You're listening to Breakpoint This Week, where we're talking about the top stories of the week from a Christian perspective. Today we're going to talk about some international stories, including The return of many Israeli hostages, and a crackdown on the Christian church in China. We're also gonna talk about Bible sales being up in the US. Is a revival happening? We have a lot to get to this week.
We're so glad you're with us. stick around. Welcome to Breakpoint This Week. From the Colson Center for Christian Worldview, I'm Maria Baer, alongside John Stone Street, president of the Coulson Center. John, this week you, maybe like I have, have probably been seeing these videos of hostages being returned from Israel.
and welcomed back into the arms of their families and communities. In Israel, as we know, last weekend President Trump and several other global leaders negotiated this agreement between Israel and Hamas. Which seems pretty tenuous at the moment because we're getting some really troubling news out of Gaza, for example, of Hamas militants performing public executions in the street, and there's apparently arguing amongst rival factions there. But we do know we're watching these videos of the hostages returning to their families, some of them after two. two full years.
And it is incredibly impactful. Have you seen these? I have. They're absolutely stunning. And it is like a terrible juxtaposition against the videos also that have been circulating of public executions by Amas.
in Palestine and you know, it just kind of underscores. How any kind of vision of moral equivalence that was oftentimes communicated in the last two years that both sides are equally guilty or calling this a A war That Israel is waging in Gaza as if they had started it. I mean, all of that sort of stuff, I think, gets undermined. When you see the contrast between how each side is addressing The end of the conflict. It's just such a stark contrast, but it really has been since the very.
Beginning. It's really clear how this started. It's really clear how this has been waged. There are going to be conversations, and there needs to be along the lines of just war. Both in terms of, in addition to whether Israel was justified in the response that they had, how they responded.
And that'll have to be scrutinized. But see, that's the point, isn't it? That Israel will be scrutinized, Israel will scrutinize themselves. In many ways. In fact, there's already an important book that has been written about the failures of October 7th by.
One of the candidates who's probably most likely to replace Benjamin Netanyahu. And also talking about how the war is waged and all that. But see, that sort of self-reflection only happens within certain cultures. It doesn't happen in all of them. And the moral equivalence of critical theory.
That has dominated so much of this analysis in pop culture on pop media. It just to me, it. just shows again how that's just not a big enough worldview at all. Yeah. It's really stark watching, you know, the entire nation of Israel is celebrating the return of these hostages.
I heard a story on World this week about Hostage Square. I believe in Tel Aviv. And I mean, it's just a nationwide celebration, right? And in the same moment, you know, as Israel withdraws its troops or whoever had been in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. That has just evolved, unfortunately, into chaos.
It is not this utopian dream of like all humanitarian aid is there. I'm sure there are people celebrating there as well. But it is a stark difference in the way these two cultures are approaching. This ceasefire. And it is, it seems to me really illustrative of the worldviews at play, and especially because we painted such a strange picture of those worldviews here in the West.
and the way we talked about it on college campuses especially, but in the major news media as well. As if there was an aggressor and a victim that was largely Israel was seen as an aggressor, strangely, even after October 7th. And the victims were the people living in Gaza, and that once, if Israel would agree to leave or whatever, it would get back to. I don't know, some kind of great place to live. And that's just clearly not happening.
It feels. The headlines coming out of there are really scary in the AP. The BBC is covering it. It sounds like it's just roving gangs, and some of them are Hamas, and some of them are Hamas rivals, and they're fighting with each other. Humanitarian aid is still not necessarily getting to where it needs to go, and it's really sad.
No, there's no question. It's very, very sad. I think it's also notable too that not all the hostages are are coming home. Not all the hostages are coming home alive anyway. And it's worth remembering that it's a celebration and a great sadness too.
Because the loss has been just incredible. It's been profound. What we're also learning too is that the vast majority of female hostages are not coming back.
So there was a clear way that the female hostages were treated. And this is the horrific stuff that just. Is impossible to get over in the long term.
So there's a lot of prayers, I think, that are needed, a lot of long-term, obviously, support as well. You'll see that difference in the two communities. What do you do with heartache? What do you do with deep loss? How do you address it?
How do you treat women in this situation? I mean, all of this is exposing just. how different these worldviews really are.
Well, I want to move to some other international news as well. There have been a slurry of stories about a situation unfolding in China right now. The US actually is formally calling on China to release some 30 people that they've now arrested. Most of the 30 all come from the same church, which is called Zion Church, and has been operating as sort of a hybrid home church/slash digitally like Zoom church. For several years now and has been growing, there was a fascinating interview with the daughter of the lead pastor of Zion Church, and this lead pastor has been arrested.
His daughter has not heard from him. She was interviewed on World this Week and on the BBC. And in the BBC interview, she was talking about how the Chinese Communist Party has been ratcheting up its harassment of this church and others like it for years, including installing facial recognition software inside where the church was meeting.
So that they could identify each and every member.
So they've gotten incredibly creative. She was talking about her dad creating sermons and worship sets, recording them solo in a studio. And then distributing them by word of mouth, like from person to person, so that they could all listen to them at some point around the same time, you know, or at least on the same day. And then groups of them would meet together in restaurants or other places and pray, like just ingenious, really courageous stuff. And now he's been arrested and several other leaders within this movement have been arrested.
And In one fascinating exchange on the BBC, the interviewer asked, And I don't think she was meaning to say that she felt this way. I think she was trying to do a devil's advocate question, but it was still an kind of clunky question as a reporter. She said, you know, the Chinese Communist Party in its constitution says that it allows for religious expression, including Christian religious expression.
So I think some people listening and hearing about these arrests are wondering, why not just worship in these house churches or in the churches that the Communist Party are allowing to be open and are sponsored? And the daughter gave a really excellent response. I mean, she was like, well, coerced worship according to the party is not worship of the God of the Bible. But and we have no interest in that. It was a great response.
But I wonder if you could. shed some light on why communism is so historically and contemporally Terrified of Christianity. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's really any totalitarian. state ends up having a really hard time.
with Christians. And sometimes not just Christians. I mean, it's keeping in mind too that In China, there has been a targeted attack against Uyghur Muslims as well, that population. And, you know, to the level that, you know, could be considered genocide.
So Wh why?
Well, it's it's very simple. The the first commandment is Don't have any other gods before me. That's also, by the way, the first commandment of totalitarian states. That's the first commandment of a state like the CCP that is basically trying to. you know Dominate every area of life.
And what happens is, these types of totalitarian systems Guarantee a level of personal freedom as long as you acknowledge who's really in charge. You remember the very first. Persecutions of Christians by the Roman state. You know, a lot of times it wasn't even. Like, you have to denounce Jesus.
It's that you have to acknowledge the pantheon of gods within the Romans. In other words, you have to include him in the other. We're okay if you have him as long as you have ours, but you can't choose him over us. But that's a problem. precisely the loyalty that being a Christian requires.
It's not something where we've had to choose on a public stage or in a public way. like our brothers and sisters in other parts of the world, but we a fundamental question of Christian faithfulness is of loyalty. Who's your God? I mean, our. Our competition has been self, right?
We have turned thou shalt have no other God before me, to I don't have any other God before me, you know, even to the point where instead of seeing me in his image, we redefine God in our image. That's the whole narrative of liberal progressive theology. That's the whole narrative of the American kind of popular experience. That's where expressive individualism. Takes its kind of cultural form right now, but it really is the fundamental choice of loyalty.
Whose world is it? Who sets the rules? Who's the authority? And that is the choice.
So you'll see. The state have just kind of blatant violations of personal freedom and blatant violations of religious freedom. because it is a choice of loyalty. It's a choice of who's in charge. I am fascinated by that reporter's question about why not just worship in the churches that the state would allow.
I think it has some parallels to the evangelical situation in the United States. Obviously, they're very loose. We don't have a totalitarian state necessarily against religious freedom here, but it is being challenged. And there are a lot of people who question, like, why not just, you know, bake the cake or, you know, do whatever. And it kind of betrays this idea of religion and faith as a sort of hobby.
That's where the content doesn't matter as much as, like, well, you're associating, you like to sing songs together, it looks like maybe you pray a little bit. Can't you just do, can't you just tweak that in a little bit? It betrays this idea that the content itself doesn't matter. Because I'll note that that reporter asked, Why don't you just choose to re to worship in the state? allowed churches rather than asking Why is the state okay with some churches but not yours?
That would be the more reasonable question, I would think. Because if she's thinking that if she's gonna take the state, you know, CCP at their word, that they're really champions of religious freedom, then why are they clamping down? And of course, the difference is exactly what you just said, because we believe Christ is Lord and that we owe our lives to him first. And the way he tells us to live, and increasingly, what the Chinese Communist Party is asking us to do is incompatible with that. Yeah, it's exactly right.
You should be a reporter for the BBC. That's a way better question than the one that she asked. I mean, it really is. It's stunning. But that tells you kind of the perspective of religion.
You use the word hobby, I think that's true. I mean, That's secularism, though. Secularism doesn't say you can't be religious. It just says that if you are religious, it's in the privacy of your own head, your own heart, your own. House of worship, right?
This is the difference. You might remember years and years ago now, Chuck Coulson raised alarm. When Hillary Clinton advocated for freedom of worship as opposed to freedom of religion. And basically, he said, look, freedom of worship is everywhere. You know, the ability to believe whatever you want in your own head.
But the ability to actually order your life, the actual to have teachings that you know oppose Quote unquote official teachings to challenge the ultimate loyalty with the state. Like, that's freedom of religion. That's what makes. With the American and Western ideals so powerful and so unique, and also such a great threat.
So it really comes, I think, from a worldview that that kind of a question, or that comes from a worldview that assumes two things. First of all, it assumes something about the state. And it assumes something about Uh religion. What it assumes about the state is that the state is the thing that actually grants rights.
So, if the state grants rights, you have to play by the state's rules. And maybe, yeah, the state will violate some rules, but ultimately, the state is the ultimate protector. All problems need to be solved by the state, and that's really the answer. is is is uh go going with the state. What it says about religion is that religion is something that's not just personal, but also private.
It's a privatized belief system. It's not actually stating anything public.
So it's in a completely different realm. than dealing with issues of state and culture because it's so personal and private. And, you know, that's secularism at a glance, right? If there is no God, it's the state that grants rights, and if there is no God, Then religion is one's own personal preference or hobby, as you put it.
Well, John, there's one more kind of international story I want to hit with you before we take a quick break. You and I spoke last week about the Church of England officially naming a woman as its new head. And this week, the Global Anglican Future Conference, also called GAFCON. Released a communique about kind of announcing a break with the Church of England. Can you help me understand exactly what's going on here?
Well, listen, there's been a group of bishops, mostly coming from the global south, that have been opposing the steps that they have taken, that have been taken towards heresy. by the Church of England in particular, but More of the more liberal and progressive members of the globe, what's called the global Anglican. our communion This week, in response to the decision to name the new archbishop. And by the way, it wasn't just that this is a woman, that'll be how it's framed. But she's also a sexual revolutionary.
She's also progressive when it comes. to very many issues. Everybody that's been in that office in the last Three or four terms have moved left from wherever they're at. I heard she's not full out affirming of everything in terms of some of the extremes we see in the American Episcopal Church, but she is starting. more on that side of the spectrum to begin with and you have the idea that This is a woman and and and female ordination.
is something that is supposed to be still debated in many circles in the Anglican. The Global Anglican Communion, and it is now being kind of decided upon. And all these things kind of play into this.
So, the Global Anglican Futures Conference, or GAFCON, has been meeting now for 25 years. In response to this. GAFCON bishops do not come to Lambeth, when invited by the Archbishop of Canterbury. And by the way, that's what the Archbishop of Canterbury primarily does: invite the bishops to come and meet. There is not really an authority there.
That's respected in the position. But they don't come. But the Archbishop of Canterbury comes to GAFCON meeting.
So it tells you a lot where the power dynamics lie. This is basically a formal announcement.
Now, what's interesting is That The Statement by GAFCON. is not that GAFCON is leaving the communion. The statement is essentially: we are the communion, and we're kicking the archbishop out. And we're kicking the Church of England out, or we're not recognizing the Church of England, and we have the power. of this There's a new name, Global Anglican Communion, which is being formalized now, which extends beyond the Church of England or Anglicanism.
So basically, they're claiming the history, they're claiming the identity, they're claiming the institution. And I think they're kind of saying, what are you going to do about it? We have the numbers, and they do. Two-thirds of the global Anglican body. is under GAFCON bishops as opposed to Uh, the more western bishops who have, you know, have more kind of money and more institutional power, but.
They don't have the numbers. And so it'll be interesting to see really. you know what emerges here The other thing that's really interesting is that the GAFCON statement was very, very specific about where the authority lies and the clear teaching of the Bible, for example. And the American alternative Of what's called the ACNA, the Anglican Church of North America, which was founded as a body to oppose the Episcopal Church or to be an Orthodox alternative to the Episcopal Church. It's not been formally recognized within the the Anglican Communion, but has strong connections within GAFCON.
Um has not settled. women's ordination. has not settled some other issues about ordination. And so, this very, very clear statement, which appeals to straightforward reading of the Bible. and so on, it's going to create problems, I think, for the ACNA.
And identifying with this Anglican body, which clearly they, I think, want to do.
So it'll be interesting to see how that plays itself out too. It is interesting and a little disheartening that so many of these bodies that you're mentioning are forming. As a response. You know, like in leavings, it just sounds to my ears like division all over the place. And sometimes division has to happen.
Right. I mean, book of Jude, you know, I mean, it has to happen. It's just. You know, I'm sitting here listening to this as somebody who's not within Anglicanism, and it just sounds like a game. I mean, it's clearly not.
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but. It is disheartening to me because I imagine to people outside the church as well, this just sounds like. Oh, the Christians are fighting again kind of thing. But it is fascinating to me. It will be fascinating to see the Church of England's response because I imagine if.
This new archbishop is progressive as she seems to be signaling that she is. Then, you know, there's probably a lot of the kind of anti-racism, critical theory stuff seeped into her worldview. How do you respond to the global South denouncing what you're doing? That's a tough spot to be in. Right?
I mean, this is not new. This goes back 20 years now, including the emphasis on DEI kinds of thinking coming out of. Right. You know, the Church of England, not always from the Archbishop, but certainly tolerated by the Archbishop, including. Even going beyond to the sexual revolutionaries, I don't think that is much of a threat to these other bishops.
I mean, literally, they have disrespected the authority of the archbishop for a long time. It'll also be interesting as well. Listen, I think there is a. We need to recognize that Jesus prayed for unity in John 17. It does.
Some sometimes, however, the the purity of witness requires separation. You have, I think, far more examples of separating over things that are irrelevant or don't matter. You know, the joke is the color of the carpet. or who's in charge or whatever. Within Protestant evangelicalism in America.
I mean, I used to live in a town where there was First Baptist, Second Baptist, Third Baptist, and Fourth Baptist. Where do they all come from? They all came from the same body. I also lived in a community where it was the Church of God, the Church of God in Christ, the Church of God in Jesus Christ, the Church of God in prophecy in Jesus Christ, the Church of God in Christ in the Holy Spirit. And every church branched off the other and kept adding words.
So the idea that this is unprecedented or unusual. is not true and the idea that we should pursue unity at all costs that that We should not pursue unity at all costs. I would say that my guess is From the perspective of the African churches. And we've seen similar things happen in Methodism, for example, in just the last couple of years. You know, you want to be on the side of those who are standing for truth.
It's not always going to be perfect or pretty, you know, working out all the details of separating or whatever. But again, that's not what these bishops are thinking. These bishops are not separating. These bishops are claiming and saying, now you have left. The the the line.
You know, one of the more interesting and fun, if not consequential, although it is. Exercises of studying church history is asking that question, who left who. Because oftentimes it is the one who seems to have left, who didn't leave, and they're recognizing that others have left before. And that's why, first and foremost, it is absolutely essential. That you know what is true.
And Christianity begins with the truth, the truth sets us free. The truth is God himself and connecting him. Knowing the truth of reality, that's why doctrinal things actually matter. The joke is that the argument is over how many angels fit on the head of the pin. Theology can be irrelevant in that way.
But throughout the history of the church, you're talking about what's the nature of the Trinity. I mean, these are really, really important questions. And these are anthropological questions that have divided the communion in recent years. Mm-hmm. And it started very quickly after Jesus' death.
I mean, the Jesus talks about it. Pretty quickly. Pretty quickly. Pretty quickly. Let's take a quick break, John.
We'll be right back with more breakpoints this week. Hey, John Stone Street here. This is your official invite to join us at the 2026 Colson Center National Conference. It'll be held in Knoxville, Tennessee, May 29th to the 31st. Again, Knoxville, Tennessee, May 29th to the 31st.
The theme this year is you are here. You might remember those large, now largely empty buildings called shopping malls, where you had all kinds of stores and you were trying to find the one you were looking for and you had to go to the map. And not only did you need to find the store, you needed to find that yellow arrow or the star that said you are here. Our culture today changes so fast and at such a profound civilizational level. And that, of course, is because we've abandoned the truth and we're reaping the consequences.
So a conference like this is absolutely necessary to get the lay of the land, to kind of figure out what's happening in culture and at what moment we're really in. If you've ever wondered if your faithfulness and obedience can make a difference in this civilizational moment that we're in, this is the conference for So, join us at the Colson Center National Conference. You'll be hearing from fantastic speakers like the one and only Oz Guinness, the remarkable story of Chloe Cole, Abdu Murray, and many more that will be announced soon. If you register before November 29th, you can receive up to 50% off tickets. For more details and secure your spot, For the Colson Center National Conference, May 29th through the 31st.
Go to colsonconference.org. That's colsonconference.org. We're back on Breakpoint this week. I'm Maria Bear alongside John Stone Street. John, let's talk about some good old American news.
happening this week. We are seeing some crazy graphs about the downward trend of particularly members of Gen Z identifying as transgender and not just transgender, but. Queer, I guess, like on the LGBTQ whatever spectrum and non-binary. And yeah, I saw a hilarious comedic sketch this week that I absolutely cannot recommend. And so I won't mention the comedian, but he was talking about how, like, hey, I'm on, you know, I'm willing to accept the LGBTQIA, whatever community, but the plus, the plus goes a little too far.
What is the plus? Get it together, guys. Like, make a decision. Which I thought was really funny. But it seems like as more and more doctors, Institutions The president and his administration Call into question the You know, unspeakable nature of this debate over the last five, ten years that, you know, boys can be girls, and all of this is real and scientifically rigorous.
Now that that's Coming more into question, you're seeing fewer and fewer kids in particular identify as this, which again, honestly, if nothing else, just breaks my heart, John. Yeah. Well, listen, it's early. This is the first kind of graphing we've seen that suggests anything like this, but it was a pretty stark drop-off. This graph is going to have to be really wrong to not be at least pointing to something that is significant.
Then I think it is. One of the things is, look, I remember. I think it was about eight or nine years ago.
Somebody told a story. I was at a meeting and was telling a story about a friend of uh uh uh who had told Yeah. Junior high. And this person had asked. Her friend, how many of the students in your class identify as LGBTQ?
And she looked at her back and said, Well, all of them do. And you're talking about sixth, seventh, and eighth graders.
So none of them were having sex at the time. Uh but they were identifying this way. And Trying to wrap my head around that, and many people were, where you had gone from, you know, this is an alternative sexual lifestyle. To this is an identity, to even if you're not having sex, this is your identity. And then also the critical theory thing kind of loading in on it, where there are good guys and bad guys in this debate and it just got swapped, where the good guys are those who are the minorities because they're the oppressed and the bad guys are those who are straight.
So then you had an incentive if you were in that group and had been taught that kind of frame of reference, even if it were just kind of like in the water and you didn't really know that, you know, to be cis was bad and to be trans would be good.
So even if you didn't really have a reason to identify this way, you at least want to identify as non-binary and blah, blah, blah. In other words, This was such a front-loaded category in a context where there was a strong push in one direction. It shouldn't really surprise us that now that some of that critical theory pressure has been alleviated. You mentioned the Title IX stuff. You mentioned that We're at least trying to pull these books out of the libraries.
Such wonderful stories of parents who were courageous enough. I want to give a shout out to Aaron Lee. In Denver, whose story her case was just not taken by the Supreme Court. And I know her work has been. Excellent in this regard on a state level.
Just basically pushing back, saying it does, there's not an inevitability here, right? There's not like a Everyone's going to get on board, and this science is all settled. People who were just willing to say no. That in and of itself explains a lot of this drop-off. because the identification was explained with an amount of social pressure.
Right. And not just, you know, we often think about like. Oh, you know, there's this social contagion of, you know, kids that are going to dress as furries. I just mean those that were just unwilling to say that they were straight and cis because that was to be an oppressor. Right, so this whole thing was so loaded.
It was so dishonest, there was so much pressure. that even alleviating that pressure just a little bit. Was going to explain or lead to some where kids just like, I don't know. I don't even understand any of this stuff. I don't even know what that meant.
Totally. Totally. I just, I just. I, yeah, I just said what she was saying, and that's right, yeah, and so um. I think that's one thing to say.
It's clear. Uh evidence As if we needed any more that this was indeed a social contagion from the very beginning. Um it just the To not even consider that or to say you couldn't consider that up front was so dishonest. Are encouraged. I hope that pastors and church members and Christians who said we shouldn't.
push back on this or ashamed. You know, or people who believe that they were on the wrong side of history, or you know, that they've now come to their senses. on this because this was such a Strange blip. I mean, you kind of wonder, it's not over, right? It's not over.
But don't you kind of wonder is like, is this going to be like The Salem witch trial story of early 21st century America. When people write this story, Is this going to be like The Salem witch trial story of our time? Like, how do you mean? Like, that this Because there was this whole hysteria. I mean, listen, it's not identical.
I'm just saying what you're saying. It's kind of the social hysteria, and everyone was certain about something, and it turned out to be all upside down. And we're going to go and go. And then there was this weird thing that happened at the beginning of the 21st century for about 10 years where people actually started to say this kind of crazy stuff. And I think it's way too early to pronounce that that's where this is headed.
My goodness. See, listen, I'm more cynical than you even because Looking back at that, first of all, the Salem Witch Trial story. Thank you. Yes, that's true. The Salem Witch Trial story is like crazy overblown.
It's fascinating to look into this. They never burned anybody in Salem, Massachusetts. All of us true. But it made the history books is my point. For sure, for sure.
It's a whole vibe. Like people still associate that place with it hundreds and hundreds of years later, all that stuff. But I think for better or worse for worse. People in Salem, when that craze was happening, people really believed it. I think there are a Vanishingly small number of people who ever actually believed this stuff, the trans stuff.
I think it's even smaller than people who believed that women in Salem, Massachusetts, in 15, whatever, were witches. Because it is so. Irrational. It it is so outrageously and I think that's why I think the reckoning It will it will have to take maybe even more hundreds of years for this reckoning. But like.
There's going to have to be like the reckoning is not going to be, oh man, these people fell captive to this really weird idea and then it resolved itself. It's going to be there was a mass sign-on to a delusion based on social signaling that mattered a lot to people. But, and it makes me think, I came across a quote this week from Renee Girard, the philosopher. And it made me think of this: this graph about the downward trending of the trans identity. He says: Philosophers, for their misfortune, are not the only people in the world.
genuinely mad and frantic people are all around them, and do them the worst turn of all. They take them at their word. That's what this story is going to be. It's going to be a bunch of grown-ups and adults writing thesis papers. about gender bending and how none of this is real.
And then the young, impressionable, sick. and hurting people who took them at their word. and were irreparably harmed as a result of it. That's the story. Right.
Well, you could be right. I think that is a. legitimate explanation. I mean, at some level. There was premises that were also already, I think people really did truly believe in.
Relativism Moral relativism and then that devolved quickly into Ontological relativism, in other words, our realities are our own and that of course affects identity and you had the other kind of loss of Stabilizing influences. I think there's going to be a lot of explanations for it, but. We'll see. If there really is a few people, people say stuff like that, and then they go home and make dinner for their kids, and they. Feel wronged when somebody lies to them.
Like, you know what I mean? It's very rare that a person. professes those kinds of beliefs and then actually lives like it. From the thought leader perspective, yeah.
Some of them were the artist and some of them were living in a kind of you know environment that allowed them to flourish. I will say that I think one of the most important explanations. And there's a forthcoming book on this that's just absolutely helpful. You know, as Carl Truman tends to do, is basically pull the explanation all together. And he's using the word desecration to take things beyond disenchantment.
That there there's a lot there and the desecration of the sacred. Whether it's sacred order, sacred morality. Or the sacred person, you know, the image bearer. I think there's going to be Some great help. In this upcoming volume, about it as well.
But anyway, praise God that it is going in the other direction. It's a stark. Swerve. You know, you kind of It's kind of hard to believe how quickly things are turning around if this graph is pointing to reality. But then remember, it wasn't that long ago that this thing was bought.
I mean, listen, 2009, we're sitting in a room talking about the Manhattan Declaration. with Chuck Coulson and the the trans issue comes up and You know, there was a real debate. Like, should this be included in this statement on life, marriage, and religious liberty? And the decision was almost universal. There was probably a couple of people that thought it should, but most people were like, no, that's still French.
It's still not central. It'll distract from the, you know, it'll distract from the key. We think it's coming, but it'll distract from the central purpose of the document. And they were right in 2009. 2015, you know, they should have absolutely included it six years later had they done it then, but they didn't.
They did it, and that's how quickly things can turn. And apparently it's how quickly things can turn back around, praise God.
Well, let's talk about that. There were some other stats that came out this week. I think it was Fox and Friends in particular that shared this in a segment. About, you know, they're calling it a Christian revival question mark. Like, what do these stats kind of mean?
And there's been a lot of debate about what they mean and don't mean, but let me just give you a few of them. Annual sales of the Bible. since 2022 have gone up 41, almost 42%. Since 2019, downloads of religion and spirituality apps, which I'm going to guess is a very large category. Nevertheless, those downloads have gone up 80%.
Huge. The number of people streaming worship music on Spotify since 2019 has gone up 50%. I mean, I wouldn't conclude unequivocally that Christian revival, absolutely, it's here, but these stats are not nothing. Like, something's happening. At the very least, it's becoming more socially acceptable to be Christian curious.
And isn't that a good thing? Oh man. I I don't know. I think that there's evidence of this kind of thing, but these three aren't it because I want to say which Bible, which app, and which worship song. Right.
I mean, it's like how the how Google is like, look, 70% of our apps are educational. And it's like, oh, they used a vocabulary word and they categorize that as educational. Yeah. Go on. Because, well, I mean, there are quote-unquote.
versions of study Bibles that center the The individual or center some other feature other than God. There's certainly apps that make you the center of. The Bible or the center of spirituality, which have far more in common. With you know, the the Oprah's old old show than has with, you know, discipleship And certainly, that's the case when it comes to worship music. There's a good bit of heresy that gets communicated.
And worship music. And there's some great ones. This is not a complaint about new versus old at all, because there's some wonderful things. I think we're in a little bit of a renaissance with worship. We've got some inclinations.
We might be. And I think there's some pushback on that. But, you know, I wouldn't know because at our church, if anybody sings anything, a new hymn was written before the 16th century.
So the um That's kind of a joke and kind of for real. The larger point is, I do think there's lots of evidence. I'd be more interested. You remember when Ian Hirsi Ali announced that? at the art conference in London that she was a Judeo-Christian.
Everyone's like, I wonder what that means. And then a month later, she described some of it and then she said, and I'm going to church to figure out more. And then you're kind of like, oh, that's interesting, right? Because Going to church says something else. There is a lot of room to grow in this area of revival, and there are.
amazing signs. And I think that the Christian's task is twofold. Number one is. If God is working, don't miss it. And, you know, Henry Blackabe and his experience in God's study years ago, you know, talked about this: that find out where God's working and go join him.
And I think right now there's two real ways to miss. If there is a revival, and I think that's a tough word to. apply without doing a lot of the hard work. And we pray for it all the time and we hope for it all the time and we believe that it can happen. If there is, there's two ways to miss it.
Number one is to Do the kind of thing that we see some people do and say, well, he couldn't have come this way. You know, it couldn't have come through a conservative political person like Charlie Kirk, or it couldn't have come at a time when, you know, Trump is president, or it couldn't have come in all that. And we're seeing some of that. There was actually a. A thought piece like that in the New York Times this week.
Well, it can't come this way. Like, really?
Something's happening in Christendom, but I'm scared about it. Is that what it was? Spend all your time saying I told you so. Or doing a purity test on this side and saying, if you're not fully on board with us, then you can't stay. And listen, the re the the revivalism In history, particularly American history, is full of people who were skeptics up front.
And then you kind of go, well. When they come around you know I'm not saying we we we we lower our standards or You know, we pass over things that are ultimately important. But we can spend all of our time You know, telling someone else why they were wrong for the last five years or 10 years, or they're not fully in, or we can say, come on board, and here's what it looks like, you know. And I think there's a lot of infighting right now, a lot of purity tasks. This came out of the second.
half of the neo-fundamentalist movement where You know, there was these kind of purity tasks, secondary separation. Like, are you one of us and how do we know? And you had to be right on all these little things. And I see some of that right now. And I don't think that that, I think that's a good way to miss what God's doing.
And I'd hate for that to happen because there is an incredible opportunity. I don't know if. Listen, these three stats that you brought out, I don't want to be too cynical because It's it they're saying something, right? It's not a nothing. And there are other indicators that I think are even more, that are even better.
The biggest one being church attendance, particularly among young people, is clearly up. And especially a young man, you want to open your eyes to a stab. When we say that more young men are going to church than young women, Dude, that's like the first and Christian history. You remember, Christianity was always accused of being a religion of poor women. And This is something, something is happening.
Now, is that going to be messy? you take these young men and send them to church, it's going to be messy. But. That's evidence too.
So, something is going on. What do we call it? What do we not call it? Let's just not. Miss it, I guess is my point.
Yeah, I mean, I get it's interest really interesting sociologically to look at it and, you know, to look at things like this later and say what precipitated it, what was the exact nature of it. But I just don't think that revival is the kind of thing that can be studied that way. Because if we believe it's a movement first and foremost of the Holy Spirit. And we know unequivocally from history and personal experience that the Holy Spirit reaches each of God's people differently. It's natural for us, and I sympathize with the desire to say, like, what is it that's working?
And how do we replicate it? And how do we maximize this opportunity? And that's not necessarily bad, but it just revives spiritual revival. Categorically, it doesn't really lend itself to that kind of thing because it's a work of the spirit.
So I think our response should be. individual faithfulness, corporate faithfulness, To the gospel and to Jesus, but also to our own walks of faith and sanctification, and then kind of waiting and praying. and hoping and watching, like you're saying, like don't miss it. Because if we try to turn this into... like a study.
And then we say, well, this ad campaign worked or this. almost in like a political sense or a polling sense. I think we're thinking about it the wrong way. It's not that kind of thing. Does that make sense?
Well, yeah, I guess it depends on what you mean. Yeah. Can it be sociologically studied? The answer is absolutely yes. First Great Awakening was, Second Great Awakening was, the Business Men's Revival was, you know, the Billy Graham effect.
What always tends to come out of those efforts is people saying. It's the thought leaders we have right now saying, if you're sharing the gospel this way, you're doing it wrong. It's the pieces we got after Charlie Kirk's memorial service saying, if you felt stirred by this, you shouldn't have. And here's why. Like, that's what I'm trying to do.
Well, I think it, well, I, and I appreciate that. I would agree that we shouldn't get our methods. from kind of sociological analysis. Right. That I would absolutely agree on.
I think there's a level of faithfulness in that. You you expect God you know, to bring The results The the reason I would say that it There can be sociological analysis is simply That when we're talking about something about revival, we're talking about something more than emotional stirring and fervor.
So, and after the first Great Awakening, this was a big fight. Like, you know, was this legitimate or was this emotional excessivism? And there were scars. Scholars and I mean the theologians on both sides, right? I mean, they're looking sociologically, but one of the points is: if this is legitimate.
You will see it in an increase in righteousness.
Okay, so this is one of the things that Edwards points out. You will see it not just in the fact that more people attend church, but because more people attend church. Fewer people are beating their wives. and fewer people are doing this. In other words, it will have real tangible result.
And the kind of cultural waters. One of the results was the American Revolution. I don't think you get the American Revolution. Without the Great Awakening, Now. Is the American Revolution fully justified within a framework of rebellion of authority and all that sort of stuff?
I mean, that's where it gets to me super interesting. It certainly did happen and And God moved, you know, throughout, and so on. And that doesn't mean like the. the the awakenings that happened prior to the colonies. in Great Britain weren't legitimate too, right?
There but the point is is that There are real sociological Ramifications. It's not just a a consequence for individuals. It does change the individual, but it changes families. It changes. communities There's really cool examples of this if you look at something like new tribes, missions, you know, who've gone to these places that are.
You know, really remote locations, and then suddenly they hear about the gospel, and then what that means in terms of how. you know, men treat women and how much people drink and There's just these real tangible expressions. And you would expect this if this is true and real. True. Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about even the the community the small ethnic communities coming out of Myanmar that, you know, we have a large population in our girls' school and what the what the gospel has done in that small I mean, just completely changed that community.
forever. Yeah, I guess I don't mean necessarily that we shouldn't study the impact of it. I'm more thinking about like obsessing over the sociological impetus, like trying to nail down exactly what caused this and can we replicate it? Oh, yeah, well, as opposed to. Yeah, and that is a more cynical and skeptical way that it's also done.
So, you know, there's a Very Prominent interpretation. I mean, it's impossible, for example, to look back at the First Great Awakening and say nothing happened because something clearly happened, right? Right. So, what if you do, if you're a flat-out secularist and you're looking at it, well, you write, I'm trying to remember that the author. Who has written extensively on this, but basically suggests, oh, yeah, well, it's explained through social fervor.
It's explained. It was the Salem Witch Trials. It was a social contagion. The newspaper, and it basically looks at the newspaper. The newspaper, Thomas Prince covered these conversions.
And it created this sense of expectation and that's where it all came from. It was social fervor, but trans wasn't. But that was. Interesting. My name is Billy Hutchinson, head of the Colson Educators Program.
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Okay, well, let's talk about. righteousness. And or a lack thereof, John, because Politico ran a story this week. About a long series of disgusting text messages that they've uncovered among. members of young Republicans clubs across the country, but particularly in New York from what I can read.
But this is these are men and women all over the country. And young Republicans, I think, you know, ranges from 18 to 30, depending on the club. And who we're talking about but Basically, this was just the most like the seediest kind of. Text message chain between young people making the most tasteless jokes. which to me seem very obviously to be jokes, but that doesn't make them any less tasteless or grotesque.
I mean, about. Nazis and violence against people, and children, and political violence, and all the gross stuff you'd imagine. Is this overblown or is this a real emergency? You know, I It can't be dismissed fully like some people are trying to do. Basically, like the stakes are too high.
If we condemn anybody on our side, then we're undermining our cause. I th this is not something I I'm not talking as a conservative, I'm talking about a Christian. What should What should identify my loyalties first and foremost are the tenets of my faith and what I believe to be true about people. Not the alignment that happens to exist from the right um on on the right or the left, and which right now for Is more clearly on the right. And then to say, well, for my cause to succeed, I can't then, you know, do this.
You got to. You got to call it out. You got to call balls and strikes. We've talked about this with the president. We've talked about this with people in the cabinet.
We've talked about this in political leaders and cultural leaders. you know, people that were on our side, quote unquote, of of all kinds of things. And, you know, this, I often think when I see stories like this of that wonderful line from. President Lincoln. when asked if God is on our side or their side.
Because there were revivals breaking out on both the north and the south, northern and southern armies. His answer was, let's just pray we're on God's side. That's the ultimate category. And that's kind of an anecdote, but it's a really helpful one in my mind. It's really powerful, and it's how we should think.
I do think that You know, I haven't Uh done the the deep dive, it's impossible to think that all of these Quotes Can be just explained, like, oh, we're taken out of context because there's a point where you're just like, there's not a context here. That's all. Yeah, that doesn't work. Because even if all of them were taken out of context, there is a crassness here that is a problem. You know what I thought of?
Here's what I immediately thought of. Years ago, I hosted a series of forums at a college that I where I taught for years. And I had a um various conversations. Represented by different sides on things like Schooling and tax policy and the LGBT issues and one of the things we dealt with was race. And in the middle of this.
And this was in a Small town in East Tennessee. A group of students I didn't know they were students at the time interrupted the forum. wearing hoods like they were KKK members. One was carrying a bat, the other was carrying a chain. And immediately.
Yeah, I mean obviously it was chaos. There was a a a a young black woman who was speaking at the time. when they walked in? And when I, um... Chase them down.
eventually found out that they were students at this school. And they were freshmen. And you expect freshmen to do stupid things, but this. was pretty stupid. And when I said, what on earth?
Were you doing? Their answer was, I just thought it'd be funny. It's when I realized, you know, you can tell a lot. About where a culture is by What it laughs at, you can tell a lot about where an individual is by what they think is funny because some things aren't funny. Right?
I mean, how many times we stop and go, I shouldn't have laughed at that, but it is funny. But then there are other things that just are never going to be funny. And just to laugh at certain things is to reveal crassness. If you're in the military, for example, and you've been in combat, there's gallows humor that kind of can take over. That's different.
than something like this, where you're just It it it reflects, I guess, a A coarseness of soul, a coarseness of heart. And I I thought about that immediately. Because even if you're on the right side of an issue to to to laugh or to make jokes about those kinds of things, I think, reflects something that's pretty There's something deeply wrong. If you can't keep and the desecration line from From from Dr. Truman.
seems to apply here as well. Anyway, I think there's a level of that here. And I think it's a bigger deal than what we think. There's some things that you just should that shouldn't be considered jokes. It shouldn't be considered, and the fact that it.
enters your discourse in that sort of way.
So something pretty profound. Yeah, I was thinking about the desecration thing too, because I think it hurts the conversation. I don't know if anybody's doing this, because I'll confess I've kind of avoided some of the coverage of this. But It hurts the conversation if people are talking about these text messages as if they were literal. I think when you send a text message, you should always be aware that somebody might, you should take Renee Girard seriously, and somebody might take what you say literally, and that should.
very much temper what we say, especially publicly. But I think I don't think anybody actually thinks that these were literal. But I think the desecration, like the transgression of it was the point. That's what I've always thought about this kind of humor. It's significant that some of the people sending the texts were like in their late 20s.
If this were 14-year-olds, I would feel differently about it a little bit. Content could be the same and just as reprehensible, but I would feel a little bit differently about the consequences of it. Just because I remember, like I remember some of the Themes of the jokes that we made in youth group when I was 16. And it was stupid and horrible, but we were. We were shocking ourselves, and that was like the point.
We thought it was funny. And you learn, thankfully, we learned those lessons analog and didn't have to have a digital record of them. I certainly am on board with there being real-world career consequences for people who are caught doing these kinds of things. Because of how it tarnishes the rest of your worldview and the people who share your worldview. And all of that, I think, should happen.
But I also just, I don't know. But you also need to understand. But one of the context points here is that we live in a world that still defines adolescence. Really late. Until the end of the day.
Remember when. Remember when there was that little controversy over the fact that you could stay on your parents' health insurance until you were 26? Isn't it quaint to remember how we were horrified by that? 26 now is considered like prepubescent in the way we talk about it at this point. Yeah, the dominant definition of adolescence is 11 to 30.
And that tells you something first: adolescence didn't always exist. We are the first students. civilization to implement adolescence. In any sort of kind of standard way. And every other culture in the history of the world until the late.
20th century Western world, you went from being a kid to being an adult. Diane West's book, The Death of the Grown-Up, actually begins with this line. There was a time when there were no teenagers. And she blames it on Chubby Checker because he gave teenagers their own dance and then the automobiles let teenagers have their own dances. And then you had marketers and so on.
And I mean, there really is a sociological history to the stage of life called adolescence, but it was 13 to 18. You know? That's what it was. It was: you're a child. 12 is usually the rite of passage because we're talking about things like puberty and things like that.
And then thirteen, and then by eighteen, that's when you can vote. Right? But that's not. Where people are expected to grow up.
Now it's 30. In fact, the marriage, which was a marker of growing up, that's When do people get married? 30, if they get married at all. the number one consumers of video games are um m men in their, you know, mid to late twenties.
So There's just so many features in which we have embraced adolescence, extended adolescence.
So we steal kids' innocence earlier and earlier and earlier, and then we never expect them to grow up on the back side of it. And, you know, I don't want to dismiss this, like boys will be boys.
Some people are. And I think that when you dismiss the boys will be boys, first of all, you have really low expectations. And that's. That's a t that's a form of tyranny as People like Thomas Sowell have pointed out in other communities. And if you have low expectations, then you somehow You know, you're not talking about boys.
In other times, people in their late 20s wouldn't have been tweeting like this, they would have been leading. you know, regiments into battle. Or they would have been managing farms over large acres, hundreds and hundreds of acres. Or overseeing incredible kind of construction projects or something like that. There's just a different level of expectation.
But by the way, I also think This is another way. I mean, I hate to, I feel like we beat on critical theory a good bit, but critical theory divides people up into us versus them and says they're the good guys and we're the bad guys. And I think there's been a decent Expression of Critical theory on the right. It's usually on the left, but there's a group on the right. Say if they're on the right, then they're the good guys always.
And listen. Sultan Itsm was still right. The line of good and evil does not you know run in between cultures or nations, it runs right down the middle of the human heart. And if you Further excuse the human heart with this stage of life called adolescence, you're going to get yourself in more of a mess. Yeah, it was a real disappointing and tragic thing.
Not surprising for a lot of people. I do think that there's probably plenty of those things that are being added to this list that. Our uh being taken out of context. But to say that there's not a coarseness problem, that there's not a Uh a pro a problem. of of low expectations for that age group.
Um I think would be missing it. We've kind of reckoned with it in high school and college sports. There's been a reckoning, you know, that we should expect young men to act. better than this?
So anyway, yeah, we'll see how it all comes together in the days ahead.
Well, John, I want to get to a couple questions if we can before we wrap up the program today.
Okay, this first question comes from a listener named Jesse. He says, or she says, sorry. I'd love to hear your thoughts about who should fund scientific research. Is there any role for federal spending? What about the claim that university research is a cornerstone of a growing economy?
Is it true the industry Won't fund basic sciences because they're too narrowly focused on short-term applied research that will drive profits. Would the conversation look different if the nation's debt weren't so high? would cutting off the NIH and NSF, National Science Foundation, even make a difference in the deficit. What about world view of the scientists? Does the secular or Darwinist worldview, for example, of cancer researchers make their findings any less valuable?
Well, this is a wide-ranging question. Is there a place in our worldview for the federal funding of scientific research? I think that's essentially the question here. Oh, sure. I could throw this.
I mean, I think there's even within a really limited role for the state. You know, if you even reduce it all the way down to Romans 13 and nothing else, you would still. theoretically have room there for scientific research in terms of protecting Good behavior and punishing evildoers, I think, especially in areas of national defense, there would be. you know, reasons to employ scientific research, to improve weapons, to improve Defense, improve body armor. I mean, one one could think about all kinds of different reasons.
I think the question of universities is a little bit More difficult. I mean, that's one of the things that has been pointed to to justify. The government continuing to fund Harvard University when the president. threaten to re pull that funding is like, well, you know There's so much scientific research that they do. And some of that medical research is necessary, and some of that medical research is not.
I mean, we know, for example, from just the early. Days of what Doge was able to accomplish, that there was an awful lot of money going to an awful lot of research. That was completely. Bizarre, absurd. Even clearly, with no function within national defense, somebody's pet project that was moved forward.
Who are they hiring to do that research? Oftentimes this is going to happen out of colleges and universities or other places. If you lose a definition. The fundamental definitions of what is a human, what's good and bad. You know, these things can go off the rails really quickly.
Unfortunately, you know, in the political debate, I think, and in the national media debate, it's kind of all or nothing. It's either you give Harvard everything that they want or you give them nothing. And I think certainly there's got to be something in between. I think there's also the reality that Harvard has an incredible endowment and doesn't deserve any more of my tax dollars, but that's another. conversation altogether.
But yeah, I I mean You know Ideology tends to drive science. That has especially been the the the case in recent decades, and we have absolutely seen A growth In a mistrust of science and educational institutions. As some of the excesses that are exposed. And for good reason. That's the whole point.
Yeah. I think research is always a good idea. We should always study God's world to learn more about it. And I think that that always has potential for great benefit. It's kind of easy to understand perverse incentives that could come into play if you have, for example, pharmaceutical research that is.
Only funded or sponsored by a pharmaceutical company, for example.
However, that happens a lot, and the research can be great and helpful.
So I think the question of who funds something is always, I mean, it's one of those open-handed issues. It depends on the thing and The character of the who and all those things, but the research itself is, I would say, a great thing. We have another question from a listener who pointed out that we're always talking about these cases. In the court system, Supreme Court and otherwise, against the state of Colorado, your home state. And this listener asked, When would it be time for the Coulson Center to not be headquartered in Colorado?
Do you think about that? All the time, absolutely. We're not headquartered actually legally because of our birth out of prison fellowship.
So A lot of our papers at the time, and there was other things, and this is unusual for a corporation or a nonprofit to be. You know, legally documented in another state. That's our case. That actually gives us a. little bit of elbow room when it comes to government mandates.
and you know around health care and things like that at the state level. Uh which is helpful. Uh that keeps us from violating some of the th some of the hard, fast red lines that that I that that we have. We also, by the way, it's an interesting state where protections for religious institutions tend to be Pretty strong. Uh where the state really tries to violate that is going after private citizens.
or people, you know, like Jack Phillips, who's a baker and not a pastor. You know, I don't think We'll see very many cases, if at all. you know, of somebody You know, trying to force a church to perform a gay wedding, but trying to force a baker to perform a gay wedding cake. That's where you're going to see a lot in a state like Colorado. uh which made such a quick turn from being you know red to blue or you know, more libertarian really to more progressive.
So I don't think that there's anything that implicates us as an institution. The challenge is always when do you stay, when do you go? And that's a question. If you're on the board of a you know, Christian College who's going progressive or You're on the um A citizen in a particular, you know, even city within a more conservative state. you know, like uh nor northern Virginia versus Virginia or Raleigh or Charlotte compared to you know, the the rest of North Carolina.
Is weren't you implicated? And when Should you leave? You just know when you leave, you have no voice anymore. You can't fight any longer, right? Once you're gone, you're gone.
And that's pretty much. Probably the thing that I've thought of more than anything else is I don't want to leave too soon.
Now, I will say, and I've told many people on a personal level: if our kids were. Four and two. You know, then we would have gone because I wouldn't trust our state to not target my kids personally. You know, we're we're at a stage now where You know, it's a little bit different. But young kids, it would be really hard.
And We have we have an organization that is you know registered in another state were were were dispersed. And we have made it really clear that if for conscience any of our employees need to go somewhere else that we will not only honor that, but help facilitate it in any way we can.
Sometimes leaving can send a message to. But you're right, it also relinquishes some of the right to speak into the situation as well.
Well, John, that is going to do it for the program today. Let's talk recommendations real quickly. I will recommend, we've mentioned Ross Douthett's podcast Interesting Times before. He had an interview recently with Doug Wilson out of Moscow, Idaho, of Canon Press. It was a fascinating interview.
I've read about Doug Wilson for years and had never really formed my own opinion. The interview was incredibly compelling. Douthett was very generous, I thought. And really let Pastor Doug Wilson speak and make his case. And It was fascinating.
I've, I've never, it was such a gift to hear somebody challenge, I would say, Doug Wilson's worldview without character assassination. I certainly formed my own strong opinions after that. But it was really worth a listen. Doutha is such a fantastic interviewer and it was really clarifying. I value that kind of journalism because it's rare.
So I highly recommend his podcast. I want to recommend a group. I'm really fascinated with this a new approach to medicine. particularly dealing with infertility. that is offering kind of alternative help.
without just punting to something like I IBF. And there is a website called facts about fertility, factsaboutfertility.org. And I just thought, man, more people need to know about this so that they can recommend it. to young couples in particular who are struggling with this. It's a way of helping Young women in particular understand their bodies and maybe the things that they are struggling with.
There are um Speakers out of this organization that can come to your conference or event or Help you out. There are networks of doctors who are working on what's called restorative reproductive medicine. And it is really promising, really helpful. We might remember we had a conversation about this with Madeline Kearns. uh who went down this pathway dealing and and and just has given birth.
to their first child. And not only that, but was able to at some level get a degree of healing. the things that she had struggled with. Much of her adult life.
So I think it's a fascinating area of exploration, and may God call more. people into this area. And the website is factsaboutfertility.org. Awesome. Thanks, John.
Well, that is all the time we have for the program today. Thank you so much for listening to Breakpoint This Week. From the Golson Center for Christian Worldview, I'm Maria Baer, alongside John Stone Street. We'll see you all back here next week.
