James Kimmel, Jr.: The Science of Revenge

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Terms apply. Welcome back, everyone. With me in studio is James Kimmel Jr., author of a new book, The Science of Revenge: Understanding the World's Deadliest Addiction and How to Overcome It. James, welcome. Thank you, Brian.

It's really a pleasure to be here. You know, revenge, people can think about their own lives. They can think about big stories, big movies. Revenge is always a part of it. And what made you think this is a perfect subject of a book?

What intrigued you about it?

Well, what really intrigued me about it started with my own life, my own experience of revenge seeking primarily as a litigator, a civil litigator, where I was being hired, right, by my clients to Get revenge on their behalf legally against somebody who wronged them in their lives. Civil suits. Yeah, civil suits, right. And I had actually begun as a prosecutor, so criminal as well. Moved into civil.

And as I did that, the more and more I started to feel these, what you get with revenge is this amazing flash of pleasure when you get a win. And that is extremely pleasurable. You want it more and more and more for some people, not everyone. And I began to wonder: am I becoming addicted to this? Because I was really getting kind of off on these wins, and my clients were and were willing to pay me enormous amounts of money, like addicts, to just get these wins over and over and over again for them.

And that moved me more towards academics to find out what's happening inside your brain when you've got a grievance, you feel like you've been wronged, and you start to develop this craving. And what we see neurologically now inside the brain is that it activates the addiction and reward circuitry of information. Inside your brain, the same circuitry that's active for drug addiction, alcohol, and gambling. Why doesn't it last? I'm sorry?

Why doesn't it last? Oh, it doesn't last for the same reason that it doesn't for drugs.

So you get this dopamine high, it floats away rather quickly. Same way with narcotics. And so it's this temporary fix, but it leaves you craving. And that's kind of the goal with all addictions, right? You get this high, it feels great, you want another one and another one.

And the brain doesn't sustain it, it can't sustain dopamine presence for very long inside the brain. It's too intense.

So the brain starts to flush it out, but it leaves behind this lasting effect of, I want this again. Can we see this in public? Can we see it in sports? You certainly see it in sports, you see it with fans, you see it with athletes. And some percentage, and it's just like with other addictions, only maybe we don't know for sure with revenge addiction, but we know that with substance use addiction, only about 20% of people who try alcohol or narcotics actually become addicted to it.

And so it looks like about that percentage, same percentage of people, maybe become addicted to revenge. And I would sort of, we could kind of picture that as the people who are in jail, right? Because this is the, what we know from FBI and Secret Service and public health data from the CDC and behavioral studies around the world is that revenge seeking is the Primary motivation for all forms of intentionally inflicted human suffering and violence. And that goes from bullying on playgrounds, all the way up through intimate partner violence, street and gang violence, violent extremism, all the way up through genocide, terrorism, and war. Is it ever satisfying in reality?

It might be perceived satisfying. You got him or her back. But is it really satisfying? No, it never is because it comes with these negative consequences, and that's really the definition of addiction. The definition of addiction is the inability to resist a desire for something powerful despite knowing the negative consequences.

So you know the negative consequences of retaliating against somebody in a certain situation. You do it anyway because you can't control it. That's compulsive revenge seeking. That's what addiction looks like.

So I want you to hear a certain president bait another future president. And tell me if this fits your book. No one is happier. No one is prouder. To put this birth certificate matter to rest, Van McDonald.

And that's because he can finally get back to focusing. on the issues that matter. Like Did we fake the moon landing? What really happened in Roswell? And where are Biggie and Tupac?

All kidding aside, obviously we all know about your credentials and breadth of experience. Um So That humiliation. At that Washington correspondence dinner, Trump will never say I had anything to do with it. He just shakes it off. I've asked him directly on camera, off camera.

But what do you really think really was going on there? That's exactly what's going on in America today on both sides. The humiliation, the endless shaming of the other, whoever the other is for you, that is intensely gratifying for you. We love, we get. Major dopamine hits from owning the libs, and we own and get major hits from owning the conservatives.

That is part of our brain biology. Can't deny it. We need to move away from it as quickly as possible. It's destructive. It is huge.

So, is that really the theme, too? You might do this, you understand it, I define it, but it's still destructive. Hugely destructive. And if we want to go, you know, MAGA make America great again, we need to start with a make America forgiving again. Because I also have, and I talk about in the book extensively, there is huge, new, amazing neuroscience about the neurology of forgiveness.

And forgiveness undoes. All of this stuff.

So where you have a grievance that is some sense of humiliation or shame and that stimulates your revenge desire, forgiveness, instead of just covering up with a little bit of dopamine the way a revenge hit does, it actually shuts down the pain network in your brain so you don't experience it again. It shuts down the reward and pleasure circuitry of addiction so you're no longer craving revenge. And then it reactivates the prefrontal cortex. That's the area of your mind for self-control, executive function, decision making. Forgiveness is like a wonder drug that works amazing wonders and we just don't use it enough.

We think it's weak when it's strength. It is huge self-healing strength. You have victim statements in courts.

So I just saw two days ago this victim's daughter. She was jogging at Randall's Island, and she gets beaten by a convicted rapist, never should have been out. And she gets beaten to the point of death. I don't think she's much out of a coma now. But so, after his conviction, the daughter gets up and speaks.

Would you think it's counterproductive? I understand why the daughter wants him to see her. But do you think for her what's best for her would be to forgive him? Oh, absolutely. If she wants to have a problem.

That's the hardest thing ever. It is. And we have the neuroscience that would show that is the only way she'll heal from the pain. There is no other alternative. We are all hardwired to forgive just as much as we are all hardwired to seek revenge.

It's there. The ancient teachings of Jesus and the Buddha and other people who have talked about forgiveness as not only some sort of a pious way to get into heaven, but it is also a living in the moment way of healing from the wrongs of the past and not hurting yourself further. And you're kind of freeing that person from playing a role in your mind and the rest of your life. That's correct. Real American Freestyle is the first ever unscripted pro-wrestling league created by Hulk Hogan, Chad Bronstein, Israel Martinez, and Eric Bischoff to give elite wrestlers a real shot at professional career.

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You've never seen wrestling like this. Learn more at realamericanfreestyle.com. Hi everyone, I'm Brian Kilmead. If you want something fun and easy to search for homes and apartments, then you should be using the Redfin app. Whether I'm searching for my next place, if I want to buy, if I want to rent, or if I just want to scroll through and see some dream homes, like for example, something on the beach or at least a walk to the beach, a big house, second, maybe a third floor, I use the Redfin app.

Redfin makes it fun to search all the homes for sale and apartments for rent in your neighborhood. You can filter for price, for beds, for baths, square footage, and so much more.

So if you find a place you love, Redfin makes it easy to go see it in person. Just schedule a tour right from the app. Plus, if you're looking to sell, Redfin agents know how to get you the best price possible for your home. That's because they close twice as many. Deals as other agents.

And with a listing fee as low as 1%, Redfin's fees are half of what others often charge, which means you'll have more money to put towards your next home.

So whether you're looking to buy, you're looking to rent, you're looking to sell, Redfin's got you covered. Download the Redfin app to get started. This is not an example of it, it's an example of negative behavior. Trump wins an election, no one can accept it, and there becomes a mission among Democrats to diminish the victory and undo it. Here's Adam Schiff.

There's just ample evidence of collusion of the campaign, and it's very much in the public record. Have you seen, do you have direct evidence of collusion with Russia?

Well, I think there is direct evidence. And there is significant evidence of collusion, and we've set that out time and time again. It never happened, didn't exist. An investigation revealed nothing, but there was no hell to pay for that. But Trump keeps in the back of his mind, never says it, but he clearly.

Knows exactly who was out to get him, who tried to put him in jail after he got out. That's right. That's right. Trump got elected on the vision. He said, at least, back at CPAC, I am your retribution.

I mean, he was willing to say, I will become for a large group of people in this country, the drug that you want. I know you want retribution. I want retribution. I'll do it. But that is the same thing that is also happening on the liberal side.

Nobody is forgiving anything, and that is a disaster. But isn't there a line between street smart? For example, I don't want to be a victim, so I got to learn. You're out to get me. How many times are you going to stab me in the back in the front before I go, wait a second?

I got to get myself some Kevlar and I got to start avoiding those blocks.

So to do that, a lot of times, it's an offense. And I'll give you an example. People think he's getting revenge on those law firms. He's neutralizing them because those law firms will weaponize against him and his family.

So even though it's unethical, you guys live in that world, perhaps unethical against the bar to go after law firms and make them basically pay in extortion. But what he's doing is clearing the field to make sure for the next four years at least you do not take shots and try to destroy him. Yeah, and we all assume. Humans, though, we need to think about what is revenge versus what is self-defense. My book doesn't talk about self-defense.

Self-defense, that's the fight-or-flight instinct. We all have it and we all need it. That's forward-looking against a present or near-term future threat. That's versus revenge-seeking, which is always punishing people for something that happened in the past, no longer exists. It doesn't exist in this real world, it only exists inside your head.

You've got to heal that and clear that out.

So, it's a very slippery slope between punishing a law firm, right, for what they did in the past versus, as you say, clearing the field going forward, right? Where does that line hit? I mean, is he really stopping them? Have they even threatened at all to start coming after him again? No, it's true, but the law of the jungle is: okay, I know what you're gonna do.

You gotta weaponize yourselves again. But you know what's interesting? One of the things he said. is I want you to take a few gra what do they call pro bono cases on causes that whether it's transgender or some causes dear to the conservative's heart.

So that's almost like a positive I need your expertise to help out other people that can't afford you for causes that are conservative. It is a less that is less negative consequences than shutting down the law firm, right? I mean that he didn't do that, right? He didn't try to say you're all out of business and I'm making it so. But he has that threat behind it.

So there's a lot of revenge and retaliation, you have to admit, going after the law firms is really about His grievance of feeling like every law firm in the nation had gone after him for the last four to eight years. And now it's time for a little bit of payback. That's really what is the root of that. You sit there at the defense table and you see, then you wait, and you say, one day, one day. And that day came with a victory.

If his win is a victory, that's a retribution. I'm going to show you. I'm going to win. I'm going to get back in power, do the things I was supposed to be doing the last four years. But when you get in there, you got to make sure you look forward.

And I think for the most part, he is. That's my opinion. One person who didn't and ran on it was Letitia James, the Attorney General in New York. Listen to her trying to get elected and re-elected. I will never be afraid to challenge this illegitimate president.

When our fundamental rights are at stake, I believe that the President of these United States can be indicted for criminal offenses. Will you sue him for us? Oh, we're gonna definitely assume we're gonna be a real painter with that man in the White House. Who can't go a day uh Without threatening our fundamental rights. Yes, we need to focus on Donald Trump and his abuses.

That's what she ran on. Elect me because I'm going to go after him. That is correct. That's as true as him saying, I am your retribution, right? Both sides are now going after each other, and it's all about the gratification.

You can see with Donald Trump, at least I can see it. I don't know how you feel, but it looks to me like he enjoys getting the libs. He feels good. I think the libs feel good. And when the libs are finally getting after the conservatives, there's a lot of gratification going on there.

There is never, though. There is never anybody that goes, you know what? I forgive this. We're moving on. I'm going to forgive this.

The country needs forgiveness. Make America forgiving again is what needs to improve. He always has those attributes, his W, George W. Bush. He really does.

He's overrated him in Clintons or Friends. The father lost to Bill Clinton. They end up being best friends. It's a great example, isn't it? It really is.

And the other thing would be: I think it started with the impeachment. Yeah. Was Bill Clinton's behavior terrible? Absolutely. It's been confirmed.

But the fact that they went over the top and it got so personal and so graphic, they'd be like, okay, I'm going to win and I'm going to get you back. Oh, yeah, I'm going to get you back. And then it went with the election mess and Gore Bush. I'm going to get you. I don't think you really won.

I won the popular vote. I'm going to get you back. And that started this cycle along with the unpredictable winner. And these shames, shame, humiliation, betrayal, those three are some of the most powerful... painful experiences humans can have.

It activates the pain circuitry in the brain. You can see it happening. And that triggers this desire to retaliate. They can go from fantasy to violence. Here's my last point.

And this doesn't really mean revenge. But motivation. Let's say a couple of people walked up to you in 11th, 12th grade, and go, whatever you do, you're not. I know you want to be a lawyer, but you're not that smart. You're never going to be successful.

And you go okay, I'll show you. And then you use that feeling. I'm going to show you, and you use that as motivation. And they get you to law school, and you have this successful practice doing well.

Now you're an author, too.

So. Didn't it motivate you in a positive way? In a positive way. And I didn't use it for negative consequences. I used it to better my life.

I didn't attack and harm other people. But use it as motivation. That's a negative thing. It's a great way to use that. That desire for revenge to motivate yourself.

It's a fantastic way. And actually, I have that exact experience. I was bullied on a farm as a kid. The bullies came one night, shot and killed our dog. They came back two weeks later, blew up our mailbox.

I went after them with a gun, confronted them by cornering them at a barn. And then put the gun down and walked away, thank God, or I wouldn't be here today.

So I know exactly what this is. Is this an episode of Yellowstone? When did you grow up? In the 19th century? What's happening?

Where were you? Central PA. I was in Central PA, and we were hunters. There were guns, and this thing came out at me.

So this got you, this was an intriguing emotion that you wanted to get through. And I cover this in the book. I mean, it's a really, that's my sort of foundational John Wick story, right? I'm kind of, I had to, it was a beagle. I mean, it was just like John Wick.

It's unbelievable. Wow. Pretty amazing.

So, and by the way, when you get there and you prove that person, they don't even remember that they said it to you. Right. But you use his motivation so in the ends justify the means.

Well, I used it to start to get, so I thought, I'll go legalize revenge. I'll go into the professional revenge-seeking business by becoming a lawyer where I can get it legally. And lawyers have the only license, right, to manufacture, distribute, prescribe revenge for the entire population. And that's how we make our money. And it is a lot of money and it's.

A lot of damage.

So there's a lot to think about. It all worked out because it motivates you to great success. And then you write a book about how to solve it. How to solve it, right? It's a win-win story.

James Kimball Jr., congratulations on the science of revenge, understanding the world's deadliest addiction, and how to overcome it. Thanks, James. Thank you, Brian. Right. This is Jason Chaffetz from the Jason and the House podcast.

Join me every Monday to dive deeper into the latest political headlines and chat with remarkable guests. Listen and follow now at FoxnewsPodcast.com or wherever you download podcasts.