The Spiritual Condition of America, Politics, Culture, and Current Events Analyzed Through the Lens of Scripture. Welcome to the Alex McFarland Show. One of my favorite passages is Psalm 19 that says, The heavens and earth bear witness to the glory of God. Hi, Alex McFarland here. We're at NRB.
So, if you hear some noise in the background, we are at this wonderful convention at which we meet so many fascinating people. And this particular program here is no exception. You know, on the program, if you've listened very long, we do a lot with apologetics, which is really the evidence for the biblical worldview. People ask me, Alex, why do you believe God exists? And I believe God has shown us in nature and in Scripture, creation, conscience, scripture, savior.
Well, we have a fascinating show today because our guest is attorney Matthew Mark McQuarter.
Now, he's written a book, The Bible on Trial, Making the Case for Christianity. It's a book I highly recommend. His website, or at least one of the websites, is canoncrossfire.com. C-A-N-O-N canon, as in the canon of scripture, Crossfire, canoncrossfire.com. But first of all, Matthew, thank you for your time.
God bless you. I am just coming to appreciate and respect your work so much. But the idea of you being a defender Of Christianity, an apologist. It wasn't always that way, was it? Not at all.
Yeah, luckily, my mom named me after the Bible, or I wouldn't be here for this journey because it was only because I was named after it that I ever read it. The first evangelist. Exactly. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Exactly.
So I want to hear your story. Where are you from, your career trajectory, and how you came to this point in your journey? Yeah, so I'm from Ohio. As I say, my mom named me after the Bible, I think, to make her father, my grandfather, happy.
So, you know, I was named after it, but we didn't pray, didn't go to church, didn't read the Bible, didn't really know the entire Christian story.
So, you know, go on to college in Ohio and on to law school in Pennsylvania, work all over the country, all over the world as a big corporate attorney, run into major medical problems. And I'm very lucky to be alive. And as I was recovering, people started asking me about my bucket list.
Okay. And I said, well, I guess I was named after those books. I probably should read them. And that's all this was at the time: just I was named after it, and I was curious what was in there.
So I went on to Amazon and I discovered that there are so many different Bibles out there. There are Catholic Bibles, Protestant Bibles, Orthodox Bibles. Protestants and Orthodox don't agree necessarily on what the books in the Bible should be. And then you have these heretical Bibles, as I would think of them, as I'm sure you think of them. But I mean, just the Queen James Bible.
Exactly, the Gospel of Thomas, the New World Translation by the Jehovah's Witnesses. Purposely distorts the Greek to undermine the deity of Jesus. Exactly. And I mean, just, you don't know what you're reading, or even what I'm supposed to be reading, I guess I should say, at that stage of this development for me.
So I bought pretty much all of the Bibles that I could get my hands on. And I ended up reading Matthew chapter one. I would read it across every Bible and every Bible commentary I had. And then the next week I would move on to chapter two. And I ended up reading the entire New Testament that way.
It was fantastic reading. You know, learn so much, and as you say, just learned how crazy some translations are, how different, as I say, the Bibles can be with different books in them, that sort of thing.
So I was. As I'm reading this, I start getting interested in the Christian story. And I start exploring sort of the case for Christ angle of can we prove Christianity is true? But I still have this weirdness that I didn't have a church bringing me in. I didn't have a person saying this is the Bible you're supposed to believe.
So I ended up having two questions in my mind: is Christianity true and what Bible am I supposed to be reading?
Now, Matthew, at this point in your life, Would you have considered yourself an atheist? Yeah, starting this, I... You know, I wasn't a hateful atheist. I just was an uncaring atheist. Like, you know, it doesn't matter, lights go out when I die, and I'll move on.
You know, if you die, that's the end. Exactly. There's no future beyond your life, so enjoy what you can on the way. That would have been my viewpoint at the time. Wow.
You know, it really is, and I want to hear your story. I'm fascinated because I've interviewed a lot of atheists. And I mean, Michael Shermer and Christopher Hitchens, who became a friend. And I'm always fascinated to hear why people are atheists. But it's really the grace of God.
I mean, the fact that you had the presence of mind to begin this search and to be as open and unbiased enough to kick the tires and take a look. This is real, you are a trophy of God's grace. That's how I, you know. As I say, I'm very lucky to be alive, given the medical stuff. I mean, you know, 99% I should be dead.
I managed to survive all that, and it's like, I feel like God had a purpose for me. Yes. And that the purpose is kind of where this research that I did and the way that I ended up with my book, but it's like I had a lifetime of skill, an interest in doing it, you know, and exploring it as a case, as a lawyer, and an interest in this whole case for Christ concept, and just approaching things that way. You know, had all this happened earlier in my life, I would have had different skills, different ideas, different things.
So it's sort of like he arranged everything for the best, I think. Parenthetically, let me ask this: when you were in law school, was there anything you learned in law school about Western Civ or even American jurisprudence that it was based on the Ten Commandments or natural law or not? Not really. Yeah, it's, I mean, it might be like a. Half hour in the history of law type class where they talk about the code of Himmurabi and the Ten Commandments, but I mean it's just a passing reference.
Well, British common law in 1132 said it was based on Moses and the Decalogue, Scottish common sense realism, so much of the law in the Western world, and certainly America, at least in her inception, was really rooted in a biblical view of morality. I think I'd say I came to it less through law school than as I became Christian, I realized how much of the law, as you say, and our culture is based on what I was reading, and no one had ever told me that. Exactly. I saw it as I went through more than I had learned it through school. You know, when I was in college, Matthew, I was an English major in my first visit to the university.
We were studying Moby Dick by Herman Melville, which, you know, is so steeped in scripture, really. And I wasn't a believer yet. I was about 20, and I became a Christian when I was 21. But I remember, you know, reading, and I kept coming across these weird names. Ahab, exactly.
And I was like, oh, okay, well, that's from the Bible. And so many, even in Shakespeare. And I feel like you miss so much of these stories if you don't know the Bible. And that was the situation I was in. Like, now that I know the Bible, I find so much more in those stories than I ever did the first time I read them.
Indeed. Indeed, for those just tuning in, the voice you're hearing is Matthew McQuarter, canoncrossfire.com, and that's with one in. Folks, I really want you to read this book because The Bible on Trial, making the case for Christianity from an attorney. And we've known many attorneys that attorneys become fantastic Christians. And convert more often, they say, because we know what evidence looks like.
Exactly. We're going to come back and we're going to talk about: is Christianity true? Is it rational? Is the Bible trustworthy? From Matthew McWhorter and more.
Stay tuned. We've got a break and we'll be back. Fox News and CNN call Alex McFarland, a religion and culture expert. Stay tuned for more of his teaching and commentary after this. Christian author and speaker Alex McFarland is an advocate for Christian apologetics.
Teaching in more than 2,200 churches around the world, schools, and college campuses, Alex is driven by a desire to help people grow in relationship with God. He arms his audiences with the tools they need to defend their faith, while also empowering the unchurched to find out the truth for themselves. In the midst of a culture obsessed with relativism, Alex is a sound voice who speaks timeless truths of Christianity in a timely way. With 18 published books to his name, it's no surprise that CNN, Fox, The Wall Street Journal, and other media outlets have described Alex as a religion and culture expert. To learn more about Alex and to book him as a speaker at your next event, visit alexmacfarland.com or you can contact us directly by emailing booking at alexmacfarland.com.
He's been called trusted, truthful, and timely. Welcome back to the Alex McFarlane Show. Welcome back to the program. Alex McFarland here on the floor of the National Religious Broadcasters Convention. That's the noise you hear in the background, this little beehive of activity or ministries and individuals, fascinating people, one of whom is Matthew McQuarter.
And we were talking in the first break about you went to law school and you began to read the New Testament. That's fascinating that you had the different translations and you book by book.
So you got into the New Testament. And I want to hear about that, but... At that point, did you believe that this ancient, venerated book was a trustworthy source? No, not to start.
Okay. So that grew on me over time. As I say, I had to, you know, I'm sort of going through all these different translations and winnowing down as I realize some of them are not giving me honest translations or honest commentary, et cetera. But you end up with the mainstream denominations. Most, you know, 99% of it, we all agree on.
Exactly. There's just very little discrepancies here and there. And then, as I say, I'm. Simultaneously looking into why we would trust the Bible and what the Bible should be, and it's that research that was going on that would eventually convince me. But it took a while.
You know, C.S. Lewis, I love C.S. Lewis. He lived 1898 to 1963, Oxford professor and great, you know, he was an atheist till he was about 38, and he became a believer, one of the most potent apologists of the 20th century. But Lewis said this, he said, as I got into the Bible, He said it just had the ring of truth.
Did you find that to be the case in your own mind? Yeah, it probably took me longer than him, but in terms of what I had to read. But the four gospels read like eyewitness testimony to a lawyer. And that's what you hear from any lawyer who's ever read them. That sounds like eyewitness testimony.
That doesn't mean it's true by itself, but the sort of things that bother other people to us are very normal. Exactly. And, you know, families have... Different versions of stories, you know, I was just talking with somebody, but like, you know, if your family's arguing all the time, mom and dad, over what actually happened 20 years ago at some dinner or whatever, like the little discrepancies that people, when you're trying to be atheists, when you're trying to convince yourself it's not true, you obsess over these little details, like that is normal human. Behavior, it's not surprising we have four slightly different versions of the same story.
Have you ever heard? He's a great Christian apologist named Jay Warner Wallace. Absolutely. Jim Wallace. Do you know Jim?
Yes, he's a friend of ours as well. In fact, he and I last summer had the privilege, we did a week at the Billy Graham Conference Center in Asheville. And he talked about how he was an atheist. until, I don't know, like age 50 or something like that. He was a decorated LA homicide detective.
And he kind of was known to crack the cases that could not be solved. And so he knew about evidence. And he said he knew when a witness was lying to him. And so some of his friends that were fellow law officers that were believers said, look. You know, you're a smart guy.
Look at the evidence, you know. And Jim Wallace tells the story about how he read those Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. And he said, no, I can believe this. And my friend Lee Strobel, law degree from Yale, same deal. And I appreciate you so much.
The book is called Cannon Crossfire.
So let me ask you this. Were you a trial lawyer or? No, I was more of a corporate lawyer.
So a lot of reading and summarizing for people is sort of the skill that I think I brought to bringing this book together was it's a massive amount of evidence. Sure. But part of my life skills are taking that evidence and putting it in a format for my client to understand it so that I did the work, they can read it, they'll understand it. And that's what I try to show in the book is the evidence for the books of the Bible. And why, in particular, these books that are in Catholic Bibles and not in Protestant Bibles, what is the evidence for them?
Because the case for Christ books, you know, Jay Warner Wallace, as you say, and Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell. We know Josh, yeah. Those fantastic books assemble the evidence for the New Testament. And the question I was having is: well, I still need to make a decision on this Old Testament because they vary between the Bible.
So I wanted to know what that evidence is. I went out, I assembled it, and I give it to the reader in the way so that the reader can effectively learn what all that evidence is without having to spend the rest of your life researching it. Because it took me years to assemble it. I looked all over for this book. I wanted to know what all the evidence was.
But no one had done Josh McDowell's work in this space, so I had to do it. With your legal background, what is meant by the phrase beyond a reasonable doubt? Yeah, so there's different standards of proof.
So people, you know, whenever you watch two people arguing, you'll find that they misunderstand evidence and conclusions unless you think of it, sort of break it down like a lawyer would. And the lawyer looks at, you know, in some cases they call it a preponderance of the evidence. That means it's more likely to have happened than not. That's a low standard. That's usually what you'd use for a civil lawsuit where the only matter involved is money.
Might be important, but it's only money. Beyond a reasonable doubt is for actually putting somebody in jail. That is a very serious standard. That is saying that no reasonable person would conclude anything other than that this person committed the crime, that the defendant committed the crime. Because you just don't want to have an innocent man in jail.
Better to have 10 innocent men go free.
So that's a very high standard of proof. You know, when I was in graduate school, I was very blessed to sit under some professors like the late Norm Geisler, J.P. Moreland, who's at Biola now, a dear friend Gary Habermas, who is a great voice on the resurrection. And Habermas used to talk about what we call a cumulative case apologetic. Logically, Belief that God exists is a reasonable inference.
Design had a designer, creation had a creator. And then you look at the Bible, and manuscripts have been preserved, and we know what the content was. And then Jesus, you know, you've got eyewitness testimony, but even hostile testimony, Jewish, Greek, and Roman sources that reference. And then we've got things like archaeology and history. And you know, it's fascinating, as you know, I'm sure, but the science of archaeology is a fairly young discipline, 200 years.
And, you know, there was a time, maybe 300 years ago, when they just assumed Jericho was a myth and Ur of the Chaldees, and yet with time and again, archaeologists discovered all these things. Exactly. So Habermas would say, and I concur, I mean, when you look at all of these things, it's a pretty compelling cumulative case. It is. And it's also a time.
Element, as you're saying, as you look back at this archaeology and the history of it, is that Christianity survived so many different attacks. As you slowly saw the evidence build up to prove these things. Like, you know, when you're dealing with an atheist who's trying to argue or something, well, I have this theory or I have this thing. Like, look back at the history, over and over, it turned out it was right. And you're sort of betting on that track record as much as anything, but it's part of the cumulative evidence that over and over people had these challenges that.
As you say, Ur didn't exist. It did. We were right. Yeah, yeah.
So when you say you put the Bible on trial, explain. Yeah, it's exactly that. I started with the, you know, this is a nice story, but comic books are nice stories. You know, it doesn't mean it's true. What is the evidence to convince somebody that it really did happen, that the Bible really is, you know, as you say, faithfully preserved, et cetera?
Just take a look at all that evidence and break it down.
So that's what I was doing for myself. You know, Dr. Habermas and everyone else were fantastic resources in that. And then, as I say, there was this piece that it's just an oddity of how I came to this, that I didn't have a Bible.
So I had to research what the Bible was. It really is a wonderful story. We've got to take a break. Folks, don't go away. We are going to come back more with our very special guest, attorney, scholar, Matthew McWhorter, after this.
Fox News and CNN call Alex McFarland, a religion and culture expert. Stay tuned for more of his teaching and commentary after this. Over the last several decades, it's been my joy to travel the world talking with children, teens, adults, people of all ages about the questions they have related to God, the Bible, Christianity, and how to know Jesus personally. Hi, Alex McFarlane. I want to make you aware of my book, The 21 Toughest Questions Your Kids Will Ask About Christianity.
You know, we interviewed hundreds of children and parents and families to find out the questions that children and people of all ages are longing to find answers for. In the book, we've got practical, biblical, real-life answers that they have about how to be a Christian in this modern world. My book, The 21 Toughest Questions Your Kids Will Ask, you can find it wherever you buy books or at resources.afa.net. He's been called trusted, truthful, and timely. Welcome back to the Alex McFarlane Show.
Welcome back. We'll resume our conversation with Matthew McWhorter on the veracity of the Bible. But let me refer you, if I can or if I may, to alexmcfarlane.com. A lot going on this year, and let me make you aware of United in Prayer. Every Tuesday, we send out a prayer devotional just to encourage you.
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Well, someone that I just met earlier today, but I've already come to appreciate very much, is Matthew McWhorter. I've met many lawyers that become Christians, and attorneys make really, really great Christians. I mean, and especially apologetics-oriented Christians, and case in point, yourself.
So, thanks for being with us. The website canoncrossfire.com. And let's just talk about this because we get this question a lot. And I want to preface this. Because we talk about apologetics, I invoke many names from the last 2,000 years.
Many people God has worked through: Protestant, Catholic, Greek Orthodox. Uh no denomination in particular. I want to preface this. 1 John 5.1. Says, whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.
Now I know Protestants and Catholics don't agree on everything. And the subject of soteriology, so please folks, just I want to preemptively Ask you to listen to the next few moments patiently. Matthew, I am. I grew up Presbyterian. came to the Lord through a Baptist campus ministry.
Have taught in 2,000 churches, Protestant and Catholic. St. Pius X in Greensboro, Father Frank Connolly, had me in to teach apologetics. He said, I know you're a Baptist, but you're our guest. You have the floor.
These things like. truth Morality. The triune nature of God. The deity of Jesus, God the Son. Calvary's cross, the atonement, the physical resurrection, the Lord rose from the dead.
We all agree on these things. Exactly. We all agree. And Liz, believe me, I've got an opinion on everything. But the truth is, you know, for our conferences, we've booked speakers of every strata.
And I just believe, and I'll throw this to you, and we haven't. This is not scripted, we're just sharing from the heart. John 17, 21, Christ prayed, Father, that they all may be one, O any, that the world may believe thou hast sent me. I just have in my heart that it would be absolutely transformative for Protestants and Catholics. To proclaim with a unified voice, the hope of the world is Jesus.
Absolutely. You stressed the many things that we agree on, but the first one I thought was the most important, which is truth. We believe there is one truth. We may have trouble seeing it, we may be in disagreement over the details about it, but we agree that there is one truth, and that is the foundation, the building block of everything else. We are having a conversation about what is true.
And no matter how much we might be disagreeing, and furious, and emotional, or whatever, the point is we're both searching for the truth. And it's amazing how, you know, everyone says it, but it is amazing how much of the problem of Christianity is the Christians. You know, the Christianity is the truth. And we are all seeking that, but we have to be Christian in our own disputes with Christians, right? And we're all brothers, we're all looking for the truth.
And as long as we're. trying collectively to figure out the truth. We're all on the right side. Amen. And, you know, even when you were saying earlier, but you know, even your conversations with atheists, there's a difference between two different kinds of people who don't believe.
There's those that are searching for the truth and those that are actively rejecting the truth. Right, right. And, you know, the guy who's searching for the truth is going to end up on our side sooner or later, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Well, and let me say this too: that in the 19th century, there was a great leader named D.L. Moody, Dwight Moody, and he was like a global celebrity, even in his own lifetime, in a horse and buggy era. Two quotes that really moved my heart. He said: Any friend of Jesus is a friend of mine. He also said this, Deal Moody.
God is pleased when Christians work together. I really think that is the secret to the redemption of our culture. is that the body of Christ needs the body. I mean, and folks, I know we have our own little enclaves. But if somebody is a believer in Jesus, we're family.
Exactly. I really believe that. And you know, the golden rule, treat the other man as you would wish to be treated yourself. Apply that to Christians. Try it.
I know we disagree, but try it to apply that to your fellow Christians, not just to the outsiders. Indeed. When did you realize that God is real, that God exists, and really the Bible is the instruction manual for life, shall we say? It was about halfway through the reading of the New Testament that I started to say, boy, this is really explaining the universe and humanity better than all the other things I had read because the whole concept of original sin, which was sort of absent from my life, but it explains why humans are so messed up and so flawed. Whereas so many other things I read will talk about self-interest, like economics or it's a selfish gene.
They'll talk about it in biology that you're trying to spread your genes. My God, humanity is terrible at doing this. Those two things. And the concept that there was a fall is a better explanation of the world. And as soon as I started realizing that, I'm like, you know, maybe this really is true.
I should start looking into this. And then as I started taking it more seriously, it just grew and grew until I knew I had to be Christian. Amen. Well, this is wonderful, and I really want to cultivate the friendship. We're almost out of time.
I would encourage you to read the book Canon Crossfire, the website, C-A-N-O-N, canoncrossfire.com. And you know what? Sin, it's vitally important we talk about that. Because, you know, in a philosophical sense, we know Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death. Sin is a wedge between us and God.
Sin is a wedge between us and each other very oftentimes. But, you know, sin is that which brings death. It is, philosophically, that which tends toward non-being. And so our problem is not just we need to have some New Year's resolutions or therapy. No, we need to be rescued, saved from sin, don't we?
Exactly. And it's such a different worldview than sort of the, you know, the culture. I think our culture is Christianized, but not Christian sometimes. But it's like, you know, it's not just about being nice to the other guy or doing a good thing or whatever. It's this is a very meaningful thing.
It's the meeting, you know, it's the meaning of life. And it's your ultimate purpose in this universe is driven by this Christian philosophy, this Christian theory. And focusing on sin as sin, you know, no matter how small it is, it's devastating to God and your relationship with God is very different than it being a small, well, it's just a minor thing that I do. It's a personality quirk. Yeah, exactly.
You know, this, that, like, no, this is huge. Sin is serious enough. That the second member of the Trinity, God the Son, Came from heaven to earth, took on a human body, and was nailed to the cross. Exactly. I mean, he died for sin.
Don't underestimate what sin means in the grand scheme of the real universe, which is the spiritual universe in heaven. You know, that's where we spend eternity. Yeah, indeed. And that is the focus of the universe. And again, it's just such a different worldview than, eh, let's be nice to each other.
Yeah, exactly. We should be nice to each other. But most of all, we should obey God and respond to his overtures as Matthew McWhorter did. He's our guest. We're out of time.
I'm so sorry. But folks, the gospel is true. 2 Peter 1.16 regarding the gospel. The Apostle Peter said, we have not followed cleverly devised fables when we made known unto you the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. God exists, truth exists, the Bible is God's written revelation, and Christ, the living Word, is the Son of God.
And remember, Jesus is as close by as a prayer. Alex McFarlane Ministries are made possible through the prayers and financial support of partners like you. For over 20 years, this ministry has been bringing individuals into a personal relationship with Christ and has been equipping people to stand strong for truth. Learn more and donate securely online at alexmacfarland.com. You may also reach us by calling 1-877-YESGOD and the number 1.
That's 1-877-Y-E-S-G-O-D-1. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you again on the next edition of the Alex McFarlane Show.
