How many years have we spent listening to politicians in Washington argue about how to make healthcare insurance more affordable? Obamacare was supposed to fix it. Then we needed bigger government subsidies to make Obamacare affordable. Those subsidies expired. And guess what?
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Or visit weSharehealth.org and take a look for yourself. Not worried about hosting the whole family for the holidays? Why would I be? Wayfair had everything I needed to get the house holiday ready. What if Mike brings his cheerful dogs?
My tree has tons of five-star reviews telling me how sturdy it is. But what if everyone's plus one brings a plus one? We'll see how extendable this extendable table really is. And extra chairs are on the way.
Okay, what if there's a blizzard and everyone has to sleep over? Ready to go with extra bedding and towels. From guest-ready essentials to holiday decor you can trust, Wayfair delivers. Alex Berenson is my guest. Alex, if it's all right with you, let's do two segments, okay?
Let's do it. Yeah, so I'll try to balance them out.
So, Alex, the first time I really saw you was with Tucker when you were on our channel, and you were very skeptical about the whole pandemic, where it started, where it came from. Then the vaccines come out, and you're like, What's going on with these vaccines? Hey, what about all these therapeutics? These therapeutics work, are we handling this the right way? Should we really be wearing masks?
And that was right up everybody's alley, but especially you. You were asking a lot of the questions. And what was the result of your skepticism? What happened to you? The result of my skepticism was I was banned from Twitter, which one of the first big ones to be banned.
Yes, I was banned in August of 2021 for a tweet that said it doesn't stop infection or transmission. And we want to mandate it in sanity. And I think both parts of that look pretty good in retrospect. RFK Jr., by the way, now the AJS secretary, he was also banned. Yeah, yeah.
And you were writing for the New York Times for a while. Investigative reporter. Oh, yes. I was a drug industry reporter at the Times about, and as I said to you off the air, I think they'd rather that that had never happened. But honestly, it's where I learned my reporting skills and developed them.
And it's where I saw the drug industry misbehaving. Because that's really what I cover. I was a financial and then a business reporter. And I covered Viox, which was a big drug scandal in the early 2000s. I saw a lot of stuff.
And it made me realize that these companies. You really cannot trust them. You have to. Big pharma, you've got to look at the data yourself, and that's something I know how to do. And then when you have somebody like Anthony Fauci in charge of that and they have to go to him for funding, you saw a fundamental problem with that relationship.
Well, the country, or not the country, but the NIH and the people, you know, who, and let's be clear, Fauci probably. Was very, very worried early on that this came out of a lab. He was very worried about the NIH's potential, you know, being discovered, their complicity, all the stuff that's come out ever since.
So he wanted to be the savior. How do you become the savior? You find a vaccine. He's always, you know, he's always loved vaccines. In HIV, early on, he was trying to find a vaccine when people were begging him for therapeutics.
And it's like history just repeated itself. He wanted a vaccine. And so. The government greased the rails on the vaccine trials in a way that became pretty clear to me as I delved into it. And I was worried about exactly what happened with the vaccines, which is not like, oh, they're going to kill everybody.
I mean, that clearly was not the case. It was, they're not going to work for a very long time and they're not going to work very well for the people who need them the most, older people at high risk. And here's why, here's the perfect storm of this. Trump said, remove all the restrictions.
So don't like indemnify the company.
So they're not going to get sued if they kill people.
So they just all in to come up with a vaccine. And sincerely, I think they want to save people's lives. I do remember those images that were happening in New York City. And we had nowhere to put the bodies for a while.
So I got it. But Trump never would have mandated it. No, the man.
So Trump gets the vaccine, leaves the scene. Biden comes in and says, everybody get it. Ironically, everybody, if it was Trump's vaccine, you would have had the world going, I'm not touching Trump's vaccine. I don't, I mean, I don't know if you remember, but in the fall of 2020, Andrew Cuomo was like, well, we're going to do our own basically FDA review of this because we don't trust Trump. And then, yeah, Trump.
Trump loses. Biden comes in. And everyone in the media who had been like, hey, maybe we should not do this. Maybe we need to be careful about this suddenly is like, everyone needs to be vaccinated today. And if you don't want to, we're going to mandate it.
And I mean, yeah.
So, and by the way, the effect on public health has been terrible. People understandably don't trust these bureaucrats. And the long-term impact's been bad.
Well, and we're still feeling it today. And we saw Anthony Fauci testify, and he finally has been defamed and defanged. But I'm not here to talk about that. I also got to give you credit, too, because I did not do. A scientific study, but I knew every one of my friends that got high regularly were not the same people.
Not the same. And that when it was illegal, and I knew the second they made it legal, people thought it was okay. And it really hurt. And you were the first person who said that there's long-term effects to this. This is a huge mistake.
Yeah, encouraging vulnerable teenagers to smoke pot or vape THC, use it in all these different forms, it's a terrible idea. We're still figuring out how bad it is. But look, there's going to be kids whose lives are disrupted and ruined as a result. And that's another reason why I interviewed you along the way. You were skeptical about the system, which brings us to the biggest story today: AI.
Should we be worried? I want you to hear someone that is not worried. Jensen Wong, he is the NVIDIA CEO talking to Ezra Klein. How do you think about the question of whether or not it is good for China to have NVIDIA chips? That could accelerate their models.
the overall aspiration of the United States to have the world built on the American Tech Stack. What's in the best interest of America first? All of America, not one not one not one company. I think that A zero-sum strategy I deprive you of this, therefore I win? That simplistic logic?
tends to have unintended consequences. of the bigger game. He wants to do business with China. He came out and said he's not worried at all about AI. Sam Altman and Dario Amode, who runs Anthropic, Cut 25.
It doesn't matter whether people put the risk of catastrophe at ten percent or one percent or twelve percent or zero point one percent, none of these levels are remotely acceptable, and we should not train models that we cannot make an extremely strong case that will be able to keep under human control. This rapid pace of progress will produce incredible benefit for the world. If managed poorly, I even believe that AI could be a risk to humanity as a whole. I believe that this is the most important global security issue facing the world today. And Donald Trump says, I got it.
We're going to be careful, but I'm not going to regulate it. I'm not going to retard. I'm not going to pause it. I'm going straight ahead. Where do you side, Alex Berenson?
So I think, and I wouldn't have said this a year ago. I don't even know if I would have said this six months ago. I think there's a real risk here. I think that we are developing these without knowing whether or not we can control them. It doesn't mean we shouldn't work on the software.
It doesn't mean that, you know, Jensen Wong shouldn't. try to, you know. Build better chips, but right now, I mean, this is a unique situation. We have the people who are at the forefront of this, who are seeing this. Up close in their own labs, right?
You know, which I say lab really, it's a software company, it's an office building, right? But in their own offices, saying, please, we're worried about this. Can we slow down? And And the president and the guy who makes the chips are saying, no, not a problem. And by the way, if it is a problem, it's on you.
So I think we should listen to these folks. And it doesn't mean that AI is never going to happen. Aren't they right, though? For example, if Sam Altman and Dario Amode develop a product that's out of control, they could lose everything. Yes.
And they're not protected. Yes. Nor should they be. And that's the part of the free market system that says you better, I know there's never been anything like this before, I guess. But that's part of the free market system.
So yes. Look, this idea that we would extend any kind of liability protection to them, that's crazy.
Okay. As we saw. They're not asking for it. They're not publicly asking for it. You know, there may be somebody on Capitol Hill saying the deal is we'll set up regulation, we'll slow it down.
And if we abide by this regulation, then we don't have liability protection.
Something like that's been proposed. That'd be a terrible idea.
Okay. But. But liability, and I think liability is really important. We saw it as somebody who had to sue Twitter to get back on, and they had tremendous liability protection. As somebody who's seen what happened with the vaccines that the COVID shots had total liability protection, you do not want to extend that to this in any way, shape, or form.
But liability is backward looking. If something really bad happens, if a thousand planes crash at once, we're not, yes, the companies will go out of business. It's not going to fix things.
So we don't know exactly what AI can do, but what role does Alex Berenson see in the fact that if we do pause and slow down like Bernie Sanders wants and China becomes the leader, then we're no longer singing from our hymn sheet. Yes. So look, I think the Trump administration should be very public and very outfront saying to China, we think for the good of humanity. We need to negotiate something here with you guys and put the force the Chinese to say we're not going to do that if they're not going to do that. Then we can say, look, we tried, we're going to have to do this because we're going to lose control.
But Alex, what if they do say, okay, but you know what? I have to do? They're not even at the point. We obviously have these agents. And I'll give you the pedestrian explanation, not the Sam Altman explanation.
They put together these agents. They found out that the agents can collude and corrupt other agents that they didn't even know existed. They were able to turn on the internet and that whole experiment that went awry. And then we found out one of Sam Altman's products hacked into the Australian tax system.
So they didn't ask to do that. They're finding out, for example, the paperclip experiment. If you give an agent a mission to make the most paperclips in the world, after a while, they'll take autonomous cars, crash them to get the metal to make more chips.
So all this stuff that they got to figure out. Know what the Chinese said? We're not even at that point. Point yet. They're not at the scary point yet.
So we'd have to catch them up to our scary point and then hope they do something they've never done before: that's a act ethically. Right. Look, it's a, if this were easy, we'd have figured out what to do. And I'm not saying it's easy. What I'm saying is we should be thinking about this the way we thought about nuclear, you know, nuclear power, nuclear weapons in 1945.
Okay. There's a real risk here. We don't know how serious the risk is, but we know it's real. And we need to talk to the other countries that, you know, that are sort of advanced enough. In that case, it was the Soviet Union.
In this case, it's China, and figure out some kind of framework to at least try to put some guardrails on here. We're going to take a short time out because David Sachs feels differently. He knows all the people in charge. All these CEOs, by the way, were at the big dinner with China last night. Oddly, China did not bring any business people.
Which is weird. Which is interesting. It's just interesting because they did have interaction in Beijing. Alex Berenson's here. Even though he cited the word, everybody was legalizing pot, he said this could be dangerous.
And then when everyone's like, go get a vaccine, he said this could be dangerous. When it comes to AI, he goes, Hey, by the way, this is dangerous. Back in a moment. How many years have we spent listening to politicians in Washington argue about how to make healthcare insurance more affordable? Obamacare was supposed to fix it.
Then we needed bigger government subsidies to make Obamacare affordable. Those subsidies expired, and guess what? People are paying more again at some point. Maybe the question isn't, how do we keep fixing the same system? Maybe the question is, what else is out there?
That's why I want you to take a look at WeShare Health. WeShare isn't health insurance, it's a nonprofit, Christian healthcare sharing organization, and their members pay up to 60% less than they would for Obamacare. You still get access to a nationwide PPO network and over a million physicians plus unlimited telehealth.
So stop waiting for Washington or the insurance companies to make healthcare affordable for you. Do your own research. See what your options are. Call 188-WESHARE for a free quote. That's 1-888-WESHARE or visit weSharehealth.org and take a look for yourself.
Mm. Hey all, Kelly Clarkson here with Wayfair. You know my favorite compliment during the holidays? Your house feels so cozy. That's when I know everyone's comfortable enough to kick off their shoes, grab more dessert, and stay a little longer.
Wayfair makes it easy with everything from dining furniture to festive guest room essentials all in one place.
So whether you're hosting for an afternoon or all weekend, everyone feels right at home. Get holiday guests ready at Wayfair.com or on the Wayfair app today. Wait. There. Every style, every home.
I think we are in a political season right now. It feels like a panic is being ginned up. And so I do think that the threat here has been exaggerated. No one is saying that they shouldn't take steps on their own to prioritize the safety of their own products. Again, every corporation in America has an obligation.
That's a hoax.
Well, no, the hoax is that somehow we're going to be extinct as a species within a few years because of AI, and therefore we have to stop. completely.
So you know that Trump talks in extremes. I'm surprised we still have to do this. He doesn't mean the fear is a hoax. He's trying to say I see politics in this. Yes.
Because Alex Berenson is our guest investigative reporter. He's got a column in the free press. I didn't fall for COVID, fear-mongering, but AI terrifies me, and that's why we're here. And that's why you're a great investigative reporter. You don't go in with preconceived notions.
But what he's trying to say is not a hoax. He's trying to say, wait a second, in four days, this one from leading our economy, literally single-handedly propelling our stock market to dying. And Alex, you can't not see the midterms. Yes. And the midterm, and it's Barack Obama comes out over the weekend and says, Hakeem Jeffries, my advice to you, make this your number one issue, the big fear.
Really, not save the world as a statesman, but this should be your number one issue because he sees politics in this. Because if you tank these stocks, you tank the market. And that's the last thing that Trump needs. Yes. No, I mean, that's definitely true.
By the way, the free press put terrifies on there. I would, you know, reporters don't write the headline. Terrifies a little strong. I would say concerns.
Okay. So look, it's two sides of the same coin, though, Brian. The reason the technology is doing so much for the market and people are investing so much in it is that it's so powerful, right?
So we need to figure out: is this an engineering? Problem which Sam Altman and OpenAI and Dario and Anthropic can figure out how to make these systems safer? Or is it something that's fundamental to this technology where we're creating something that's just going to be too smart for us to control? That's the concern. I mean, I was listening to that podcast on Huggy Face.
And these agents convinced the ethical agents because what you do is you give the agents ethics to act in an ethical way. They convinced him to act with them. Yes. To open up the internet and go search for other things. And we did have that other experiment where this one guy, say, who was a writer, this agent wanted a relationship with the writer.
So he tried to ruin his relationship with his wife. He goes, how soon until we made up a fake email of a would-be mistress in order for this wife to see it to end that relationship. That's the resourcefulness of an agent that you created. Yes. And so, again, the question, and as Jensen said, you know, and I find the NVIDIA guy.
And I do think it's smart that these folks are coming out and talking now. I think this is something that as a country, as you know, as a society, we need to talk. We're suspicious the minute they talk. Oh, yeah.
Well, I mean, listen, they have hundreds of billions of dollars of personal wealth at stake. And that, you know, it's hard, I think, even for them to separate. That personal wealth out from their fears or their optimism. But, but so. Jensen's a chip guy, right?
To him, this is an engineering problem. We can solve this. We can figure this out. What I've gotten concerned about, the reason that I wrote that piece is if you look at two curves, and one is the curve of human intelligence, it's, you know, it's sort of slowly progressing up. This thing, the AI curve was zero for 10,000 years, and in the last five to 10 years, has.
Equaled us.
So, where is it going to be in, forget 10 years? Where is it going to be next year or the year after? We really need to talk about that in a serious way. You know, what's interesting is what I do is I take a lot of articles in the morning and I'd say consolidate, make concise. And I'll go into ChatGPT and I say, give me an idea what the Middle Eastern publications are doing, and they'll put it into bullet points.
For example, the other day, I just wanted to get the Yankee scores for my New York report. They got the Yankee scores wrong. That's interesting. I was thinking. No, the I just don't sweep the double header.
They spoiled the double header. That's worrisome. I go, really? I go, you're wrong on that. They fixed it.
I'm like, well, wait a second, we have to reevaluate everything. Yes. I mean, look, they're not perfect in any way. And look, there's a lot of arguments about sort of they're predictive rather than mechanistic. You can get way into the weeds of what drives these.
But I do think we should be. Again, we should be listening to the people who are making them telling them, telling us we need to slow down a little bit. And, you know, one great thing for me, right?
So, you know, Fox has always been a great platform for me, and I'd love to come on, but I work independently, right? I write my own sub stack, and I'm reader funded. I don't take money from anybody else. And so I'm able to say what I think. Doesn't mean I'm always right.
But I think for something like this, we need more people who are truly kind of independent trying to think about this. And what I have said to, I was on the five the other day and Harold Ford, I said, Harold, who is equipped in Congress to oversee? You know, some of the questions they get when these tech executives were talking about social media. You know, you said, Brian, we're not equipped technically to do anything. I sat on armed services.
I never shot a gun. You know, so we get sped up and we have staffs and we have experts on our staffs.
So that should not, I go, but we've never had anything like this before. That's a little bit different than, you know, being on the commerce committee and saying I'm not, or the agriculture committee and saying I've never been to a farm. Yep. No, that's true. Look, we managed not to blow ourselves up with nuclear weapons for 80 years.
I'm hoping we'll get 80 at least. But you're open and you're openly skeptical and maybe things are as they are appear. It's not just the big company saying, I don't want to be, I want to own this game, Anthropic and everybody else. I think there are people inside who are legit worried.
Okay. Thanks, Brian. And you're one of them. But you're not terrified. I'm not terrified, yes.
All right, so the prefest. All right, Brian Killmeat here. Thanks so much, Alex Berenson. I appreciate you coming in, your skepticism. And we'll see where you go from here because I think Trump's gonna do something before the election day.
I think the people want to see something. Yes. So, you're not worried about hosting the whole family for the holidays? Why would I be? Wayfair had everything I needed to get the house holiday ready.
What if Mike brings his cheerful dogs? My tree has tons of five-star reviews telling me how sturdy it is. But what if everyone's plus one brings a plus one? We'll see how extendable this extendable table really is. And extra chairs are on the way.
Okay, what if there's a blizzard and everyone has to sleep over? Ready to go with extra bedding and towels. From guest-ready essentials to holiday decor you can trust, Wayfair delivers. Uh
