I Choose Joy | Chip Ingram

Circumstances plus my perspective equals my experience. I have very little control over most of my circumstance. I have 100% control over my perspective. You have to change your perspective on life and by God's grace you can do that as you begin to follow Paul's example. Welcome to Building Relationships with Dr.

Gary Chapman, author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Today, teaching pastor and CEO of Living on the Edge, Chip Ingram, believes joy is our lifeline through life struggles. But for many, joy is missing. Why is that? And what can we do to recapture joy?

Our featured resource at buildingrelationships.us is Chip's new book, I Choose Joy. Change your perspective, change your life. Just go to buildingrelationships.us. And Gary, I think there's a good news, bad news proposition for us here today. The good news is you can have joy.

The bad news is you have to choose it. And that's sometimes hard, isn't it?

Well you're right, and I think part of it is that people don't know you can choose it. And that's why I think the program today is going to be very, very helpful.

So I'm excited about this program.

Well, it's RE-MEET Chip Ingram, teaching pastor and CEO of Living on the Edge. Pastor for more than 30 years, he's the author of a lot of excellent books, including Yes, You Really Can Change and Holy Ambition. A featured resource today is I Choose Joy: Change Your Perspective, Change Your Life. We have a link right there at buildingrelationships.us.

Well, Chip, welcome back to Building Relationships. It is great to be with you all. Thanks so much.

So you ask readers in your book to think of the most joyful person they know.

So let's start the program with that question. Who's the most joyful person in Chip Ingram's life? You know, when I think of that, a name just pops up. And it's, you know, talk about a good news, bad news. His name is Rick Ribozi.

He became one of my closest, closest friends. He had a very unexpected heart attack about three years ago. It was quarterback at Boise. And we could joke and laugh and pray one minute later. He just lit up.

I mean, his smile, his countenance, ups, downs, it just didn't matter. He was just filled with joy. Many a time I'd get a text at 5.15 a.m. or something. We're both kind of early risers.

Hey, bro, I miss you, man. Let's just get in the word together or I'll meet you at Pete's, you know? And the second person is I have a sister who was her life really was the influence that led me to be open to later hear God's word and become a Christian. Her name is Punky. And she is a delight to this day.

And to this day, someday, somehow I want to be like her. You know, I talked to her. phone two days ago. She lives in London, Kentucky. And many of you know, you know, the Big twister went through there, and houses in her neighborhood are demolished.

And as I called her, I just called Pankey, are you okay? Oh, oh, yeah, Chip, we're out cleaning up, we're just helping people. And oh, it's so sad, you know, they've lost their homes, and this and that. And her attitude was like, You know, I'm sure the Lord's going to use this for good, and these people are hurting, and we're helping them clean up now. And anyway, those are the two people that come to my mind that.

I don't have to be in their presence for more than about 60 seconds that my countenance is raised.

Well, that's great.

Now, Rick, you mentioned he had a heart attack. Is he still with us?

Well it was uh Actually, I was speaking at the cove, Gary, and I got a text from his wife. He went up to play golf. He had sleep apnea, and they're not sure, but he was up in the Tahoe area. And he went to sleep and he never woke up, was only 60 years old, and just probably one of the. Most hard-hitting losses.

you know, other than family. Just someone so full of life and so unexplainable, went to sleep and never woke up. Man, that's always hard. Isn't it interesting that I bring about such a sad situation when we're going to talk about joy? But it also, there's something to it to think that.

That's a reality. I mean, I mean, Rick's in heaven. And it's, it's, again, it's my. First moments are, I cried. I mean, I really, really cried at the loss, but the perspective, which we're going to talk about, was.

He had some big, big challenges in his life. His oldest son had some real mental bipolar type issues and, in a moment of weakness, about three years earlier, committed suicide. And so he was joyful, but he carried a lot of pain. His son was a genuine believer, and he's reunited. And, you know, again, through one lens, my sorrow, through another lens, in God's kindness, he's reunited with the son.

So much of joy is about how you look at life and the grace to have the perspective that doesn't just live with the up and down of circumstance. Yeah, yeah.

Well, you know, the scriptures say God takes pleasure in the death of his saints. Also says God does not rejoice and is never happy when a sinner dies.

So maybe Well, let's talk about joy. People often talk about happiness and joy in the same framework, but uh they're quite different, aren't they? Yeah, they are. You know, happiness comes from happenings, right? You know, when things are happening good, we're happy.

You know, it's great. I mean, and I think, by the way, I think it's a really wonderful thing. And in many ways, I think the Lord rejoices when we're happy. You know, we have a baby. We're happy.

If you're an adult, I just went to a graduation of a granddaughter. I was happy. She graduated. I mean, when good things happen to us, we're happy. But happenings can also be very negative.

And for most people, Happiness rolls up and down with the economy's up, the economy's down. Health is up, health is down. Relationships are good, relationships are bad.

So happiness sort of travels on the seas of circumstances where joy. Is the byproduct of a relationship with Jesus whereby from within. There is a perspective and an emotion and a mindset. It doesn't mean that things are wonderful. It doesn't mean that circumstances are great, but there is an abiding holding up of your heart and your life and a connection with God that can bring joy.

It was for the joy set before him. Jesus endured the cross.

So even in the midst of those excruciating pain, difficulty, and terrible circumstance personally, we really can experience joy, but it's supernatural. Yeah. Yeah. Well was there a specific life experience that uh prompted you to begin to explore the topic of joy and then write this book? There really was Gary.

I um Probably seven years ago, I uh... I've always been pretty Athletic and working out, and even like 60, 61, I was playing full court basketball with college guys. And I reached as a guy cross over, and I felt an electrical shock go down my leg. And I mean, I just couldn't move. And I thought, boy, I'm done.

And I'd herniated a disc about 10 years earlier, but this was different. And that started a journey of. Back issues that were like I'd never experienced. And I, you know, for the next two years, I would be on ice every 20 minutes, almost 24/7. I kept pasturing and Because of technology, I could do like one message out of three or four, and they would film it on this huge screen.

I was laying on a table because I couldn't sit because it was painful. I couldn't stand because it was painful. It was, I did whatever kind of treatment you could possibly do. And for two years, just the pain, it would wear you down, wear you down. Then eventually, I had a major surgery, and they bolted a couple of my vertebrae together and fused them.

And that brought some relief. And then, two and a half years later, the above and below where they bolted my back, it broke. And I had an emergency surgery. And the pain, they took me to the emergency room. It must have given me something really strong.

It's the first time in my life, Gary, I would say. If someone would have Offered to shoot me, I would have said, just do it. It's a level I've never experienced. And I mean, in sincerity, I don't mean that much as a metaphor. And nothing touched it.

I mean, they gave me two or three pain pills and nothing touched it. And then the rehab from all of that. And then after all that, you know, it's months and months and months. And so, you know, it's like. You're into between before the first surgeries, then the surgeries, and later surgeries, and then living with pain all the time.

Probably had about six years under my belt of. Really, really, really hurting. And it was near the end of the rehab, and you know, I was walking again and doing, you know, some stuff, and I was sitting on the hearth. And my wife, she's really very godly, very sweet, but she's also very direct. And she looked at me and, you know, I got up and I moaned and groaned a second.

And she goes, could you just stay there for a minute? I said, well, sure, honey. And she looked at me with those eyes like, I don't want to offend you, and you know, I love you. But can I tell you something? I said, Well, sure.

She looked at me and said, Do you realize how negative you've become? Mm. And my first response was, oh, no, no, no, you know, hey, it just really hurts. And then she said, Chip, when you get up, you groan. Everywhere we go, people ask about your back.

You tell them about this, you tell them about that. And the lens that you look at, I mean, it can be sunny and all you see is clouds. You have been one of the most positive people. At the time, we'd lived together and been married for 40 years. It's 46 now.

And she just said, honey, I want to tell you, you've. you know you i think you do do well in in larger public places, but you're becoming a very negative person. And I Boy, I took that to heart, and as in the kindness and providence of God, I was scheduled to do one of those yearly things at the Billy Graham Center. And I was praying about, you know, what should I teach on? And, you know, I thought, you know, I'd like to do something.

to build a rhythm and I so It was like I started studying Philippians chapter 1. And I thought, forget teaching anybody else. Lord, this is for me. And I began to study this passage, and I saw: here's a man living. with eminent death and uncertainty and in prison, And this book is filled with joy.

And what I saw was, it wasn't about trying hard to have joy. There were principles in this first chapter that literally I had to go into training. I literally can talk about it as we go. I mean, I began to write down on some cards: here's your current thinking. Here's what you've learned.

Here's the process. And I literally went into training and would read every morning, every night. And then I taught that. And it turned my life around. And it also had a huge impact on other people.

And as a result of that, it was like, Yeah. People are struggling with mental issues and anxiety and discouragement. And so I was asked to make it a book. And so now it's a book. I choose Joy.

Well Well, I think any of our listeners who have ever had back pain, leg pain, and all of that, they're identifying with what you're saying. And if there's joy in that situation, They want it.

So glad you're with us today and glad you wrote this book. You talked about the first chapter of Philippians and how that impacted you, this emphasis on joy, when you were going through a lot, a lot of pain.

So tell us why that passage is crucial to the idea of choosing joy.

Well, as I read it, I began to walk through it. And for those not familiar with the passage, it opens up where, you know, Paul and Timothy, a normal introduction, he's writing in response to a gift that they give him. A church member named Epaphroditus brought a financial gift. If you're familiar with prisons in the day, they didn't feed you. If your friends didn't bring you food, you would starve.

And so they gave a financial gift and he's writing to thank them. And he's also aware that there's a few external issues and some conflict and some things, but he wants to really thank them. And so, you know, imagine being chained to a guard, new guard every six hours. You're in a Roman prison. As it opens up, after praying for them and saying, he goes, I thank my God and all my remembrance of you, always offering prayer with joy.

In my every prayer for you all. And then he goes on and prays a very specific prayer. But that struck me.

Okay, wait a second. You're chained, you're in prison. We'll learn later in the chapter, you may be executed, and you're praying with joy. And then I notice the second thing is that his focus first is upward. And then it's outward on other people.

And what I saw from that, Gary was. You know, it's yes, that was what he specifically did, but. But there's a bit of a principle here. When I found myself really discouraged and down and negative, what I realized was my focus. was on me.

My circumstances, what I was experiencing. When Paul was in terrible circumstances, his focus was twofold: it was upward. He's praying, but he's praying with joy, and it was outward. He was concerned about them.

So he prays that God will reveal his love to them. And he prays that they would have wisdom and understanding, and that they could approve the things that are excellent so they could live this kind of life. And so the first chapter, the first section is: I begin to say, you know what? I think there's a question I could start asking myself. And the first one would be: Chip, where's your focus?

The moment I start feeling down, discouraged, the moment I hear negative things coming out of my mouth, I ask: where's your focus? Is it up? And out. Or Is it on yourself? Gary, if I can just be very candid, because, you know.

I had to catch myself thirty, forty, fifty times a day early on. I would hear me say something that was negative. Where's your focus? Me, my mind. You know, I got where it wouldn't come out of my mouth.

And then I would start looking at a situation, or my mind start thinking. And it would be like negative, negative.

Okay, where's your focus? Me. And so I begin to just ask that one question. Chip, where's your focus? Is it upward and outward?

or is it inward and so then as i went through the entire chapter What I saw was from that truth, there were like four questions that I started to ask myself. That each change my perspective. And the second section, as he talks about his circumstances, he says, have turned out for the greater progress of the gospel. The question there was, what's my purpose? In other words, he thought what his purpose was to honor and serve God.

And hey, the gospel is going forward, even though my personal life is going downward. Paul says, In this I rejoice. And what I realized was, okay. If I look at my life through the lens of how things only impact me. I'm not going to have a lot of joy.

But if I can look at whatever's happening to my life through the lens of, is this fulfilling God's purpose? How is God using this to reach people? How is God using this to build up other believers? How is God using this to make me more like Jesus?

So I started asking, those were the first two questions: where's my focus and what's your purpose? That created a little, I guess, what I would call a formula. And so I wrote that on a separate card, and it was: the letter C plus the letter P equals E. Circumstances plus my perspective equals my experience. And what I realized was, I have very little control over most of my circumstance.

I have 100% control over my P perspective. You know, like everything in life, you see people who have terrible circumstances and they have amazing attitudes and joy, and other people have. Not even too bad circumstances, and life stinks.

So that was the key, realizing. You have to change your perspective on life. And by God's grace, you can do that as you begin to follow Paul's example. Yeah, that's powerful. And I'm sitting here thinking about those who are going through Particularly ongoing pain, like you described in your own life there for so long.

Because you're exactly right. The tendency is we're thinking about ourselves and focusing on ourselves in our situation. And because the circumstances are bad, you know, we're we we have a down uh negative attitude.

So well, so th th so those two questions are, uh where's your focus? Is it on myself? In my situation, or am I on God looking up to God and looking outward to other people? And then what's my purpose? How can God use this in a positive way?

Which he was. I mean, Paul wrote the whole letter in that situation, the letter of Philippians.

So, yeah.

Well, you have two other questions that you discussed also. The next one is: where's your hope? Why is that question important?

Well, you know, if my hope is in only this life or in a person or in a job or when I can buy a house or when I get better. Those things, I have no guarantees on them. But if my hope is something that can never change, and so you know, in verses 12 through 18, Paul says, you know, this has turned out for the greater progress of the gospel. The believers are growing. And again, he goes, you know, something, as much as people are.

Using these circumstances to undermine my ministry. Guess what? God's using it to get the gospel out. And then he gets into his personal life beginning in verse 19. And he doesn't know whether he's going to live or die, Gary.

And he goes, Well, you know, I'm not sure. I may be executed. I may be pardoned. I don't know. And then he talks about this dilemma of, you know, it's more profitable if I stay with regard to you, right?

You know, I can keep ministering to you. It's more profitable to me because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

So he looks at death in a very different way than most of us do, even as Christians. That would be great. And then he concludes that my sense, you know, we just get this idea of the prompting of God's Spirit. My sense is God's going to pardon me because your faith may need more encouragement and I need to minister for a longer period with you. But what I realized was what he does in that, what freed him from the fear of death?

What freed him from, you know, how's everything going to turn out and being paralyzed by anxiety? What freed him was his hope was not in how things turned out. His hope was in the absolute certainty. that the moment he would die That he would be in the presence of Christ, and if that was not the plan. His hope was in The goodness, the kindness, the wisdom, and the sovereignty of God that a good God would only allow good things for the long term to bring about the highest and best results for the most people.

And so his hope wasn't in.

Something that was temporal. He had an eternal perspective that changed his whole focus. You know, you tell that, and it reminds me of an account from my son when he was still single. He was working in Prague in the Czech Republic. But every weekend, he would go out to other places, other cities, and sometimes other countries, and take his guitar and go to the center of town, start playing his guitar and singing some secular songs, and then he'd move to Christian songs, and then he'd start talking to the young people that showed up.

And my wife said to him when he was at home visiting one time, she said, Derek, I'm concerned, son. You go out there, nobody knows where you are, you're by yourself. If something happened to you, we wouldn't even know about it. And he said, well, mom? What's the worst thing that could happen to me?

I could get killed. And I would go to heaven a few years before you do. What is so bad about that, Mom? Wow. Wow.

And that's when my wife released him to God. But, you know, he had that same thing: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. What's so bad about that? Part of our lack of having that perspective is: I think heaven, maybe there's not a whole lot of teaching on it, or maybe there is some teaching, but I think the average believer doesn't really look forward to heaven. You know, you think there's a reward for those that are longing for his appearing, but I think.

You know, a picture of heaven that may be a bit more popular, that somehow we're going to be in a you know, eternal worship service, or there's nothing to do, or you know, we're going to float around with angels and sip iced tea, or sort of these ethereal pictures as opposed to a new heaven, a new earth, a culture, a life, the work, perfect environment. You know, it's Eden on steroids for good, and the greatest and deepest things we'll ever experience. I think the Apostle Paul, obviously, none of us know what his trip to the third heaven was or what he saw, but I think it's pretty obvious that he had such a clarity that There is nothing better ever. And that if that was the outcome, Uh a lot like Your son's perspective is That frees people from anxiety and fear. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Okay, so there's another question that you asked. First of all, you ask yourself, where's my focus? On myself, my situation, my pain, my trouble, or is it on God and on other people? And then the question: what's my purpose? You know, and what's God's purpose in all of this?

And then, where's my hope? you know, in circumstances or in God. And then the fourth question you were asking yourself is, what are your expectations? Talk about that. That was, I got to the end of the chapter as I was studying.

And in verse 27, you know, he still doesn't know if he's going to live or die, but he says, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ.

So whether I come and see you or remain absent, I may hear of you. But you're standing firm in one spirit, with one mind, striving together for the faith of the gospel, in no way alarmed by your opponents, which is a sign of destruction for them, but of salvation for you, and that too is from God. And then you get these last two verses. And probably for years, I might have skipped over these a little too quickly. He says, For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake.

not only to believe in him. But also to suffer for his sake, experiencing the same conflict which you saw in me and now here to be in me. And as I study this, Gary, when he gets this line, it says, for you it has been granted. That word granted is the root word, it's for grace. And it's literally.

To you, Philippian church, God gave a grace gift. And the grace gift, this is a privilege. This is something that's good. It's been granted to you. not only to believe.

but also to suffer for his sake. Mm-hmm. I don't know that I meet a lot of Christians and I don't know that personally You meet even a theology of people who are saying, How could suffering ever be great? And yet, Paul in chapter 3 is going to pray. He says, I want to know him.

And I want to know the intimacy and the fellowship of his suffering. And I think we do almost anything possible to avoid suffering. And don't get me wrong, there's some perverted theology of, you know, walking on hands and knees over a glass to suffer for Jesus. And we've seen, you know, bizarre things. But the fact of the matter is, is I think we live in a culture that we try to avoid suffering of any kind at all costs.

Okay. Thanks for joining us for the Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman podcast. He's the author of the New York Times bestseller, "The 5 Love Languages" . Our guest today is author and speaker Chip Ingram.

You hear him on the program Living on the Edge, and we're talking about his book, I Choose Joy, Change Your Perspective, Change Your Life. Find out more at fivelovelanguages.com. Again, go to fivelovelanguages.com. In our last segment, Chip and Gary were talking about how we try in this culture to avoid suffering at all costs. And let's pick up right there.

Any pain, any difficulty, any struggle, whether it's physical, material, psychological, there's a pill. There's a quick solution for it. And I think that has seeped so into not just the culture, but into the Christian community, where when there's a challenge, Well, God, where are you? Or what's wrong? Or did I do something wrong?

As opposed to part of life in a fallen world, as we live in this flesh, God has granted us, we will believe. But also, we will suffer. And so, but if our expectations are we should never suffer, or I must have done something terrible if I suffered, or God is not good if I've suffered, that perspective. Will cause people to do a nosedive emotionally and mentally, and sometimes well beyond, as opposed to. Oh, I joke.

Forgive me, I'm a sports guy, and so I've got a good buddy who. Who's a tight end played pro football? And he was this a number of years ago, and he since has really made a lot of progress, but he was really struggling in his marriage. And he said, Hey, can we talk? You know, let's go.

I'll go play nine holes of golf, and I want to talk. And so, we get first three or four holes, and I listen to all the struggles, and this and that, and this and that, and this and that. We get to about hole number four, and finally, he just looks at me and hands on his hips and he goes, You know, it just no matter how hard I work, there's something else to work on, something else to work on, something else to work on. He goes, Chip. I don't know.

Is it worth it? This marriage is way too hard. Is it always going to be this hard? It doesn't seem fair. In a moment of maybe love or a little sadistic humor, I said now.

Can I ask you a question? He said, Well, sure. I said, Now you played high school football, right? And it was in a state place where it was really hot. I said, Do you remember those two-a-day practices?

Oh man, those were murder. And then you played college football, right? Oh, man. Do you remember those two-a-day practices? Yeah.

Remember lifting weights? Yeah. Oh, excruciating. And then you played throat football, right? Yeah, right.

He goes, Now you're tight end, correct?

Okay, so you do an end route and you come across the middle and you catch the ball, and a linebacker, I mean, puts his helmet right in your chest. Do you get up and put your hands on your hip and go, that hurts? That's not fair. Boy, that's not nice. And he kind of smiled.

So I said, So, you're telling me that you were willing to batter your body, work like crazy, endure incredible pain, sweat. Beyond belief, lift weights almost 24/7 so that you could catch a football and have your career go forward. But you're telling me when it gets really hard to learn how to love your wife and be other-centered, that it's too hard. And he looked at me and kind of shook his head. And what I said is: here's the key.

What are your expectations? You expected two days to be hard. You expected when you caught the ball, you were going to get hit and really hard. And so, your mental outlook, and you've prepared yourself. You want to have a great marriage?

You want to be a great father? You want to be a great Christian? Guess what? What you can expect is there's spiritual opposition. You can expect that it's going to be challenging.

You can expect that, just like you don't respond right all the time, your mate's not going to. No matter how much you love your kids, they're going to make some choices, it'll break your heart. What do you expect when you shift it from everything ought to be right because I'm doing what I'm supposed to do? And if God loves me, my life should turn out semi-painless. That perspective will cause you to experience no joy in your life because it's a false expectation.

Yeah. Well Oh, I'm sure our listeners are sitting there like I'm sitting there and thinking, Yes, I see it. I see it. I see it. But by nature, we tend to do exactly the opposite, right?

Yeah. Well, well, you know, my my wife, when she said that, I You know, I wasn't saying it out loud. But you know, I'm thinking, hey, Lord, I, you know, at the time, I've been a pastor 35 years. I mean, I've tried to be faithful, Lord. I'm, you know, I was, you know, giving him my little resume and.

There's this unconscious thing that seeps in that if we're obedient and we do X, Y, and Z, somehow God is obligated. to provide you know x y and z good wonderful life And and and you know, think about it, Gary, you and I and Many people in ministry, we've studied the scriptures for how many years and yet you suddenly fall into that. And you think of how the apostles loved Jesus, they followed him, they did exactly what he called them. Called them to do. And all but one, I think, were martyred.

So, were they out of God's will? The Apostle Paul's perspective, you know, a parallel passage that in Romans 5, he tells us that. You know, we have peace with God and we've been justified by faith and have peace with God, and we exalt and rejoice in the glory and this new life. And then in verse two, he says, We also exalt. in our tribulation, our problems, our struggles.

Because tribulation brings about Uh endurance. Suffering through endurance and endurance going through hard, difficult, painful times. We're never more dependent. And in that dependency, what happens is we change proven character. And as we change that proven character and seeing God work in our lives, Hope is born in our heart.

That hope that God is faithful, that hope of the future, that hope of the heaven. And he goes, and hope never disappoints because it's there's this process of difficulty and pain and struggle, and where he says then that the The love of God is poured out in our heart by the Holy Spirit. I think both of us would say if you ask us to describe the people that know and love and emanate the presence of Jesus and are loving and kind and like someday I want to be, most all of them have been through levels of pain or difficulty or struggle or betrayal. And it's been in the midst of that that they drew near to Jesus and experienced his love and his power that that has made them Because they've responded in faith, independency, the kind of people that they are. And it's part of God's, I mean, part of the game plan of transformation is: yes, it's being in God's word.

Yes, it's praying. Yes, you have to be an authentic community. And yes, Suffering. is a part of the journey that you can expect. But the promise is not that it will be easy.

The promise is I'll never leave you. I'll never forsake you. And that he'll be with us. And as he is with us, he not only can change externally the things out there. But he often does a whole lot more work in changing us.

Yeah. Absolutely. Chip, I'm thinking that there are people who'll be listening to us today and they've just lost their job. you know, and it's their livelihood. Or maybe someone who's just gone through a divorce, not a divorce they wanted, but one that was kind of forced on them.

And they're sitting there going, yeah, but am I supposed to have joy in the midst of this?

Now we're not saying they should be happy. But We are saying they should have joy, or they can have joy, right? Yeah. You know, in the back of the book, I put a quote because I think it's a profound one by C.S. Lewis.

And it says, joy is the serious business of heaven. I think some writer of Christian history made an interesting remark. He said, Love may have been the commodity of the early church, but joy was their calling card. There was something about their joy in the midst of their suffering that was the greatest apologetic. And that's been true ever since.

And so, what I'd say to this person who's going through that and pastoring as you and I have There's still a lot of those people in my life right now that I'm going through some of those things with. It doesn't mean there isn't sadness and disappointment and temptations toward great anger and a process and grief.

So, this is not about denying your emotions or acting as though you put on a smiley face. But this is saying in the midst of this hurt and this pain, you stop. Where's my focus? And then it's upward. Praise you that I don't understand it.

I don't like it. It hurts, but I love you. You are a good and sovereign God. And so I'm going to pray for those people that hurt me. I'm going to pray for some other people that have challenges.

And okay, God, this is so unfair. What's your purpose in it? God, what has my fellow workers see what? I do as I respond to being abandoned by this person who left with another woman or left with another man or a business partner who opted out and took all the money and no one knows where he's at, how I respond, Lord, what's your purpose in this? Yes, I'm hurt.

Yes, I'm mad. But as we lean in, and then we can say, God, my hope is in you. And sometimes we have to say that some of the deepest hurts reveal.

Some idols in our life, some struggles in our life that God wants to, for our good, purify and get our hope where it needs to be. And I think asking those questions: where's my hope? What did I really expect? And leaning in and just saying, Jesus, I don't like this, and I feel hurt, and sad and mad, and I don't understand, and I feel confused. But I'm coming to you.

Be with me. Encourage me. I have learned more and more to live in the Psalms, Gary, in the midst of the hardest and most difficult times. And what you realize is. You're not alone.

That some of the people who know God the best, it's in the midst of those that He really will meet us. And it's in that overflow, He buoys us up. That's, I don't know how else to say it. And it doesn't mean that everything's wonderful or your emotions are up all the time, but there's a sustaining joy that we can have. And it's, here's the thing: it gives you strength.

That's what I want people to remember. This isn't like, well, this would be better for me, and I'll be more fulfilled, and I'll choose to do these things. And I guess I should write these on these cards or get this book or whatever. No, no, no. This is about the joy of the Lord, it is our strength.

Joy is, I'm not a victim. Joy is, I will make it through this. I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength. Joy is, He is with me always. And there's a testimony coming out of this.

I will be a trophy of God's grace. And there's a setting your face like a flint, like Jesus did toward the cross. And there's a joy that boils up inside of you that takes away that victim mentality. And when you tackle that, Your whole perspective and your life, it becomes not only a great testimony, but you experience God in ways that many of us never have.

So I hear you saying, among other things, it's running to God rather than running away from God or saying, why did you let this happen to me? or it's recognizing that our hope is in Him and we want to put our faith in Him every day and talk to Him every day and be honest to Him about our feelings. And I think I've done that. And I think what helped me from this book and why it's been so helpful is just I keep going back to as different circumstances come in my life. It's like I have this mental filter: C plus P equals E.

That's the circumstance, the little one or big one, a medium-sized one that's negative or hard or difficult. And then I asked those questions. To get that perspective. And what I would say too, Gary, is that it doesn't come naturally. You have to go into it, you have to retrain your brain and your mind and your expectations around what's true.

People would laugh, but I mean, Chip, where's your focus? Chip, what's your purpose? Chip, where's your hope? Chip. What did you expect?

And then underneath of it, I wrote rejoice in the Lord always. And again, I say rejoice. And then I put a little smiley face on that card. It says, smile. And it says, you know, lighten up, be positive, don't complain, don't seek sympathy.

All of that is on one card. And to this day, it's on my desk right in front.

So every day I stare at that to go into training to realize. I can't control what happens to me. I have 100% control by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit and the strength of His Word. To determine how I respond, what will be my perspective. And as my perspective goes, so goes my life.

That's my hope for those people going through that hard time right now. It doesn't minimize the pain, the loss, the hurt, the sin of other people at all. That's not the message. This is not self-help, talk yourself into a better attitude. Yes, it is.

Seeking God's perspective in the midst of a fallen world that allows you to experience the intimacy of Jesus that produces a supernatural joy in the midst of circumstances that appear to others as completely unbearable, and God sustains you. Yeah. Powerful, powerful message.

Well, Chip, I know that many, many Christians struggle in this area. In fact, maybe all of us struggle in this area. And you know, I hear this often in my office. You know, if God is sovereign, God is all powerful, why does he allow this hard stuff And why did he allow Paul's imprisonment? And shouldn't he make life easier for us if he really loves us?

Speak to tho that thought, those thoughts that people have. You know, I think it touches on maybe the greatest need that we as Christians have and will ever have, maybe always have, is getting an accurate picture of God. And God is in control. But he's also not only sovereign, he's all-wise. and he's all-knowing.

And so he knows the beginning from the end. And the wisdom of God says he brings about the best possible ends. by the best possible means for the most possible people for the longest possible time. And so when he wanted the gospel to go to all the world. And when he wanted Paul to fulfill his purposes, the kindest, most gentle, and best way was for him to be in prison.

chained to guards who would have Exponential impact because of their status, the Praetorian Guards. And he would be in the center of the world's power and people. From strategic places of all around the world, would hear about Paul and his testimony. And so, to fulfill God's purpose, because he's not only sovereign, he's also loving. and all-powerful and kind.

And I think that's That's where we can go. When I had an experience that was, I would just call it the the worst betrayal of my life most painful thing i could I had ever experienced at the time. I struggled and I mean, I was really angry and I went through all of all measure of emotions. And I asked, God, if you're really in control, how could you let this happen? And I went back to if there was a kinder or gentler or better.

way for me to become more like Jesus. And for Jesus to fulfill what he wants to do in me and through me, I would be experiencing that.

Now, you know, I had to check, you know, have I sinned? And that assumption is, as far as I know, I'm walking with the Lord. And when I look back many, many, many, many years now, that actual negative, terrible, painful event opened the door to steps that I would have never taken and directions I would have never considered that probably has shaped everything that God's ever done in my life since. And we don't see the big picture. Kierkegaard said that you can only understand life looking backwards, but you have to live it forwards.

It's in this moment of when it doesn't make sense forwards that you can look back. I often will get groups together and say, I want you to really think hard, and I want you to share with me the most painful, difficult. Ugly, whatever situation that maybe had happened five, 10, 20 years ago, that now when you look back. You see how it was used for good. And remembering those kinds of things in the past often can help us endure.

So much, I think, we want progress, and that's good, but sometimes the greatest progress is you endure. I mean, I don't like today, but I'm going to make it just for today. And then you get up and you just make it only, you know, I can't do this tomorrow, but there's no grace until tomorrow comes. And that's how, you know, you counsel so many people, Gary. What do you say to them when really the goal, God's will, is endure it right now and choose to rejoice even though you don't feel like it?

Yeah. Well, I think that is the key because it's all a matter of perspective. And by nature, I'm empathetic with them. I can see how you would feel what you feel, how you could think what you think. But let's look at the bigger picture, you know, and try to share the kind of things you've shared on this program today.

I do want to ask you another personal question, Chip. At the beginning of our program, you shared that journey with all the back pain and all that you had for their years. I want to know, how's your back situation today?

Well, you know, I worked out this morning, so I didn't used to be able to do that. I got on one of those stair climber things and I can do an exercise bike. I have I have a little struggle standing still for very long and I have a a struggle walking, you know, more than a hundred yards or so I kind of need to sit down. I've had three epidural injections so far this year, and one was somewhat helpful, and the other two weren't.

So I have to take like pain pills all the time. I have a real high pain tolerance, which probably is good. It's probably developed. And I can honestly say, You know, I'm still saying, you know what, Lord? I have seen you supernaturally heal people.

If you want to snap your fingers, I wouldn't even take that. I could be whole one second from now. I don't know how much pain I need to be as dependent as I need to be to do all that you want me to do. All I know is that this season of my life, I'm seeing God work in me and through me in ways that I never dreamed. And I don't want to just get a...

and out for some relief If um Because of my hard-headedness, and I really can be that way, if I need some level of pain. That allows me to be very, very dependent because it has. And I'm at the core of me, you know, maybe everybody else does too, but I can be very self-dependent and very proud and very arrogant. And when I'm in pain, I'm not very tempted to be any of those things.

Well, I ask you that question because I want our listeners to hear and know that you are still going through pain, just as Paul was when he wrote his book. You're not in jail, I understand that, but a lot of pain when you wrote this book. And I really believe that this particular book is going to be used of God to help a lot of people. I cannot imagine that people will just listen to what we're saying today and not want to go get this book because I think God can use the things we've been talking about here to help them have a totally different perspective.

So I just want to thank you for being with us today. I want to thank you for writing this book and for continuing to do, you know, what God has placed in your hands to do in the midst of your present situation, which is what I hope all of us can learn how to do.

Well, thanks so much, Gary, for having me, and thanks for those kind words because one of my love languages is words of affirmation. And I've used those five love languages a zillion times in my personal life and marriage.

So, God bless you, my friend, and keep pressing ahead. Thank you. God bless you. What an encouraging conversation today with Chip Ingram. And if you want to choose joy in whatever circumstance you're in today, go to buildingrelationships.us.

You'll see the book titled, I Choose Joy, Change Your Perspective, Change Your Life. Again, go to buildingrelationships.us. And next week, we're going to take you back for a historic broadcast from 17 years ago. Don't miss our very first Dear Gary broadcast before we called it Dear Gary. That's coming up in one week.

A big thank you to our production team, Steve Wick and Janice Backing. Building Relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of Moody Radio in association with Moody Publishers, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks for listening. Love what you're hearing?

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