This show proudly sponsored by Real American Freestyle Wrestling. We have never talked about the need to seize any territories. Neither Crimea nor Donbas nor Novorossiya as territories have ever been our goal. Our goal was to protect Russian people who lived on these lands for centuries, discovered these lands and shed blood for them. If I could quote, I believe Some type of Adam Sandler movie.
We're all dumber having heard that. Can you imagine this? Russia saying that our goal has never been to control Ukrainian land. That's all they've been doing is try to control the entire country. And they're not there to save Russian people.
I don't know who he's talking to, but Sergei Lavrov continues to talk, and he's not making the peace process any easier. Joining us now is Jen Easterly, former United States Director of Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, retired army officer with two bronze stars. Jen, welcome back. Great to be here. Welcome, I should say.
Yeah, great to be here. First off, as we look at this conflict right now, as we're trying to bring it to an end, When you were trying to analyze What the Russian motives is. How much do you listen to the Foreign Secretary who's been there for decades? Yeah.
So. In my in what I've been doing was very focused on Russia as a cyber threat.
So as the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, we looked hard at what Russia was doing in terms of its cyber capabilities, specifically in Ukraine and then against our own networks, federal networks. You remember SolarWinds, you remember some of the attacks around federal networks. But I was in Kyiv last year working with Ukrainian cyber defenders and those who are trying to shore up their critical infrastructure. And quite frankly, you could see the brutality and the vicious attacks, both kinetic and non-kinetic.
So in terms of who to trust in the Russian government to include their foreign secretary, I'm not sure I would put any trust in them. How capable are they in the cyber world? How capable are they? Very capable. You know, I put China at the top.
China is really the pacing threat. But Russia has shown a real capability, particularly to go after Ukraine infrastructure and a capability. To go after our own infrastructure. The other thing, Brian, is Russia is a safe haven for a lot of these criminal groups, right? These gangs that hang out in Eastern Europe.
And that's big business. It's a multi-trillion dollar business, $10.5 trillion in cybercrime damages. If cybercrime was a country, it would be behind GDP in the U.S. and China. And a lot of that is devastating U.S.
businesses, large and small, these ransomware attacks, hospitals, schools.
So we got to look at Russia as giving a safe haven to these gangs, but also in terms of their capability to come after us and after Ukraine.
So, what about North Korea? Yeah, very serious threat as well. North Korea, and this is underreported, but really fascinating. What they've been doing is putting Fake IT workers and getting them hired into Fortune 500 companies using stolen identities. And they're collecting money and then shuttling it back to Pyongyang.
Actually, FBI just rolled up a server farm that basically was helping to support these North Korean IT workers. It's been a really big deal.
So great on the FBI, but we need to do more of these actions to impose costs, including sanctions.
So the one thing that people talk about is: well, the Russians never attacked a NATO nation, but they have through cyber attacks. Oh, absolutely. All over the Baltics. Absolutely. Didn't they just try to punish Estonia for moving a statue with a cyber attack?
Yeah, that was big in 2007, and they've done a lot since then.
So there's a bunch of reasons to be concerned about Russia. I mean, as you said yourself, this is bigger than Ukraine. This is about pushing back on authoritarian aggression. This is about supporting democracy. But really, all of this is connected at the end of the day.
The defense of Ukraine against Russia is really the The deterrence of China against Taiwan.
So there's a lot of signaling going on here. And that's why it's so important that the president get this deal. And I was very encouraged by what I saw in the beginning of the week with a meeting with President Zelensky and the rest of the European leaders. Look, America is best when it's showing leadership and strength, and that matters. And history shows that with a strong America and strong allies, we will be safer and more secure.
Well, NATO's got the message. They no longer can sit there and say and think that Russia is not a threat. They have the message. And adding those two countries has been great. They lost Syria because of it.
Now we have 5% of GDP. We hope, in theory, at least 2% or 3% are going to go to these NATO nations.
So in that way, Russia has failed. Because they alerted their enemies the subtle way they took portions of Georgia and kept it, they took Crimea and kept it, parts of the Donbass and kept it.
Now the invasion has alerted everyone.
So it's no longer Trump sitting there saying, let's get rid of Nordstrom 2, and them saying, why? Why do that? It's good to have relations with Russia.
Now everybody knows we can't do that. Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's going to be a tough road ahead. I mean, this is a hard deal to get a trilateral, to get a ceasefire. You saw the vicious attacks overnight, a lot of civilian casualties. I think they went after a U.S.-Singaporean business in the West. Look, at the end of the day, this is going to be tough negotiations, but it's important to have that united front with the president, with European leaders, and with President Zelensky.
Jen, what do you think the Russian economy is like right now? I don't think it's pretty good. How vulnerable? Yeah.
I mean, we hear the double-digit inflation. We hear the value of the ruble. We understand trade is next to zero. Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I think they are vulnerable. I think the sanctions hurt. I think we need to continue to use economic leverage against them to make sure that we can find an end to this war. And so that is a pressure point that's important, keeping them isolated economically. But talking with them to get to a point where we can actually come to an agreement.
In the 2022 bombing of the Nordstrom 2 pipeline, I loved it personally. I don't think we should have, Merkel should have ever cut the deal with the former Chancellor of Germany, has friends with Vladimir Putin. They cut this deal, they bypass Ukraine and have natural gas flowing right to, it's like a crackpipe, right to Germany.
So the president said, get rid of Nordstrom 2. And they said, no. What about Nordstrom 1? No, we're leaving that.
Well, then it blew up.
So I think that worked to the West's advantage. But who are we finding out was behind that? Yeah, it I don't know the answer to that. I think all of your questions kind of go back to the point that, look, Russia is an authoritarian nation. They are the aggressor.
That's why we need to work with our allies, work with our partners to get to a deal to help Ukraine actually retain territorial integrity and to protect its people and its civilians. This war needs to end. Um true. By the way, they just said a Ukrainian man has been arrested in Italy suspicion of doing that. I would give him a medal personally, but that's uh that's me.
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So for you personally, you've been through a lot lately. You're at West Point, you're teaching a class, you've got this key position. And because, in my view, I'm sure you're not going to confirm it, Laura Loomer, who's got way I don't know why she has any influence decides that you're too much of a Joe Biden person to have this key position. What was the position, and how did you find out that you were no longer there? Yeah, so just first off, unfortunate.
I think it was a hastily made decision based on inaccurate information. You know, for me, it's not like how many times you get knocked down, it's how many times you get back up. You got to be resilient, and that's a message to the cadets. But this was the distinguished chair of the Department of Social Sciences at West Point. It was not a federal government position, it was an endowed fellowship to teach a national security seminar and to work with cadets.
Look, you know, his background: I spent 25 years in uniform, retired lieutenant colonel. I went to West Point for four years, two and a half years. I taught economics there. Look, West Point's a special place. You wrote about this with the Culper Spy Ring, right?
West Point strategically critical for its geography, but strategically critical for training and inspiring and educating the next generation of warfighters, to include cyber warriors, to be leaders of character focused on duty, honor, and country. And that's what I spent my entire career doing in a nonpartisan, non-political way: combat tours, battalion commander. And to be clear, I have never criticized the president or any commander-in-chief, right? The president. As an American, we want the president to be successful.
His success is America's success. And all I've ever wanted to do is be a patriot, not a partisan.
So at the end of the day, I think this was an unfortunate decision that was made based on inaccurate information. But I will find other ways to lead and mentor. I mean, the private contracts that you can make with your unique expertise in an area in which we can't get enough expertise in, that's cybersecurity, is going to be great for you personally in your career, but it's probably bad for the country that you're not in this spot. And especially when you didn't have a chance to plead your case. How did you find out you were no longer there?
Yeah, I was called by the superintendent who was directed, I believe, by the Secretary of the Army, and it was a legal order, obviously.
So, you know, and I don't know Secretary Driscoll. I've actually heard very positive things about him, but I don't know him. But your point is a really good one because we're in such a unique moment in history. When I was a cadet, I saw the fall of the Berlin Wall when I was in. Instructor, there.
It was the fall of the Twin Towers.
Now we're at this incredible moment in history, right? And the class that I was going to teach was called Warrior X. It was all about how young leaders deal with this era of technological innovation and disruption, right? Autonomy, cyber, drones, powerful AI. And if you saw the AI action plan that the White House released, which I thought was really good, it talks specifically about defense leaders being able to leverage AI to fight and win the nation's wars.
And the great irony is, I was going to ask Secretary Driscoll and other leaders of the current administration to come in as guest lecturers because the cadets need to understand how our political leaders, how our policy leaders are grappling with these issues.
So look, at the end of the day, unfortunate, didn't get to plead the case. I understand that these decisions get made, but. I'll figure out a way to move forward. Just correct the record, Laura Loomer, who I've never met, but I find it really disconcerting that she has any influence with the President. She's just a lightly regarded pundit.
She says that you were part of the disinformation committee that never got off the ground with Nina Jankowicz, who famously sang that song. Were you part of that under Joe Biden? I had nothing to do with Nina Jankowicz. I've never met Nina Jankowicz. I've never worked with Nina Jankowicz.
I had nothing to do with the Disinformation Governance Board. Look, this comes from, I was the director of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency, right? This was the agency that in 2020 declared the contentious presidential election that it was a secure election. I didn't join CISA until 2021. Our job was to work with secretaries of state.
All across the country. In fact, I had fantastic relationships with Republican secretaries of state to make sure they had what they needed to defend their election infrastructure. And Brian, I was very proud to be the person that certified the 2024 presidential election as safe and secure and free and fair.
So at the end of the day, there was no, the accusations are around censorship. CISA never censored anything at any time. And to be honest, somebody wore the uniform and fought in combat, as did Secretary Hegseth, as did Secretary Driscoll, as did the Vice President. I've always said, I may disagree with what you're saying, but I will fight for your right to say it. Yeah.
So I just think you got a raw deal. A country would have been better off if you were there. And especially when you find out that somebody doesn't know you and you didn't have a chance to plead your case and explain your background. A lot of times the president goes back and corrects things. Hopefully, Colonel, he'll correct this.
Can I tap into your expertise for a second? Matt, please. On AI. Yeah.
I was seeing this story last week that a group of American engineers went over to China and they were blown away. And they said we might have lost. This AI race already on energy. They have built up their energy to provide for AI, the AI energy that's necessary, and we're in the process of doing that. How real is the threat of not having the energy to push AI forward at the pace necessary?
Yeah, so the energy piece of this is incredibly important. But if I can just step back on the China piece first, because I think it's important to see the big picture, because China, from a threat perspective, in particular right now, what they're doing is something the American people have to be aware of. We have seen China going after our telecommunication systems to spy and to steal our data. But the most serious threat that I've seen in my time as a cyber and intelligence person is China attempting actually hackers from the People's Liberation Army hacking into our most sensitive critical infrastructure. I'm talking water, power, transportation, communication, and not to spy, not to steal our data, but to be able to launch disruptive attacks in the event of a crisis in the Taiwan Strait.
So we're talking mass disruption, everything. You're nestled in there right now. Absolutely. We found them. We eradicated them.
But we thought what we found was the tip of the iceberg. And so China is actively holding our critical infrastructure at risk so that they can incite societal panic and deter our ability to marshal military might and citizen will.
So we need, that is a right now problem. And frankly, it's why I welcome the fact that the administration has talked about being more aggressive in offensive cyber capabilities. I stood up the Army's first cyber battalion. I helped stand up U.S. Cyber Command.
We have vast offensive cyber capabilities, and we do need to use them more effectively to be able to hold our adversaries at risk and to be able to impose costs.
So I think it's just important to set the scene in terms of China as a cyber power. Why was Michael Waltz using the Signal app? Because our communication's been compromised, correct? Yeah, look, we actually, when I was the director of CISA, because of the major compromise against our telecommunications, We gave recommendations to use Signal.
Now, obviously, you know, to be judicious about what information went on there, but that was part of our guidance, right? Because you had to be concerned about these intrusions into our telecommunications.
So that is a very serious issue.
Now, on the AI side, you know, I do worry a lot about threats. Every bit of new technology, it's like the old saying goes, you invent the plane, you invent the plane crash, you invent the ship, you invent the shipwreck. But that's why American leadership is so important. And this goes back to the AI action plan, right? Pro-innovation, pro-competitive globally with our adversaries like China, but also it talked about cybersecurity, critical infrastructure security, secure by design systems, dealing with the chembio threat.
So I think if we actually implement that plan, we can stay ahead of our adversaries. We can tap into this power. We can make use of the energy so that we can stay ahead of China, but also we can mitigate those risks. Wow. Lieutenant Colonel Easterly, hopefully this is just one of many appearances, especially on the network.
Thanks for everything you've done. And hopefully the administration will be smart enough to bring you back, if you're willing. Lieutenant General, Lieutenant Colonel Jen Easterly, thank you very much. Thanks so much, Brian. Great to be with you.
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