A Conversation with Bob Kelley about Socialism

TNG Radio, where today's culture and timeless truths come together.

It's reasoned, relevant content apologetics, worldview, and answers to the questions that you need to know. From Alex McFarland Ministries, this is Truth for a New Generation Radio. And now the man who preached in 50 states in 50 days, speaker, writer, and advocate for Christian apologetics, Dr. Alex McFarland. As chapter one, verse six, it talks about there arose a generation that did not know Joseph. There was a king in Egypt that did not know Joseph.

Hi, welcome to Truth for a New Generation, Alex McFarland. I'm sure you know that very famous story where Joseph had been under Pharaoh and had really saved Egypt. He interpreted the dreams of the lean cows and the lean ears of corn. And he saw a famine coming. And he had great renown and great wealth. He had great fame because he saved Egypt. But by and by, enough years went by and Joseph died.

And along comes another Pharaoh who didn't know Joseph, a whole generation that didn't know Joseph, and they did not know the God of Joseph. I would submit to you, in a way, we're like that in America right now. We just celebrated our 244th national anniversary since the independence from Britain. And there's a lot about American history. That I love.

But I'm very concerned. I've got a stat here from a magazine that says in the last decade, support for socialism among young people has more than doubled, in fact, almost tripled. And things like big government, the growth of government, the reduction of the role of the family, certainly the reduction of the role of the church. Many of the things that have characterized America, and I would say have contributed to the greatness and the goodness of America, are things that 20-somethings and younger don't know about, or if they do know about, they have a genuinely negative perception of, and things that at one point in American history that we would have thought were anathema, they increasingly have a positive view of capitalism, bad, socialism, good, moral right and wrong, black and white, that's biased, and that's phobic, and that's hateful, but moral relativism, that's good. And the lawlessness that we've seen in the streets over the summer of 2020, there are more and more people in the country that don't see this as a bad thing. They might see the riots and the anarchy as just a natural thing that people express when they've been oppressed. Some reasons that we believe socialism, I'm going to hone in on one topic here, socialism, the rise of socialism, the favorable view of socialism, and really the platform that some leaders are embracing for socialism, I would submit to you, it is incompatible with America, it is not good economics, and it is even incompatible with Scripture, and will leave the lives of people damaged.

Not improved. Well, with me to help discuss some of these things and give some insights is a very dear friend and colleague, brilliant man, and part of the Ministry of Truth for New Generation, Bob Kelly. And Bob, you and I came together 20 years ago plus, and I think the Lord brought us together around the subject of apologetics. And I've never asked you this, within the realm of apologetics, what's your favorite topic? I mean, what is your, the apologetics subject that most interests you, Bob? Well, I have a background in doing a lot of creation studies for about 20 years or 25 years or something, and of course, in that we talk about the origin of the universe, and one of the natural topics that come out of apologetics is proofs or evidence for the existence of God.

And so there are several, it could even be many, it's quite a large subject, but it's pretty fascinating if you start with the existence of God, because that has to be in order to lay the foundation of the whole topic. You know, for those that are in the Carolinas, I remember 25 years ago when I was a youth pastor, Ken Ham came to town, and that was the first I learned of Answers in Genesis. Of course, Ken Ham has become world famous now, building the ark and everything. But you were one of the first people to help bring Answers in Genesis into North Carolina, weren't you? He's a terrific writer and speaker, and there's a lot of good material that he produced. Well, you know, given that, you're kind of ahead of the curve, and we're very honored that you're participating with Truth for a New Generation and doing some things.

And so folks, the name Bob Kelly is a name that I pray you'll hear a whole lot more of in the context of our ministry. But a few weeks ago, you and I were talking a lot about socialism. And let's hone in on that just a little bit, because well, I'll ask it this way.

You've been in the Worldview ministry for a couple of decades-plus. Has the sudden embrace of socialism surprised you? I mean, did you in any way see this coming?

Actually, it did not. I mean, I think a lot of people are surprised about what's happened, because what's happened in the course of the last six or eight months or something seems to be an extremely well-coordinated series of events that are targeted at the free market system or the capitalistic system is really under attack. And so yeah, it's been a surprising turn of events. What do you say to those that say, well, you know, you're Christians, you're supposed to love your neighbor, therefore, things like capitalism and private property ownership, and the government just letting the market run its course.

That's not good. I mean, there's almost this assertion that Christianity should necessarily gravitate toward socialism. Now I disagree with that, but I want to know what you would say to that. I agree.

I would agree. Now folks, in Proverbs 28, the Word of God says this, that when the righteous rise, there's great joy or great glory, but the upright run and hide when the lawless rise. When the wicked, some translations say rise, a man goes to hiding.

That's Proverbs 28, 12. And we've got to take a brief break. We're going to come back. We're going to talk about this.

Socialism, what should we respond or how should we respond to the rise of socialism in a formerly capitalistic, largely Christian America? Stay tuned. Truth for New Generation Radio is back after this. As we take a break, let me tell you about three tens, three books that will answer questions that come your way from others or even yourself about the Christian faith. Book number one, 10 answers for skeptics. Today's skeptics are looking for authenticity, integrity, and straightforward faith. And in this book, you'll learn how to answer intimidating questions, identify the root issue behind those questions, and dismantle the spiritual bombshells dropped by nine.

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That's liberty.edu backslash explore to learn more. Timeless Trues in a Soundbite Culture. Truth for a New Generation Radio. Welcome back to Truth for a New Generation Radio.

Alex McFarland here with colleague, brother, and friend Bob Kelly. Proverbs 28, 12, we read before the break, it says, when the righteous rise, there's great rejoicing and glory, but when wicked men rise, men go into hiding. Let me say this, Bob, how important do you think it is that some of the founding principles of America, including, you know, an honest day's work and personal initiative and, you know, that what sometimes was called rugged individualism.

This goes back to the Plymouth Colony with William Bradford, you know, and Bradford really believed in where the Bible says if a man won't work, neither shall he eat. Twofold question, how at risk are those values and convictions and how important might it be that we rediscover them? Well, I think they are at risk because under the rising tide of socialism, there is the idea that the government should control everything.

I mean, it's all, it's very pervasive in all aspects of society so that if you read the list and almost any website, they'll tell you what they're looking to control, and it's everything. This is in contrast to what the founders envisioned, and again, we have to go back to the history books to see some of this stuff, but they envisioned creating an environment where freedom could flourish. That was really their idea.

That was their picture. And so we have gotten into a government that is now micromanaging our lives. That was never, ever close to the model that the founders sought in the beginning.

Yeah, I agree. And folks, you've got to understand, okay, morals, liberty, capitalism. Now, morals, that God exists and God is intensely interested in right behavior, and we've talked probably dozens of times on this program about why we believe morality is objective. It's not something man made up, but morals are real, and they touch all of our lives. And then liberty. Now that just, that doesn't mean a militant autonomy that you can do whatever you want. Liberty means not only the freedom to pursue, as the founding documents talk about, the pursuit of happiness and to chart one's own destiny, but also to safely go about one's duty.

Because with moral liberty comes also moral responsibility. But then a capitalistic society. We are not a feudal system. It's certainly not a caste system like in India where if you're born a Dalit, you'll die a Dalit. No, in America, if you're willing to work hard, say your prayers, live right, be industrious, exhibit self-restraint, and live within your means, you can accumulate wealth. And even Marx recognized that.

I'm going to come back to that in a moment. But Bob, I watch the news, I read, I voluminously study trends among young people, and I guess, and here's how I'll throw the question to you. It seems like so many of the younger people that are soured against capitalism, and really not terribly keen on America, they've never seen America at her best. They've never seen capitalism thriving, really. And I would say this even goes back to the 70s.

Artificial control of the markets. How do we talk about an America where so many young people have never been coached to love America, really to be appreciative of America, maybe never even seen America at what you and I would say was her best. How do we convey to them the glory of what America has represented, and what a tragedy it would be if it's all lost? Well, I think this starts in the home and in the schools, which lays the foundation for their worldview, which is extremely critical. And so there's a lot of responsibility to perpetuate the goals and the models upon which this nation was built.

And those things, for whatever reason, are falling by the wayside. And so there needs to be, I think, a wake-up call, and hopefully we will see in what's going on now, if people now are beginning to understand the threat to the American lifestyle and so forth, that that may be the impetus they need in order to be able to start teaching their children at home in the fundamentals of the American system. Some of the viewpoints of like Alexandra Ocasia-Cortez, who everybody deserves a guaranteed wage, guaranteed health care, free college tuition, all buildings have to go green, the government will phase out airplanes within 10 years. I mean, she's just one of a number of talking heads these days that have a socialistic plan for the future, like Bernie Sanders. By the way, I just read today how the platform for the 2020 November elections, Bernie Sanders and his staff are heavily involved in crafting Joe Biden's platform.

I read that today. So what will America look like if the socialists and the socialist worldview continues to be influential? What do you see this country looking like in 3, 5, 10 years? Well, that's a huge question.

There are a lot of things that will happen, obviously, if the election swings in the wrong direction. But America, the socialism is not a new concept in America. It's been tried. It started in the 19th century. There were colonies, for lack of a better term, that were planted, one of the most famous of which was in New Harmony, Indiana, that was created by a man named Owen and his staff. These socialist enclaves, for the most part, lasted something on the order of 3 to 5 years. But again, it's not new. It's something that's happened in the past.

As I was working on my next book that's going to come out, which I urge you to look at and pre-order if you could, it's called Assault on America, The Things We Must Do to Save Our Country. Bob, I found by 1900, 80 socialist communities that were attempted and failed and closed before the dawn of the 20th century. Just from around the 1840s to 1900, 80 socialist utopias that tried and failed even before 1900. Well, yeah, one of the founders of one of these socialist enclaves said that he was having trouble, and he realized that there were people who just didn't buy into the system. And for lack of a better description of that, they were coming along to sort of benefit from the works of others.

They were really taking advantage of the system. And he said, I've discovered that mankind was not quite as high-minded as I thought they might be. Wow. Hold that thought, folks. We're going to come back, Truth for New Generation, a critique of socialism, with our colleague Bob Kelly when we return.

Stay tuned. Christians don't necessarily agree with one another when it comes to questions of religious pluralism, homosexuality, the role of government, abortion, and war. Too often we manage these disagreements by ignoring them. Yet we're called to engage the world for the sake of Christ.

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Find this book and many others at AlexMcFarland.com. If you're a Christian parent, you of course want to instill a biblical view of life in the hearts of your children. If you're a pastor, you want to offer ministry that draws young families to your church. This is Alex McFarland encouraging you to check out my new book and video curriculum, The 21 Toughest Questions Your Kids Will Ask About Christianity. Why do bad things happen? I interviewed hundreds of children, ages 5 to 12, and we address actual questions from actual children, the spiritual issues that are on the minds of your kids.

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That's AFASTORE.net. In the midst of a culture obsessed with relativism, Alex McFarland is a voice you can trust to speak the timeless truths of Christianity in a timely way. You're listening to Truth for a New Generation Radio. Welcome back to the program.

Alex McFarland here with Bob Kelly, and we're talking about socialism. By the way, I do want to say thanks to everybody who's en route, probably even as we speak to the Cove. By the time you hear this broadcast, I'll be in western North Carolina at the Billy Graham Training Center for my study of Daniel and Revelation.

I was on the phone this morning with Will Graham, director of the Cove, and we're so excited. A hundred and eleven people are making their way to Asheville to go to the Cove, and given the social distancing, that's only a third of what we usually have. We usually have around 300 people, but it's maximum capacity. So all things considered, it is sold out, and I want to thank everybody for their support.

I know we've had some three or four dozen people who've contacted us and said that they were going to come, but they couldn't come because of extenuating circumstances, but I want to say thanks. And my own website, which is AlexMcFarland.com, my speaking schedule for the fall is gearing up. We're going to have a big, big prayer rally for the election, as we did four years ago. We're going to keep you informed about that.

And then finally, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday at 11 a.m. Eastern. Now folks, listen, and I want to thank you for, you know, we started out having 21 viewers. Now we've had as high as 51,000. But the webcast we're doing on Facebook, Rev Alex McFarland, that's R-E-V, Rev Alex McFarland, every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday at 11 a.m. And we put those up on YouTube, Truth for a New Generation YouTube channel. And we're tackling a myriad of topics related to Biblical worldview and culture, and people are forwarding those on. And we're getting, Bob, we're getting a lot of mail from people, most of whom like it, a few say some not nice things about us narrow-minded Christians. But I will say this proudly, unashamedly, we love God and country.

And friend, we love you. And the only reason we're preaching and saying the things we say, publishing the things we publish, we know Jesus Christ is the answer. And Jesus is the answer for all of your needs in life as well. And Bob, I would say that the gospel of Jesus and the Biblical worldview is the answer for this country. So we're proclaiming and broadcasting, and we appreciate your prayers and support, everyone. Jesus is the answer for this, the hope for this nation, isn't He?

Always has been, yes, indeed. And we are Christians speaking on behalf of the Lord, actually, is what that amounts to. And so we can rest in the rock. We have Him as our foundation, and all the truth comes from Him. And so there is maybe a tendency now, we hear these things, and it's a frenzy of activity on the Internet and so forth, to be concerned that we're going to lose the battle or something is going to turn in a wrong direction and so forth. But we shouldn't, because we could go back to the rock and always be firmly founded in the Christ of our belief system.

And so we should not be deterred. Bob, what does capitalism offer human beings? You know, in terms of really changing one's life and destiny, what does capitalism offer, and what does socialism offer? Well, when I think about capitalism as opposed to socialism, I think about freedom, because the capitalist system is called free market, and it is, and when it is interfered with by external forces, such as the government, they always end up causing a problem with the free market system. What that amounts to is the people who are involved, the capitalists, the entrepreneurs in the free market system are able to benefit from this.

And, of course, with it proceeding according to a Christian foundation, then they're able to share the benefits and share the wealth, share all the good things that come from their entrepreneurial business with their workers, with their families, with the community, and it goes on and on and on. Socialism, on the other hand, is you'll see the term central planning, and that is everywhere in the socialist literature. It says everything will be determined.

The design is determined, the quantity produced is determined, the price is determined, the availability is determined. And what happens is when you see these end societies, and if you look around the world at those places which have tried socialism, they end up failing because they cannot compete in a free market system. And we say, well, a free market system is not a good thing because of greed or whatever it happens to be, but free market produces the goods that people want. If you say, what do you want? Do you want this car or that car?

Do you want this cell phone, that cell phone, whatever it happens to be? You're going to pick the one that came from the capitalistic system because it embodies the best that people have and can put into their work. You know, I'm a car guy, and I remember in the 80s, some of the automobiles, quote, unquote, that came out of the Soviet countries and the countries that were under communism. And on the rare occasions when some of the cars, quote, unquote, produced in communist nations were tried to be sold in Western countries, it was a joke. And there was one that very famously literally had a body. The car body was made out of pressed particle board like wood. And I remember seeing an expose on television where the car body got wet and just in the handful of people could pull. Do you remember that?

They were literally pulling the car body apart. The communist slash socialist economies did not produce the robust line of products, well refined, improved upon, that a capitalist economy. And we call that market forces. Market forces have brought us better cars, better hamburgers, more accurate wristwatches, all the way down to personal computers and iPhones. If you like the great amenities of life, from air conditioning to indoor plumbing, friends, socialist economies did not bring you those things.

We're almost out of time, folks. You're listening to Truth for a New Generation. And I would say this, socialism not only is incompatible with American culture and economics, socialism is incompatible with the Bible because it misreads human nature, it forgets our propensity for sin and greed and selfishness, dishonesty. But also, socialism has a view of reality that is flawed. So folks, we've got to come back and we'll pick this up again, but in the meantime, pray for our country.

Remember Proverbs 14.34, that righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach or a debasement to any people. Pray for America. And thanks for listening to Truth for a New Generation. Alex McFarland here with Bob Kelly, looking forward to the time that we can meet again soon to discuss worldview and truth in our world that so desperately needs to hear it. Call us at 877-YesGod1.

That's 877-Yes-God and the number 1. Or give online at AlexMcFarland.com. While you're there, listen to Program Archives, read Alex's blog, invite Alex to speak at your event, or contact Alex with a question or comment. AlexMcFarland.com. Thanks for listening today and join us again next time as we bring you more Truth for a New Generation on TNG Radio.