Five years ago, the U.S. brought leaders from Israel, Morocco, the United Arab Emirates, and Bahrain together to sign the Abraham Accords. I'm Megan Alexander, and this is Middle East Tomorrow. Go to partners.foxnews.com/slash Met. Welcome back, everyone.
This next topic, everybody, I'm telling you right now, everybody in the audience can relate to. There's nobody that's going to say, well, that doesn't apply to me. That won't help my life. And not only that, if you really care about what's going on in the world, the big story, what do we do with Greenland? How do we solve the situation?
The constant back and forth with China and Venezuela and all these other things. My next guests are here to help us about that. Jonathan B. Smith is in studio. Derek Gaunt is via Zoom.
They're co-authors of Fight Less, Win More: How Master Negotiators Influence Hearts, Minds, and Deals. Guys, welcome to both of you. Jonathan, why don't you begin? Where did both of you guys, where'd you get your expertise in this area? Where'd you get this skill?
So I'm the business guy. But I'm the business coach for Chris Voss, who wrote a book called Never Split the Difference. And so I've trained with Chris for the last 10 years, learning the skills and being the practitioner of these negotiation skills.
So and Derek, you along the way realized that you have to have an expertise. How would you frame out what people should start to begin to learn about to pick up your curriculum or your axioms?
Well, the first thing, you got to open your mind. You have to be willing to experiment with something new. Jonathan always talks about staying curious. That is the biggest challenge. for all of us is staying curious.
Stop being so married to our own agenda that we shut down our ability to listen to the other side.
So it's a mindset shift. It's going into every conversation. where something is hanging in the balance. Where you say to yourself, this is not just about me. It's about the other side as well.
What about thinking, what do you want the outcome to be? Should you go into every conversation thinking about the outcome that you want, or are you listening to shape the conversation to get the best you can?
Well, we say never be so sure about what you want that you wouldn't take a better deal.
So we walk into a negotiation looking for what we call black swans. Because there's going to be three to five things you didn't know about when you entered a conversation. And if you listen, you're more likely to get a better deal than you think.
So like, let's say, for example, if to avoid arguing or escalating arguments with a spouse or a friend or a business partner, what would you say, Derek? Is some things we should keep in mind? First of all, you have to understand that if the words I want or I need is in your head. Or in the head of the person with whom you're engaging, you are a threat to them. There's no way around that.
you're a psychological threat to them. And if you are a psychological threat, that means that negative emotions and negative dynamics are present. If negative emotions and negative dynamics are present, what's supposed to be going on in the prefrontal cortex is being impeded. It's not. The brain is just not functioning at its maximum proficiency.
And so they can't, air quotes, hear you. And realistically, what the conventional wisdom is, if I think someone can't hear me, then it's time for me to push harder, talk louder, explain more. And the more you do that, the more you Reinforce those negative emotions and dynamics.
So it's two rams on the side of a mountain banging their heads together. But, Derek, what you're saying is, I do know what I want in a conversation with you. I'm trying to buy that building from you. I do know what I want. Are you saying just don't use those words?
No, no, no, no. What you want and what you need, you're going to put that on the back burner and let's. Flip this script. And let's talk about what is the perspective of the other side. The minute that you can start to articulate.
My perspective is With all that entails, is the minute that you start to reduce your threatening status in my mind. The further you go down that. Rabbit hole, the more threat you reduce, the smarter I get. Your brain works up to 31% more efficiently when you are in a positive state.
So, It's incumbent upon me to put you in a positive state because I eventually make my ask, to your point. Eventually, I'm going to get to what I want. And when I get there, I want you thinking as clearly as possible.
So, Jonathan, you've had 150 high-growth entrepreneurial companies, 1,500-plus sessions to help improve your strategy. You mentioned how long you studied on it. Derek, you had the law enforcement background, hostage negotiations.
So, I look at Capitol Hill today. And they don't compromise on anything. It's how quick they can get to reconciliation. Or we shut down the government. Collectively.
Is it possible to change a mindset on both sides if, in order to get some type of outcome? Because the outcome just seemed to be decided on election day and then we wait until the next election. Yeah, and they just seem to talk be it by each other. And so we talk about Levels of listening. And ideally, the two would be listening to each other for their point of view.
Literally, if they could express to each other what their point of view is and feel heard, they would be more likely to be able to make a deal. Right.
So it's the way you approach the whole thing. It's a hundred percent. It's what we call staying curious. My mantra is staying curious. And then beyond that, We use a technique called tactical empathy.
So, when we say tactical empathy, empathy, by our definition, is about. Them, not about us. Sympathy is about us, empathy is about them. If they could actually express How the other party's feeling, they'd be more likely to get a deal. Do I show empathy, Derek, in order just to get the best deal possible for me?
Hmm.
Now, you're not seeing what you're talking about now is weaponizing empathy, and that's diametrically opposed to what we're talking about. You want sincerity in the empathy. If it's not sincere, it's going to stink. You are going to smell bad to the other side. You cannot hide being disingenuous.
So, can I stop you there? You know, in sales, what do I need? I need to get the sale. What do I need to do to get the sale? It's a negotiation.
You're saying most sales is like, say what you need to say within reason in order to get that sale. That's the goal. What you're saying is, whatever you say has got to be sincere, or else. It's not going to work. I don't want to work with a liar.
I don't think you do. No one does. And if you, and being. Uh selectively uh adherent to the truth. Is going to cause you problems down the road.
It may work out for you in the short term. In the long term, it's going to come back to bite you in the rear. Because if I feel like, You were just pushing your agenda and you took advantage of me, but I said yes anyway. You're setting yourself, you, Brian Kilmeader, setting yourself up for me to revisit the same amount of pain on you that you visited on me through the force of this agreement. Got it.
Jonathan B. Smith is with me. Derek Gaunt, co-authors of Fight Less, Winmore: How Master Negotiators Influence Hearts, Minds, and Deals.
So let's go to you, Jonathan. I'm looking at the situation now in Greenland. where we have the President of the United States says, I want it, Denmark says, it's mine, we don't really do much with it. And we have allies coming in to show that they support Denmark. And they say they have started negotiations, but both sides staked out their side.
Um if I view it a coach both sides, From what you know about this negotiation, What should be the mindset going in? Because nothing was really accomplished in the first round.
So the mindset and mindset is key to negotiation. Mindset is how can I walk in and be open-minded and actually hear what the other party has to say?
So it goes back to our Are you listening to what the other party is saying? And ideally, can you listen in what we call level five, listening for their point of view? What is their world view? Right.
And when you understand that and don't like what they have to say, it's not going to help you achieve your goal, which is to get. Greenland. Um do you get the b does your mindset or is your is your coaching say get the best deal possible?
So our mindset says We don't have to agree with what they have to say. We just have to have them understand we understand their position. They hear us. People are desperate to be heard. If they don't feel heard, they're going to dig in.
They're going to feel like you're a threat. How do you show you're heard? How do you show? Like, would you say something to me and we're in a negotiation or we're in a disagreement? How do I show you that I'm listening?
Yes, so one of the things we might do, which seems counterproductive, we call it an accusations audit. And one of the things with an accusation is audit, we want to take the negative, whatever negative thing is in your head, I want to put it on the table.
So anticipate what you think is negative that I have out. Yes. And I'm going to say it to you. For example, you think we're going to invade you n tomorrow. That's now off the table.
Because I've actually said it and acknowledged it. If they don't agree with me, the urge to correct is irresistible, and they'll say no. That's not what I'm thinking. Otherwise they'll say, that's right. Mm-hmm.
I noticed there's a couple of things going on right now when it comes to what's happening in Gaza, for example. And we've had these intense talks that got us to the point where there's peace.
Now we're trying to get to the next phase. When you have something that's entrenched, Derek, And you know there's a history towards the animus. How do you coach that? Yeah, uh Let's go back to what Jonathan said. When we talk about sequencing this conversation, We're talking about shutting our mouths first.
And and and and I don't want to sound like I'm beating a dead horse, but listening at the deepest level. Why is that important? Because Mm. People all over the globe, we all have. An undying need, an unquenchable thirst to be heard and to be understood.
And most of us are not getting that anywhere. On the globe, we're not getting it personally. And we end up in a fight. And we end up in a fight. And we end up in a fight.
This is how pervasive needing to be heard is. Just look at any comment section on YouTube for any video that's ever been put up.
Somebody is going to say something. off color about the content. And somebody who's a fan of the content is going to respond. And those two will go back and forth to each other ad nauseum. Why?
Because even though they're in a fight, they got somebody who's listening to them. That is a need that we all have, and we would all be better served if we fill that need.
So back to your original question, how do you coach that? First of all, it's a matter of sequencing the conversation. I'm going to start that conversation with a summary. of the relationship From the beginning of time to right now, soup to nuts. Here's what we've gone through.
And I'm gonna punctuate that summary with. a technique that we call labeling. As a result, you feel. Telling them what they feel as a result of the circumstances. And then I'm going to say to them, you have a vision.
I know this to be a fact. You have a vision for what the next one, three to five years is going to look like for, in this case, we're talking about Gaza. One, three, five years in in Gaza. Right.
Yep. Would you be against walking me through that vision? And now I'm going to listen to what's important to Brian Kilmead about Gaza. I'm gonna and I'm gonna be filtering it. Where does it line up with?
What My vision is for the next one, three, five years in guys of where does it diverge? I'm going to put pins in that and I'm going to continue to listen and I'm going to continue to label. I'm going to continue to mirror. I'm going to continue to paraphrase everything that comes out of his mouth, paying particular attention to the things that benefit me. I'm going to hang a label on everything that benefits me because that's going to shore it up.
Right.
Because eventually I'm going to make my ask. And it's going to be harder for them to push back against me when I make my ask if they've already said that they are aligned in these particular areas. All right. Jonathan Smith and Derek Hahn, stay right there. A few more minutes with you guys on the other end.
And it's a topic I think we all can relate to: fight less, win more, how master negotiators influence hearts, minds, and deals. You'll listen to the Brian Killmeat show. Hi, I'm Megan Alexander, and this is Middle East Tomorrow. Five years ago, the U.S. brought leaders from Israel, Morocco, the United Arab Emirates, and Bahrain together to sign the Abraham Accords.
That historic day ignited a cross-border movement of changemakers who are joining forces to reshape the region. Join me as I uncover the stories of the people transforming the Middle East today and tomorrow. Go to partners.foxnews.com/slash Met. Hi, everyone. It's Brian Kilmead here.
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That's promo code BRIAN. Go pick up the brand new book, Fight Less Windmore: How Master Negotiators Influence Hearts, Minds, and Deals in Your Life with Your Kids, with Your Spouse, if you're into foreign affairs with countries, or maybe with somebody in your life that's a Democrat or Republican and you're on the other side. How do you deal with them on everyday things, or maybe even talk politics with them rather than just avoid it? Jonathan B. Smith and Derek Gaunt have made a career of that.
And I'll start with you, Jonathan. You talk about low stakes arguments, low-stakes deals. Tell me about this. Yeah, so we we say you have to do low stage practice. First, because when it's a high-stakes situation, if you haven't done the low-stakes practice, you will not own the skills.
So An example is: I fly into Vegas the other day early. It's like 10 o'clock. I know that I'm not supposed to check in until 3 o'clock. They may or may not have a room for me. I walk up to the desk and I said You know, I'm probably gonna totally ruin your day.
You know, you're probably going to think I'm another entitled person looking for something from you.
So they're like, oh, God, what could he possibly ask? And I go, how hard would it be for me to get a room early? Because I just came in from New York. Oh, no problem. Here.
I have a room.
So, why does that work? What have you found? Why is that effective?
Well I set them up. For something that they in their mind they thought, God, what could he possibly be asking for? Is there a body somewhere that I'm going to have to deal with? And all I'm saying is.
So they think you're going to ask for the world. They think I'm asking for the world. And it's actually a lot less. Yes. So, Derek, how about with your kids?
You uh you're used to Haasa negotiation where life and death's on the line with your kids. I want you to put the iPad down, the iPhone down, uh, the Xbox down. I keep telling you to, but every time I walk in the room, you got all three going. Yeah, how do you deal with this? It's simple or as complex as the Gaza situation.
You have to. demonstrate for your child that you understand what the impact your ask is going to have on them. They may not be happy about it. But they're going to be much more receptive if you take the time. To Help them understand that you get.
This is not something that they want to do. That you get this is impeding their fun time. That you get that kids their age are all over 15 different devices at once. That you get they'd rather do that. as opposed to eat or homework or go outside.
And once you do that. You've given them a chance to sufficiently brace themselves for your ask. And that is the mountaintop of tactical empathy.
So, Derek, as a parent, I'm in control. Maybe everybody else I talk to, I'm equal. I'm equal with that receptionist. I'm equal with that country. But I'm a parent.
So you really got to do what I say.
So, how will you be a parent and do that too, and still keep your credibility? You don't want to be your friend. You don't want to be your son's buddy. Yeah, no, I I get that. You've got the power, you've got the authority, you've got the leverage.
Why do you have to wield it? They know that. This is no different. What you're talking about, Brian, is no different than hostage taking that we dealt with. I had All of the resources available to me to negatively impact his environment anytime I wanted to.
I was the authority. I was in charge. But I never carried myself like that. My ultimate goal and objective was to have him put the gun down. Release the hostages and then ultimately submit to authority.
Something, by the way, that every one of them say they're not going to do. And I I I get them to that point. Because I didn't push my agenda. I never called inside that crisis site and said to them, hey, Brian, kill me. It's Derek Gaunt with the police department.
I want you to put the gun down and come out. I never started a phone call like that. Why? Because he's not ready to hear it. Could I have?
Could I introduce gas into that building and rock his world? Yeah, of course I could. But I never carried myself like that. So you could have the authority and the leverage over the other side. But Right.
How great is that when you put your wants and needs on the back seat and you focus on them first? Guys, fascinating stuff. I need another five hours. But until then, pick up the book: Fight Less, Win More: How Master Negotiators Influence Hearts, Minds, and Deals. Derek Gaunt, Jonathan B.
Smith, thanks so much, guys. Continue to succeed. Thanks, Brian. All right. You'll see the Brian Kill Me Show.
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