TNG with Dr. Erwin Lutzer

Best-selling author, speaker, and advocate for Christian apologetics, Dr. Alex McFarland.

Best-selling author and apologist, Dylan Burrows. Together, bringing you truth. For a new generation, this is TNG Radio. In 1908, G.K. Chesterton famously said, as much as we need to win the lost to Christianity, more and more increasingly we need to win the Christians to Christianity. With that thought, I welcome you to today's edition of TNG Radio. Alex McFarland here with Dylan Burrows. Dylan, when I read that quote by Chesterton that we need to win the Christians to Christianity, if he were to see the church landscape of 2018, I think he would probably be even more concerned than he was in 1908.

Wouldn't you agree? Well, certainly his words have been prophetic and some have talked about the number of believers or so-called believers in the pews of our church each Sunday that need the gospel just as much as those outside the walls of the church. So this is a very timely message and we're glad to be here today with Dr. Erwin Lutzer. Alex, you do not want to miss the next few minutes of this radio program because we have on the line truly one of the great Christian leaders of our lifetime. Dr. Erwin Lutzer of course famously pastored Moody Church for more than three decades, and his radio show Running to Win has touched countless millions of lives. But I first learned of him, oh I don't know, two decades plus ago as an author, and his books have touched so many lives. He is a scholar, a pastor, an evangelist, but I would say also a very, very astute observer of trends. And Dr. Lutzer has a brand new book out called The Church in Babylon, Heeding the Call to be Light in the Darkness.

It's published by Moody. It is a brand new book that I would urge everybody listening to read. And what an honor to have him on the line right now. And Dr. Lutzer, thank you for carving out some time to be with us on TNG Radio. Hey, it's my delight to be able to do that and to interact with the two of you, and especially as we think about helping our people to navigate the darkness. You know, I wrote this book to try to help us see what does faithfulness look like in a nation that has forgotten God. You know, we are not called to success—Jeremiah wasn't—but he was called to faithfulness, and that's what we're called to. And you know, while I'm at it, I might say that if I can put it in a single sentence, I wrote this book to try to help us to see what faithfulness looks like in a nation that believes our light is darkness.

That's our challenge. Dr. Lutzer, when you began to pastor Moody Church in Chicago, and you know, really I guess it was probably, you know, in the mid-80s that you, you know, were put on the national stage, would you have ever thought the culture, especially the evangelical culture, would be where it is today in America? And I want your response to kind of the trajectory we've been on, and if you had one prayer for the future of the Church in America, what would that be?

Well, those are really two separate questions, Alex, but I'll try to answer them. Question number one, I'd have never dreamed when I became the pastor in 1980, actually, that someday we would see our White House arrayed in rainbow colors to celebrate the Supreme Court decision regarding same-sex marriage. That was just totally off the radar way back then.

A lot of other things were also off the radar. You know, the whole idea of the seeker-sensitive Church was just coming into its own. So you have since that time the sexual revolution and the bitter fruit of that, to which we must minister as a Church, you also have the technological revolution. So in answer to your second question, this trajectory has been fueled by the media, first of all, of course, television, but now cell phones and the addiction that there is to technology is just overwhelming, and it's very difficult to get the attention of people anymore.

You know, you can just see it in airports and everywhere else, people are bumping into each other because they're not watching where they're going, they are on their cell phones doing technology. The other thing that has really changed is the attitude toward Christians. In Israel, in Babylon, the belief was that Marduk, the Babylonian god, won. After all, he came and took the city of Jerusalem, took 10,000 Jews with him to Babylon, took the vessels of the temple, and that's where we are. The society tells us that our God has lost, and Christians are embarrassed to be lost, to be identified with a Christian god. So I pray that my book will invigorate the Church and help it to be revitalized. Darrell Bock You know, you mentioned technology, and that really is as helpful as it can be.

It really has turned masses of people into almost zombies as everybody's looking at a screen or playing with a mobile device. We know the Holy Spirit is powerful. God has all power. But Dr. Lutzer, I've just got to ask, do you still think it's possible to have a sweeping spiritual awakening in a culture where everybody is so informed by the Internet, tied to their devices? Can God still break through a culture that is absolutely addicted to technology? Dr. Lutzer Well, yes, of course God can break through. But you know, Alex, the simple fact is this, that it's not going to happen because we have a great evangelist like Billy Graham. Even Billy lived at a time when this nation still had a Christ consciousness. What it's going to take is all of the people listening today, wherever God has planted them, to become a solid witness for Christ, to lay aside the noise, to live for Jesus, and not be ashamed of the faith.

You know, this fall, Rebecca and I have two grandsons that are entering college. I'm not so much afraid that they'll be talked out of their faith. I'm much more afraid that they'll be mocked out of their faith, that they will be shamed because of their belief. So what we have to do, Alex, is what you're doing, the whole apologetics task. That's one thing. The other thing is our churches have to have a whole new standard of holiness. They need to recognize what is happening. One of the things here at Moody Church is I did not pretend that the problems were in the world without recognizing that they were also within the church. I think this is so critical for pastors. But at the same time, you know, what will it take? It's going to take something that's widespread, something that takes personal sacrifice, and the awakening of the average believer to be willing to share their faith and live with the consequences. Those are great words, Dr. Lutzer.

And we are here with Dr. Erwin Lutzer talking about the church in Babylon. Stick with us. We'll be right back after this break. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back.

We'll be right back. Dr. Lutzer has covered questions like this. How do we love, lead, and serve with Christ's heart and mind in today's Babylon? What are the five false gospels in our churches and how do we stay true to our Christian witness? How do we respond to transgenderism and Muslim immigration with biblical truth and compassion?

Dr. Lutzer, I want to thank you again for making time to be with us. Let me ask you this as we continue the conversation. The church in Babylon, what do you mean by the title, the church in Babylon? Well, when I look back at the Old Testament, I don't really see any good parallels between Israel and the church, because we're in a different era. God worked directly, and you know, Elijah was able to kill the false prophets. Well, we don't do that today.

We just see them on television, and people are deceived by them. But the best example of the church in the Old Testament is when Israel was in Babylon, and they had to meet God on enemy territory. They had to learn to live faithfully as a minority in the midst of a majority pagan culture, and that's where we are at. So you begin to think about God's instruction to them how they should do that. You also think of a man like Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who were willing to compromise surprisingly.

I mean, just think about this for a moment. They were giving advice to a king, Nebuchadnezzar, whose armies were so evil that they were throwing Jewish babies against rocks when they captured Jerusalem, and now they wanted to make Nebuchadnezzar a success. So he put them through three years of training, they'd have been indoctrinated in Babylonian culture and gods and ways, and yet they did draw a line in the sand. They said, this much we can do, but when you put up that image, we will not bow, even if it's the fiery furnace. And this is so exciting, because this is the best expression of faith, I think, anywhere in the Bible.

They said to the king, we believe that our God is able to deliver us, but if he doesn't, we will not swerve in our allegiance to the living God. And everyone listening today needs to say, this is our line in the sand. And you have to draw that line, you have to stay there.

One quick example. Here in Chicago, a school teacher told me that he was told, it is not enough for you to simply tolerate same-sex marriage. If you don't celebrate it, you might lose your job. Well, that for him is a line in the sand. Is he willing to lose his job because he cannot celebrate what God has condemned? Dr. Darrell Bock You know, in Daniel chapter 6, the story of Daniel in the lion's den, when Daniel prayed, it said that he opened his windows, and he was willing to really maintain a public witness, even knowing there would be repercussions.

Nowadays, for Christians to stand for traditional marriage, objective morality, the exclusivity of salvation through Jesus alone, I mean, virtually any of the core truths of biblical Christianity is going to put you at odds with the prevalent mind of the culture nowadays. How do we get that courage, Dr. Lutzer, how do we get that conviction and that bravery that will embolden us to stand strong, knowing there will be repercussions? Dr. Lutzer Inviting Jesus back into our churches. And we think we're doing well, like the church at Laodicea did. Jesus said, you're doing very poorly. And until we get Christ's perspective, we are too easily satisfied. And so, I believe very deeply, you know, could I just say this about the book that we're talking about?

I struggled, you know, with it over a period of years, actually, writing bits and pieces, and then I had a bright idea. I gave it to Jesus. And I said, Jesus, every morning when I woke up, what would you like to say to your church? That's why I believe so deeply in this book, The Church in Babylon. That's why I identify false gospels, for example, within the church. And it covers a lot of territory regarding the issues that the church faces today. And if I might say this, if people who are interested, they might be interested in getting the book, I'm going to give them a website they can go to.

It's very simple. It's mcmauthor.com. MCM stands for Moody Church Media. So, and it's all one word, of course, mcmauthor.com. And there they can be given information as to how the book can be theirs, because I have a burden to get this book into the hands of as many people as possible. Amen.

Well, we want it to get into the hands of as many people as possible. For those just tuning in, we're talking with Erwin Lutzer, the author of The Church in Babylon, Heeding the Call to be Light in the Darkness. And folks, let me just say, this book covers so much ground. There is so much rich material, brand new research in here that I've not seen anywhere else.

And Dr. Lutzer, I want to commend you for such a great work, and I want to keep talking about this. For a moment, let's talk about desperation, because you talked about the Church not being desperate yet. I mean, 9-11, Supreme Court decisions, just the unraveling of our culture. If we're not desperate yet, pray tell what might make us desperate. Well, you know, I asked a pastor of a megachurch whether or not they had a prayer meeting in their church yet, and he said no, but there are women and others, you know, who do have small prayer groups, and they pray in various contexts and so forth. So I said, with a smile on my face, what would have to happen if your church got desperate enough to actually, sincerely pour out their hearts to God and pray together?

And he really didn't give me an answer. But your question is so spot on. In other words, what is it going to take? How much lower do we have to go before people realize that we are in dire situations? And the thing that the church in Laodicea didn't realize, you know, it says we are increased with goods and in need of nothing, and you do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked. So what we need to do, Alex, among many other things, is to pray that God will reveal to pastors and churches what they are really like as far as Jesus Christ's evaluation and not simply our own evaluation of ourselves, which is so obviously wrong. We're here talking to Dr. Erwin Lutzer about his new book, The Church in Babylon.

Stick with us, and when we return, we'll be talking about the issue of immigration. What does the Bible say about that right after the break? Dr. Erwin Lutzer, The Church in Babylon. Dr. Erwin Lutzer, The Church in Babylon. Dr. Erwin Lutzer, The Church in Babylon.

This is Dylan Burrows with Alex McFarland. I'm here talking with Dr. Erwin Lutzer about The Church in Babylon. We've discussed many topics already, but as we begin this last segment with you, Dr. Lutzer, we want to talk about this controversial issue of immigration in America. It's interesting how much of a controversy this has become, even among Christians. Tell us a little bit about what your book says on this topic.

Well, you know, I wrote this chapter with a great deal of conviction for two reasons. First of all, I isolate and explain to people what immigration means to Muslims. Now, most Muslims, of course, live under our Constitution and so forth, but those who are really committed to Islam see immigration as a form of jihad. In fact, the Muslim calendar does not go back to the death of Mohammed or the birth of Mohammed.

It goes to when he migrated from Medina to Mecca and the migration becomes a very important part of spreading Islam. But that being said, the real thrust of the chapter is to help Christians to understand this. So often I hear well-meaning pastors and others say what, in my opinion, is very foolish. They want to take the morality by which the Church operates and they want to use it as a template for national policy.

And those two things are entirely different. I heard a pastor say, well, the Gospel says whosoever will may come and so, you know, America should open its borders, whosoever will may come. From my heart I say this, the Gospel says whosoever will may come. The Church says that, but the state does not. And in the Bible, the symbol of the state is the sword and the symbol of the Church is the cross. And that's why I give in my book several examples of churches who work with immigrants and anyone. You know, it's the story of the Good Samaritan. You don't ask, you know, now where are you from?

Are you here legally? Hey, he has a need and you need it. But when it comes to the state, it's the state's responsibility to keep order. You cannot run a state based on compassion.

Whenever you can be compassionate, fine. But that can't be a national policy. And, you know, there are evangelicals who say things like, well, Jesus was an immigrant.

You know, he and his parents, they went down to Egypt. Are you telling me that that's supposed to be a picture of a nation's immigration policy based on something like that or even the Old Testament where people were invited into Israel and they were expected to convert, by the way, to accept Israel's God, that was an entirely different era, that somehow all of that is applicable? And unless we keep these two things distinct, we are going to be saying some very foolish things. There's nothing in the New Testament that would make us say that a nation does not have the right to control who comes into its borders.

Of course it does. And America, I point this out, has always had a high bar. You know, you go to Ellis Island and I discuss there the ramifications and how there were people who came to this country and because they were unhealthy and believed to have disease, they turned around and went to Europe and sometimes left part of their family here.

So there's so much oftentimes because of media hype. Well, it is. And I want to say, Dr. Lutzer, I love your illustration about Ellis Island and the facts that you document, the 29 questions that were asked and how, as you say, America at one time had had, quote, a high bar for entry. Isn't it amazing how so many evangelicals when it comes to the notion of open borders and supposedly Christian compassion mandates that we don't have any protocols, they're just not really thinking, are they? They aren't.

And you know, they say to themselves that they are more compassionate. Well, yes, when people break rules, they often are separated from their children. Obviously our hearts hurt for the people at the border with the children who are separated from their parents.

But I've been in Cook County Jail and I noticed that children are separated from their parents. In other words, we cannot leave. Put it this way, those of us who believe in strong borders, we are often vilified as racists and haters and all those other things. And I say, no, it's just that Europe is teaching us and we should all know that it may seem to be compassionate to have open borders.

But the long-term effects in so many different areas can be disastrous. So the point is that, in my opinion, let's not take the mandate for the church and apply it to the state. The sword is different than the cross. Well said, Dr. Lutzer. And we're talking with Dr. Erwin Lutzer about his new book, The Church in Babylon. You can pick up a copy right now at mcmoffer.com.

That's mcmoffer.com. As we wrap up our last segment together, Dr. Lutzer, I want to talk a little bit about the hope that you share in this book. Your final chapter mentions the church that will survive Babylon prevailing in a hostile culture. Now many of us would agree with you, Dr. Lutzer, that we are in difficult times.

Our culture is upside down. What are some of the hopeful things that you share in this final chapter of your book? Well there are certain seminal elements that will survive Babylon. One is where there's an emphasis on people and not just buildings, and I give illustrations of that. Where there's an emphasis on the preaching of the word of God.

Where there is indeed strong community. Where we not only teach pastors and teach our young people, but actually train them in a way so that they can stand against the culture, and that's a whole different thing. And where we are committed to prayer, we're committed to a godly lifestyle, but a godly lifestyle that engages culture redemptively and walks the line that on one side, yes, we love, but we don't use the word love and inclusion and so forth to be defined in ways that are unbiblical.

Dylan, that's why that chapter entitled The Five False Gospels in the Evangelical Church is so important, because there I show how we capitulate and we think we're doing one another a favor, and actually we are leaving the truth behind. Dr. Lutzer, I want to thank you so much for your great service to the Kingdom. Thank you for being on the show today, and we hope to talk with you again very soon. Thanks for listening to TNG Radio, and we look forward to being with you next time. See you next time. See you next time.