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I think anyone, white South Africans are fleeing because of the violence and racist laws. And this is all, I mean, I'll give these to you. So when you, when you say, what would I like to do? I don't know what to do. Look at this.
White South African couples say that they were attacked violently. Hi everyone. Welcome back. That is the president of the United States with a pretty important meeting with the South African president last week, at which time what Donald Trump does is has real conversations, whether it's Zelensky, whether it's with Schumer and Speaker Pelosi in his first term. When you come in with cameras, he does not need note cards. He has something he wants to say. He wants to listen.
He will respond. But what about the truth? Some people think that he'd save South Africa by exposing, making them defend themselves about what his life is like right now. If you are a white person in South Africa, apartheid is evil.
Got it. When, when Mandela moved South Africa forward, we thought we'd turn the page on that. I cannot give you the definitive history of South Africa government, but it looks pretty hellacious and they seem to love their BRICS union. They love the Chinese, the Brazilians and the Russians. Don't really seem too interested in relations with us, even though they're going to be hosting, I believe, the G20. Joining us now is Tony Leone. He's a former leader of the opposition of the Republic of South Africa, and he wrote a great column on Fox.com about Trump's criticism. Tony, first off, I'd be the first to tell you, I'm not an expert in South Africa.
I've been hearing about these horrific stories. Was Donald Trump right in your mind to do what he did and challenge the president in the Oval Office? Well, certainly by the standards of, good afternoon, Brian, of normal diplomacy, it was very extraordinary. I actually was thinking that President Ramaphosa had been to the Oval Office before, and that was in 2022 in September, with Joe Biden, and no one took any notice. Well, the whole world took notice of the Trump-Ramaphosa showdown or show last Wednesday.
So whether he was right or wrong, it's very unusual. And I think a deep sigh of relief was felt in South Africa by many people that we only got to sort of half Zelensky. I mean, in the sense that there was this public dressing down, but they did continue to lunch afterwards, and apparently it was all more amiable at the lunch than it had been in the Oval Office.
I wasn't there, of course, so I'm just relying on what people told me who were. I think the point is, Brian, that what President Trump said was, well, there's basically huge attacks on whites in South Africa. There is a huge crime problem in South Africa, and if you actually looked at the responses of the South African president, of the minister of agriculture, of Johan Rupert, who's a golfing friend of President Trump and also a billionaire, dollar billionaire, they were all saying, well, yes, it's not directed just at whites, it's across the whole of the country.
And that is the essence of the problem. So I don't think there's what's been called a white, or clearly, if it's a white genocide, it's been a failure since I'm speaking to you in relatively peaceful and prosperous circumstances from Cape Town in South Africa. And look, the majority of white people in South Africa still live pretty good middle class lives, but the scourge of crime is there, and an enormous amount of redress, you in America would call it DEI, in South Africa it's called Black Economic Empowerment or Employment Equity. And that certainly has been at the cost of some life chances and job opportunities for white people, and the reason given by the South African government is, well, we've got to undo 350 years of racial discrimination, which was directed by whites against blacks, so it's a kind of reversal of targets and roles. Okay, let me ask you this, is it a reversal of targets for opportunities to buy a farm, or a reversal of targets where you have a farm, and because there was apartheid, I want that farm and I'm black, do I get that farm? You don't get that farm, there's a very long winded process, look the bureaucracy in South Africa is so terribly slow and often inefficient that you can make a claim if you were a black family or your predecessors were dispossessed under an apartheid law to get some kind of compensation. But I have to say, although I am completely against this latest expropriation act of the South African government and parliament, which incidentally was one of the reasons for President Trump's executive order against South Africa on the 7th of February, that there are no white farms that I'm aware of, that there's been an arbitrary confiscation without recourse to law.
So there's quite a lot of legislation, but it hasn't always been enacted, and even where it has been enacted, people here in South Africa still have redress to judicial processes in the event of a dispossession. You're in Cape Town, do you feel safe? Look Brian, I feel pretty safe, but I've got private security arrangements, every South African middle class person probably has access to ADT or pays for a service, we've got a guard house at the end of our road with private security people, and people live increasingly in gated communities. The truth is, since 1994 when the ANC came to power, more than 650,000 South Africans have been murdered. I have to say, it's a horrific sum, that most of the victims are not whites but black, obviously blacks are a much higher percentage of the population. So I don't think there's exemplary attention given by criminals to whites because they're white, I think there is, as indeed the South African government representatives who were with President Trump in the Oval Office last Wednesday made clear, there is a scourge of crime, which the government has very ineffectively addressed, if it's addressed at all. And ironically, although there's a big debate back home where I'm speaking to you from now, about the methodologies of President Trump last Wednesday, it suddenly highlighted a problem here and forced the government into saying they're going to take remedial and radical action. So maybe one of the unintended consequences when President Trump said, I don't know, was that he actually was forcing attention on a big problem in South Africa. Well, I'm going to play it, but I just want you to tell everyone what that means first.
Could you tell? Well, kill the boa means kill the farmer. Now, a former president of South Africa said, oh, it's just a chant, it means nothing, but I can guarantee you one thing, that not only has this now been regarded as protected free speech in South Africa, if any white group in South Africa made a similar chant against the black population, there would be huge and consequential actions. So it's not that, you know, in the sense of these incendiary comments and rhetoric and songs, that there's equal treatment.
There isn't. Yeah. So I want you to hear with Donald Trump. Just picture the Oval Office and he asked you to turn the lights down and listen to this leader.
You probably know him. I don't. Cut 35. Excuse me. Turn the lights down.
Turn the lights down and just put this on. It's right behind you. Killing is part of the revolution. Kill the boa, kill the boa, kill the boa.
And everyone goes crazy. So it well, that's the opposition leader. But it's not your party, right?
Well, he. No, it's certainly not. Look, you know, it is an absolutely appalling rhetoric. It has no place or should have no standing in a democratic country like South Africa, which tells you where I think some of the problems are. I need to say that party under that demagogic leader, who really is a black fascist, actually, Julius Malema, that they only got nine percent in the last election. Now, my party or party I lead, which is completely the opposite, it's market friendly, it's non-racial, it's it's inclusive, got 22 percent of the votes in the last election.
If you any. So you have a lot of radical politicians mouthing some pretty appalling rhetoric. But if you actually look at what the people of South Africa say, they are much more moderate and much more conservative than that kind of song, which doesn't suggest that this thing should be allowed, but it is allowed in South Africa.
But it is hardly representative of mainstream opinion here. Seizure, a brain condition called press, allergic reactions, heart disease that can lead to death, falls and bone fractures, swallowing problems or choking that can lead to death. Stop Xtandi and get medical help at once if your face, tongue, lip or throat starts swelling.
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Talk to your doctor and visit Xtandi.com. Go to selectquote.com slash Spotify pod today to get started. Good. I mean, now you're going to host the G20. Do you guys want this attention? I mean, in a way?
You know, you're probably speaking to the wrong guy here, Brian. I'm deeply skeptical about these political jamborees. I went on many myself and I don't know how much they get, but I've made the point and let me repeat it now to your listeners that a G20 without the G1 and America is a G1 for all the reasons, you know, it's by far the greatest economy, the biggest military and South Africa's most important trading partner in terms of where we export goods to any one single country. We have huge trade with America. If Donald Trump, the president, is absent from the G20, it's a bit like playing Hamlet without the Prince.
It just becomes, I think, another talk fest without meaning. According to President Ramaphosa in his weekly newsletter, President Trump gave him a commitment over the lunch that they had after that Oval Office show that he is going to come to Johannesburg in November. And I'm sure because President Trump speaks his mind, as I think the whole world knows, that he will use that platform to advance a very specific viewpoint, which perhaps, you know, needs to be heard in South Africa and in the wider world.
Yeah, so he's still up in the air. I guess it's 50-50 whether he's going. Tell me what you think of this analysis before you go. This is Victor Davis Hanson looking at what went down in the Oval Office. You know, one thing, I love it.
I think that we should have every president have real conversations, whether it's a friendship or rivalry. I think it respects the audience, the global audience, me and you. There's nothing scripted.
Nobody has no cards. It's, tell me about this. And if your answers are good, you're going to look great. And if they're not, then they're not. You're not going to like the answer.
I like that realness. Here's Victor Davis Hanson, Cut 37. Marco Rubio expelled the ambassador because he called Trump and the MAGA movement racist. They called Israel, funny, they're calling Israelis genocidal people. And they said they would arrest Netanyahu if he ever came into their jurisdiction. They sided with Putin in the Ukraine war. They facilitated a North Korean ship that was shipping arms. They're very anti-American and they're angry now. I guess they're paranoid. They're just flabbergasted that under the previous Democratic administration, they had a free hand.
They were as if they were Mandela recreated and they weren't. But Donald Trump slapped a 34% tariff on them. He's threatening to perhaps get rid of their student visas. He's told them that they may not have access to the American market. And all of a sudden they want to come over here and what? I don't know.
Negotiate about what? I mean, would you like to challenge any of his statements? Well, some of those facts are incorrect. It wasn't a North Korean ship, it was a Russian ship, the Lady Arp. You could say a distinction without a difference.
So that wasn't correct. I actually think the South African position in the world, and I've been a stringent critic of it, I need to say, Brian, of many aspects of our policy, has to some extent been anti-Western, anti-American. On the other hand, they also want to be well regarded and well treated by Western governments, particularly the United States. And I think the fact that President Ramaphosa and his delegation sought an audience with President Trump underlines how significant South Africa now sees that relationship. I think the unfortunate part of some of the actions taken by the U.S. administration, for whatever reason, has been to cut off some pretty vital life-giving situations here. We've got a program inaugurated by President George W. Bush, PEPFAR, which has really helped millions of people who are battling or seriously ill with AIDS.
It has just been cut off. So I think one must be fairly selective how you respond even to what is seen as provocations coming out of the South African government. I think there is a distinction between what the government says in South Africa, what a lot of people in South Africa feel. And even within the government, where for the first time in recent history, my party, which is far more Western-oriented, foreign policy, far more market-friendly, is now sitting in a coalition with Mr. Ramaphosa's party to keep out the extremist elements such as the gentleman who was singing that song, Kill the Boer. So I think the situation here is not binary. I don't think it's black and white.
I think it is relatively complex. And from my point of view, the more engagement America has with South Africa and South Africa has with America, the better for everyone. Yeah, I guess we'll see, because one thing you've got to do is the whole BRICS conference, which is a rival to, I guess, the G20. I guess it's a rival to, I don't know if it's a military alliance, but an economic alliance with India, Russia, China, Brazil. They're talking about their own currency.
Yeah, well, they talk, but I mean, you know, Brian, at the end of the day, I mean, there's an incompassibility of interests. You can have an organization with Iran and India and Brazil together with South Africa and China. It doesn't have a coherent position, a common platform.
It has some areas of identity. I think the idea was to build up some counterweight in the world. But, you know, in the end of the day, countries must pursue their own interests. And the fact that South Africa is now responding to America by sending delegations, president, business people means that the U.S.-South African relationship is actually very important to South Africa and to a lot of jobs here. I mean, you've got 600 U.S. companies here. You've got tens of thousands of jobs that, frankly, are dependent on American investment.
Thanks so much. It's fascinating. But the first one to tell you, I don't know much about South Africa foreign policy.
I saw Invictus. Love the Mandela story. Everyone knows that.
And then we just hear it's getting off the rails. But you helped our audience a lot. Tony Leon, thanks so much. Thanks so much for the opportunity, Brian. Absolutely. We'll do it again. I'm Janice Dean. Join me every Sunday as I focus on stories of hope and people who are truly rays of sunshine in their community and across the world. Listen and follow now at FoxNewsPodcast.com.
