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Shannon, have you ever met Trey Gowdy? In person, yes. And we trade hair tips and some legal stuff. I mean, we're both crusty old legal lawyer types, but it's really more about the hair when Trey and I get together. Really?
I always thought that you were more substantive person. I am not. You should know better than that. I'm much more about what's the latest moose, what's the latest styling technique? They're still working on moose, right?
Yeah. I mean, that's giving me my 1980s giveaway. Yes. I'm all about the moose.
So, Trey Gowdy, welcome. Brian, how are you? Thank you for letting me be paired with one of the smarter creatures in the world. Right. I mean, this should be a, it's going to be very hard to turn this into an insult Don Rickles-like segment, right?
Because have you guys ever said anything bad about anybody? But as long as I'm not the subject of the roast, Trey and I, we could team up on Brian. I don't know. He's so nice. It's hard.
He's very hardworking. Incredible. And you know what else he does? What? There are times when he knows I'm not feeling great.
And even though he works all the time, he says, if you need me to cover your nine o'clock show, I'll take two hours. Yeah. Oh my goodness. He's so generous in spirit. I know.
I mean, he offers to let me walk his dogs. That's what he offers me. But you know, I would like that. The sound of regret is now out. Do you know that?
I do. I've got my coffee. I'm so excited. This week, did it came out this week or last week? Tuesday, yes, sir.
Yeah, on Tuesday. Did you get a preview copy, Brian? Are you not in the future? I got that. I got Trey Gowdy personally previewed it for me.
Okay, well.
So just this is, I want to get this framed out with another lawyer here. This is taken from, your story is taken from the courtroom, right? That's from your years of experience. But it also talks about regret.
So when there are witnesses that come forward and aren't protected, and then they lose their lives. Yes. And then you have to live with that. That's the premise this is built on, right? And the conversation with the mom who trusted you.
Right. That's what regret sounds like, if you're wondering. Right. It's. It's what your heart is telling you as you ask a young man to trust you and his mom and you let him down.
And that you put that, you thought it would be, you put that into a story because it's obviously intriguing, but it's got to be painful. Uh it is painful. I mean w the To her everlasting credit, Sylvine Samuel, she's no longer with us, but Sylvine never blamed me for it. She viewed it as me giving her son a chance to avoid two decades in prison, which I did. But I blame myself despite her forgiveness.
I want folks to see: we give these young men. Look, I'm not minimizing what they do. Selling drugs is wrong, but it doesn't carry a death sentence. And when I lay out for you, you can spend two decades in a federal prison or you can put on this wire and go buy off of somebody in your drug organization. That is a tough choice.
And they decided to put the wire on.
Some say, I've had plenty of them say, I can sleep for 20 years. I'm not helping you. I'm not going to be a snitch. I'm not going to be a rat. And then I've had some, but You know, the real conversation is how you talk them into it.
And I remember exactly what I said to Ricky. I said, you have a really cute girlfriend? I doubt she's going to wait on you. Oh What do you think about that? The girlfriend angle.
I mean, I love Trace Writing because it is informed by his real-life experience. I never practiced criminal law or in that space, and so it's fascinating. And there's so many ethical dilemmas that you really have to do to weigh through to be a successful prosecutor. I don't like moral ambiguity in my real life, but I like that things are not as easy as they. Appear to be.
I have a cop character in this book named Bones who colors outside the lines. Is that okay to get the right result? Or are you supposed to be like the prosecutor who's a rule follower no matter what, even if it leads you not where you want to go?
So I like moral ambiguity because life is complicated. Right. Well, if it's complicated for you guys, imagine the rest of the world. Imagine being Brian Kilmead walking through this crazy world. That is very.
So, for example, you talk about complicated this Clancy case, you talk about complicated. I mean, You see it right now. People say, well, you guys don't understand postpartum repression.
Well, what about killing three kids, her own kids? And now we'll wait as the jury deliberates. And we see the fact that the husband When Afra errands, he's moved on. She sits there in the courtroom paralyzed because she tried to take her own life. Slitting a wrist and jumping out a window.
So she does that at the same time. You say, well, you don't know what it's like, what woman who was displaying. Uh great ability as a mom. would ever do that if she was in in clear thought.
So there there's no There's nothing cut and dry about this tray. That is what you have to overcome as a prosecutor: the presumption is something must be wrong. Normal, quote, normal people, which is not a psychiatric term, but normal people don't do this. To me, it's somewhere between Susan Smith and Andrea Yates.
So Andrea Yates was adjudicated not guilty because she was so mentally ill. Susan Smith, Took seven minutes to watch those two boys drown in Union, and she watched the car submerge. She wasn't insane. She wanted no children. She wanted a new boyfriend.
So normal people cannot relate to harming a child.
So our instinct is something must be wrong with you.
So, the prosecutor's job is to say, well, that doesn't let you off the hook. Just because something, quote, may be wrong with you. That same voice that told her to strangle her kids was also smart enough to say, invoke your Miranda, right?
So, it was a pretty smart voice she was listening to. Go ask for your lawyer.
So, I'd be very curious: would you, Channel, would you ever, and Trey, would you ever put her on stand? I wouldn't. I wouldn't, as a lawyer, that's the last thing I would do. I think the minute she's open to direct and cross-examination, I think it opens a world of trouble for her defense. I wouldn't do it.
It's so hard for defense attorneys because I used to say, what do you call defendants who don't testify? Inmates. Because the jury expects you to take those 12 steps and go explain to them what happened. On the other hand, what is your explanation? I mean, I would say, how long did it take you to strangle your first child?
I mean, what's a good answer to that question? Yeah, there's how about the second one? How hard did the second one fight?
Well, I'll be honest, Mr. Gowdy, I don't remember. How about that? Yeah, I blacked out. I was not in the right mind.
I was on 17 different drugs. I have no recollection. How many of those drugs were forced to you and how many did you take voluntarily? And were you taking them as prescribed? Right.
I mean, that's another question.
So I think. Gosh, I think you make such a good Uh you know Representation of those two cases that you pointed out. And I think a lot of people at home who are not sitting in the jury box, if you're not sitting there listening to every second of testimony and wading through all of the documents and wading through the jury instructions, it's easy to be on the outside and be on TikTok and have opinions about this whole thing. It's much different to sit there and listen to the whole thing and go through the legal standards. Every state is different.
Massachusetts, and now with the introduction of possibility, this lesser-included charge of manslaughter, I mean, that makes things interesting for the jury, too, that's looking for some maybe possibly kind of off-ramp or compromise. What about the fact that nine of the jurors are women? Would that make you feel good or bad as a prosecutor? Women are really tough on other women, particularly in sex assault cases. I would be more interested in how many are mothers or how many have been primary caregivers for children.
Because my fear would be having that many female jurors that one may say, well, I'm a mom. And I had some struggles after my pregnancy, but I would never in a million years. Or there may be one that says, look, I had some thoughts I'm not proud of too. That's uh sex assault cases is one of the great Kind of Misnomers in life, Brian, is you would think you would want women on a rape case, but you don't because they are so tough, in some cases on other women. Right.
Shannon, are you taking this personal? No. Is that true then? But well, yeah, I do think women are very hard on other women, just in life in general. They definitely are.
But when I think about this case, I think, gosh, there's so much you have to explain that's beyond, like I said, these headlines, these TikTok things that you have to think about. But a lot of people are going to say, okay, if the argument is that she wasn't well psychologically and she killed three people, where do you draw the line on that? I mean, you think about Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy. Of course, these people aren't well, but can they be held liable for their actions? Can they be held criminally liable?
What about somebody who's not feeling well and goes and shoots up a school? I mean, there are just so many other places you have to take that conversation if you're willing to say, in this case, You know, in some way we're going to excuse her killing three children because she was struggling psychologically. You know, but where does that where does that logic end? How can we help make stronger communities happen?
Well, at JPMorgan Chase, we invest in what's working. Because when businesses can grow, that growth means more jobs for more people and more goods that can go to more restaurants and main streets and schools in the communities we love. Make the green grass grow all around, all around, make the green grass grow all around. Make momentum happen. Learn more at jpmorganchase.com slash impact.
Did you know Fox News has a wine shop? Did you also know you can get ahead start on your Christmas shopping? That's right. Check one more gift off your list with the Fox News Wine Shop Advent Calendar, featuring 12 festive wines inspired by the holiday magic of Fox Square. You can reserve yours for just a $19.99 deposit.
We'll deliver it free right to your doorstep in time for the holiday season. Quantities are limited, so visit FoxNewsWineshop.com today. You know what's crazy is a factor in? How many times she did reach out? She actually called the suicide hotline.
She was talking to her mother-in-law. She was actually saying all these things. I don't know about the hearing voices thing. They say that came in later. Right.
But not that that matters. Is that a make or break?
So it's not someone who just said, I got up one day and I just killed my kids. I was telling you I was suffering with this. The other thing I heard last night, of course, on CNN, is America's terrible at understanding postpartum depression.
So I didn't know as a nation, we were also not doing that. I know we had the American Indian issue. We could debate that. I didn't know we were also bad at postpartum depression understanding.
Well, I do think that people across the spectrum feel like the system failed her. In some way, the system failed her, whether it was over-medication, whether it was not following up on suicide, whether it was saying, Hey, listen, let's not have you be with the kids alone for a period of time until we help you and get you straightened out. And she's a nurse and her mother-in-law, also a nurse.
So it just seems like there's so many places that broke down where she was reaching for help and it could have been handled differently. But at the end of the day, she took these actions, and the jury will have to decide if they're. Criminally? I'm sure you recognize their voices, Shannon Bream and Trey Gowdy here if you're not watching the stream on YouTube and everything else. But Trey's got his book out, The Sound of Regret.
Certain to be in number one again. Is it number one right now? You don't know yet. I don't look at numbers. I'm too sensitive.
I don't look at numbers. Really? What do you mean by that? I don't even look at ratings. If you tell me the show's doing okay, I trust you, but I don't look at them.
Because you take it personal if they're not great? Because your ratings are great. I want you to tell me how to get better.
So I don't I don't i i if they're if it's doing well, but I don't think I'm doing my best, then I don't want to take my foot off the gas. I would rather someone say this is how you can be better than you are. Mm-hmm. Right. But in our business, you don't really ask that because he'll tell you.
No, I I don't but I think we all do want feedback. Like if you're really trying to get better, I do too. And trust me, people give us all kinds of unsolicited feedback about our outfits and our weight and our hair. And our delivery and everything else.
So tell me if this happens to you when you ask that question. Do people ever come back and say, you're perfect the way you are? Because that's what I get. Does that ever happen? That's why Trey and I don't ask.
Because we're not going to get the same answer as you. And no one's going to get the way you are. I will tell you. I don't know about you guys with your spouses, but my Sheldon Bream is a truth teller.
So you have to know that we've been married 30 years.
So I only ask him if I want to know the truth. The man is not a good liar, which is a good thing to look for in a spouse. You want them to be terrible liars. But he'll tell me the truth.
So I didn't know that early on. I expected every question of like, does this outfit make me look fat to be like, no, you could never look fat. You know, but not with like, maybe you want to try something else on. Because I'm going to get the truth from Sheldon Breen. But he says you asked, and my goal is to help you be your best and give you the truth.
He doesn't sugarcoat it.
So don't ask Sheldon Breen unless you want to know. He is a wonderful sweetest best, but he will tell the truth. Every outfit makes you look glamorous. The thing I can't get my head around, Brian, is my wife will ask me this shoe or that shoe, and they look identical to me. Yeah, that's true.
I alternate between left and right without even paying attention.
Okay, here's my question for you guys. If your wife asks you about something, do you feel like she's obligated to select the one that you pick? Or is this, I'm just taking in data. Your vote is going to be one of many. Because I will say my hubs gets a little upset if I say this earring or that earring and he picks this and I go with the other one.
He's like, why did you even ask me? Right. I don't take it personal. I'd rather not be asked.
So I get that.
So if they say, you know, which shoe do you like better?
So I'll just say the one of the left. He goes, oh, so you don't like the other? I'm like. I don't know. Yeah, maybe make a decision.
Maybe choose, yeah. But you don't think the wife is locked into your choice if she asks for your input.
So I think I want to answer that question, but I also have a couple more minutes with you. You talked to the President of the United States this week. Yes, sir. We're going to see the whole interview at 9 p.m. Eastern Time right here on Fox News Channel Sunday night.
What's your takeaway? How was he? What surprised you about the interview, before or after? Is the first time I've ever interviewed him? I was the last person in Congress to meet him.
People don't believe that, but he knows it's true. I know it's true. What shocked me is when I got there, he took me on about a one-hour tour of the new construction site with four of his five children. Um we Um I mean, I've been around him a lot. Uh I I have a different kind of show the like Shannon's show is I would say Her questions are more probing than my questions.
I'm on Sunday night. And what I usually tell people is if you've heard a hard question, you misunderstood it.
So there I wanted. Like he's really generous to me off air. I don't know that everybody gets to see that side of him. He also says I'm wrong half the time. And the fact that he would play golf with somebody or be nice to somebody that he thinks is wrong half the time.
So Like his relationship with his parents, I was interested in that. I did not know he'd only played golf with his father one time in his life. I asked him who his dream forsome was. I also asked him if he would run, knowing everything he knows now. Would you do it?
I mean, it's a hard job, Brian. Yeah. I mean, you had a good life. Would you do it again? You've been shot at.
You're going to have security for the rest of your life. You said a guy in the golf course the other day. Yes. Going after him. Yes.
He could not have been uh nicer. To me, I think Lindsay's passing impacted both of us in a way that we could not have foreseen. Yeah, greatest guy. We spend a lot of time talking about Lindsay off camera. Mm.
Sunday at 9 o'clock. I also have Paul Morrow. Y'all know, y'all have both interviewed the president. One question, and it could be 20 minutes later. You can still answer.
Yeah. And, Shannon, who do you have? We're going to have Rob Emmanuel on Sunday, and we're going to talk about education's our main topic, but we're also going to hit with him this DSA and internal civil war. He's saying, listen, quit asking kids about their pronouns if they can't even tell you what a pronoun is. We've got to educate our kids.
And that's how you got him because he's interested in education. Yeah, yeah. We're going to talk to him Sunday about that. Right. Can you imagine a Democrat doesn't love socialism and is willing to call it out?
Not a lot of them. We'll see on Fox News Sunday. And we'll also see it on the channel at what time? 2 p.m. Eastern is your repeat.
Okay. A little bit songy. I love to sing everything. You know that about me. You've known me for decades now.
Right. She loves to sing. Does that do? Trey, congratulations on the book. Guys, go pick this out.
Pick this up. It's called The Sound of Regret. Watch your show Sunday night. Attend Sunday Night in America. And of course, Shannon Bream Show, all over the big night.
Fox News Sunday. Back in a moment. Bye. It's Brian. Kill me.
Yeah. Did you know Fox News has a wine shop? Did you also know you can get ahead start on your Christmas shopping? That's right. Check one more gift off your list with the Fox News Wine Shop Advent Calendar.
Featuring 12 festive wines inspired by the holiday magic of Fox Square. You can reserve yours for just a $19.99 deposit. We'll deliver it free right to your doorstep in time for the holiday season. Quantities are limited, so visit FoxNewsWineshop.com today.
