Interview with Dan Stanley

Best-selling author, speaker, and advocate for Christian apologetics, Dr. Alex McFarland.

Best-selling author and apologist, Dylan Burroughs. Together bringing you truth. For a new generation, this is TNG Radio.

In Matthew 16, verse 18, Jesus said, I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. With that verse, I welcome you to TNG Radio. Alex McFarland here. And I'm so excited for the person that I want to introduce you to. He's Dan Stanley, Dr. Dan Stanley, author of a great book, Transforming Growth, God's Design for Personal and Church Growth.

But when I think of Dan Stanley, I do think of that incredible promise. I mean, it's a promise from the lips of Jesus that he will build the church. And while there's carnality and deadness within the body of Christ sometimes, there are threats from without, persecution and the darkness of the world at times. The fact is, God is on his throne. He is the head of the body. He is the Lord of the church. He is the risen Savior. And in spite of the trajectory of the world and even the disappointments and failures of those who name the name of Christ at times, the church triumphant will prevail. And Dan Stanley is the senior pastor of Rockfish Church.

I've mentioned on this show, Dan, you probably don't know it, but a number of times I've referenced Rockfish because traveling, I guess I average 30 states a year. I'm in a lot of churches. I love the church.

Rural, urban, east coast, west coast, midwest, I've been there. But one of the really exemplary churches in our nation, not only in terms of just their spirit, their outreach, the facilities, but the vision. And we're going to hear from the man who's got that vision and has been leading and in Fayetteville and really central North Carolina and the mid-Atlantic region, has been a distinguished leader for a lot of years, is Dan Stanley. He is the founder of International Growth Institute. He has a Ph.D. in counseling, Christian counseling, psychology, and church growth. He's a marriage and family therapist.

And on and on I could go. He's also the author of Transforming Growth, about spiritual growth personally and in the church. But I'll tell you this, he's a colleague and a friend, and somebody for whom I'm most grateful for being our guest today on TNG Radio. Dan, it's good to see you again, and welcome back. Thanks for making time for us.

Well, I really appreciate being here, and really thank you for those kind words. It makes me sound kind of bigger than I am, and I think one of the, I guess my heart cry is this, that if we do build the church, the gates of hell won't prevail. No matter what happens to me, no matter what happens to any one person, the church should grow on.

I mean, it should go and it should thrive. Otherwise, we didn't build it with his plan. We're building it not with the Holy Spirit, we're building it with some man's name or something like that. So that's kind of my heart. My heart is, let's make the name of Jesus spectacular.

Let's make it as big as we can. And it's Jesus who builds the church. Absolutely. You know, we might be spectators and, to a degree, participants, and we're walking with the Savior along the journey, but he builds the church. That's the great news anyway, isn't it? Right.

Yes, I think so. And I believe that Christians should stand out. I mean, we should be the ones that stand out in the crowd of all the distractions that are going on and all the verbiage and all the stuff you see.

We should be standing out. We should be able to crush evil. Matter of fact, Jesus tells us, you know, in the end, his kingdom will rule and reign completely, and God will soon crush Satan under our feet. Amen.

We should be victorious. You know, you remind me of Genesis 3.15, where it says, and this is often called the protoevangelium, the first gospel, that the seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent. And that's a reference to the virgin birth that, you know, kids were often called the seed of the man, but the child born of Mary would crush the head of the serpent. That's Jesus. But you're saying that one day the serpent's head will be crushed under the feet of the believer.

That's what it says. And the important thing to note in that, the Bible says it pleased God to crush his son to pay the price for us to be adopted into his family, that we would be victorious and crush Satan's head under our feet. And he does it through the church. He is the head, but he uses us the body to crush the enemy. Dan, I remember as a young believer, I'm 21, I had accepted Christ, I'm reading through the Bible, and I came to that Isaiah 53 passage you mentioned, that it said, Yet it pleased the Father to bruise him. Okay, Christ was rejected, he was falsely accused, he was arrested, beaten, crown of thorns, nailed to a cross. The Son of God, the precious Son of God was subjected to unimaginable pain and suffering. Why would that have pleased the Father? I believe the result on the tail end side, the cost that was paid brought about what God's always wanted from the very beginning.

He didn't need us, he wanted us. The fact that the Father wanted children, that's what he's always wanted. He gave his only begotten, that he might receive many sons and daughters into his kingdom through adoption, through the process of the gospel, through being born again, through the blood that was paid at the cross. That's the beauty of the gospel. And matter of fact, the gospel is the key to everything in life. Matter of fact, the book that I wrote has to do with this idea that it is the gospel which is the power of God for not information transfer, but actually transformation of a human heart.

Because in church we can transfer a lot of information, but until hearts are transformed, our power is not seen clearly in the world, and that's my heart. Speaking of transformation, isn't it fair to say that a change in outward behavior has to first be precipitated by a change on the inside? The reason I ask that, I'm counseling a family this week, and they've got an adult son who's gotten in trouble with the law for drugs for the umpteenth time. And I mean, we've been watching a kid destroy his future by habitual not only destroying himself, but breaking the law.

And his parents are crying out to me, is there anything that can make our son change? I believe one step further. The Bible teaches us in 1 Corinthians 13 that unless we do what we do because of the love of Christ, because of the love of God, it means absolutely nothing. Even the good stuff, not alone the bad stuff. So the power of letting the love of Christ control us internally from the inside out. If the love of Christ could control us, then our behavior will show exactly what God wants us to do. But just the behavior in and of itself?

He says it's useless. Even if you prophesy, even if you speak with all the tongues, all knowledge, you have not love, you're nothing, you're a noisy gong. So even the good stuff, let alone the bad stuff, so the key is always heart transformation, transplant. It's always about being born of a new kingdom. How can people find Dan Stanley and Rockfish Church?

Very simple. rockfishchurch.com Rockfish Church is awesome. Stay tuned to TNG Radio with author, pastor, leader Dan Stanley after this break. Thank you so much for joining us today.

We'll be getting started in just a moment. First Peter 3.15 tells us to be ready always to give an answer for the hope we have. We're instructed to be prepared to defend our faith. This is Alex McFarland for the Life Answers Teams, students we train at North Greenville University, a leading Christian college in South Carolina. The Life Answers Teams are made up of students who will inspire and equip your congregation. These apologetics teams we train speak in churches to youth groups and train Christians of all ages to address key issues of our times from a biblical perspective. Like, is there a God? Is the Bible true?

What about gender and moral issues? Call me at 864-977-2008 and we will arrange for the Life Answers Team to come to your church and give a presentation that will benefit your people for years to come. 864-977-2008 and always be ready. The love of God is greater far than tunnel pit can ever tell. It goes beyond the highest star and reaches to the lowest head. Welcome back to TNG Radio. Alex McFarland here. We're in a conversation with Dan Stanley. He's the author of Transforming Growth, God's Design for Personal and Church Growth. And, hey Dan, before we continue our conversation, where can people find this book? You can actually access it from rockfishchurch.com or go directly to the website internationalgrowthinstitute.com.

Also, you can go to Amazon and punch in Dan Stanley or Transforming Growth and pick it up there. You know, one of the areas where God has gifted you is in leadership. There's the old saying, it's been attributed to a lot of people, everything rises or falls on leadership.

And I think everybody can see the effects of an absence of leadership. I've got to ask you this. How did God make you a leader?

Wow, we're talking about a lot of history here, Alex. And primarily, I didn't grow up in church. And I came to know Christ when I was about 19 working in a factory, International Harvester, Indianapolis, Indiana. But I will say there's – What was that home for you, the Midwest?

Indianapolis, correct. I think, for me, the majority of my Christian maturity happened absolutely after salvation experience because you walk through this thing called Christianity and you kind of get this idea that, well, I'm going to heaven now. I'm going to church. I read my Bible. I do all these things.

Everything should work. And then you have a disruption in your life. And studying psychology, I understand it to be a cognitive dissonance-type problem. But in my own heart, it was sin, just sin. And so I believe that a follower can be following Jesus and try and do the right thing, but there's a lesson to be learned that God sometimes has to take you all the way to the bottom. And I went to the bottom, got into alcohol, became an alcoholic.

Problems in the past started surfacing, had to deal with those things. And it wasn't until – literally, I had a gun to my head, literally, and I was going to end it. And the Lord's presence entered that room that day, and he said these words to me. I thought, oh, you're here to tell me how horrible I am.

What a piece of junk I am because I know better. I'm a follower of Christ, but yet here I got a gun to my head, and I'm an alcoholic. Darrell Bock And you were contemplating suicide.

Dr. Darrell Bock Absolutely. Had a.38 revolver to my head. And the voice said this so clearly, which transformed everything and everything I do.

He said this. I thought, you're going to tell me how bad I am. I'm going to see you in hell in just a minute, so hey, just hang on. And he said this, Dan, I love you right where you are.

Talk about something that breaks down all the works and the effort and performance of trying to be a Christian according to the standard or whatever. And I was in the charismatic movement, so that was kind of a big standard there. And in that moment, something happened in me. From that moment on, I wanted to chase hard after that love, that love that loved me right where I was.

And you know what? He loved me enough not to leave me there. That's part of the gospel I think people miss. They miss this idea that, yeah, God loves you right where you are. He forgives all your sins.

You're white as snow. But he loves you absolutely enough not to leave you there. And he wants to take you somewhere into an inheritance he causes you to walk into. You can't perform your way into that. You have to be loved into that.

Dr. Darrell Bock I want to get deep here for a minute. And folks, think about John 10, verse 10, one of the first verses I learned as a new believer. Jesus said, the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy.

I have come that you might have life and have it more abundantly. That's John 10-10. Folks, I want you to really take that verse to heart. The thief, that's Satan. He comes to steal, to kill, to destroy.

And how sad it would be if the story ended there. However, Jesus said, on the flip side, I have come, Jesus came, to give you life and life abundantly. We're going to circle back to that verse, but Dan, let me ask you this. When somebody has hit bottom, maybe through decisions they've made, circumstances, you know, so much of our problem is an amalgam of our own bad decisions.

And then other things too. Do you think we almost want God to be mad at us sometimes? Because we don't have a good view of who God is. We're like, God, you're probably evil anyway. God, you're probably a bad guy anyway. So just go ahead and snuff me out, because we know you probably want to anyway. Isn't that terrible thinking? I believe what happens in the human heart is there's a hole that's so big that just desires to be loved.

Won't somebody just love me? And we think, even in the negative terms, that if we did something wrong and God would spank us or hit us across the head, at least we would get some attention. And sometimes I think that negative attention that we want God to do is because we are so, so in need of that love of God. And when he says something like, I love you where you are, you're like, you can't. It's not right.

And he says, you're right, it's not. I love you because of my mercy, and I can't take my eyes off of you. I love you where you are, and I want to take you further and beyond what you could ever think or imagine. And because of that, I think the human heart needs to hear that resounding call of the Gospel that changes the inside of the heart that says, I am loved, I am incredibly loved by this passionate God who wants me right where I am and wants to take me to a place out of what I'm into, whether it's a sin or a habit or just negative thinking. He wants to move us on beyond that. That's why it says in Romans 12 there to be transformed by renewing your mind. So abundant life comes from not just saying a prayer, it doesn't come from going to church or just reading your Bible. It is an internal thing where Jesus said the greatest commandment is this, loving God with all your heart, your mind, your soul, and Mark says your strength, which is your physicality, your ability. God wants all of us, not one-tenth of us, not one-seventh of us. He wants 24-7 of us all the way through everything we are. That's why I think he says, if you love me that way, you will love your neighbor like you love yourself.

And that will make a difference. So everything that I think of right now is in terms of how can I be healthy in my mind, in my heart, in my soul, in my body? It all belongs to him. I'm the temple of the Holy Spirit, which scares me. That's like, think about it. Everywhere I go, I have the indwelling presence of the Spirit of the living God who's made this old stony heart into a new heart and a new creature. So I have a new creature in me that is coming from another world.

And that, when you think about it, is kind of freaky. How important is it that we have an accurate view of God? I mean, what suffers if we have a flawed view of God? Studies have been shown by scientists that if your view of God is this negative, going-to-beat-you-up kind of a God, that literally the part of your brain that controls empathy for other people shrinks, physically shrinks.

And when you see God as a loving, compassionate Father, full of grace and mercy, ready to forgive and ready to empower that person, the scientists said the actual part of your brain that controls empathy grows, which your view of God directly affects how you see other people. Wow. Hey, we've got to take a brief break. TNG Radio with Dan Stanley, author of Transforming Growth. Great book. I highly encourage you to read it.

TNG Radio is back after this. You know, Alex mixes it up with humor and stories he gleaned from decades of working with youth and encourages teens to build a foundation of faith that will stabilize their lives and help them take a stand for Christ. Simple and straightforward.

Stand. Core truths you must know for an unshakable faith. Available wherever Christian books are sold. If you're a Christian parent, you, of course, want to instill a biblical view of life in the hearts of your children. If you're a pastor, you want to offer ministry that draws young families to your church. This is Alex McFarland encouraging you to check out my new book and video curriculum, The 21 Toughest Questions Your Kids Will Ask About Christianity. Why do bad things happen? I interviewed hundreds of children, ages 5 to 12, and we address actual questions from actual children, the spiritual issues that are on the minds of your kids.

Did Jesus ever sin? The book and video lessons are great for groups of any size and was produced with the goal of equipping kids to stand strong for Christ in any situation. The 21 Toughest Questions Your Kids Will Ask, the book, study guide, and video series. You'll find it at afastore.net.

That's afastore.net. Abundant life, John 10 verse 10. Jesus came to give us eternal life and abundant life here on earth. And we're going to continue talking about that with Dan Stanley. I do want to remind you, we've got some exciting things coming up, folks. So many great things, and I don't know where you are in America, but if you would go to the website truthforanewgeneration.com.

Truth, F-O-R, truthforanewgeneration.com. We've got our camp coming up, the Youth Apologetics Camp, July 29th through August 2nd. It's going to be amazing. We've got people signed up from Ohio, and last year we had teenagers from nine states, and we'll be in Columbus, Ohio this fall. We'll be in Salt Lake City. We'll be in Richmond, Virginia. And we'll also be here at Rockfish Church May 3, 4, and 5.

I'm so excited. That's in Fayetteville. So wherever you are, book a ticket, get a ride, hop in the car. We believe God has a great vision for your life, and we believe a big part of that is getting equipped, first of all, to know Christ, to grow in Christ, to know what you believe and why you believe it, to know what it is to pray with power, to know how God can give you victory over those habits and those parts of your life that you just need victory in. And so go to truthforanewgeneration.com.

We've got an app. We've got a daily devotional. But we just want to come alongside and be a resource to encourage you in your walk and witness in the church throughout North America. We're talking right now with somebody who's given his life to do that. He and his wife, Jan, are just amazing Christian leaders that I've got such respect for.

Dan Stanley, pastor of Rockfish Church. And, you know, during the break, you and I were talking about the fact that you never graduate from the cross. You never graduate from the gospel. And you and I both, you know, we love good content and information, but just the simplicity of God so loving the world that he sent his only begotten Son, you know, John 3.16, that's something we never get over, is it?

I believe we don't, and I don't think God gets over it. He said, In this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come. So God's trigger is the gospel, which is part of the reason why I wrote this book, because I believe that growing people grow churches, and growing churches expand the gospel.

That's what God's after. And when I thought about that, I thought about the tremendous amount of energy it will take to take this gospel to the whole world and availability. I think one of the biggest issues I have discovered as a pastor and as a counselor is that people are so trapped up into worldliness, and they're so distracted, they're entangled, if you will, in the affairs of everyday life, that they are not useful to God to fulfill the Great Commission, or they're not useful or available to God to do kingdom operational work because they're so tied up in worldliness. So when it says in Revelation 18, it says, Come out of her, my people. So this idea of abundant life, I don't think it's just knowing Jesus and going to church.

I think it is a holistic approach, body, soul, spirit, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. How can we back up out of the trap of the world, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, pride of life kind of thing, and become what God's called us to be? Because this gospel, the kingdom, will be preached around the world. Well, what you just said is profound, that growing churches are led by growing people. Now, I don't know the percentages, some say 80%, but many, many, many American churches are plateaued or declining.

And I think a plateau is kind of really a misnomer anyway, because if you plateau, that lasts about five minutes, and then you really begin to go downward. So talk to us a little bit. For instance, Rockfish, and I've been acquainted with this church, I don't know, seven or eight years. Seems like Rockfish has been in perpetual revival. Seems very alive, very vibrant, people are getting saved. So how can a church that feels like they've sort of hit a brick wall, and they're coasting and out of gas, how can they reverse that and get back to being a vibrant, living church that is participating in the fulfillment of Christ's Great Commission? Well, I believe we have to go back to the very basics of Christianity. As a matter of fact, the book, I talk about the acronym of GROWTH, which is basically everything centers on the gospel God, which the gospel is the centerpiece.

It has to be – you don't orbit around it. It is the centerpiece of what God's called us to do. And not only that, we don't get called repentance too often anymore. You know, we're called to repent.

We're called to repent. And the vision of what God's called us to do is – I called it the omega optics, and the way we see God, like we talked about earlier, is a profound influence on the spiritual health of the church. So all of these mechanisms, not only that, structures of churches, how the decisions are made at that local church level will determine the success or failure of that church, because politics get involved, power plays. If you don't build it, I call it a theocracy. I think we should be built on a theocracy, which is a big subject. But not only that, worship – are we worshipping God? Are we putting our lives in the hands of a God who's bigger than what we can see? And are we living a healthy life, a healthy lifestyle? Because our society, no matter how you cut it, slice it, or bake it, we are living on the edge of a major health catastrophe. And that will take out followers that cannot take the gospel to where it needs to go.

That's a big issue. In your book, you tie sustainability to repentance. I'm glad you mentioned repentance. Now, is repentance a one-and-done kind of thing? You know, we turn to Christ and we accept Christ and are born again. Does a believer have things to repent about, Dan?

I believe there's two things, almost like walking. Two steps, two legs, if you will, two feet – repentance and faith. Repentance and faith. The Bible's very clear. Walk the same way you received Christ.

How do you do that? Repentance and faith. I think it's an ongoing thing. Repentance from even the sins may we commit, or repentance from, hey, look, I think this is my body. I'll do with it what I will. When it's the temple of the Holy Spirit, it is all about stewardship, Dan. 1 Corinthians 6. We are not our own. Exactly. So everything in our life is a stewardship operation.

What we eat, what we drink, what we spend our money on, how we invest our time, our treasure, all those things are in need of repentance on a daily basis. Dan, I'm so thrilled to hear you say that. One of our core values – and if you listen to this program much, you've heard me say it – view all of life in terms of stewardship. Give us your website one more time, Dan.

rockfishchurch.com is the church website and internationalgrowthinstitute.com is for the International Growth Institute. Alex McFarland here with Dr. Dan Stanley, TNG Radio. Hey, you're looking for that abundant life?

You'll find it in Jesus. TNG Radio is made possible by the friends of Alex McFarland Evangelistic Ministries, P.O. Box 10231, Greensboro, North Carolina 27404. That's P.O. Box 10231, Greensboro, North Carolina 27404. Or give online at alexmcfarland.com or truthforanewgeneration.com. Thanks for listening and join us again next time as we bring you more truth for a new generation on TNG Radio.