Producers' Pick | John Cribb on Abraham Lincoln's unlikely journey from log cabin to the White House

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Truth you demand. This is the Brian Kilmeade Show. Hey, welcome back everyone. Let's take a break from what's breaking in the news and talk about something that helps make our country what it is today. John Cribb knows all about it. He's maybe the nation's foremost Lincoln expert.

He's got a brand new book out called The Rail Splitter. You know, he also had the one out, Old Aid, that Mike Pence called the best Lincoln book he ever read. So John Cribb, at a time in which we need a great leader from an unlikely source, that is really what Lincoln was.

If anyone looked at someone unlikely to become president, it had to be Lincoln when he started and then, of course, his rise. John, welcome back. Thank you for having me, Brian. I appreciate it.

Before I forget, congratulations on the one-year anniversary of One Nation. It's a fantastic show. Oh, thanks so much, John Cribb. Appreciate it.

This Saturday night's at 8 Eastern time. So John, you do Old Aid. The Rail Splitter was what they used to sell Lincoln when he ran for office because he really used to sell Lincoln. He did. That's who he was. He used to want to run away from that image, but then they said, embrace it.

America will embrace it. Why did you write this one? I wrote it partly because something my grandfather said to me many years ago when I was much younger. He said, John, you know, if you really want to know the man, you got to know the boy.

In other words, you got to know where somebody was from, how they grew up, what kind of shaped them as they were growing up. And so that's what the Rail Splitter is the story of Abraham Lincoln before he was president. And so it starts him off as a teenager on the Indiana frontier in 1826.

And then you're just at his side as he makes his way from the woods of Indiana to the prairies of Illinois and finally to the threshold of the White House. It is a fascinating story. It's an important story. In a lot of ways, it's the story of the American dream.

Generations of Americans have known and loved it, and I don't want us to lose that. Right. And the other thing people should know about the Midwest right then, it was as rough and tumble as anything, right?

Yeah, yeah. It was a rough and tumble place. And he literally wrestles his way.

You know, into prominence. And he has all kinds of his life is a really of an adventure story early on. I mean, you know, twice he built big, huge flat boats with buddies and floated them all the way down the Mississippi River to sell some frontier produce like live pigs and corn whiskey in New Orleans. And that first trip, they were attacked by river pirates and had to fight them off.

So it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a great story, but it's also a very inspiring story, right? He had to do that. He had this big wrestle against the big one was against Armstrong, right? Exactly right.

And that little village frontier village of New Salem, where he really first went into politics and lived there for six years and six formative years in his life. Right. They said, you know, you know, Lincoln, you're such a great wrestler, take on the best wrestler around. And him and Jack Armstrong won at it. They still disputed who won. Bottom line is they both fought so well to each other, they end up being lifetime friends.

Right. And they were the people there really admired the way that he handled himself in that in that wrestling match. And they did end up being lifetime friends. And, you know, Lincoln was great at seizing challenges and opportunities like that, that came his way. And that's one of the lessons of his life is that, you know, seizing opportunities. And Lincoln knew that this was a land of opportunity. And this book is a good reminder of that. This is the land of opportunity. It still is. Right.

And it's somebody wouldn't matter where your circumstances are, you can overcome it and who knows what heights you can reach. So when you when you have a youth, he was he was his dad had no interest in in him studying, but he had a thirst for education. Correct? Yeah, he really did. He, you know, he in terms of formal schooling, he may be our last least educated president. He used to say to his father, send him to school by littles.

He said a little here and a little there. And he had less than one year of schooling his entire life. And that took place in little log cabin schoolhouses on the Kentucky and Indiana frontiers. But he loved learning. He loved reading. He literally would walk miles to get his hands on a book if he if he could.

He used to say that my best friend is the man who can get me a book. And so he was he was self taught. And, and that is a real inspirational story to his mom dies young, but she was pro education, as was his stepmom.

Right? Yes, he really has his stepmother, Sally Lincoln, is a very influential figure in his life. His as you say, his mom dies young, Nancy Hanks, Lincoln, his father remarries, and his father takes a dim view of too much education. He really wants Lincoln to be a farmer, you know, he realized he's a big strong kid. And he, he thinks that, you know, that's the way to go land has always been the way you you know, you're going to be.

You make it and link. That's the last thing Lincoln wanted to be as a farmer and his stepmother, Sally Lincoln, even though she has little education herself, she really could not write, for example. But she saw that link that thirst for learning and realized there was something special there and made way for him to to learn and to read.

Right? He loved the Bible, right? Love to read the Bible. Yeah, yeah, the Bible as like many frontier families, the Bible was, you know, one of the few books that they actually had in the cabin there in Indiana. And, you know, Lincoln really was a creature of the Bible and Shakespeare, those are the two probably the two sources of, of literature that that influenced him the most.

And of course, the Bible in the long run, gives him a great you know that that he becomes a man of deep faith and during the White House years, and that faith gives them I think, the strength and a lot of the wisdom that he needs to be a great president. So what what got you so interested in Lincoln and all the historical figures? You know, it goes way back to my mom, when I was before I could even read, we'd sit on the sofa in Spartanburg, South Carolina, where I grew up with me and my mom, my brother and sister, and she read all kinds of books and stories. And one of the books she read to us was a book called Abe Lincoln, Frontier Boy by Augusta Stevenson, and I have vivid memories of her reading from that book and others about Lincoln out on the frontier, you know, living in a log cabin and splitting firewood and all that stuff.

And that just pulled me in those stories. You know, it's a real lesson that those books that you're exposed to early on in life can really influence you for the rest of your life. So, you know, obviously, when you look, when you look back in time, you always judge people by the time they live, not the time we're in. When did that change here? Yeah, historians call that presentism.

And, you know, I'm not sure exactly when it changed, but it sure has picked up speed in the last 10 years or so. And it's very dangerous to judge people through the lens of the 21st century, because once we go down that road, nobody survives. You know, everybody's a product of their times. And if we treat people to that kind of judgment, people who lived decades or centuries ago, nobody passes muster. And we want, someday when people look back at us, we have to remember, we do want to view people, you know, with straight lenses and see them for warts and all.

But we have, we can't zero in and nitpick. We have to remember that take people the totality of their lives. And Lincoln, you know, he was flawed like all of us. But when you stand back and look at his record, I mean, he was that giant hero that saved our country when it's literally falling apart. He led the fight to save our founding principles when a lot of people wanted to throw him overboard. And he helped lead the fight to free millions of enslaved Americans.

That's a pretty good record. I wouldn't want to go up against it myself. This business is very self-centered of looking at people through our own time. John Cribb, the historian and author of the brand new book, The Rail Splitter. So, John, you chose to do this in a novel way, like bring him to life, meaning it's on the fiction side, but it's all based in fact, right? Yes.

Yes. And I did that for several reasons. One, there are tons, as you know, tons of great nonfiction books out there about Lincoln, including, I want to put a plug in for your book, President of the Freedom Fighters, a truly wonderful read. But I really did want to try to bring him to life. And, you know, fiction can do that way in ways that nonfiction can't. But I really spent a lot of time researching him to make sure that this is the real Lincoln. You know, he's not chasing vampires or killing zombies or anything like that. This is the real Lincoln.

And there's a date on the top of each chapter. And I think if you can just walk with them on that journey from Log Cabin to the White House and then with The Rail Splitter and then with Old Abe through his White House years and just, you know, know his story as it goes along, it's a great way to bring him alive. It helps us love Lincoln.

And that I think that's what we need to know. You know, those old heroes that are being torn off their pedestals now and taken out of school books like Lincoln and Washington and Madison, they are part of those mystic chords of memory that Lincoln spoke of in the first inaugural address. They're part of the fabric of our nation. They're part of our common currency.

And if we lose them, we are in real trouble in this country. There's no question about it. The other thing is, is it possible to study Lincoln, study his presidency and not be angered by the fact that he never got to really fulfill his second term and what he could have done at our second most critical time? The first time was when the secession happens, but the second time was the coming back together. Yeah, yeah. Isn't it an intriguing question that historians have wondered about, you know, through the years because he was so devoted to the Union and reconciliation, forgiveness.

Yeah, yeah. He really, you know, this famous words in his second inaugural address when a lot of people wanted revenge against the South. He said, no, no, we need to move forward with malice toward none and with charity for all and bind up the nation's wounds. And that's really what he wanted. He didn't want to be just the president that could win the war. He wanted to be the president that could win the war and then keep the peace. And he unfortunately, you know, did not get that chance because Reconstruction was a bad, bad time. So if you think about it, three of our best presidents, certainly most impactful, are almost accidental. I mean, you look at Lincoln, if they weren't dividing the vote back then with this new Republican Party, he probably didn't win. He didn't get majority votes.

Right. And then you have Harry Truman. Nobody thought that Harry Truman was presidential material. FDR put him on just basically to get Missouri and to replace another inadequate vice president. He ends up being, I think, a very great president. And then Teddy Roosevelt.

They said, hey, you know, this guy's tearing up the New York. He's he's blowing up all these alliances we have. Let's make him vice president.

McKinley takes him and McKinley gets shot. So, and then Lincoln's at the head of the class, but isn't amazing in America's past. The unlikeliest people lead us through the darkest times. Yeah, it's almost it's almost like the magic of America, isn't it?

It really is. And I suppose it's the wisdom of the people, too, you have to say. But it is, as you say, Lincoln was a dark horse. He won less than 40 percent of the popular vote when he was elected. So, you know, people who people who claim that you can't have a you're not a legitimate president, if you don't win the majority of the vote, need to need to remember Lincoln and some of those other great presidents.

Right. So you focus on the younger Lincoln and how it formed who he is today. But just lastly, just on that, it wasn't for the Lincoln-Douglas debates where Lincoln lost, but he was for himself so well.

And those debates were printed in every newspaper across the country. People understood how special he was. And sometimes in life, you know, your your glory is delayed. But it's not tonight. In that case, it was he didn't become senator. But, man, the best was yet to come.

Yes. And he he told his friend David Locke after he lost that election. David Locke was a was he wrote under the pen name Petroleum Nasby is one of Lincoln's favorite, favorite humorous. And he said, you know, he said, we lost the election. But he said, I'm glad we had those debates. He said, we talked thousands of people who had never given slavery much of a thought to hate it. And he said, he said, he said, slavery is doomed now and it's just a matter of time.

So even though he lost those the election, he those debates make made him president. How do you handle John, his relationship with his dad? You know, very much, I think the same way you did in the present freedom fighter pretty much take the same view. I think Lincoln's dad, you know, they just didn't do a fundamental misunderstanding between them in that Lincoln's dad simply did not understand the value of of education. Lincoln doing all this, this reading. And I think that sometimes, you know, he did probably beat Lincoln and a lot about went on on the frontier. And, of course, Lincoln, when he died, didn't go to his funeral.

But so there was that. But on the other hand, I think that a lot of ways he was a good father. He was definitely a hard worker. His friends and neighbors liked him, said he was a good guy. And he apparently had a really great sense of humor and could tell a great story. And Lincoln inherited that from his father, Tom Lincoln. So we have we have Tom Lincoln to think to thank for that. John Cribb, congratulations on the rail splitter.

Go out and get it. Another reason to love America. Great story. Someone comes from nowhere to become possibly one of the greatest president of all time. John, thank you. Thank you, Brian. Thanks for all you do to help keep history alive for absolutely.