that that somehow, for some reason, Even though God created us with all these emotions, that we say, man, we can't pay attention to them.
There They're untrustworthy.
So let's talk about emotions. And then the final one: love light number nine. Is since spouses are different and conflict is inevitable, compromise is an essential part. Of how we deal with conflict. And so, I want to talk really about this idea of compromise and what that can do.
If that's our focus.
So that's kind of a a big overview of the nine.
Okay, so let's get personal. You and Erin, as you mentioned earlier, have been married for a number of years now. have adult children and a grandchild. Have any of these lies cropped up in your own marriage? And if so, what did you do about it?
How did you overcome them? Yeah, I would say especially love line number six, and this idea that our lack of being able to manage our differences is what drives couples apart. You know, Aaron and I, we just didn't handle conflict well early in our marriage. It's where we struggled. And I got to the place to where.
I thought it was because of all of all how Erin is so different from me. She's an extrovert, I'm an introvert. You know, just gender differences, family of origin differences, lifestyle differences. She loves to have every light on. In our home at the same time.
And that just drives me crazy because I'm like, hey, when you come out of a room, just put the lights out. Like if you're not there, you're costing us money. And so you think about just all these differences. And I think what what happened for for me and Aaron is that we started seeing the differences as the problem. Where the truth is that God made us so very different.
And that's a beautiful thing. And He doesn't create mistakes. And it's not the differences between Aaron and I that were ever the problem. It was how we tried to manage and work through those differences. that was the big problem.
And so I think for us, we had to get to a place to where, like, for me, I I I really became Committed to saying, God, thank you for how different you've made Aaron. And I know there's times that I don't understand how her brain works. I don't understand why she wants what she wants. But thank you. For creating her the way you have, because it brings so much richness to my life and to our marriage.
And then Aaron and I really started to focus on how do we manage our conflict better. And therefore, we just, that's what transformed our marriage: that we just over time started learning.
Some really important things to do as we were having conflict versus. Just going, well, the problem is if you just would change, if you just would become different, if you weren't so. Extroverted, my life would be such so peaceful, and and and and it just you know, and and I don't want to show up that way, I want. My wife to know that I cherish the differences between us, that I see the value. that that they bring to to me and our marriage.
And let's figure out how to repair conflicts when it happens.
So that was a big one for us. That really, really showed up. Can I ask you a question about that? Just that, because my guess is there are couples listening right now who are very different because everybody's different in some way. But I was listening to a book the other day, and it was the Guttmacher Institute had done this.
uh research that said That the fellow who did it said, I can spend a half hour with a couple and see if they're going to make it or not. I don't know if you've ever heard this, Greg, but the deciding factor was contempt. If the person was talking, let's say the wife is talking. and the person sees the husband roll his eyes. Or have this physical reaction of, ah, you know, palm to the forehead.
He said, if you see contempt in the relationship, Because of the differences or whatever it is that they're dealing with, then he said it's probably a good sign that this couple's really in trouble.
So did you have contempt for the difference? that Erin, you know, how she wouldn't turn the lights off or whatever it was. And if you did, how did you overcome that? Yeah, I love that. That sounds a lot like what John Gottman would say.
And you think about that contentment. Contentment is when. I'm looking at who she is, and I don't like who she is. Versus, you know How you showed up in this moment, I don't like. I think for me, that one of the best things that I learned is.
Grace. In marriage, one way grace really manifests in a marriage is when I choose. To see who Aaron's been over thirty three years versus how she's showing up in this moment. Like there there are plenty of times that A you know, Aaron's human. And she's going to say things, do things that I don't like.
And and if if if all I ever do Is try to correct that in say, Oh, great, here we go again, and have that contempt that. that Chris that you were talking about. versus going, you know what, I don't I don't like how that felt. But man, I know who my wife is, I know who she's been for 33 years. I one time.
Erin was on just kind of a night out with her girlfriends. And so they're having a great time. And so I was home with our four kids. They were horrible. You know, it's just one of those nights.
Nothing went well. And I was in the middle of writing a book called Fight Your Way to a Better Marriage.
So, really dealing with conflict. And so, I had to get some writing done.
So, I finally get the kids down. And I'm sitting at our kitchen table. I'm just, I'm typing away, and in walks Aaron. And she just happens to glance at the sink because she comes in through the garage, they're right into the kitchen. What do you think she sees?
The dishes. that I forgot to do. And so she just yells out. What am I, the maid? And she just starts doing the dishes.
Well, that so triggered me. In my mind, I'm like, what? You didn't even say hello. If you'd looked to the left, you would have seen all the laundry that I folded. No, you only see what I don't do.
I mean, I just start ramping up in my mind, just going, you know. And by the way, your children, had you asked me about them, I would have told you how terrible they are. And it was in those moments that, first and foremost, if I'm willing. to kind of sit back. And go, God, okay, right now, I oh man, I feel so invisible.
Aaron never sees what I do, and I'm feeling unappreciated. And God, let me bring that to you first. God, give me eyes to remember to see who your daughter is in this moment. Who is Erin? Yeah, for 33 years.
She's so, she sees me. She's so affirming. She's so gracious with. With her words to me, that, yeah, in this moment I don't like what she yelled out. But when we take the time to deal with ourselves first, And a big part of doing that is saying, God, give me eyes to remember who Aaron has been all these years, not for that little comment that she just made.
Well, as I did that, it it calmed me down. I was I was I was able to say, hey uh Aaron, you know, when you yelled out, Am I the maid? Was that directed at me? Because I thought it was. And she, it was beautiful.
She goes, oh no. She goes, Greg, I know you had some writing to do. I told our kids that they had to do the laundry and the dishes. And I can see they didn't do that and I'm frustrated with them.
Well, so had I just gone with my gut and my instinct, I would have then got into a whole thing with her. Why would you say that to me? You never appreciate any, you've been out with your girlfriends, partying it, you know. But instead, dealing with me first, extending her that grace in that moment. Just allowed me to ask, Did you mean this towards me?
And it was cool because then we were like, Now we're against the kids. Let's go get them. Let's go wake them up and make them come in and finish the dishes. And so, for me, that's how that's made a difference: really going, man, if I can deal with myself first in those moments that I'm frustrated and maybe feeling that contempt and fight against that, because Satan wants us to buy into that lie about how I would see Aaron in that moment. And that's why I love God's power.
When we stop. And we go to him. He'll meet us there and help us to get our heart open. Then we're safe enough. to deal with relationship.
I'm sure that our listeners are identifying with what you're talking about because they all have been through that. I don't think anyone has not gone through that. But you know, I think what the idea you said about Thanking God for the differences. Yeah. I don't know that that idea has occurred to a lot of people.
We can come to accept the differences, but to thank God for the differences. But that's really true. I mean, the differences are meant to be positive, not negative, right? They really are. I mean, you know, as a husband, You know, God makes it pretty clear for me that I'm to cherish.
You know, in Ephesians 5:29, to cherish, to nourish her. Cherish is when I get her value, all those differences. And I love using a diamond.
So I got this huge diamond as we speak. I'll hold it up and say, this is who my wife is. And like every single diamond is cut just a little tiny bit different to display the beauty of light, you know, in the same way, God made my wife. in all those little cuts as as a diamond All those differences. I mean, that's how he created her, and it's so beautiful.
And if I'm willing, To say, yeah, how does Erin enrich my life? Yeah, she's frustrating at times. Yeah, she's human. Yeah, she may disappoint me. Yeah, you might be going through a really hard season with your spouse because of a poor choice.
Like, I get it. But that doesn't Take away from what's true. My inability to see her value doesn't change. how valuable God created Aaron to be. And and cherish Just, it allows me to go, that's true.
Look at all these differences and look how they benefit me and my kids. and and our marriage. And God, I I want to thank you. For how you made her the way you did. Like, if we're both the same, how boring?
Like, one of us wouldn't be necessary, right? If we're exactly the same. And so I think it keeps my mind framed on what's truth, which is. And those differences are a good thing. And yeah, let's deal with the way we show up.
In ways that are hurtful. Let's deal with that stuff, but it doesn't change how amazing this person is that I get to spend my life with. Thanks for joining us today for the Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman podcast. We're talking about the nine lies that will destroy your marriage with Dr.
Greg Smalley. He's the co-author of our featured resource today, and you can find out more about it at buildingrelationships.us or go to fivelovelanguages.com.
Well, Greg, we're talking about the nine lies. You know, it's the title, part of the title of the book, that marriages people believe.
So let's just go over those, briefly list them for us. We're going to dig into some of them a little deeper later on. But what are the nine lies? Yeah, the one is the primary purpose of marriage is to bring happiness and personal fulfillment. Another one is that once two individuals become one in their marriage, they cease being two individuals, and really the priority then becomes.
The marriage relationship. We've seen love lie number three. We say it this way: the true love. is about either chemistry or about commitment. And then another love lie, number four, is sacrifice is the key to a godly life.
in a godly marriage. And I can't wait to get in and talk about that because, again, that's man, wait, that's exactly what Jesus talks about. But I think that we've misapplied that. Love Light Number Five is a great marriage, is one where spouses meet each other's deepest needs for love and intimacy, kind of as we've already talked about. Love light number six.
Man, this is where my wife Erin and I ugh. This is, we struggled with this one, and it really says the significant or irreconcilable differences inevitably drive couples apart.
So, I want to talk about how that really played out for Aaron and I. Love light number seven is when both spouses. uh open to each other in practice kind of the best Intimacy growing techniques that they'll have this deep connection that they long for. And so, I want to give a different way of looking at how do we truly create the deepest level of connection and intimacy. And then love line number eight is that certain emotions especially expressed with uh intensity are dangerous.
And they are completely untrustworthy. And I would say that's another one that's very unique. to our Christian culture, that that somehow, for some reason, Even though God created us with all these emotions, that we say, man, we can't pay attention to them. They're untrustworthy. And so let's talk about emotions.
And then the final one: love light number nine. Is since spouses are different and conflict is inevitable, compromise is an essential part. Of how we deal with conflict. And so I want to talk really about this idea of compromise and what that can do. If that's our focus.
So that's kind of a a big overview of the nine.
Okay, so let's get personal. You and Erin, as you mentioned earlier, have been married for a number of years now. have adult children and a grandchild. Have any of these lies cropped up in your own marriage? And if so, what did you do about it?
How did you overcome them? Yeah, I would say especially love light number six, and this idea that our lack of being able to manage our differences is what drives couples apart. You know, Aaron and I, we just didn't handle conflict well early in our marriage. It's where we struggled. And I got to the place to where I thought it was because of all of all how Erin is so different from me.
She's an extrovert, I'm an introvert. You know, just gender differences, family of origin differences, lifestyle differences. She loves to have every light on. in our home at the same time. And that just drives me crazy because I'm like, hey, when you come out of a room, just.
put the lights out. Like if you're not there, you're costing us money. And so you think about just all these differences. And I think what happened for me and Aaron is that we started seeing the differences as the problem. Where the truth is that God made us so very different.
And that's a beautiful thing. And He doesn't create mistakes. And it's not the differences between Aaron and I that were ever the problem. It was how we tried to manage and work through those differences. that was the big problem.
And so I think for us, we had to get to a place to where, like, for me, I I I really became Committed to saying, God, thank you for how different you've made, Aaron. And I know there's times that I don't understand how her brain works. I don't understand why she wants what she wants. But thank you. For for creating her the way you you have, because it brings so much richness to my life and to our marriage.
And then Aaron and I really started to focus on how do we manage our conflict better. And therefore, we just, that's what transformed our marriage: that we just over time started learning.
Some really important things to do as we were having conflict versus. Just going, well, the problem is if you just would change, if you just would become different, if you weren't so. Extroverted, my life would be such so peaceful, and and and and it just you know, and and I don't want to show up that way, I want. My wife to know that I cherish the differences between us, that I see the value. that that they bring to to me and our marriage.
And let's figure out how to repair conflicts when it happens.
So that was a big one for us. That really, really showed up. Can I ask you a question about that? Just that because my guess is there are couples listening right now who are very different because everybody's different in some way. But I was listening to a book the other day, and it was the Guttmacher Institute had done this.
of research that said That the fellow who did it said, I can spend a half hour with a couple and see if they're going to make it or not. I don't know if you've ever heard this, Greg, but the deciding factor was contempt. If the person was talking, let's say the wife is talking. and the person sees the husband roll his eyes. Or have this physical reaction of, ah, you know, palm to the forehead.
He said, if you see contempt in the relationship, Because of the differences or whatever it is that they're dealing with, then he said it's probably a good sign that this couple's really in trouble.
So did you have contempt for the difference That Erin, you know, how she wouldn't turn the lights off or whatever it was. And if you did, how did you overcome that? Yeah, I love that. That sounds a lot like what John Gottman would say. And you think about that contentment, contentment is when.
I'm looking at who she is, and I don't like who she is. Versus, you know How you showed up in this moment, I don't like. I think for me, that one of the best things that I learned is. Grace. In marriage, one way grace really manifests in a marriage is when I choose.
To see who Aaron's been over thirty three years versus how she's showing up in this moment. Like there there are plenty of times that A you know, Aaron's human. And she's going to say things, do things that I don't like. And and if if if all I ever do Is try to correct that and say, Oh, great, here we go again, and have that contempt that. that Chris that you were talking about.
versus going, you know what, I don't I don't like how that felt. But man, I know who my wife is, I know who she's been for 33 years. I one time. Erin was on just kind of a night out with her girlfriends. And so they're having a great time.
And so I was home with our four kids. They were horrible. You know, it's just one of those nights. Nothing went well. And I was in the middle of writing a book called Fight Your Way to a Better Marriage.
So, really dealing with conflict. And so, I had to get some writing done.
So, I finally get the kids down. And I'm sitting at our kitchen table. I'm just typing away, and in walks Erin. And she just happens to glance at the sink because she comes in through the garage, they're right into the kitchen. What do you think she sees?
The dishes. that I forgot to do. And so she just yells out. What am I, the maid? And she just starts doing the dishes.
Well, that so triggered me. In my mind, I'm like, what? You didn't even say hello. If you'd looked to the left, you would have seen all the laundry that I folded. No, you only see what I don't do.
I mean, I just start. Ramping up in my mind, just going, you know, and by the way, your children, had you asked me about them, I would have told you how terrible they are. And it was in those moments. that that first and foremost, if if I'm willing to kind of sit back. And go, God, okay, right now, I, oh man, I feel so invisible.
Aaron never sees what I do, and I'm feeling unappreciated. And God, let me bring that to you first. God, give me eyes to remember to see who your daughter is in this moment. Who is Erin? Yeah, for 33 years.
She's so, she sees me. She's so affirming. She's so gracious with. With her words to me, that, yeah, in this moment, I don't like what she yelled out. But when we take the time to deal with ourselves first, And a big part of doing that is saying, God, give me eyes to remember who Aaron has been all these years, not for that little comment that she just made.
Well, as I did that, it it calmed me down. I was I was I was able to say, hey uh Aaron, you know, when you yelled out, Am I the maid? Was that directed at me? Because I thought it was. And she, it was beautiful.
She goes, oh no. She goes, Greg, I know you had some writing to do. I told our kids that they had to do the laundry and the dishes. And I can see they didn't do that and I'm frustrated with them.
Well, so had I just gone with my gut and my instinct, I would have then got into a whole thing with her. Why would you say that to me? You never appreciate any. You've been out with your girlfriends, partying it, you know. But instead, dealing with me first, extending her that grace in that moment.
Just allowed me to ask, Did you mean this towards me? And it was cool because then we were like, Now we're against the kids. Let's go get them. Let's go wake them up and make them come in and finish the dishes. And so, for me, that's how that's made a difference: is really going, man, if I can deal with myself first in those moments that I'm frustrated and maybe feeling that contempt and fight against that, because Satan wants us to buy into that lie about how I would see Aaron in that moment.
And that's why I love God's power. Did he when we stop? We go to him. He'll meet us there and help us to get our heart open. Then we're safe enough.
to deal with The relationship. I'm sure that our listeners are identifying with what you're talking about because they all have been through that. I don't think anyone has not gone through that. But you know, I think what the idea you said about thanking God for the differences. Yeah.
I don't know that that idea has occurred to a lot of people. We can come to accept the differences, but to thank God for the differences. But that's really true. I mean, the differences are meant to be positive, not negative, right? They really are.
I mean, you know, as a husband, You know, God makes it pretty clear for me that I'm to cherish You know, in Ephesians 5:29, to cherish, to nourish her. Cherish is when I get her value, all those differences. And I love using a diamond.
So I got this huge diamond as we speak. I'll hold it up and say, this is who my wife is. And like every single diamond is cut just a little tiny bit different to display the beauty of light, you know, in the same way God made my wife. in all those little cuts as as a diamond All those differences. I mean, that's how he created her, and it's so beautiful.
And if I'm willing, To say, yeah, how does Erin enrich my life? Yeah, she's frustrating at times. Yeah, she's human. Yeah, she may disappoint me. Yeah, you might be going through a really hard season with your spouse because of a poor choice.
Like, I get it. But that doesn't Take away from what's true. My inability to see her value doesn't change. how valuable God created Aaron to be. And and cherish Just, it allows me to go, that's true.
Look at all these differences, and look how they benefit. me and and and my kids and our marriage. And God, I want to thank you. For how you made her the way you did. Like, if we're both the same, how boring?
Like, one of us wouldn't be necessary, right? If we're exactly the same. And so I think it keeps my mind framed on what's truth, which is Man, those differences are a good thing. And yeah, let's deal with the the way we show up. In ways that are hurtful.
Let's deal with that stuff, but it doesn't change how. amazing this person is that that I get to spend my life with. Greg, one of the lies that you talk about is the idea that you must meet each other's needs. You must meet my needs. This is what marriage is all about.
You meet my needs. Discuss that and talk about that. Yeah, and Gary, I think the reason why that's a lie is because I think fundamentally. You take a greatest commandment: love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, so all of who you are. and then love others as you love yourself.
I think for years, I thought there were three commands there: to love God, to love others, and to love yourself. When you really look at that, there's only two commands to love God and to love others. The assumption That that Jesus seemed to be making there is that that we're already doing the job of loving ourselves, which I would say me loving me means that I recognize That God has placed so much value within me that it's my job to make sure that I steward well. Who he's created me to be, that it's my job. to make sure that I'm full, whole, and healthy.
It's my job to make sure that emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, physically, that I am being well taken care of. That is not Aaron's job.
So how this showed up? In a subtle way, is that when we got married, I walked in a lot of baggage, like we all do. For for me specifically, I had gone through some things where I had felt like such a failure. And so that became such a tender wound. That was a big button.
Anytime Aaron pointed out a mistake, I just felt like such a failure.
Well, I thought it was her job to affirm me. I thought it was her job to make sure that I didn't feel like a failure. When Erin would bring up an issue, I would say, hey, Dr. Gary Chapman says that you need to affirm me, that you need to point out three or four things that I'm doing well, and then kind of sandwich in your one complaint and then finish it up with some positive words. Like I really tried to convince her.
That it was her job to make sure that I felt successful and not like a failure.
Well, that didn't work. That's what I'm saying. That strategy would never work. It never works. In verses, me understanding that God gave me the job.
to take care of me. Aaron is my greatest assistant on earth. She knows my love language. She is more than willing. At times To do those kinds of things that helped me to feel love.
But at the end of the day, she's my assistant. It's my job to make sure. That I am well cared for as an individual, that I am full of God's love, that I understand that He is my source. As it talks about in Psalms 55, that God is my source, is not my wife. In in that little subtle difference made such A big difference when I finally said, I'm going to be an adult.
An adult is someone. Who fully does the job of taking care of themselves, heart, soul, mind and strength. And that that that I'm inviting Aaron in. To helping me do that by assisting me, but I'm always understanding that God gave me the job to be well cared for. And that means that I spend time with him, that I go to church.
That I take good care of myself emotionally, physically, all those things.
Now I just see, I look at our culture. And you just see a lot of kids running around in adult-sized bodies. Because they've fallen into this notion that that my job is to get other people to love me in the way that I want. And that just that never, ever, ever works. And it's so frustrating.
And it just, you see how it damages relationships. When I do intensives with couples, That is the the one of the biggest light bulbs that goes off. Is this this idea that, wow, for, like, for example, just the other day I was working. With someone, and she was talking about just how frustrated she is that her husband isn't doing A, B, and C, and she just feels so unloved. And so I said, well Well, when you feel unappreciated, when you feel devalued, what do you do with those emotions?
And it's always the same thing. Oh, I don't know. I just ignore them. I avoid them. I wish them away.
I try to get him to keep doing that job. And I think that that's a fundamental Problem within our cultures that we don't teach our kids how to really take care of their own hearts. And for her, her learning. How to take that pain, and when I'm feeling a certain way, and how do I go to the Lord? How to me and the Lord.
Care for me first and foremost. I've watched their marriage be transformed. Again, he's got to learn the same lesson, but watching her just come alive, learning how to be the one to really start caring for her heart and her well-being. is is just rocked their marriage in such a positive way. Yeah.
When we're demanding of another person that they meet our need, whether it's for love or anything else. we're driving them away, right? Right. Because they're saying essentially, if you love me, you know, or if you you know, if you were doing what you should do as a husband, then I would, you know, I would be okay. And and we're We're moving in the wrong direction and pushing them further away, actually.
Right, right. I mean, if we could make that strategy work, great, go for it. It just, as you're saying, it just that doesn't work when we weaponize that stuff, when we're not really owning that God gave me the job, the privilege of caring for me first and foremost. Yeah. Well, another one of the lies you talk about was that whole thing about focusing on techniques.
Uh talk about that a bit. Yeah, I'll never forget the day in my marriage that my wife came to me. I just had released a book called The Marriage You've Always Dreamed Of. And she came to me about that same time Crying and saying, I'm fully committed to you. I love you, but I feel like we're nothing more than married roommates.
And she said, we're just so disconnected. This is not the marriage that I've always dreamed about.
So try going out and doing radio interviews when your own wife doesn't feel like you have a marriage that she even wants. But she was right. And so I kind of went on this journey going, okay, she wants to feel more connection, and I want to feel more connection. How do we do that? And I kept asking people, and it was always like, well, just do this.
Make sure you're flirty and be more romantic. Make sure you're doing date nights. Make sure you. Understand her love language and are doing that. Make sure you're having these small little conversations and use conversation starters and.
And it was always Gary. And Chris, the focus was on the technique. And if we dis did more of those techniques and did more of those activities, that we would feel that connection and it wasn't working. And so the day that that that I saw one of the definitions of love. In it being that you know, love is about really feeling deeply seen and deeply known by your spouse.
And what I started realizing is that, you know, to feel that deepest level of connection and intimacy in a marriage, it requires that we're fully seen and fully known. And that's risky. Because if I really let Aaron see all of who I am, all the mistakes, the scars, the whatever. What is she going to do with that? Will she still love me?
Will she still accept me? Will she still, you know, what? And that's when I started learning that, you know, beyond the technique. Techniques can be a great cherry on the top. Of creating a marriage that feels safe.
When my wife, when I feel safe, With her. Then I'm likely to open my heart. to be fully seen and to be fully known. And all of a sudden I started to realize that, you know, techniques are great. Understanding love languages are awesome.
But if you don't feel safe with this person, none of that stuff will get you to where you want. And so I then started going, well, gosh, I have no idea. How do I create a marriage that feels safe? And so that's what Aaron and I, in that season, really started to do. We started to learn.
How do we create a safe place? That we can feel fully seen and fully known, that we can use the techniques and the activities to even go to a deeper place. But I finally realized that beyond the techniques, we needed to figure out how to create safety. And that's one of my favorite things now to help couples understand is that first and foremost, how safe Does your marriage feel? Because if it doesn't, you're never going to open your heart.
And you can have Great date nights, but man, if you don't really feel safe with each other's hearts, you're probably not going to feel that connection that you both long to feel. And so that's why for Anne and I, we just started asking each other, help me understand, like, what is it when I do it helps you to feel safe? And we just started really practicing those things. And experienced a connection like we've never felt before. It was fun to go from that season of we're nothing more than married roommates to.
feeling so connected. But the key for us was creating safety, not just doing the techniques. Yeah. What if you have one spouse who is willing to work on the problem, wants to work on the problem, maybe is reading a book like this book we're talking about? But the other person is not.
They're not open to reading a book or even discussing things. Where do they go from there? Yeah, it's hard. I mean, my first response is: I'm so sorry. That's painful when you long to have the marriage you've always dreamed of, when you long to have that connection.
And you don't feel your spouse is doing or wanting the same thing, it's hard. But it's that reality that we understand: is that the worst question actually I can ever ask is: how do I have a better marriage? Because that takes two fully engaged people growing as individuals, growing as a couple to get that sort of marriage. The right question is: How do I become a better spouse? Because I have control over that.
I can't make Erin show up, I can't make her work on whatever issue or problem I'm aware of. And I don't want to spend my time trying to manipulate her to do that. But I can always say this is tough. It's just not fun that we we're not growing together. But the power lies in going to the Lord.
He draws close to the brokenhearted. It's saying, God, in this season that I don't like. How can I continue to grow as a husband? How can I continue to grow more like you? And Lord, you give me the strength, you give me the power to endure.
a very hard season.
So it's going from where's my focus? Is my focus on trying to get Aaron to do something different than. I'm going to feel helpless and powerless. But if I can go, I don't like the season, and those emotions are real, and I can grieve that. But God, keep growing me as an individual.
praying believing that God's pursuing Aaron, God's growing Aaron, and at some time, hopefully. that that that she will you know go hey I'm ready And then we'll go get the help. But I always, Gary, tell people that the biggest battle in that season when you feel that way, that you're the only one working on something, the biggest battle is to keep your heart open. And so keep fighting, keep getting the right support, go to your counselor, keep doing the things that you need to be doing to keep your heart open so that your heart's open when, hopefully when if, your spouse then is ready, that your heart is open. But it doesn't take away that you might have to set boundaries.
There might need to be a limit that you've placed on. I'm not willing to keep doing it this way. And a boundary is put in place to keep your heart open.
So I'm not just saying, hey, just roll over and just focus on you and God. I'm saying you might need to set a boundary that's between you and the Lord, but that's still a good thing. That's loving, because that's what helps to keep your heart open. Yeah, I like the emphasis that we can't change the other person. But we can, with God's help, change ourselves.
Right. And the more we become like Christ ourselves, The Christlike attitude, How can I enrich the lives of other people? That was basically his lifestyle. Begin to take that lifestyle. We're going to have a positive influence on a spouse that's not even willing to talk about our marriage, right?
That's exactly right. And that's not fun. And I'm not minimizing the pain. That's a painful, painful season, which is why your battle is to keep your heart open in the midst of all that hurt. Craig, we're nearing the end of our time together, but I want to go back to one of the lies you talk about, is that 1 plus 1 equals 2.
Explain that to us. How does that work in a marriage? Yeah, just think of the classic unity candle ceremony that many of us had in our weddings. We've seen that. It's you've got the two candles, so the one plus the one, and then all of a sudden, You see them together like that one other bigger candle that's supposed to represent the marriage.
Now inevitably what they do is where I cringe now. And they blow out the individual candles so that they keep that one marital candle glowing. And what I hate about that message is it prioritizes the marriage. It's saying essentially that the two individuals don't really matter now that we're married. That one plus one, now that's equal now to one marriage, and and it's just it's it's not consistent with how God designed everything.
You know, in a marriage, there's three relationships that we always have to be attending to: there's Aaron as an individual, there's There's me as an individual, and then there's our marriage individual. And as long as we're putting in the time and the effort around making sure that all three of those. Are well cared for, that as an individual, that I'm growing closer to the Lord, that I'm becoming healthier, that I'm dealing with my baggage. that Aaron's doing the same thing. And so, as long as the two individuals are committed to growing as healthy individuals.
And then we're committed to growing our marriage and making sure that it's strong and that we spend time together. Like I always tell people, you know, my wife promised to love me for the rest of her life. I'm not too concerned about her not loving me. What scares me is if she didn't like me. And I want to make sure that Erin feels that I'm one of her very closest, one of her very best friends, because we spend time together in ministry, we spend time together dating, we spend time together physically.
I mean, just all of that. And so that's really what has made such a big difference for us: is that we make sure that as individuals were growing healthier. And that we're putting time and effort into our relationship, but all three of those have to matter. Greg, as we come to the end of our time together today, earlier on you mentioned hope restored, the marriage intensities. Can you share a word about that and where our listeners might go to be involved in one of those?
Yeah, absolutely. It's really designed for couples who are in crisis. Maybe it's been a long-term slow fade, and it's just, you're just, that's no longer acceptable. or something has happened that's really thrown the marriage out of whack. And so it's really think of it like a marriage ER.
This is a place where we have some of the best marriage therapists on the planet. Who are gonna help you and your spouse get to the root, get to what's really going on. We'll challenge maybe some of these lies that you guys have bought into to then really help you rebuild, but on truth and on things, strategies that can actually work. And like I said earlier, you know, we've had over 15,000 couples go through Hope Restored. And 80% of those couples are still together.
And so, God's doing amazing things in using these counselors and the other couples who are part of that. And so, if you're there, if you're just feeling stuck like this just isn't working, I want so much more. We come to a hope-restored marriage-intensive, and I tell you, God, God can use that as a way to help you guys have a marriage that you're both thrilled with. And how would they find out about where these are held and when? Yeah, if you go to hoperestored.com, that'll take you right to the page.
We have four retreat centers around the country that we do these out of. And so we've got some great people who can talk to you on the phone. You can set up an appointment just to kind of hear what's going on for us and which site would be best. And our people can really help you think that through.
So there is hope. And I've watched that, having led them for years. I just love watching how God restores marriages through Hope Restored.
Well, Greg, I appreciate what you all are doing in that area. And also, I'm excited about the book that we've been talking about today. And I know that it's going to help a lot of our couples, so I hope that they'll reach out and get the book.
So, thanks for being with us today, and may God continue to give you wisdom in all that you and Aaron are doing. Oh, thank you so much. I love doing this with you guys.
So thanks for having me. And let me give you that website that Greg just mentioned again, hoperestored.com. And the title of today's resource for any stage of marriage is Nine Lies That Will Destroy Your Marriage and the Truths That Will Save It and Set It Free, co-authored by Dr. Smalley and Robert Paul. Go to buildingrelationships.us to find out more.
And next week, it's our final summer best of broadcast about emotional hoarding, letting go of the stuff that keeps you stuck. Don't miss it next week. Before we go, let me thank our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Backing. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in Chicago in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
Thanks for listening.
