You're listening to Breakpoint This Week, where we're talking about the top stories of the week from a Christian worldview perspective. Today we're going to talk about the shooting that took place at the LDS Church in Michigan and we're also going to have a conversation about third wayism and Charlie Kirkism and what's the difference and when should we use which approach. We have a lot to cover today. Stick around. Welcome back to Breakpoint This Week.
I'm Katie Faust, and I am here with John Stone Street. We're going to hit a few of the headlines that have been trending across social media and media media, regular media, over the last week. And we're going to kick off with a really sad and disturbing attack. on an LDS church that took place last week. Um, on September 28th.
And this was this was awful. One part mass shooting, one part arson attack. Um while people were worshiping.
So, John, you want to say anything about that? We can talk a little bit. You know, there's been a lot of discussion since Charlie Kirk's. Assassination about violence, political violence, specifically targeting a violence of Christians specifically, how does this fall into that whole matrix of political violence? And does it fall into that rubric at all?
Well, it falls into the rubric of violence. It falls into the rubric of violence against religious communities. What it doesn't fall into neatly is the neat political categories that we've tried to throw this kind of violence into. Where, when it seems to be easily blamable on the right, the left is quick to do it. And when it seems to be blameable on the left, the right does it.
Now, I'm not saying at all that there's no reason for that. We have seen. Kind of extremists, more so on the left, recently commit acts of violence. Particularly targeting religious communities, targeting religious figures, targeting people. You know, interestingly enough, on specifically, it seems like the trans ideology has had a lot to do with it, whether with the comorbidity of a mental illness with a mass shooter who identifies as trans or non-binary or one of the many identity categories, and then blames people that do not agree with those categories and then targets them.
Uh this was someone who uh Apparently, hated Mormons, and that is about what we know. But you know, this kind of points to, I think, a couple of things. Number one is. There is limits on breaking everything down merely in political categories. Politics is not big enough.
To carry all the water when it comes to who we are, when it comes to why we do what we do, when it comes to who we associate with. There's something more fundamental and there's something deep. And that is, of course, our deeply held beliefs about the nature of reality, what people call our worldview. And then what we have now in the Western world, which is the mental breakdowns of those who have lost touch. with reality in deep and profound ways.
Those seem to be the common denominators. I think you can also point to family issues. This was a guy who wasn't young. That's abnormal because most of those who have carried out acts of mass violence have been young. He is male, so that is a pretty consistent feature.
And clearly, you know, super angry at Mormons. Unfortunately, this sparked off an entire conversation that needs to be had. I think it needs to be had. Because of a lot of other features in the culture right now, which is where do Mormons fit in the spectrum of religious denominations in America and relationship with Christianity. I wish that that wasn't a topic that had to be brought up so soon when so many people are suffering.
and and and so on. But there has been An opportunism, both by Mormons wanting to, you know, be a part of the Christian. Community and from Christians who wanted to make sure to keep that sort of clarity, some appropriately, maybe some too soon. But that's also a conversation that comes out of this. You know, I think that we are in an era where.
We need to really heed Jesus' words of stop judging by mere appearances and judge rightly. This is the time to judge rightly. That means being clear thinkers. And I will say that part of that means kind of calling out when there's problems on your own side. And I think this is where Christians, at least conservatives, can say, hey, there's a problem on our side too, especially since the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
I've spent quite a bit of time identifying how, sure, there's crazies on both sides, but there really are patterns of violence and permission structures. of violence that are enabled by the left. And there was that yougov poll that came out. Very soon after Charlie Kirk's assassination, that identified that. Very liberal people and liberal people are much more likely to approve of political violence.
But this guy We don't know a motive yet, but I think it's safe to say he was on the right. You know, he had pro-Trump. Flags and his wife had posted like bring Trump back kind of memes online. And I think that on the right, we need to be able to say, and I'm going to say, you're not, you don't identify as on the right. I do.
Okay, I'm a conservative. I'm on the right. Like, I'm very. comfortable like putting myself in that category. But that means that when there really is political violence committed by somebody who in some way shares something that we agree with.
We need to be able to say, hey. We are also guilty sometimes. And this is an area where I can say somebody that aligns with some ideology or some. Political aim that we share in some way. I'm not saying I'm pro-Trump in every way, you can be pro-Trump.
I am not. But I'm saying like, it's an opportunity for us to judge rightly. And judging rightly means, yes, you want to be able to identify different patterns. But not at the expense of really seeing things clearly.
So I just, I think this is a chance for people who are conservatives to say: look, there are patterns, there are permission structures of violence on the left. That does not mean that there are not problems on our own side that we also need to be aware of.
Well, and that's actually my point. I mean, there's no one who would question the fact that I'm conservative politically. The question is: what's our fundamental identity as people who are believers? And when we say our side, How we define what our side is really, really matters. If the most important thing in our bank, if the most important thing in our defining Vision of reality is politics, then we've been captivated by a different set of rules.
Than the rules that define us in terms of a Christian. Another way to say it is. I'm not Christian, and then also, but I'm really conservative. I happen to be conservative because of the Christian commitments that I have in terms of identity, in terms of what it means to be human, in terms of what's right and wrong. And unfortunately, sometimes we get the cart before the horse on this one.
So, you know, I think that I don't want to not take responsibility or not call out things. It's clear this was a despicable act of violence and it came from a deep-seated hatred, but it's not of Christ. I'll be quick to identify when Christians commit acts of violence because Christians sometimes do that. And when they do it, it's always terrible as well. And it's a misrepresentation of who Christ is.
Well, that certainly kind of touches on some of the other debate raising within the online right, which is conservatism without Christ and conservatism with Christ. Like Christeless conservatism will not get us where we want to go. Conservatism cannot do all of the work.
Well, you can't define what has to be conserved. Yeah. Right. I mean, conservatism is all about conserving. And so, listen, I think it's important to have these defining conversations.
I wish it weren't. awful incidents like this. That spark these defining conversations. As we said earlier, there's the defining conversation about what Mormonism is. And they do not worship the same Jesus Christ.
Jesus was not the brother of Lucifer. And not a mortal. I mean, you know, this is a different religion in many ways. We've often often offer that framework of Add, subtract, multiply, and divide. If you add to Holy Scripture, if you subtract from the From Jesus Christ, in some way, either his deity or exclusivity, if you multiply the requirements of salvation.
and then unnecessarily divide the body of Christ. These are marks of extra Pseudo-Christian religions, and Mormonism certainly fits into that category. Although there are a lot of Mormons who are rethinking that, it's fascinating. We hear from them.
Sometimes, who are saying, Listen, I don't buy into the history of the church as Joseph Smith. You know, it's centered around Joseph Smith. My understanding of Jesus is in a Trinitarian and divine way.
So it's interesting to hear from these folks, but we're talking about Mormonism in general. Oh, look, all this points to the fact we have to have a defining conversation about these things. And we need to be really clear on how we define our own beliefs and our own identity, both as most importantly as Christians, but then also. in in in the wider culture, particularly one that's so politically charged. Yeah, well, you're having some of our uh LDS identifying friends rethinking some of these arguments because they're hearing great content.
You know, they are actually getting honest answers to honest questions. And that makes me want to just briefly turn our attention to my friend Louise Perry, who I just adore. I've been on her podcast a couple of times. She wrote the case against the sexual revolution, and she would consider herself a non-religious. Feminist?
And not of the like militant feminists, but the no, men and women are different. But I really do still think that there was some pretty good function that some of the different waves of feminism provided to women. But she just recently came out in a podcast and said that she's a Christian.
So I just want to read to you her quote. She said, I have since since I wrote the book, I've become a Christian. And now I'm more comfortable making these arguments in theological terms because she didn't make religious arguments in the case against the sexual revolution. She made biological arguments. She made sociological arguments.
She said one of the reasons I ended up becoming a Christian Is Because if it's supernaturally true, You would expect it to be sociologically true. and observing how quite sociologically true it is, It was very persuasive to me.
So what was she talking about? She was looking at what was self-evident about the nature of men and women. The Procreative Act The importance of that lifelong pair bond. That children come from that man and woman, benefit from the man and woman, and that only Christian theology. Reflects the kind of parameters that lead to thriving for men, women, and children.
So, thoughts on that, John? You know, I think a lot of us go into this going, well, if we're going to evangelize, we need to share the gospel. You know, four laws of spirituality, but that's not how Louise Perry came to Christ. She came to Christ by looking at what has been made. What was made was self-evident to her, and it led her to the God who made the things that are self-evident.
I just smiled so big when I saw that video and just thank God. There's been a lot of people praying for her and kind of wondering because. You can't get on the path of truth as hard and fast like she has without eventually getting. To who created that path, you know, whose truth it is. There's a wonderful line in Christian scholarship, which is: all truth is God's truth.
In other words, if you, Eventually, all these kind of ways of seeing what's obvious in the world makes you ask the question: well, who created the world? This way. You know what it reminded me of, Katie? Is in Truth Rising, Chloe Cole's story, because Chloe, of course, Was deceived by one of the great lies of our generation that you can be born in the wrong body. She had second.
Guesses about this after having a double mastectomy at age 16. Reading in a biology textbook as part of her biology class about breastfeeding and realizing, oh no. What have I done? And she came to the truth about who she is. as a woman.
And then eventually also Continued and eventually came to the truth about who made her as a woman and who died for her. Uh Jesus Christ. You know, I guess part of this conversation is I just want to praise God and Looseberry has helped me so much. Her ability to analyze the sexual revolution is unparalleled. She's in that elite group of feminists, really second-guessing where all of this stuff led.
And I just. An amazing story. But I also want to say, we have been told, we have been told for a long time in evangelism. Like, if you go down these paths, if you talk about sexuality stuff, if you're too hard on morality, if you're, you know, if you go into this kind of. Category of absolutes or anything like that, right?
There's been various versions of this anti-apologetic stuff for years. That you're going to get in the way of evangelism. And what people really need to hear is about Jesus, but we forget that God is the God of truth. God is the one who created the world. And the Bible tells us the heavens declare the glory of God.
If the heavens declare the glory of God, the human body definitely declares the glory of God. And I think that is really good news.
So I smiled so big at that, so grateful that God still works in the life of people. And what a great story to hear and welcome. Welcome home, we say, to Louise Perry. Makes me very, very happy. And honestly, grateful for the people that have been doing the Worldview education, you know, like the Golson Fellows, like Summit Ministries, like Worldview Academy.
I mean, all of the people that said we are We're not going to listen to this. Advice. That you're gonna alienate people if you talk quote unquote politics. And I say quote unquote politics because it's not politics, right? The politics have become, the political has become the theological.
Like if it's theological, it belongs with us. And all of politics has become theological. Maybe it always has been. But I'm so grateful for the institutions and the organizations that said, no. No, we'll take Jesus' truth into that as well.
And especially among young people, I mean, you see this craving and this hunger for answers. And it's been terrible that they haven't found it at the church. And sometimes they have to go outside the church to find these answers.
So, may all of us be the kind of witnesses that bring the gospel in the form of whatever question people are asking, even if it's not, you know, Baptist-coded, you know, even if it simply is, I don't know about men running. you know, in a track race against other women. That's where you get to be prepared for an answer for the hope that is in you that manifests in this sort of.
Somewhat political response, which I say somewhat political, but it's not. You know, it's just we need to identify where the opportunities are. And for a long time, some of culture said, hey, you never get to talk about those kinds of things. That's not yours. And the answer is: it's all ours, it all belongs to us.
Well, th at at one level, the you know, the the idea that all this stuff gets called political just tells you The age we're in, in which politics sucks all the air out of the room, and it's just not big enough to handle all these categories. Uh, you know, look, Romans 1 is really clear that what God made screams out to him and reveals that God made it, but also that we're darn good at suppressing that revealed truth, and both of those things are true. And it's great when the beach balls pop up, you know, that we've tried to suppress under the water, and apparently. This is a story of that. And, you know, it's another story for Justin Briarly to tell in his podcast in the UK, right?
The surprising rebirth of belief in God and more things to put into the, is this a revival? question basket that we have going. and a lot of exciting things to pay attention to. I know we should wrap up this conversation, but I just want to say one more thing about it. And that is, you know, the association between conversion and the number of relationships that you have in the religion that you want to convert to, that there's almost sort of a predictive element to, like, show me your friends and I'll show you your future.
And I just love that there are so many. credible. Introspective. earnest, conscientious people that are converting.
So many of them. And I think that because so much of our world these days is for better, for worse, an online world, you see somebody like Ayan Hirsiali or Luis Perry or some of these other people that are really dabbling in Christianity and they feel like you're friends. And it really is going to exert a pull on the, I mean, honestly, Charlie Kirk was probably one of the best examples.
So many people are like, I felt like he was my friend. And so In some ways, a lot of these people that are online figures, Yeah.
Social poll is Into this new world, right? We are like laying that, like paving the way for them to take that step into church or to take that move. into into faith. I pray that her Declaration of Faith, which, you know, just like Ayan, when you guys captured her in Truth Rising, you just look at Louise Perry, give this answer. She can't not smile.
The joy of the Lord is there.
So I just prayed that those ripples would go out far and wide all across the internet wherever her voice reaches. You know, people in positions of power need to be held accountable. Comedy is one of the most effective ways to do that. Tyrants hate mockery. And so, one of the ways of holding them accountable is to make fun of their bad ideas.
That was Seth Dillon of the Babylon Beast. Seth's story is featured in the new documentary film Truth Rising, when he was faced with a crucial decision whether to stand by what's true or to back off of his claim. He made the right decision and God has worked in the wake of that. Focus on the family and the Colson Center joined together to produce Truth Rising, a groundbreaking documentary about the civilizational moment and what it means to be a champion of truth right where God has placed us. Go to truthrising.com slash Colson.
That's truthrising.com/slash Colson. Colson. You can hear Seth's story as well as the story of four other amazing champions of truth in this cultural moment. Again, go to truthrising.com/slash Colson.
Okay, the next thing we wanted to talk about is something that has been called the Mississippi Miracle. And this is this insane turning around in literacy rates and math rates in Mississippi, which is one of the poorest states in the nation. Between 2013 and 2024, so a little more than 10 years, Mississippi fourth grader showed the largest gain in the nation. in math and reading. And even when they adjusted for student demographics, Mississippi was ranked first in the nation.
in fourth grade reading and math. What are we supposed to take from this? I mean, obviously, they made a lot of very specific decisions. The state, the governors, the teachers' unions, they said they're going to invest in training teachers in evidence-based reading. They're going to say we're going to do what works.
A lot of that is like phonics, structured literacy, regular testing. I mean, they were going to do what they could to move kids to a place where they were genuinely competent. But what does this tell us about education and the possibilities of education? And honestly, what we could do with an entire nation. if we had the will to do it.
First of all, it tells us we have to change our jokes. Like I literally just last week. Heard someone make fun of my wife because she's from Mississippi and say, you know, the joke we have in, I think they were from Arkansas, and they said, the joke we have in Arkansas is thank God for Mississippi, because that means we're not lasts and everything. And we're going to have to change that joke because that has been the joke and it's been well earned, you know, for a long time.
So what changed? The next joke we can replace it with is hooked on phonics work for Mississippi. And that really tells you something because what Mississippi did is change how they taught reading. They changed it back to some Tried and proven methods. But also, what they did is prioritize these things, whereas in so many other districts and so many other Places.
They're prioritizing justice causes. They're trying to turn second graders into activists. And they're telling them to read certain things that will make them anti-racist without teaching them the fundamentals. Look, you and I are both huge fans of classical education. Right.
And classical education begins with you have to have the structure in place. You have to have the structure of arguments, the structure of language, the structure of numbers. You know, you have to have the right things in place. And if you look at what Mississippi did, they went back and taught the basics. And from the basics, you can build on.
It's the same thing with coaching, right? You don't start by telling a kid you're coaching in basketball. Try to make as many three-pointers as you can. Right? Because they can't.
And they can't even get it there. What you want them to do is learn the basics, right? Beef. Balance, elbows, eyes, follow-through. That's what it is.
And you get it and tell them how to hold the ball and not make the snake, but keep their wrist cocked. And then all this stuff matters so that as they get stronger and stronger and stronger, now they're going to get hit three-pointers at a high clip. And you can run an offense in order to do that. It's the same thing in any type of learning. There are basics.
There are Shall we say, realities. And you start with those realities. And once people get that, once kids get that, then they can build on. You don't want to tell a kid, right? Be an independent thinker when they're in second grade.
Because as an independent thinker in second grade, they're going to come up with crazy stuff, right? You want them not to come up with crazy stuff when they're in the ninth grade and 10th grade, and especially the 11th grade, where they get in so much trouble, because you want them to have kind of basics of thought, basic rules of reality. This is what language is. This is what numbers are. This is what reality is.
And then they can be creative on the basics. That's the whole way classical education is set up.
Now, did Mississippi go back to classical education? No. What they did is they went back to the structure. And it worked. Last thing it tells you.
Policy matters. And so, you know, for all the people, again, saying Christians should stay out of politics. If Christians believe in reality, we should have policies that reflect reality. What we're not going to have time for in this segment because you and I have talked too long is the amazing, but keep going. I've talked too long on this answer.
I'm giving you the last one. The Kentucky policy, right? Here's a policy about divorce, and it has Dramatically lowered the rate of divorce in Kentucky. You care deeply about that. I care deeply about that.
So that also tells us that policy matters.
So there's a lot loaded in this story.
Well, and policy matters because people matter. And policy affects people. And we are supposed to be the ones that are shepherding and stewarding and protecting and bringing justice for people. And I mean, these two things matter, right? They matter, I would say, especially for kids, you know, when you talk about children's learning.
Yeah, the Kentucky situation. I didn't prep for this, so I may not have the exact answers right at my fingertips, but they just kind of said we're going to mandate. Equal parenthood. We're going to mandate that there's 50-50 custody and something about that drastically dropped divorce rates. that they said it's really important for children to not just spend a weekend with their father.
And so you can say that that meant that the women who tend to initiate more divorces overall, about 69% said, oh, this isn't automatically gonna get me exactly what I want. Maybe I'll work a little harder to keep the marriage together. Or it just threw up some roadblocks where they both said, ah, this might logistically be too challenging. Maybe we should give this another try. But yes.
We need more Christians doing more politics because we need more Christians doing more people caring. And these two stories are good examples of that. And to your point, if we're going to do politics, our priority should be policies over politicians, right? In other words, that's what we what we want to see. We don't put our hope in princes, we don't put our hope in chariots.
But we do it, put it in truth, and truth actually matters. And I hadn't even actually thought when I connected those. Too, both of these are policy questions having to do with kids and what's best for kids. And God bless Mississippi. I think we need to have a party for this.
This is a big, big story, and the Kentucky one is a big story, too. It's super fascinating.
Well, it makes you grateful for the laboratory of democracy. Where different states can do it different ways, and then you can say, hey, that really worked there, we should try it too. Pay attention, Loudoun County. No kidding. We're going to wrap up with something that makes me extremely happy.
Kieran Culkin, who is little brother of Macaulay, I believe, accepted an award. I think some of us might remember his acceptance speech where he's kind of looking at his wife and he's saying, yeah, you know, I won this award a couple of years ago and I told my wife, I won that award. I want a third kid. And then I got the award and I said, hey, where's my third kid? And he said, actually, I want a fourth kid.
That's what I really want. And she goes, please, boy, if you want a fourth kid, you're going to have to win an Oscar. And that was the speech where he said, Hey, honey. When he's holding his Oscar. Remember that time when you said that if I won an Oscar, you would give me another baby.
Well Here I am, O ye of little faith. And he's like, let's go home. And let's make babies.
Okay, so super, super sweet. And again, I think a bit of a resurgence of the we like kids kind of thing. I think we've seen a little more of it, especially at the beginning of the Trump administration with J.D. Vance bringing his kids all around. You've got One of Musk's Fifteen Kids that has made some appearances.
You know, you've got the White House spokeswoman who's regularly seen with her baby. And I like it. I want more kids in public life. I want more people talking about wanting kids in public life.
Well, you actually ever said it. The point is that Kieran Calkin and his wife were actually pregnant again. Like, that was the announcement this week, right?
So that was the reveal this week that we were going to be able to do that. That's the reveal. Yeah, that was great. There they are. Super happy.
And by the way, you are underselling his acting career to say he's the little brother of Macaulay Calkin. His career has so outshined his brothers at this point. This is like, I got to dial in. Yeah. Yeah.
Tons and tons of sitcom roles, a couple of movie roles, but also some pretty successful series like Succession.
Okay, which I'm not recommending for the record. I'm glad that I got a education on beef. And Garen Kulkin today. Two things that I really didn't know anything about.
So yes, we like it. We like the baby bumps. We like celebrities leading the way and talking about how great kids are. We like Taylor Swift getting engaged. We want to see the baby bonus that comes with that, and that it would be multiplied all the way down through the millennials, that fangirl after her.
We want it all.
Okay, stay with us. We're going to be right back and we're going to have a big discussion setting up two different models of evangelism and I want to hear exactly which one John says is orthodox and which one needs to be thrown and kicked to the curb. Hey, John Stone Street here. This is your official invite to join us at the 2026 Colson Center National Conference. It'll be held in Knoxville, Tennessee, May 29th to the 31st.
Again, Knoxville, Tennessee, May 29th to the 31st. The theme this year is you are here. You might remember those large, now largely empty buildings called shopping malls. You had all kinds of stores and you were trying to find the one you were looking for and you had to go to the map. And not only did you need to find this door, you needed to find that yellow arrow or the star that said you are here.
Our culture today changes so fast and at such a profound civilizational level. And that, of course, is because we've abandoned the truth and we're reaping the consequences.
So a conference like this is absolutely necessary to get the lay of the land, to kind of figure out what's happening in culture and at what moment we're really in. If you've ever wondered if your faithfulness and obedience can make a difference in this civilizational moment that we're in, this is the conference for For you.
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That's colsonconference.org. We're back at Breakpoint this week, and we're going to talk about a bit of a debate on how do we engage culture. And there's been conversation, especially among the X's, that would be those on X. About the death of third wayism. And if I could just give you my layperson's description of what third way ism is, it was this.
Mood that pervade a lot of maybe more prominent Christian leaders in the late 90s, the early thousands, and kind of maybe up until 2020. That, you know, we need to have a third way. We're not Republicans, we're not Democrats. You know, it's not elephant, it's donkey, it's lamb. And there's sort of this idea that the two parties, they're not really, they're different, they're opposites, but one is not more correct than the other.
And also, we need to find a third way of talking about this. Just kind of remove ourselves from the political conversation. Don't engage directly. Rather, bring people back to just scripture. 100% of the time, scripture, scripture, scripture.
Now, A lot of people ascribe the third way approach to Timothy Keller, and I'm just going to put my cards on the table. John. This is something you and the select group of listeners should know. I love Timothy Keller. When I had a hard time sleeping, when I had some problems falling asleep and staying asleep about 10 years ago, I realized that there was this little hack that I could do.
And if I turned on Timothy Keller's sermons really, really quietly at the beginning of the night. Then, when I woke up at 2 a.m. or 4 a.m., he would be there speaking to me. And they always calibrated their podcast so well.
So it was always pretty quiet. There wasn't a lot of applause. And everything that he was saying was so interesting, not political. but very insightful biblically. And so the truth is that Timothy Keller is my BFF, okay?
Like, I know his voice. I know his examples better than anyone else because I've like listened to it. And it's this incredible way of like using my time well in the middle of the night.
So there is a bit of Katie that's protective. of Timothy Keller. But also what we saw is A real contrast. Timothy Keller and his approach to politics. in Charlie Kirk.
Charlie Kirk that said You've got questions about transgenderism? I'll answer those questions. You have questions about foreign policy? I'll answer those questions. You've got questions about abortion?
I'll tell you directly. And I will also point back to Christ. And I'll also say you need to live a moral life. But Charlie Kirk didn't shy away from the political questions, he went at them directly.
So where do you fall on this sort of third wayism kind of Charlie Kirk approach? Is there one approach that's better than the other depending on the climate and the culture? Or is one just kind of genuinely better all the time? Yeah, no, it's a great question. And I do think that.
There's so many things that have to be caveated in this conversation in terms of like What were the issues we were dealing with in the 90s? And what are the issues that we were dealing with in the last five years? And, you know, how far away from reality had we gotten? And how much had politics intruded over moral territory? And certainly, you know, Keller was still having a context in which abortion was still alive as both a moral, cultural, political issue.
There also seemed like there was no political way forward in the 90s. You know, I remember we all had embraced a strategy, you know, and honestly, there wasn't a way forward until the Supreme Court changed. And that, of course, was a political reality. And suddenly what wasn't. an option became an option.
And that's just one example of everything that has to be are articulated. Unfortunately, what's happening right now is this is a really important and interesting and essential conversation for Christians to have. About how to best engage and what are both the responsibilities of political engagement and the limits of political engagement, right? In other words, we're going to swing the pendulum way too far if we think that we're going to usher in the kingdom of God on Air Force One. It will not happen.
It will not happen on the robes of the Supreme Court. And yet, who's in the White House really matters and who's in the Supreme Court really matters.
So, how do we actually, it's not a balance, it's how do we have our minds set on what's true and what's real? and and and stay there despite how swirling The issues can be. Unfortunately, a lot of people, I think, are using this as an opportunity to tarnish Tim Keller's legacy. Tim Keller is not perfect. I think he messed up in how he talked about abortion and how he talked about, at least on a political level.
I think that there are You know, testimonies from his church that point to the fact that maybe he didn't address some of these issues as much as he should have. And I think that those are legitimate critiques. And if that's the you know if you I can give you legitimate critiques of Chuck Coulson's ministry and David's throne and everybody but Jesus, certainly Peter and Judas and me and you and everybody else. Keller was an incredible thinker, an incredible theologian, and an incredible apologist. He didn't bat a thousand.
Neither do I. One thing that's happening right now, for example, in this kind of critique of third wayism, which I think, by the way, absolutely needs to be critiqued, no question, particularly because the times have changed so dramatically. is that people are using this to be absolute jerks against other people. They're using it to be absolute jerks and use that in order to build their own platforms. And the goal here isn't the edification of the body of Christ.
It isn't the education of the body of Christ. It isn't the mobilization. of the body of Christ into culture. It's something else completely. And it's not of the Lord.
It's not of love. It's not of. uh something uh that is good And I'll just quote what one of my board members likes to say: a jerk for Jesus is still a jerk. And that's not what we're called to. And part of this conversation, or let me say it differently, Katie.
One way we're going to miss what we need to learn in this conversation is if we have the wrong goal in mind. In other words, a strategy is not wrong because it did not work. A strategy is wrong if it's the wrong strategy. The Bible calls us to a particular way. I had this conversation years ago with another very popular writer and thinker, a guy who's a dear friend.
I love him. And he just, you know, he was critiquing kind of this idea of worldview and worldview engagement. And his argument was if you do that, you're going to lose all the kids because culture is too powerful and all that. I'm like, well, listen, I don't engage culture because I think I'm going to Win culture. I engage culture because the Bible tells me.
That Jesus Christ is Lord of everything and every square inch, according to as Abraham Kuyper put it. And so, therefore, that's how I have to think about my faith: as if Jesus Christ is Lord of every square inch. That means I have to engage. That means I can't withdraw. I can't sit on the sideline and that sort of stuff.
In the same way, I I um There might be ways for me to be temporarily victorious. And not ultimately victorious.
So, what am I after? I've got to be after faithfulness. I've got to be after faithfulness. I think this is a very, very important conversation. What are the limits of winsomeness?
Winsomeness needs to go out of the window when we're trying to protect. You know, little girls from predatory men in locker rooms, right? Winsomeness goes out the window at that point. When some goes out the window when we're trying to protect unborn children, Winsomeness needs to go out the window. Uh very often But that doesn't mean kindness does.
And you know why? Because it's God's kindness that leads us to repentance, and the Bible tells me to be kind. And if someone doesn't listen, the Bible still tells me to be kind, right?
So, in other words, I have to get my categories from scripture. Not pragmatism. And I think that has to inform this conversation as well, which is a great conversation. I actually had this conversation with a dear friend. For an hour, as I was in an airline club this week, I just thought it was so helpful.
He brought up a lot of things I hadn't thought of before. And I thought, man, you know. You know, this is a conversation that needs to be had. And then I got on Twitter, which I shouldn't have. Would you call them the Xers?
Is it because all of us are Gen Xers that are on Twitter now? No, no, it's I think it was a bad name change. Whatever. I just got on there and I thought that's not what's happening. That's not what this conversation needs to happen, and this is not how this conversation should go.
So I was, I was really discouraged, honestly. To see this go forward the way that it did when it's such an interesting and important conversation. Oh, I've got one more thing to bring up, but I've talked a long time, but don't let me forget to bring up this one thing that I need to bring up, but I'll say. What did you think about all that?
So, I agree with that. I would say that. What I've seen in my world, you know, and my world being the world of Seattle, my husband's been in ministry up here for. quite a while in the Northwest for a couple of decades. And I will say that the third way ism very often what was used as an excuse to be a coward.
They're like, well, Jesus is above politics. And what they're saying is, I actually care a lot more about what people think than about speaking the truth and telling the truth. And so, back to your point: like, faithfulness is the point, not success. Not who am I gonna win? Not am I going to be appealing?
But I think also the third way is a. failed in the sense that And this is where I think critiques of Keller probably are a little more merited. I mean, I love the man, but he was willing to speak out on politics when it was critiquing the right. And so it wasn't third way in a lot of ways. But to me, that says that.
I think that even the church, well, maybe even especially church, is hyper-susceptible to the pressures of progressivism, especially when you live in a place like Seattle, where everybody's progressive, everybody around you. And you think, well, these are the people I'm trying to reach.
So obviously, I need to soften my message or tailor my message or curve. curb what I'm going to say in a way because Because that's the people I'm trying to win for Christ. And so I need to somehow make this more palatable for them. But what we've seen with people like Louise Perry is. Nope.
If you're going to soften your message, if you're going to pull some punches for the sake of. winning the progressives, you actually lose an entire Field of evangelism of the people that might be more compelled by some of your Conservative arguments, if you were to engage all of those issues.
So to me, it is. both cowardice and saying, I prefer one kind of convert over another. And so there's problems with that. Perspective, especially up here where I feel like it's war. I mean, you guys are very close in Colorado to being on equal footing when it comes to like a genuine war zone of ideas.
But it's hard for me to be patient with the proponents of third wayism because to me, it's preferring social acceptance over Christ's acceptance. That's how it looks to me.
So, I agree with that. I think a lot of times it was used as cowardice. I also think that there are critics of third wayism that are accusing people of. Cowardice that clearly aren't cowards, you know, in other words, this because they don't agree 100%. And saying everything that they think they should say, or whatever.
I think that that's. That's happening as well. But to your point, I agree. And we talked about this on this program for a long time, that we hit this world of mainstream evangelicalism in America where it was completely okay to punch right, but you always had to coddle left. And I think we saw that in so many different examples.
One thing I wanted to bring up, though, as we kind of really evaluate this new model. That Charlie Kirk brought up, and did Charlie Kirk bring us a new model as a figurehead? And what can we learn? I think there's tons to learn, but I think that there are some really important parts of his story. He said, uh in an interview a few years back that he himself had changed.
And what he had changed is, is he had come out Never denying Christ, never denying he was a Christian, but absolutely burying that, absolutely saying, because he said he was told by everyone. That you can't bring that in. He was told by the GOP, who were worried that social conservative issues made them lose. That you can't bring your faith and all those faith issues, make it about something else. And you remember the slogan of TPUSA from the very beginning was big government stinks, only it used a different word, right?
That was the slogan. And there wasn't a whole lot of faith elements that were part of it. And of course, the left was telling him the same thing, is that if you bring faith into it, we'll dismiss it as a religious argument. And so he was trying to do something else.
Something changed. He got better advice. He became more committed. And to the point where if you watch, and you can, you know, you can kind of see his face age on which video you're seeing, and there's thousands and thousands of videos. But when he looks a little bit older, the thing he's talking about more often than not is Jesus.
or Christianity, or Christians role in the public square. Or why he doesn't believe in gay marriage, or any of these other things that he was told to bury.
So something happened, right? I think also along with that, if you can trace that, I'm not saying it's perfect. I'm not saying he ever didn't say something that he shouldn't have said. Of course, you know, he didn't bat a thousand any more than Keller batted a thousand. If somebody ever reviews the tape of the things that I've said, you're going to find a million people.
Just on this program, you're going to be in trouble, right? No kidding. Jeez. No, but It's a funny thing though, isn't it? Because I think he also got more and more...
skilled at distinguishing between mockers and seekers? That's a phrase that I learned from a Mennonite Christian school headmaster in Ohio. Proverbs makes that distinction. And there's there's times Uh you know that he will Even as he was older, raise his voice, call somebody out, and so on. And usually, if you listen to what they're saying to him, It's because of a false accusation against him or somebody else.
But Increasingly, He didn't take those false accusations seriously. Increasingly, He listened to people. Increasingly, he got better at seeing people that were in front of him and valuing him and telling everyone else to be quiet and respect them.
So that changed too. Right. think of Kirk as a different model, right? I think it's important for us to say which Kirk, you know, which Charlie Kirk are we talking about? At what point?
And how did he get better and better? You know what moved me almost more and it shamed me, honestly, because I used to have this kind of same hunger for learning. His capacity was ridiculous. I didn't have that capacity. But I had a huge hunger for learning and you just get so busy.
But when I figured out, oh, he had a mentor for how to do apologetics on campus.
Okay. friend of mine. He had a theological mentor that he asked questions. He had a Bible study mentor that he asked questions. He had some pastors, right, that he had political mentors, and he took.
What did Dr. Arne, Larry Arne, say at the funeral? He took like 30 Hillsdale courses. Isn't that crazy? He's had like a huge taken one of those Hillstone courses?
Yeah, crazy.
So There was a humble posture. that emerged there. And I think if we're going to say Kirk did something different, he gave us a different model.
Well, let's be really clear on what we mean. He did not bring politics into it. in the same way at the end of his work as he did at the beginning, right? He did see it all connected, and I think that really appealed to young people, you know, who were looking for a foundation for what they believed, and so on. But I think that's an important part of what we mean by this.
The cultural context matters. Look, we were in a different moment. Just Five years ago, we thought we were on the wrong side of that trans train and it was never going to stop. It was just going to run over everything. And it's a different moment, it's a different day.
I also think this, the last thing I'll say about Charlie, and I'd love to hear your thoughts about this, because I had this conversation this week, as I mentioned. as he was just marveling at the hearts and minds that were changed. And we're hearing more and more of that. And certainly, there were a lot changed because of direct control and watching his videos and so on. But far more people have watched his videos after he died than before.
And when we say that someone is called out, That's how the Bible always thinks about those who will end up dying. In kind of the line of duty, as a martyr, as some people would call it, and so on. And you get there and you're like Well You know, his effectiveness. A big part of his a The level of effectiveness we are talking about. Accept.
I don't say the bigger part of it, but a major part of it is the fact that he died. And are we willing to stand for truth all the way, you know? If if that's what it means.
So I think that's part of the conversation as well. Story time, John. You ready for this? My son, who is well, he's a senior this year, junior year last year. And we're in Seattle and we've always done.
Worldview stuff at church.
So, you know, we talk about all of the issues, and it's one of the reasons why we've got a thriving youth group because kids need answers. They know they can get it at our church, Sunday school youth group, all of that kind of stuff.
So, one of my son's friends who has a Muslim background, he immigrated here and families. Muslim, culturally Muslim, some they practice a little bit, but he started watching conservative content online, a lot of Charlie Kirk stuff. And that's why he decided to come to church with my son. Because Conservatism arguments were made, and some of those people started connecting it to Christ and reality, right? This, the What Louise Perry said, you know, if the theological that can't be proved is true and it's lived out in the sociological, which can be proved in experience, and maybe the theological is real, right?
It was a very similar pathway for him.
So, anyway, Charlie Kirk came to the University of Washington this spring and They were like, Hey, I want to go. And I was like, I'll go with you. And at the time, I really thought Charlie Kirk was a political provocateur because I had only seen old Charlie Kirk, right? I'd only seen the videos of young Charlie Kirk, where it was a little more like, oh, Charlie owns the libs kind of stuff.
So that's what I thought I was going to get. No, that is not what I got. Like, we went there and he did like some kind of political spiel, a little bit of kind of topical stuff, what was going on. But he said, ultimately, none of this matters if you do not give your life to Jesus Christ. I mean, like, he made a gospel pitch, and then he would say things like, young men, You are powerful, you are strong, the world needs you, and you need to go home tonight and quit porn and never, ever look at it again.
And Everybody got on their feet and cheered. And I was like. Whoa my gosh, what is going on here? And then he said, Young women, you guys are bright, you're strong, you're young, you're beautiful. You can pursue an education?
None of it is going to fulfill you, like being a wife and mother, and you should prioritize that sooner rather than later. And then everybody got on their feet and cheered. And I was like, what is happening here? And then you get to the QA part where people come up to the mic, he gives them satisfying answers to honest questions. And very often it comes back to, That's not a political problem, that's a spiritual problem.
You've got a God-shaped hole in your heart. You're not going to be able to fix that through material things. You're going to fix them through spiritual things. And I mean, like, I honestly was blown away. I was like, what a crazy, incredible, beautiful, effective fusion.
Of Politics And Spiritual truths.
So I'm really grateful, you know, there's a young man at our church today. Because Charlie Kirk had a part of bringing him to us. And certainly, all of the, especially boys in the youth group, which is dominantly boys today, are more serious about their faith because of Charlie, and now that he has. Died for what he believed, which he did, they have been fueled to go even harder, even bigger, even bolder, even stronger. And they have all recognized that there's a connection between that.
and getting more serious about God. I'm I'm so thankful, so thankful that he did. that he didn't third way his way. Into his platform. But and he grew.
I mean, and that's the thing that I wanted to really. He changed, he learned, he developed. I mean, he was doing it on the fly. It's tough to build an airplane when it's in the air, but. He was kind of doing that.
I mean, he was flying high pretty quick, but man, he got better at it and more committed to what's true. And that's why I think first way, second way, third way, and I don't know what counts as the first or second way. We just know what's the third way. In this conversation. But I think that we could go back.
What is true? What does it mean to be a person of hope? What does it mean to be a person? Who lives? No matter what the call and and then when we apply it to the cultural setting, it's going to look a little bit differently.
maybe a lot differently, you know, as in this case. And we're going to critique things Fr from these two guys. There's other people we should probably bring up and talk about as well, but it's an interesting conversation and a good one. By the way, I think it's also one that, as we're running out of time here, I think we had some really interesting questions. A lot of them were Charlie Kirkish sorts of questions, although.
Uh some of them uh We're not.
So I wanted to take a couple audience questions before we go. Can we do that? Yep, totally. One person wrote in and they wanted the specific poll that was referenced that you and Maria had talked about last week. Talking about the number of people on the left who think that violence is acceptable against people they disagree with politically, and the number of people on the right who think that.
And that it's not equal. But again, like we talked about, that does not mean that it does not exist on the right. It does. But that specific poll was a YouGov poll that they republished on September 12th.
So if you look that up, that's where you're going to see the number breakdown. Yeah, and it's been cited a number of times. It's a good question because it's something that I think surprised a lot of people that you could actually find that sort of difference in a poll and you could. To be fair, this was a question that emerged in a really long email or message to us in which There was also a lot of other questions, and I just want to acknowledge that this, I believe it was a woman who was writing in and challenging our take on. Uh Jimmy Cammell.
And basically saying that, you know, listen, freedom of speech.
Well, there were a number of aspects to it. And I think we addressed Most of them. I think the claim we made was that there were a lot of people that were celebrating Charlie Kirk's death. And Jimmy Kimmel, I did not say that Jimmy Kimmel was one of them. Jimmy Kimmel was actually one who said that Implied very strongly in a position of influence that the shooter was MAGA.
Which turned out to be not true. In fact, it was pretty obvious. provable that it there wasn't a problem. When he said it, it was absolutely obvious. Yeah.
And that's the point. And then the deeper point that I think many people have made is that freedom of speech is one thing. Uh because you have freedom to say that, you don't have freedom to say it and then not have your private employer fire you for saying it or set you on the side. And honestly, they decided ABC decided to turn back around and put them back on the air.
So I don't think that there was anything here that was violating. I don't think it was a cancel culture story or situation. Appreciated the email. But I did want to respond to that one question. It's the YouGov poll, as you said.
What day was it republished, did you say? September 12th is the one that I would go back to. It's a pretty detailed article when you find it on the yougov, today.ugov.com website. Really fascinating, actually, when you ask. Person that wrote in and said they really appreciate the segment, especially again, talking about Charlie Kirk and the But they said that.
They can't help but feel like we've made excuses for Charlie Kirk's behavior. For example, calling somebody an idiot, idiot. Saying that they don't have the brain power, that they're stupid, that they feel like that is still disrespectful. The person that wrote in said they can't find anywhere. where Charlie Kirk offered an apology or asked forgiveness.
They said, obviously, he wasn't perfect, and God used him just like King David was a great example of a godly man who also sinned. But David did not continue to have affairs or commit murder after Nathan confronted him. And here's the crux of the concern. I can't shake the feeling that Charlie has been idolized. by the Christian conservative community and used as a pawn to gain power.
Chuck Coulson never called people's names. He did wonderful work with prisoners. Yet when he died, it was barely mentioned in the news.
Well, there's a lot there. I think, first of all, Chuck Colson's death was mentioned in the news. It was mentioned pretty widely in the news and it was covered. But it wasn't as big as Charlie Kirk, and that has something to do with the moment that we're in. It also has something to do with Charlie Kirk was young.
He was. mm you know, murdered while he was actually doing what it was that he was doing. And Chuck Colson was, by the way, he also died. He was not murdered. That makes a difference.
He died as he was giving or he collapsed as he was giving his last speech and then was in the hospital for about a month. But there was an awful lot of press coverage there.
So I don't think that's necessarily comparing apples and oranges. Have some people made an idol of Charlie Kirk? Yes. That's because people make an idol of everyone. People make an idol of Chuck Olson still.
I hear from them, they tell me. God loves you, and here's what Chuck Colson would have wanted you to do. I hear from those people an awful lot.
So, yeah, that's always a temptation. And I think it's because humans are idol-making factories, as John Calvin once, I think, put it. We just have a tendency to do that. In terms of what he said and calling people idiots and so on, I do think that there was serious growth. and how he approached things from early on until later, I think that A lot of the statements that he has been accused of saying as evidence have been taken out of context.
posted a pretty extensive review of that from Thaddeus Williams. This past week. But that doesn't mean he never said anything mean. He did. I mean, that's clear.
It doesn't mean he never said anything wrong. When you say that many words, you do it. Should he have asked forgiveness for some things? I'm sure. There's all kinds of things I should ask for forgiveness for as well.
I think that maybe the opposite temptation of idolizing him is basically expecting him to be perfect. And that's not a legitimate approach either. Question is: can we learn? And I am learning most from Charlie Kirk. By how he learned, his commitment to get better and better and better at what he did and become more excellent at it.
God bless him, you know, for that. John. I need some. Real hard answer and direct answer. Is it ever okay to call somebody an idiot?
What if they're being an idiot? Are you allowed to say that as a Christian? Hey, I'd love to paraphrase that quote earlier that a jerk for Jesus is still a jerk by saying an idiot for Jesus is still an idiot. Dumb for Jesus is still dumb. If it's really accurate, like if somebody is being idiotic, is it okay to say stop being an idiot?
Is that okay? I think there's a huge difference. Between calling someone an idiot and saying you're being idiotic. Have I violated that? Absolutely.
My wife, who may be listening, is probably going to remind me of a moment from last year's basketball season. Where something like that may have happened. And should I confess it before the Lord? Yes, I'm sure I should. And once I feel better about the guy that I risk referring to, maybe I will.
No, I'm just kidding. I have confessed it. Yeah, I mean listen There are these kind of clear statements in the Bible. You know, you call someone a fool. And then, this is what's in store for you.
And then the Bible turns around and says, the fool is the one who says in his heart, there is no God. Mm-hmm.
So, I think there is a difference between how we talk to others and when we dehumanize them, which we tend to do, and we don't do it any. More commonly than with our words. That, yeah, we shouldn't do it. It's not something that we should excuse from ourselves. Is calling somebody a whitewashed tomb, does that count as dehumanizing?
That's different than an idiot, though, isn't it?
Well, is it dehumanizing, right? Or is it descriptive? Like, obviously, Don, I'm wrestling with very practical questions here and I need answers so that I can be. I am very, very, you know, I favor those passages of scripture when there is clear and upfront trash talking, you know, like Elijah to the prophets of Baal. But see, that has more to do with my interest in sports than my interest as a culture warrior.
Throughout Scripture, Where, if you look at the prophets of God and others who do it publicly when there's a public consequence to it, that's different than the guy who cuts you off in traffic and has only inconvenienced you. That's different than maybe the person whose policy is. leading to the deaths of millions of unborn children. You know, that that would have to be, you know, taken into consideration? Public rebuke is something that is absolutely a part of the Christian tradition.
One of the differences though is that is that if you're Elijah and you're rebuking Ahab and Jezebel publicly. You've done it privately as well. You've done it to their face. You're not hiding behind. A screen and social media has made us jerks?
And it somehow has made us think it's okay for me to violate. you know, the command to love my neighbor. And then I'll justify it by saying I'm like Jesus who called people whitewashed tombs. It just seems to me to be a huge leap in logic a lot of times, at least as I've seen it play out.
So is that a sufficient non-answer to your question?
Well, I think what I've heard you say is if I want to call somebody a cow of Bashan, I need to do it to their face. I think most of the time you need to do it. I would recommend there is a big, big difference between saying what you're doing is not wise, what you're doing is foolish, what you're doing is evil. Uh versus saying you're an idiot, but that's that seems to be the Helpful? Noted we're having so many great conversations on this program that the whole church needs to have, and we can have them without being definitive at all.
Aren't we convenient? You get a whole nother flavor with me. I mean, Maria doesn't need to ask these kinds of questions. I, on the other hand, need very explicit instruction, obviously. All right, we're going to move into our recommendation time.
John, give us your recs. I just have one recommendation, which is big, especially in light of the Louise Perry conversion, which is really wonderful. Her book. The End of the Sexual Revolution. I think that's the title of it, right?
The End of the Sexual Revolution. It's just fab. Anyway, just look up Louis Perry. Her articles are worth the read.
So two thumbs up. Welcome to the family. Uh, great to have you, and then also truth rising because she's an example of one of these truth tellers, like Chloe, who came to truth that's publicly available because of the way God made the world and then became. Aware of the God who made the world. And I just think that we need to take this really seriously as an opportunity that we have.
To point people. The heavens declare the glory of God, which means the human body does, which means moral norms do, which means the sunset does, which means scientific discovery does. Let's not be scared of this stuff. Let's run into culture and start using it to point people to God. Good, good.
Case against the sexual revolution in case you case against the sexual revolution. Very, very good.
So I will just say, recommend good time to cancel Netflix. There's been some content that has re-emerged. Libs of TikTok. Doing heroic work by digging up all of these things that there's a real good chance your kids are watching that you have no idea that they're watching. But show after show after show for preschoolers and seven-year-olds and teenagers.
Just promoting ideologies that are going to ultimately harm their bodies and harm society.
So, either cancel Netflix or make sure that you are watching every single thing with your kids. Never hand them a tablet with headphones. Anything that you're watching with them, you guys watch together and then you discuss. And if you don't, Go ahead and cancel that Netflix subscription today. Their stock is down 45 points, I hear, which is about 4%, which isn't a bad dip for a week for some activists.
but I think it can go lower.
So maybe that's the recommendation is drive Netflix. Stock price lower. There you go.
Well, thanks for being with us. We will see you right here next week at Breakpoint this week.
