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Carolina Journal Radio No. 816: Getting to the core of Apple’s decision to bypass N.C.

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
January 7, 2019 8:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 816: Getting to the core of Apple’s decision to bypass N.C.

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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January 7, 2019 8:00 am

When Apple announced plans for a major expansion in Austin, Texas, it appeared that Raleigh and North Carolina had “lost” another competition for a major economic development. That was despite the state’s willingness to give Apple substantial tax incentives. Jon Sanders, the John Locke Foundation’s director of regulatory studies, assesses the impact of Apple’s announcement on N.C. tax incentive policy. Free speech is one of the most fundamental rights protected in the U.S. Constitution’s Bill of Rights. But free speech faces continual attacks. David French, senior writer for National Review, worries about attacks on the culture of free speech. He explained his concerns during a recent visit to Raleigh. Association health plans offer an alternative to the Affordable Care Act in providing access to health insurance. Rep. Virginia Foxx, R-5th District, praised those plans during a recent floor speech in the U.S. House of Representatives. Millions of people know Brian Kilmeade as a co-anchor of the Fox News morning program. He’s also an author of books focusing on key episodes in American history. Kilmeade discussed his TV role, his historical research, and current events during a recent speech in Raleigh for the John Locke Foundation. A federal judge recently struck down the Affordable Care Act as unconstitutional. Jordan Roberts, John Locke Foundation health care policy analyst, assesses the ruling’s significance for health care policy in North Carolina and across the country.

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From Cherokee to current attack from the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Muskoka during the next hour, Donna Martinez, I will explore some major issues affecting our state free speech is a fundamental right, but it faces continual attacks David French of national review worries about attacks on the culture of free speech joy just to explain why Association health plans are designed to help provide more access to good health insurance North Carolina. Congresswoman recently praised the plants on the floor of the US House of Representatives. If you know the name Brian killed made it's probably because of his role as a morning coanchor on Fox news. During a recent visit to Raleigh to lead. Also emphasized his love of American history plus will delve into the likely impact of the recent court ruling striking down Obama care. Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline Apple has passed step North Carolina for a $1 billion facility that state officials were hoping to snag choosing Austin Texas instead. And while most of the media coverage has cast this as a loss for North Carolina. The John Locke foundation's John Sanders takes a bit of a different point of view, he's urging state and local officials not to conclude that North Carolina didn't offer a big enough package of tax incentives in order to lure Apple. John joins us now to talk about the issue.

Welcome back to the program. John thanks, nice to see you, John. Of course, is director of regulatory studies. Why did North Carolina get Apple I don't know all the reasons why North Carolina didn't get Apple Apple made reasons based on the business decision. They chose Austin overall in Austin over many other places for reasons best known to Apple.

One thing that I do know, based on economic research is that it's very very unlikely that our incentives package is the reason why they didn't come here and we have a sense of exactly what North Carolina offered up to Apple, not a full since we know the they have passed and then re-juice the transformative welfare incentives basically for four companies which would've have increase the amount of money they would be able to get back in tax rebates for him for their employees for you for the amount of people they hire and for how much that they're paying them and for how long they'd be able to to get property tax rebates for I think 30 years and some sums cases. So is it is a very, very lucrative offer.

It sounds like it's not just those seven tax rebates those incentives for people there, implying that the whole array of different things that yes I will be able to to possibly access like one North Carolina J Dick and those others as well talk a little bit more about the issue of how that J dig program works.

JD ID IG which stands for the C jobs development investment investment grants.

Okay, those been in existence for a number of years, but as a recent action taken by the Gen. assembly that appears now in retrospect to have been an effort to try to sweeten the deal. So this so to speak for Apple yeah is it might've been parabolas and monitor for Honeywell.

I don't know but yeah that does seem to be a part of the reason for it and what it did was for exhibit for companies that have executive pay that are greater than $175,000 a year would allow them to to get some employment tax rebates based on their salary. So at a certain level it's capped.

And so they don't get any additional rebate beyond paying someone over hundred 75,000, so this was would have increase to think the maximum from about 6000 to 16,000 that they would've been able to get back John what I think is curious about the issue of the incentives, the special breaks is that we essentially go out and decide that there's one particular company or maybe a couple of them or an industry that were going to favor with tax policy and public policy. What is all that mean for the other hundreds thousands of businesses are already operating in North Carolina and paying their taxes as law requires will practically speaking, as you suggesting are practically speaking, what it means is they have to front foot the bill for the newcomers. All the current residents of North Carolina current employers of North Carolina basically in the footing the bill for all of these things. Not exactly fair know it's not fair and that the thing is, everyone wants growth and that's what the politicians that are behind these things are are pushing they want something to say, look, we help bring growth about because everybody understands that growth more than pays for itself. We know that growth is good. The problem is with the incentives, especially when you juice a month whether the be done in the transformative projects incentives is that you're taking out all of the benefit and basically handing it over to the company so that the community doesn't shoulder the benefits as well as the cost we get the cost they get the benefits. John, do we know anything about research into this area. Certainly, there must be research that has gone to executives and said hey what you looking for when you decide you're going to locate somewhere is incentives something that they are looking for what research tends to find that incentives are not the not not the. The thing that these choices are made on them.

They don't swing on whether or not they're getting a certain level of incentives if that were the case, Amazon would've gone to to Fredericksburg Maryland just a little while ways away from where they ended up going or they would go to New Jersey instead of New York City because it was just a few miles away. What's interesting is it in 2015 there was some research published that looked at people and corporate executives in North Carolina whose companies were getting incentives and some and others whose companies were not asked them given a list of 19 things that were important to the business community and said which of these are the best and incentives ranked very low 15 to 16 local and state incentives ranked 15th and 16th. Out of that list out of 19 out of nine is hasty so the base on the top of the visitors. These 14 things we want to see more than incentives and they were having an educated and skilled workforce having low regulations. I was actually number two having low taxes and all in different kinds of taxes having access to good transportation.

That's fascinating because in a lot of ways. What you're describing those things that made the top of the list are really reforms that we have seen here in North Carolina over the last half-dozen years or so and that's what I think is is crucial about that finding is that we've been doing the right thing.

We've actually been seeing good results from it.

Forbes just came named us the number one state for business climate, so we were doing things right way.

We don't need to be chasing after these things just because other states are doing and John, you've written that it is your concern. I think fear is probably too strong a word, but your concern that state and local policymakers will see this as a loss because they didn't offer enough of a package to Apple yeah I do worry about that because we did offer quite a bit and so if there to come away with this thinking, oh gosh, we would've wanted, but we just didn't offer enough when we were offering so much and I think instead, they should see this ratification of what economists have have said, which is basically no these things are made for business purposes. If they take the incentives it usually is a cherry on top is usually not the thing that swings the whole decision in your writing about this. Which by the way it's available and a Carolina you make an interesting distinction between economic growth and economic development. What's the difference between those two things because I know your encouraging economic growth rate economic development policies are basically these kind of incentives policies where the government is taking a direct role in saying we want to we want to help these people over here we want to target this particular industry, and everyone's attention is focused on that and say all look is working on economic growth policies are when the government steps back as is working to keep taxes low. Rookie regulations lowered on it. Get out of the way of entrepreneurs and risktakers and and local mom-and-pop's who were able to expand and say we are going to make things better for them. We can't chart all of that, but we can see it after the fact when North Carolina starts seeing great economic results when we start getting nice mentions in publications like Forbes when the tax foundation says we've got the model tax system so that's what we've been talking with John Sanders.

He is director of regulatory studies for the John Locke foundation stay with us much more Carolina journal radio to come in just a moment government plays a key role in your life affecting your paycheck the way you educate your kids the way you do business. How can you tell if government is doing a good job making the right choices.

Spending tax dollars wisely. Carolina tackles those questions every day. The John Locke foundation publishes Carolina journal in print each month and on the web each you'll find exclusive investigative reports on topics. No one else is covering what else a rundown of the best new stories, editorials and opinion columns in North Carolina.

John Hood's daily Journal news stories and important public and the voices of the newsmakers themselves at Carolina journal radio in print on the air and on the web. You can find the information you welcome back to Carolina journal radio why Michiko got free speech is one of the most important rights protected in the U.S. Constitution's Bill of Rights free speech faces attacks and one source of those attacks comes from those who pursue so-called political correctness. Our next guest address this problem during a presentation for the John Locke foundation and the federal society along the national review Institute. David French is a senior writer for national review.

Welcome to the program. Thanks much.

Remi appreciated the free speech. We all know the free speech is importance, but we really have been seeing this of attack on free speech recently have yeah you know what we're dealing with now is less of a legal attack on free speech. Although there are important free-speech cases that the Supreme Court is decided, but the Supreme Court is been protecting free speech pretty consistently with some some exceptions, but pretty consistently for a while now to the point where your freedom. You probably have greater freedom now from government interference with your free-speech rights than virtually any time in American history of the problem that we have is cultural when the problem we have our shame campaigns. Other campaigns were people ironically use their free speech to try free-speech to try to silence free-speech. In other words, they have a right to boycott. For example you try to boycott economically ruling people you disagree with.

You have a right to launch a shame campaign so you want lunch.

A sham came shame campaign with the design to silence someone or employers have the right to fire workers whose politics that alike. So they use that right to cleanse their workforce of ideological disagreement. All of these things are a cultural effort were people in a very shortsighted way. I believe use certain free-speech rights to silence shame terminate people who engage in dissenting speech and is creating or creating a very very toxic environment. You mentioned that you think this is shortsighted.

Why are these people being shortsighted. I mean, there why they're being shortsighted. The reason it with the reason why they're doing it is there. There being a power by hate and rage which are contagious, hate and rage are contagious, and one of the things that when you do not respect free-speech rights. Ultimately, over time.

What you begin to have as you creep behind of a culture including your own opponents who do not respect free-speech rights and so what ends up happening is we we are in a position where the only people can be guaranteed to be able to speak freely are the people are in a majority of any given institution and it's a mistake that you fit to think that you're always going to be the majority in any given institution of free speech rights exist not to protect the majority majority speech has the protection of popularity. Free-speech rights exist to protect minority speech to protect dissenting speech including dissenting speech that we don't like and so I think as a matter of principle, what's best for our society in general we should protect the rights free-speech rights of people we disagree with, but it also happens to be in our long-term better interest as well because you press out five years 10 years 15 years 20 years. Do we know what the societies can look like. Do we know if our point of view point of use can be the one that's dominant no. Of course you don't.

If you protect the culture of free-speech five years 10 years 15 years 20 years from now you'll know that you will at least have the opportunity to share your views.

That is the voice of David French. He is senior writer for national review.

This is a different sort of challenge than the legal challenge. Yes, involving free-speech. How is this challenge different in the sense of the way you go about attacking yeah you know with the legal challenge free-speech file lawsuits to deal with that and I filed many many lawsuits in my career defending the rights of people agree with and and the people. I don't agree with but defending the right of free speech defending rights of religious liberty in a way that's kinda straightforward you see government censorship you move to stop government censorship you collect attorneys fees and you go on the cultural threat is much more insidious and much more difficult to combat. There are laws that can help. So for example laws or protect anonymity or donor privacy prevent people who give money to causes especially controversial causes to prevent them from suffering reprisals because of state-mandated disclosure that the legal protection when the culture free-speech starts to falter and that's a very important legal protection are not going to deal with the loss. The marketplace of ideas just through just through anonymous speech or just through donor privacy is a piece of it is not the whole, the whole is you have to make that cultural argument first free-speech you have to have to step up make the argument defend the right of free speech defend the value of free speech just can't assume anymore that people will understand and and respect free-speech for what it is you have to make the case for free speech is of value, even as you defend the right of free speech even as you defend the ability of people to speak freely and private circumstance and circumstances.

Private and public, you mentioned donor privacy. I will back to that some people may hear this and say wait a minute, isn't transparency important that we want us we want to know who is delivering these messages that were hearing it's it's important to know who's behind these things.

Why is donor privacy such an important piece of protecting free speech. Yeah, that's a great question because it advocates for greater and greater and greater disclosure of the way in which people fund nonprofits and other entities that advance values and ideas that they agree with these at transparency were all the time you want more transparency want more transparency and it sounds great because he is against transparency but the transparency obligations for the government, not for the private citizen. So when we want transparency in a free society. Transparency is a government obligation. Privacy is the individuals in the privacy respects the individual liberty and protects the individual liberty so it's literally we would like. Praia transparency for the government privacy for the individual. The government doesn't like that government likes to flip that around and have privacy for the government. In other words, no opaque processes, opaque proceedings where they want a high degree of public trust in the government and at the same time a low degree of governmental trust in the public and so I think it's exactly the opposite of what a free people should seek if we had a reversal of the privacy that we now have what would be some of the negative consequences was a queen all the same consequences. You see, now, in a world where you know I a quarterback and when a Heisman Trophy and immediately have tweets dredged up from when he was 14 years old and used to humiliate him on the best day of his life or what we saw as Kevin Hart announced to be the host of the Oscars and multi-many years old tweets or drug companies fired summarily or step force to step aside in less than 24 hours. I mean, that's the other two examples from this week mean you can just go on and on and on of examples of people lost their job loss or public public reputation is been humiliated and driven from public life because of you know people who use the search function on twitter. You know when you have a search function that can work much more globally on people's overall political activities not just twitter and Facebook, but the money that they give to the causes that they love. You can see, and you already have seen some people sort of hounded out of their jobs because of money that they've given you would see that even more. In the brief amount of time that we have left.

Do you have much confidence that we are going to see a seachange and have people work inclined to support free-speech culturally than we have seen in recent years know I think it's going to have to get worse before it gets better in others. This concept you often hear and like addiction, drug addiction, that someone asked at rock bottom anything in a rage addiction.

We may have to hit a version a rock-bottom sort of a version of where we realize that that the misery in and the misery that we experience in the suppression of ideas that we experience is is so extreme that people begin to rebel unfortunate right now. I think these are the online sensors are winning well on that cheery note that we want to thank you David French senior writer for national review for joining us here Carolina jewelry thanks thank you will have more on Carolina journal radio just if you love freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina it's one stop shopping for North Carolina's freedom You'll find links to John Locke foundation blogs on the days news Carolina reporting and quick takes Carolina journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and want foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education from the James G Martin Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council. That's right, all in one place North Carolina that's North Carolina spelled out North Carolina Try it today. North Carolina is changing not just day-to-day but outward to our minute to minute and 2nd to 2nd, you keep up with the changes, especially the ones that affect you, your family, your home, your job, make the John Locke foundation and Carolina journal part of your social media diet on Facebook like the John Locke foundation like Carolina.

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You'll also support freedom. Don't forget log on to today by something nice and help defend freedom. Support the John Locke foundation will go back to Carolina journal radio I Mitch coca the Trump administration finalized this summer. A rule governing Association health plans.

These plans allow small businesses and the self-employed, to band together based on their industry or their location. Together they can then purchase health insurance. The rule followed up in executive order designed to provide alternatives to the affordable care act or Obama care during a recent speech on the floor of the US House of Representatives, North Carolina Congresswoman Virginia Fox offered an update on Association health plans over a year and half ago we passed a small business health fair to say small businesses were hit hard by flawed mandates, soaring costs and limited choices under Obama care. The education workforce committee worked hard to produce a small business health fairness act, which expanded healthcare options and lower cost for working families by encouraging small businesses to come together through Association health plans and negotiate for lower costs on behalf of their employees.

In October of last year. Pres. Trump issued an executive order that built on the solutions in that bill directing the Department of Labor to remove barriers and make Association health plans a viable option for businesses and their employees will it's working in my home state of North Carolina. Individuals in the hospitality industry will soon have access to a new Association health plan that provides affordable, comprehensive coverage, nearly half a million workers in North Carolina alone will have options they didn't have before. Thanks to Association health plans in Oklahoma, Chambers of commerce at the state local level are working with some of the smallest businesses around a form Association health plans and allow these talented individuals to keep doing what they really want to do innovating and creating jobs only they'll be able to create even farmers in Minnesota, Nebraska, are finding ways to come together for better bargaining power that puts people in their healthcare choices. First, Association health plans put people in charge. They empower small businesses to offer the same benefits that large companies can provide and allow employees to choose coverage options that work best for them at the education workforce committee. We've been proud to do our part to bring about this sustainable healthcare solution for millions of Americans. I welcome the news that's represented Virginia Fox. She's a North Carolina Republican who has led the U.S. House committee on education and the workforce. Just helping the benefits of Association health plans whose plans are designed to help small businesses in the self-employed. They been touted as one alternative to the affordable care act or Obama care, the federal government finalize rules for those plans back in the summer term with more Carolina journal radio in a moment where doubling down on freedom at Carolina journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet. And now get twice as much freedom when you also listen to our podcast headlock available on iTunes headlock is a little bit different. It's a no holds barred discussion that challenges softheaded ideas from the left and the right, like Carolina journal radio headlock is smart and timely but with headlock you'll hear more about the culture wars get some more humor as well. We guarantee great information and a good time double down with S. Listen to Carolina journal radio each week and listen to headlock to remember, you can listen to or subscriber download each week iTunes Carolina journal radio and headlock just what you need to stay informed and stay entertained both brought to you in the name of freedom by the John Locke foundation.

Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I Mitch coca, millions of people know Brian kill me as an anchor on the Fox news television morning program but is also an author interested primarily in telling stories about important pieces of American history. John Locke foundation audience recently heard Brian kill me discuss both aspects of his work during a public presentation in Raleigh. He started first with talking about Fox news. This is just a remarkable opportunity so people say work a lot I say can you keep a secret. I'm not working because I be the most annoying accountant.

The most annoying Jim coach because I be talking about the news I be talking about tromping to be taught about Obama and I be talking about the ball report which by the way can you lengthen this whole study a little longer. I don't so the passion I have is for the country and the one thing about Fox news people say they are the right to you leftist guys will moderate this person's more conservative. All we all we get up every day. The one consistency is we know we live in the best country ever created and by being born here or big week coming here. We hit lotto and I think I get a perspective on that because of the householder grew up in, because the people around me and because of instinct.

Just look at American history and you see how unlikely were to be been created, let alone to survive, let alone survive what will thrive little become the number one economic and military power. The world is a self there's gotta be somebody pull the strings for this nation were not perfect. We make mistakes, but we admitted we get better, we grow faster and harder. People get upset from the outside and the same in America's report to see the argument you see the investigations, no we have different points of view but were all point to the right direction.

Make the country better. It just so happens that we have the best ideas how to make the country and other people don't agree with us around of stone don't don't understand that yet. Brian kill meets most recent history book focuses on Andrew Jackson. Specifically, the North Carolinians critical role in the battle of New Orleans at the end of the war of 1812.

Kill me, reminded his audience that Jackson was once revered by the American public. What is happened over the last few years. For the first time include present when he country was founded, and when he died when he was buried in the Hermitage that includes prior to the Civil War. His grade was to file there's a group in New Orleans who live and breathe every day to find a way to take a statue down at a New Orleans in the water try to take off the 20 down some kind of put a stop to that. Or pause so that's what I think were in danger of. And that's why want to double down and talk about history with people to care like you guys because for some reason our history, which we know were not perfect, but I think what's great about America's were trying to be. We go back in time we'll see Jackson's perfect Columbus is fantastic general Washington had no weaknesses. We know what weaknesses could ever justify slavery. It's unthinkable that the smartest men on the planet could somehow justify even though on some level I think they all knew was wrong. Never justify that is a lot of things were doing. Now the generations in the future will laugh and say one of those people.

2018. Thinking I never thought history should be looked at like that.

I think you should study it not judge, and that's my hope that when introduced to different stories along the way, I would go out of my way to make sure they're accurate. I am not interested in writing for the Harvard professor. These professors write for themselves anyway not to be read on the just and the so-called average everyday American who is so very busy lot to pick up and put down that book whenever they have a chance. One of the kids are crying out running to a game we have to go work overtime go to an event that's in my mind after his history lesson kill meat offered some predictions for the new year to get something done. I am so II don't mind clapping in your conservative that might mean compromise. I want to debate who got the better deal, rather than debate who benefited politically from the lack of a deal. I am so sick of it. Well, the Republicans go to pay the price deal at the ballot while Democrats can responsible for the shutdown, while Republicans are going to be per if they don't build a wall is going to get the electric motivated to vote. I am so done with that argument, I think you also have to be ready not to get everything you want. I'm okay with not getting video will because the way our system was set up were not supposed to. What happens is if you make your ideas better and you communicated better.

What happens is at the ballot box will end up with over 60 centers. The majority the house and then guess what you get everything you want and virtually everything you want, which is always a moderate in Susan Collins and a Joe mansion on the other side, though, so yeah that's gonna be a problem but that just we were set up so what are Brian kill meets political predictions for the coming year. I predictable and the smaller things gotta wrap up.

I think before the new Congress takes over. I predict that Democrats will overstep their investigations and then understand this a part of Donald Trump who actually wants to fight every day is like Mike Tyson when he was 19 it out as a part of them were like you and I would be so stressed by this we have, say, or of what I needed is a part of who wants that edge. I don't know if you heard but he's on Twitter now and I think you had 12 tweets before I walked up here today so that that's I predict I just hope this sums going to surprise us. I just hope it doesn't come from ISIS who is starting the rumble that the try to do something. New York City we can never take our eye off the ball.

There, and I love the fact that we reasserted ourselves in a rack at government now wants us there. They no longer take us for granted.

I think Iran is overplayed their hand big time and I see things get marginally better. The one good thing is I think Israel is no longer isolated like it was there's a lot of Middle East nations are working with Israel in a way limit.

Many people didn't think possible. So I think think that's heartening. I also take part in this.

I don't like when you put data present Withers Obama, Clinton, Bush or Trump you put down us and with the French have done with the Cronin's tight suits and his older wife cut into smugly putting up with Trump in tolerating Trump.

I forgot how to play Trump will congratulations you and you 26% approval rating up the up the taxes so high in your country only wants to work three to half days a week that this while protests in the street.

You have relinquished, backed off because green energy is great when you can fly like a private jet. Like Bernie Sanders or Al Gore and show up at a at a green rally but when the average person is barely making ends meet finds out the gases over seven dollars a liter a gallon. Whatever measurement they're using and it affects their life.

They can go on the Internet. They get a rally they can send a message.

Congratulations you put out. Trump is a 46% approval rating 22, when the riots happen you will vacation this weekend so there's a reason why this Brazilian leader, just one is a reason why Australia just rotated through.

There's a reason why verticals on a farewell tour and Teresa Mae has never looked more comfortable dancing that she has recently presenting for exit ideas of the wealthy ideas. Most professional politicians are fallen on their face. So before you critical. Trump and Saiz nave and dozens in the position. What are you doing that's Brian kill me morning coanchor on Fox news and author of several American history books, including his most recent book on Andrew Jackson and the war of 1812 kill me delivered these remarks to a crowd of more than 300 people in Raleigh together by the John Locke foundation will return with more Carolina journal radio commitment to truth and transparency in government. That is the mission of Carolina journal and we are proud to deliver and now proud to tell you the North Carolina press Association has honored to members of our team with awards reporting and writing, that's right, we really do deliver award-winning journalism we shine the light on government spending, reveal the truth about boondoggles and dig deep into programs paid for with your tax money.

We keep you in the know in a way other media outlets don't in our reach and influence are growing all of our outlets. We reach more than 1 million N. Carolinians each month so make sure you're one of them. Our monthly print edition arrives in your mailbox every month. Our online daily news site Carolina has fresh stories, opinion pieces, and more. The award-winning Carolina journal team I reporters make government accountable to you.

Call 1866 JL FINF0 for your free subscription, welcome back to Carolina journal radio Donna Martinez. It is unconstitutional.

That is the ruling of a federal judge in Texas about the affordable care act, commonly known as Obama care, US District Court Judge Reed O'Connor ruled on the case filed by 20 Republican attorneys general. So why did the judge ruled this way is North Carolina impacted and what does this all mean for the future of the delivery of healthcare and health insurance. Jordan Roberts is healthcare analyst for the John Locke foundation. He's been taking a look at the ruling and he joins us now.

Jordan welcome back to be here, so tell us first about the ruling on what basis is Obama care unconstitutional about the individual mandate that was the part of Obama care that basically force people to acquire insurance or pay some sort of tax or penalty if they didn't comply with that. So during 2017. The Republicans Mark and Congress passed the tax cuts and jobs act and in our bill. They zeroed out the penalty for the individual mandate. If you remember back to the original Supreme Court case it upheld the affordable care act. Justice Roberts opinion said that the individual mandate penalty was a tax and so that fell under congresses full authority to tax and levy taxes and raise revenue. So now that the individual penalty is zeroed out. This is a nonrevenue raising legal coercion by the unconstitutional unconstitutional coercion by the federal government.

We have often heard some of the critics of the affordable care act referred to it as a house of cards and that it will implode on itself right is that what we're seeing here basically said the Obama administration argued that there is there's three main parts of the affordable care act that really get to the core of what is trying to do the individual mandate that required people to have health insurance and many of these other two parts.

What are called community rating and guaranteed issue, provisions, and that helps prohibits insurers from denying an chain offering different coverage to people with pre-existing conditions.

So without the individual mandate, which cannot be severed from these other two parts, the whole law falls down when one of them is unconstitutional.

So it's either all three, the provisions working together or if one falls away. None of this works.

That's right nutso justice Reed O'Connor said that because this is now a unconstitutional tax or unconstitutional provision in the affordable care act in the whole law must fall down. Jordan does this apply to North Carolina anyway. So here's where we are right now we have a district or a federal court judge that give us this ruling, but he didn't really give any action and were waiting for that action now so you have possibility in the states that they could codify some of the parts of the affordable care act make it law in their states. You have Congress that could potentially codify some of these parts of the law, and since the president's desk saying that these are to be laws through and through. No matter what the court decision. So really in a limbo stage right now is a lot of different action that can happen were really ready waiting on the appeals process by other Democrat attorneys general or for the ruling from the Texas judge. What does this mean for people who currently buy their health insurance through the affordable care act so that's another thing were kind of in a limbo there because starting January 1, 2019 when there is no revenue raising tax on the individual mandate different levels of government could just choose not to enforce the raw state. State governments could choose not to enforce the raw different federal agencies can choose not to enforce the laws that's really where are right now there's just so much uncertainty and were in limbo because of how the judge ruled on this case so many moving parts here in terms of public policy questions and decisions that need to be made.

Also in terms of legal questions potentially ladles and other people saying hey how can I make this apply to my state or make sure that my estate is shielded from this type of ruling him.

We know there's a lot of unanswered questions better Jordan we been talking about this darn thing for years since Emily was 2010 right in the affordable care act of first came to be. You as a healthcare policy analyst stem look at all sorts of different options and you something interesting in your commentary about this ruling as we move forward, you have challenge people. In fact, urge people to not look at this discussion of how we deliver care and how we provide insurance as either doing something with Obama care maybe nibbling around the edges of that door going to this new proposal we hear from many on the left about Medicare for all rates are. That's always just baffled me in this debate that seems like it's a binary discussion that's presented to us. We can either choose to operate with this flawed Obama care law. You have to move to something that delegates more powers sensually in the federal government, and you know I think the biggest thing to remember here is that this is a perfect example of when you centralize all this decision-making power in one point, the federal government court case is different, congresses, and all these things can affect such a big part of the American economy, and so I think this shows that you are we there are all other alternatives, and that involves pushing these decisions back to the state governments and letting the states determine what's best for their health insurance markets instead of a one-size-fits-all DC approach to healthcare will if we don't do a one-size-fits-all DC approach than we want to try to put something together here in North Carolina gives people more choices and yet more options of how we go about that absolutely so ideal perfect world we would have full control of the health insurance markets through the state and state could you know remove some the regulations that prevent competition between insurers and we could have a true competitive market where consumers are purchasing insurance firm ensures the insurance that they want and there's no regulations. There's no excessive taxes is just open market where the state regulators are in charge and allow some a lot of free moving competition. What you're describing really to me sounds like just common sense than letting people choose what it is that works for them at whatever point they are in their life and for some people that may be full, complete coverage where they they're willing to pay a premium in order to have a very low deductible and have everything under the sun cover other people may say look, I just only want insurance for something catastrophic happens to be particularly millennial's younger people taking a look and saying maybe I'm I don't need to go this very traditional route, absolutely. I think that just speaks of the argument that we need more choices in healthcare. People need to have different options rather than just you getting their insurance to their work, or through the Obama care insurance places so I believe that this is a step in the right direction that we need to remove this one-size-fits-all DC healthcare framework and really give the states options to give their consumers and their state the products that they they want and they need and what the market drive innovation and drive the correct coverage that our patients need. I know that one of the issues that you've been looking at the state level that would indeed allow more access and and lower costs and work with innovations has to do with something called certificate of need state law that essentially puts all sorts of rules and and and depresses competition.

Why is that so important to you to help people understand what that does to the marketplace. While certificate of need is just works in direct contradiction with a free market in innovation it does not allow the market to determine the participants in a dozen allow consumers to buy products based off of their needs and so freeing healthcare facilities from the certificate of needs that require state permission slip to build new healthcare facilities that just freeze up the markets responsive to consumer demand, which is what we really rock in the healthcare sector today is just one of the many issues that Jordan Roberts is analyzing and writing about how you can read all of his work at John Locke.Oregon, particularly his analysis of this new ruling out of the Texas court about oh Obama care being unconstitutional. If you could find it again it down and at the locker room blog Jordan Roberts. Thanks so much. Thank you. That's all the time we have for the program this week. Thank you for listening on behalf of my cohost Mitch. Okay I'm Donna Martinez hope you'll join us again next week for another edition of Carolina Journal radio Carolina Journal radio is a program of the John Locke foundation to learn more about the John Locke foundation including donations support programs like Carolina Journal radio send email to development John Locke call 166 GLS info 166-553-4636 Carolina Journal radio is the John line foundation airline is maintaining Carolina broadcasting system, Inc. all opinions expressed on this program are solely those did not merely reflect the station.

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