Jamie Metzl: Ukraine is fighting for us - it's like the wall from Game of Thrones

With me right now is Jamie Metzl. Jamie, welcome back. Thanks, Brian.

Happy to be here. Hey, Jamie, no one's talking about it now, but do you think China's watching the lack of support that Ukraine is suddenly getting? You think they're watching how Iran is ratcheting up things on us through their surrogates?

Absolutely, Brian. I know you've been a big advocate of support for the people of Ukraine who are fighting for their freedom and independence. It's all one struggle. Everybody is watching everyone. Iran is watching Ukraine and Taiwan. China is watching Ukraine and Iran, and Russia is watching Taiwan and what's happening in Israel. And we need to stand strong on each one of these fronts, because if we just pick and choose and we say, all right, we're supporting Israel, but Ukraine is on its own, we're going to have a problem that are going to be going to be global.

So you had it exactly right from the beginning. What's happening is there is an assault on freedom, on democracy by China, Russia and Iran. And the United States and our allies need to call this with the evil for what it is and stand up to it.

And we also note the alliance. North Korea is providing the artillery. The Russians seem to be providing the intelligence. China weapons have turned up in Gaza within the hands of Hamas.

That is certainly for real. And we also know that the Houthi rebels are almost solely backed by China, excuse me, by Iran. And guess what? They were trying to get the attention. The Saudis were trying to get our attention on this. But this administration totally reversed the policy and told the Saudis you better stand down and told the Houthis you no longer are the terrorists.

So that has been a epic disaster. Yeah, I mean, the Houthis I mean, yes, we can say that we have a conflict with with the Houthis, but Houthis are a creation of Iran. They're controlled by Iran. They're armed by Iran.

So we just need to be honest about who we have this conflict with. And if we're just bombing of a bunch of stuff in the desert in Yemen, we probably need to do that because of these attacks. We need to make pretty clear to Iran that attacks by the Houthis will be perceived as attacks by Iran and made to be smart and strategic. We need to make clear to Iran that enough is enough. Sweden looks like they're going to get admission into NATO and they've made the statement, as is Norway and Finland, that they really expect the Russians to make a move on those fronts in the next couple of years.

I think they have a couple of years. The ramifications of attacking a NATO nation hit home. Don't you think the administration should be making that known that the Russian plans to move forward are not only thought to be concrete, but thought to by the people who are on the border of Russia and that if a ally is hit, we are treaty obligated to respond and that you could walk away from Ukraine, but you just be postponing a major war that we have to be involved in?

Absolutely, Brian. Right now, there are major NATO military exercises in the region in order to deliver that that message. And I guarantee you, as you know, as you said in the intro, the Russians are watching our politics and every day that Congress doesn't support the arms for Ukraine that are so badly needed. When they see American politicians like Donald Trump and some of his surrogates supporting Viktor Orban and saying, hey, this isn't our our struggle, it's really dangerous. We need to make clear across the board, Democrats, Republicans, independents, everybody that America stands for something. It stands for freedom.

It stands for democracy. And we are going to do everything possible to support the brave people in Ukraine in Ukraine who aren't just fighting for themselves. They're fighting for us. They're fighting.

It's like the whatever the wall from Game of Thrones. They are fighting to protect us. And if we don't win that struggle, exactly as you said, we're going to be having to fight struggles that are much closer to home with actual American soldiers fighting in Europe. And if we don't want that in the future, we need to hold strong now. Well, I also think that people are watching and seeing us strung out, knowing that China and Russia, to some degree, are pulling the strings and trying to distract us, shouldn't we have a grand plan on how to not let go of the Pacific, knowing we've got limited assets by the same time responding to threats in the Middle East?

Yeah, completely. And that's why the United States is as strong as we are and we have the strongest military in the history of humans on planet Earth. We can't do it alone. And that's why allies and partners are so important. And all of our allies are watching us to say, hey, will we stand by our allies? Will we stand by our treaty commitments in in Europe to to NATO? Because together, America and our allies and partners are much more powerful than Russia, China and Iran.

But we need to stay together. And that's why I definitely think that the messages of strength are really important. But also those need to be tied to messages of unity and collaboration with our allies. And Europe is starting to get it.

Donald Trump was right. I mean, as always, he didn't say it artfully, but in this case, he was right, saying, hey, Europe isn't carrying its load for the common defense. Europe needs to spend much more on its on developing its military capabilities, do more.

And Germany is it has this hangover because they were living in this fantasy world, basically with under the U.S. security umbrella, feeling like they didn't have any enemies and they could just, you know, not arm themselves and be beneficiaries of trade with with Russia and China without any any responsibility. So I think that we really need to make sure that the message is we need to stand tall. And everybody on in this camp of freedom and democracy has an important role to play.

Yeah, I guess we'll see what's going to happen. One thing is pretty clear, getting everyone to pay two percent's important. And when people at home should be listening to, as Marc Thiessen outlined brilliantly. He said, look, if Latvia, if Estonia, if Poland, if all these other countries see the threat, guess what they're going to need?

Patriot missiles. They're not asking for gifts. They will write the check, especially healthy economies like Norway and Sweden. So you could say we get rid of our old stuff. We bring in the new stuff.

We have customers pay for their stuff. And this is a this is a win for everybody. Yep. No, it's such an essential message, Brian. Again, you've been steadfast on it. But it's really worrying to hear the voices in our in our democracy, in our government, in our elected officials saying, hey, enough is enough with with Ukraine. We shouldn't be fully supporting arming, helping arm Israel.

We shouldn't be supporting and helping arm Taiwan. It's all this is all one struggle. If we lose anywhere, we're likely to lose everywhere. And we have the means to hold strong, as we have done for many decades since the end of World War Two.

But to do it. And it's why I'm always so happy to speak with you, Brian. We need to invest in our commonalities, Democrats like me and Republicans like you. We may not agree on everything, but there's a whole lot that we can agree on as patriotic Americans, wanting our country to be as as effective and powerful and prosperous and values driven as possible. And so we need to invest in those things, because if we become this tribal nation of all these different tribes with no common ground and anybody who reaches across the aisle to try to build a coalition, get hit on the head, regardless of the of the underlying issues, that's going to be very dangerous for us and for the world. So let's talk about China for a second. And people are starting to talk about what WHO's WHO's doing, trying to make trying maneuver to the fact is next time there's a pandemic, they will make the rules on what we here in the U.S. will be able to do or not do.

You know, it's a double edged sword on this sovereignty issue. On one hand, the reason why the WHO couldn't be very effective in the earliest days of the pandemic is they have almost no authority. And so when China was lying, they weren't able to invest to have their own investigative authority. When China blocked the WHO investigators from going to Wuhan, even though there were some really questionable things about it, there was nothing that the WHO could do. So we've all suffered because the WHO isn't empowered. But if we build a WHO with the authorities to do things like do its own investigations when something suspicious is happening in China, that will infringe on national sovereignty everywhere, including our own. And I don't have a perfect answer for that, but it's in all of our interest to have a WHO that can get answers and do some basic things that need to be done on a global level. You know, Jamie, they lost me the way they when they spend the first six months of the pandemic praising China and didn't demand inspection.

I don't want those people control of anything I'm doing. And this guy is not even a doctor who's running the place. But Jamie, Dr. Tedros, Dr. Tedros, what does he do? Well, he's a doctor. He's a doctor.

He's a friend of mine and he's a great guy. But what I will say is that that is that the WHO is they're kind of in a no win situation because for them to have the authorities to do the job, they need to have those authorities. But if they do have them, there are lots of people who who don't trust who don't trust what they're what they're doing. So there's no easy answers to it. Our country has been struggling with this issue since the League of Nations, which we which we rejected after World War One.

And then with World War Two, there was kind of a fudge between national sovereignty and international obligations. So these answers aren't easy. But I think we have to wrestle with them to try to get to the right answer. Right. So, Jamie, the last things we have remaining, we have opportunity. The Russians lost 300000 fighters in Ukraine and there's some unrest within their country that could be exploited. Number one. Number two is China's economy is not reviving.

And it's probably worth whatever we get. It's probably worse than they know. People have lost their ambition. A whole generation is not pursuing jobs like they used to. There are not opportunities like there were. Construction is falling through the through the floor.

Real estate doesn't really exist at this moment. They overbuilt for the population that's decreasing. There are there are five alarm fires inside China.

How do we best take advantage of that? So you're absolutely right. People have thought for a long time that, oh, China, it's just going to get better and stronger and we're going to get weaker and weaker. And it's inevitable that China is taking over the world.

It's not at all. They have terrible weaknesses and terrible flaws. And it all starts with their politics. I mean, when you go to China and Tiananmen Square, you see the portrait of Mao Zedong hanging. He's responsible for the deaths of 47 million Chinese people. So the entire Chinese Communist Party is based on a foundation of lies and murder and and repression. And so definitely we need to hold strong and not let China do these things that they're getting away with.

And whether it's on trade or aggression in the South China Sea or Taiwan or all sorts of other things. And the other thing that we need to do is we need to invest in making America as strong as it can be. And that means with a flourishing, strong democracy, a flourishing, strong economy. And politics are a healthy part of our democracy, but we need to prevent our our politics from becoming a dumpster fire of tribalist destruction. And so there have been times when we've come together as in the Second World War and other times we say, hey, we have a big job to do. We recognize we have differences and we need to respect those differences and negotiate them. But we need to find a way.

The government is about compromise and we can't all be extremists on one side or the other. We need to find the best way forward together. We are blessed in this country with incredible geography, incredible people, the most talented people in the world. If you're not already here, most want to come here. Right. We've got everything.

But we need to make sure that our processes are making us stronger and not weaker. He is Jamie Metzl. Jamie, thanks so much. Appreciate it.