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Carolina Journal Radio No. 855: Leadership shakeup for UNC system

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai
The Truth Network Radio
October 7, 2019 8:00 am

Carolina Journal Radio No. 855: Leadership shakeup for UNC system

Carolina Journal Radio / Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

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October 7, 2019 8:00 am

The University of North Carolina System’s controversial chairman has resigned from that post. Harry Smith’s decision shakes up the university’s Board of Governors as that board deals with other leadership issues. That includes the search for a new system president and for a new chancellor at the flagship campus in Chapel Hill. Rick Henderson, Carolina Journal editor-in-chief, assesses UNC’s leadership challenges. Sarah Lawrence College political scientist Samuel Abrams unleashed a wave of criticism when he decided to write in the New York Times about the lack of ideological diversity on college campuses. Abrams traveled to Raleigh this year to discuss the controversy during a speech for the James G. Martin Center for Academic Renewal. Abrams shared themes from that presentation with Carolina Journal Radio. State lawmakers agree N.C. counties should replace voting machines that lack a paper record. Disagreement remains about when. Counties have asked for another extension of a deadline to make the change. The extension would extend past the 2020 elections. You’ll hear highlights from legislative debate about that proposal. The controversial N.C. House vote to override Gov. Roy Cooper’s veto of the state budget bill has led to a war of words between the chamber’s top Democrat and Republican. You’ll learn why House Minority Leader Darren Jackson, D-Wake, labeled his Republican counterparts “liars.” You’ll hear the response from House Speaker Tim Moore, R-Cleveland, about Jackson’s partisan motives. Some politicians, including Cooper, want to move toward greater use of electric vehicles. Forcing the change could lead to unintended negative environmental consequences. That’s the conclusion from Donald van der Vaart, John Locke Foundation senior fellow. Van der Vaart explains how a large increase in electric vehicle use could affect other energy resources.

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Jan Markell
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Donna Martinez and Mitch Kokai

From chair to current and the largest city to the smallest and from the statehouse into the schoolhouse Carolina Journal radio your weekly news magazine discussing North Carolina's most of public policy events and issues welcome to Carolina Journal radio why Michiko got during the next hour, Donna Martines, I will explore some major issues affecting our stick, a college professor's recent New York Times column shined light then generated heat in the debate over ideological diversity on campus will discuss the column and the controversy it caused. State lawmakers agree North Carolina counties should replace voting machines that have no paper record the outstanding question is when will your debate the controversial statehouse vote to override Gov. Cooper's budget veto is led to a war of words between the houses top Democrat at its top Republican and will learn about potential unintended negative consequences of a government push for more electric vehicle use.

Those topics are just ahead. First, Donna Martinez joins us with the Carolina Journal headline one more thing, or perhaps to learn even more than that.

It's the shorthand headline out of the UNC system without leadership changes that we've learned about 10 reporters at Carolina. Journal the first to learn about several major developments, editor-in-chief Rick Anderson joins us now to talk about what is happening with the system in North Carolina as that we see people moving in and out with. Welcome back to the program. Thank you so the board of governors. Matt just a few days ago and all sorts of things happened during a couple of days that they were meeting set the stage for a set with reporters from Carolina Journal being over there.

It looks like chancellors were having their say a little bit of the rumblings of unhappiness among chancellors right there their openings at several universities. The system that have been vacant for all time. Western Carolina is the prime example that with the Chancellor's position has been open for I guess going on two years they'll all after the former chancellor of the past with cancer.

There was a lot of junk jostling back and forth with who will be the Chancellor, including presumably a couple of members of the board of governors who were looking at that the Chancellor's position at University. North Carolina's flagship campus of Chapel Hill has been open since Carol fold all walked away under pressure after the silent Sam incidents there. The president's position of the entire system is being held down by interim Bill Roper of the physician.

Dr. Roper was the head of UNC healthcare system for about 20 years and so there's a lot of turmoil chancellors at the meeting the first day of the to be the first of the two-day meetings basically set up as it look whoever's going around the system eventually needs to be a person who has the confidence of the Chancellor's confidence of the faculty and some thought that you bring some stability because there. The board has been accused, rightfully so, of micromanaging an individual campus affairs and the board of governors doesn't usually do that sort of thing so the chancellors were upset and when that happened the next day we get the word that there was some additional disruptions taking place in the board came out with a new policy that new chancellors will be hired, there would be an incentive-based pay system for them to some extent in which they would be rewarded for graduation rates for recruitment and retention of students and things like that and Dr. Roper made a statement during the press availability afterwards it was chancellors were going to pay them for performance. We will pay people for breathing, which may have been a subtle shot of some of the board of governors, members of a miniature becoming chancellors of her cushy job that drew some additional grumbling and then things took off from there. Let's talk about some of those things. And because their big news in North Carolina at first of all, the chairman of the board of governors and and keep in mind this is a very powerful very influential sought after position when you get it. Usually I don't leave it unless you're pushed out but Harry Smith says he's leaving the leadership role. Staying on the board yes likewise got well.

He says he has other business interests and wants to spend more time with his family.

That's always the several stock answer but said he's got new business ventures is getting involved in that the board of governors leadership is taking up way more of his time than he thought it would. And way more than he could afford to have it take up and so he's going to step down. Effective 1 October which may be after this program airs but nonetheless I he will be remaining on the board.

He is recommended that the vice chairman Randy Ramsey be named as the successor to Ramsey and Ann Smith are very close are some factions on that board, but Smith of course is been no source of controversy for quite a while. Why is that what about him is his personality is vision making what a lot of different things. First of all, he came in he sortable the china shop. He came in there to change things to do to make things different to get people uncomfortable and he certainly did that he had an awful lot to do with.

I think the departure of Pres. Margaret spellings, who left at the first of the year and that's why Bill Roper is there. He was involved very intimately in business at East Carolina University which is where he is an alumnus, but he's a member of the board of governors. The entire system hasn't supposed to have no direct role in East Carolina was involved with the departure of their former chancellor Cecil Stayton and ECU has never Chancellor down Garlock and so Smith was a disruptive force sometimes disruptive forces so you have to know somebody makes a mess of money is to clean it up the mess. Heaven was working. Why did Harry Smith that believe that he needed to shake things out. What was the problem. There are the same for leadership of the Gen. assembly because you had in the past had Tom Ross, who was summarily dismissed from the president's position before Harry Smith was chairman of the board of governors who seem to be someone is ago will all get along someone who was going to kowtow to the to the left-leaning faculty in the left-wing chancellors and the like, and so they wanted someone who was more performance-based someone with a bit with a stronger business background. Someone who is going to be seen as introducing entrepreneurial aspects of the UNC's operations. Now, he did a lot of born accomplished a lot of those things but kept tuition under control. They convinced the Gen. assembly to do the North Carolina promise program, which is the $500 tuition per semester at several institutions and was hoping to get more to embrace that model. There are a lot of positive things that were done while Harry Smith was the chairman of the board of governors, but unfortunately because he tended to be a lightning rod. He forgot he could get his own way, to some extent in these things, and that tended to knock the positive news off all the headlines and he claimed it was her like a media conspiracy against him or whatever but basically you know these things could have been done with much more fanfare and that and could have really shown us stronger face for you and see you. That's unfortunate. And while all this is going on course, there is a major search underway for the next leader of the UNC system.

This is considered a plum job if you ask anyone who's in academia whether they agree or disagree with what happens on North Carolina campuses. They will tell you that a lot of people in this country want to have that job. So the search is underway. There had been some talk that maybe one or more members of the board of governors might be interested in that there'd been talk as well.

The doctor, Bill Roper, the interim president of the system might want to get permanently but then came news from him.

That's right on the day after Harry Smith announced he was stepping down as chairman of the board of governors.

Dr. Roper announced that he was going to be leaving as the president June 30 of next year.

The search committee, which is led by Kim Strack, former Executive Director, the State Board of elections was going to start a formal was as I started formal search with the actual process is going to get really into the nitty-gritty with your interviews, in-person interviews and things like that in the spring and Dr. Roper said in June. I'm out here.

I will this my time, he was originally going to retire as the president of the UNC healthcare in May of this year before he took the presidency of the whole UNC system so it's not as if that there was thought that he would be a long time, or unless he expressed an interest in actually doing the job permanently, but the Dr. Roper will be 71, when that an extra comes around so it would be unusual for him to take on a job like that for more than a couple of years anyway despite the fact that this is considered really a job that to many people. Academia would want leading the UNC system with its reputation.

Is there any concern and or is Carolina Journal getting any rumblings behind-the-scenes that because of what's happened with the role of Harry Smith and some of the turmoil that has so happening over the past months that that might put off some people who otherwise would be interested in leading the system we heard a lot of we heard a number of people say privately that they would not serve in senior positions at UNC campuses. As long as the current structure of leadership was there at the board of governors and goes beyond Harry Smith and so will see you read it all. Carolina as well as the monthly print edition Rick Anderson is editor-in-chief. Thank you, thank you stay with us much more Carolina Journal writing to come in just a moment tired of fake names tired of reporters with political axes to grind. What you need to be reading Carolina Journal honest, uncompromising, old-school journalism, you expect and you need even better, the monthly Carolina Journal is free to subscribers sign up at Carolina. You'll receive Carolina Journal newspaper in your mailbox each month. Investigations into government spending revelations about boondoggles. The powerful leaders are and what they're doing in your name and with your money. We shine a light on it all with the stories and angles. Other outlets barely cover but there's a bonus print newspapers published monthly by our daily news site gives you the latest news each and every day lot onto Carolina once, twice, even three times a day won't be disappointed. It's fresh news if you'd like a heads up on the daily news sign up for daily email do that Carolina Carolina Journal, rigorous, unrelenting, old-school journalism, we hold government accountable for you will go back to Carolina Journal radio I Michiko guy, a tenured professor at Sarah Lawrence College wanted to raise awareness about the imbalance of ideological viewpoints on campus, but when Samuel Abrams wrote about the issue for the New York Times. He unleashed a series of criticisms, the James J Martin Center for academic renewal invited Abrams to Raleigh to tell his story by bring attention to ideological diversity. A big part of it has to do with the fact that I spent years looking at why our society is seemingly so polarized and why we have so much anger in in this country and when I realize that were not able to talk and that were shutting down discourse and debate. I realized that's going to hurt our ability to build meaningful connections with others meaningful neighborhoods meaningful communities and I said geez education is really cornerstone to being able to have these conversations which lead to again a healthy and virtuous civic life, and if I were not able to have that education and do what were supposed to do in higher Ed campuses, which is debate, argue, question, and do so openly, without feeler of reprisal and retribution. Even if the idea seemingly unpopular then our future as a nation is at stake now. That may sound extreme how I'm tying my little corner of the world and end free speech and viewpoint diversity into the health of that that this nation, but I do believe that if we can't talk in our nation's great democratic experiment really is a risk, so I'm hopeful that people will hear just how important it is that we maintain the ability to debate disk and have this discourse because whenever you solve our nation's problems.

We can't like take this issue to the New York Times. The New York Times is our newspaper of record for for the nation. It's it's widely read and it has an editorial board that I very much admire one of these at its editorial board is that they told me on a number of occasions that their mission is to publish things that people need to hear the people need to read that people need to talk about. So when I explained to the board. My research and presented them with this problem. I'm very grateful that they said yes this is something we need to talk about you. At its very core viewpoint diversity has nothing to do with the particular ideology. While a lot of folks were right of center you don't like to talk about it because college campuses are overtly progressive. No one should have a problem with viewpoint diversity. No one should have a problem with his statement. Ideas should be able to be debated and erred freely.

If you do have a problem with that. We should talk because this again is that the benchmark to how we proving how we progress as a society. Ideas are only as good as they are if they can stand up to in a very aggressive challenge in and debate and no one should have a problem with that.

If you're on the left or the right.

It should be a universal ideal, especially on a higher Ed campuses. That is what our mission statements. In most cases are about. Not every school has a mission statement like that.

Some are much more technical and orientation, but most especially those who do humanities and liberal arts really valued debate and I'm trying to protect that debate. What was your message to New York Times readers. One of the key ideas with the New York Times piece was indicate that there are number of very important groups on our college and university campuses, and we often forget one of them. We always think about the student students are front and center. We also hear about presidents and Provost to make a lot of noise. The a lot of attention when they speak they they can shift that the ground course we hear about our faculty, the ones who do a lot of the teaching. But when you are removed from higher Ed you don't really realize that there's another powerful group in that very powerful group is very large group of what I call midtier student facing administrators there huge millions of them. They set the tone and tenor of what goes on on college and collegiate life, generally from orientation programs, which are huge. By the way, because a student comes in and is then told here's what college is about. Here's how to think about things to how conflict and ideas are managed and debated in in residence halls and dormitories to campus community centers, whether it's a Jewish center in LGBT Q A+ center and every American center to student success Center.

These places these these individuals are everywhere. They set the tone and the tenor the rules of what of engagement and what can be talked about and how it can be talked about and too few people realize how powerful they were, so that the times peacefully had two key pieces to it.

The first was to recognize there is this pillar of people that have a huge influence that we need to remember are very real and very powerful. And then the fact that they are a very progressive in the most progressive left-leaning group of people on campus. It's important to mention that they don't come into their jobs necessarily trying to shut down debate. They just may not realize it. If everyone is incredibly left of center and there surrounded by other people who were left of center they may not realize that their programming is lopsided and that's what I said in the piece was not to indict them for being evil or doing anything that very important distinction fits. And I don't think there intrinsically evil and all it's to say that the material in how they're going about their jobs.

I think is unbalanced and that we need to make correction and try to bring more balance in and that was the goal of the piece were speaking with Samuel Abrams, professor at Sarah Lawrence College in recent featured speaker in Raleigh for the James T Martin Center for academic renewal. People could've reacted to your column by saying no, you're wrong, but that's not what happened. Yes, I expect a lot of people say no you're wrong there. She people have also when you're in higher Ed, the, the cardinal virtue of something is to say aha maybe that's wrong. How are you wrong let me show you why you're wrong. Let me give you some other evidence to the contrary.

Let me present you with a narrative that says actually there more centrist story. In some cases, right of center. I didn't see any of that. No one has been able to vigorously or really challenge the narrative whatsoever in bed.

Sadly, it appears as if administrators at Sarah Lawrence and students.

I don't know the details exactly but wanted to come after me and and basically I have received numerous threats and property destruction and harassing phone calls, slanderous allegations and and the song it's been pretty unpleasant at the same time made it sort of proves my point of why viewpoint diversity is under attack. Many people think that if you challenge the prevailing wisdom there could be consequences. There have been consequences to me that's been unambiguously clear and and and and sadly it makes a case for why people are afraid to call out another form of injustice, which is what this is when you have an imbalanced intellectual environment you're willing to talk about this experience, but what kind of impact does it have on others. I think for better or for worse, the impact is it promotes silence and it promotes conformity with the with the prevailing behavior and and outlooks on our college and university campuses. That all being said, the reaction of this piece is been shockingly huge. I've received tens of thousands of emails and support from parents from students from other administrators and faculty from Board of Trustees members to various presidents to the general public on the whole, I think by shining a light on this problem.

People have suddenly realized, yes, there really is an issue. Yes, we really do need to to address it addressing it's gonna take time it's going to be painful. It's going to be very, very slow, but I think it's now in the public's consciousness. I think people are aware that viewpoint diversity is a real problem. We need to have more event. The absence of it again. It harms our community harms educational experience farms harms our ability to be civic in this country and I'm schools are acting to it. There groups like the heterodox Academy and fire, and the American Council of trustees act and others that are working very hard to make these changes and I think generally in the world of ideas.

This is an idea that people are now beginning to accept as there is this group of people. They have some power. We need to monitor them a little more carefully. We need to modify how they behave to promote the sort of real and positive academic and intellectual environment that's Prof. Samuel Abrams of Sarah Lawrence College.

He spoke recently in Raleigh about viewpoint diversity is presentation sponsored by the James T Martin Center for academic renewal will return with more Carolina Journal radio in a moment. If you have freedom we got great news to share with you now. You can find the latest news, views, and research from conservative groups across North Carolina all in one place North Carolina it's one stop shopping for North Carolina's freedom movement and North Carolina You'll find links to John my foundation blogs on the days news Carolina reporting and quick takes Carolina Journal radio interviews TV interviews featuring CJ reporters and let foundation analysts, opinion pieces and reports on higher education James T Martin Center for academic renewal, commentary and polling data from the scimitar's Institute and news and views from the North Carolina family policy Council.

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That's a lot for them and it would have to turn around and switch out their machines. Thereafter, so this provides a six-month extension extension would be optional. It would be at the request of local boards make clear that our intent as a general assembly is that we moved to more secure systems that are paper-based and also allow for human readable receipts to be a key factor in whether or not the state board of elections grants any extension other lawmakers don't believe counties ought to be forced to switch out voting machines before the 2020 election, Republican Dennis Riddell.

I've talked to my local board of director about this proposal and they assured me that changing in the middle of the 2020 election cycle would actually be more difficult than just staying with the DRE machines and more problematic for them.

You're asking the counties have push legislation. I did pass the house by the way to the toilet.

The certification you're asking them now to I think in haste make a very important decision of one of three voting machine systems when in fact they know their current DRE machines. They know what to expect.

They know how to maintain them. They know how to have been properly calibrated. They know the lifespan available and instead of going to a entirely new set of machines that we as a state have no history with it seems to me that it would be better to defer to the local boards of elections across our state 20+ counties who are requesting seeking this delay delay through the 2020 cycle alone and then have to replace the machines and it might even be additional machines that would be certified by that time, Beasley's amendment failed lawmakers still want counties to switch to paper ballots after the 2020 election cycle will return with more Carolina Journal radio where doubling down on freedom at Carolina Journal radio were proud to bring you stories that impact your life and your wallet.

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He referenced video footage from the day of the boat house praise and does the pledge representative saying comes in from the side and immediately takes his seat. The speakers attorney speaks to him and say never looks up. He is recognized for the purpose of the motion and rates of motion, apparently from a small, if not plan, how did the speaker noted: same.

How did the speaker noted the purpose that Satan wanted to be recognized for what motion he was going to make.

How did representative saying know exactly what to say.

Most telling is the reaction of all the other House Republicans in the chamber. Remember, the speaker said they will quote genuinely confused and surprised.

See the video for yourself. That is clearly not the truth. They sit there listening intently, and no one has any reaction of surprise.

There is no confusion, no reaction at all, no questioning to their seatmate. What did Jason just say no facial expression changes. No walking around like what is happening. Jackson reaches a harsh conclusion.

We've been a lot too admissible in Republicans currently get the votes necessary on the policy. Then they try to simply by members off, they still couldn't get the seven then their win at all call strategy began.

House Democrats going to extraordinary links to attend all voting sessions. This includes returning early from major surgery, leaving the hospital bedside spouses missing, doctors appointments, work obligations, family vacations first days of school, and many other reasons effect almost no House Democrats were present, would indicate anyone that we have been told that there would be no votes. So where do we go to heat from here in statehouse. I do not see any past four to reconciliation, so long as the Republican leadership in their offices continue to lie about what happened. I believe that Republican House leaders have consistently live for two weeks if they still dispute this. I would challenge her leadership to take a lie detector test.

Let me write the questions and I will gladly pay for Republican state House Speaker Tim Moore issued a quick response representative Jackson contends that represent saying it was reading from his phone. Motion out what that is true. How do I know I was there. Jackson wasn't there. I was there do my job and work in the motion come from. It came from me giving it to my Chief of Staff, who physically walk it over to representative sign for him to read from and the video should show the say that as well. Why did we give it represent or say will Majority Leader was present room share was present. Speaker pro tem was present. We had 10 members well not been in this general assembly since 2003. I think now I think I ruled if there was a plan to override a veto. Think I will try to have us at full strength. Don't you think I would at least have a quorum present of Republicans. If the Democrats had walked off the floor. That would shut the thing down. This is one other stranger came to session, walked on the floor first thing that I did was I asked the house principal Corp. did we notice this is a note about session. Remember, I did not preside. I confirm with court. No such notice.

Everyone it was a regularly scheduled boating session. In fact, a number of Democratic members were there for one of the Democratic members. In fact, came to me and wanted where my colleagues are we voting more went beyond rebutting Jackson's specific points.

Here's what I think that was disturbing for a member of the house we were in recess for member to come in, make these allegations, which are accurate, which can be disproven with no notice, no opportunity of not even having a discussion about just that says something I've been up front and and straightforward with you guys and they will say from the beginning when I saw a chance to take a boat I would that we had plenty of move up sessions you will cover 20. Just the other day, we announced no votes. And guess what, we don't have bugs. And even though the veto rode the count of what was too much merely on the session and we didn't think about. So I think I think represent Jackson clearly has to no better is desperate to keep his job in the caucus I don't I don't know what it is. Questions one of the things I'm going to mention when we talk about integrity missions.

A number of Democratic members who initially said they were going to war.

This budget came to my office and we can't but these were individuals he represent saying I can't. But for fat one was almost in tears because I had been intimidated and harassed and threatened by the minority leader by the government.

In fact the cup while mom told were introduced to their primary opponents if they voted their conscience for now strong words extortion does not fret those words. You can follow but those are comments that Democratic members came and said to me one vote for this budget because they knew it was right but at the end of the day we were there.

September 11 probably noticed session.

We took the votes ever happen. House Speaker Tim Moore responded to the threat of legal action understand represent objections that he wants to file a lawsuit, not surprised soon about everything else.

Why not try, we followed the house rules. In fact, I challenge represent Jackson number one who lied to you. What did they say point-blank site number two. If you think that I said something was knackered what was say. So far I haven't seen or heard. Number three if you believe that the house represents did not follow its rules come for and show me the only thing that I heard him say is we follow the rules thing I heard him say is members written out 11 ceremonies member I got not going to have to leave threatening phone calls and messages were people say why would you think about when Democrats were the 911 ceremony. There was no not 11 ceremony one member the house represented volunteers was at a 911 ceremony. So what about the other question.

Where were the demographic members.

Where were the they were, you know, I guess. I guess the total 15. There were about 15 on the house. Well, where were the other 40 well represented. Butler went there in her tirade actually made a point of saying I believe, what and where downstairs working on maps right now.

Well, we had a court order say when you worked on maps had to be done in open and public that we had a room set at 24 hours live stream. We had the whole time I was there for a reason. It was there to comply with the order. So if Democratic members were in fact not on the house for where were I would submit to you that some level based on the the admission of reps and about where downstairs working on maps just like she said they work that's Republican state House Speaker Tim Moore. He's responding to accusations from house Democratic leader Darren Jackson. The back-and-forth is related to the house is controversial vote to override Gov. Roy Cooper's veto of the state budget will return with more Carolina journal radio in a moment really influence you either have it or you don't and at the germline foundation we have it, you'll find our guiding principles in many of the freedom forward reforms of the past decade here in North Carolina. So while others talk or complain or name call. We provide research solutions and hope our team analyzes the pressing issues of the day jobs, healthcare, education, and more.

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The recipe for stability and a bright future for truth for freedom for the future of North Carolina. We are the John Locke foundation. Welcome back to Carolina journal radio I'm Dina Martina's climate activists are pushing for dramatic changes to how we live our lives and what they say is a necessary push to save the earth from warming and from greenhouse gas emissions, electric vehicles are one piece of their planet saving puzzle, but our next guest says that electric vehicles may not be the panacea that climate activists think they are Dr. Don Vandermark is a senior fellow with the John Mark foundation. He's also the former Sec. of the North Carolina Department of environmental quality. Welcome back to the show extravagant. First of all let's talk about the air and air pollution is our air dirtier today than it was, say, 10 years ago will certainly if you consider we refer to as traditional sulfur dioxide particular matter. All of those yes much cleaner ever even cleaner over the last 10 years so cleaner not dirtier as some people would a legend that usually leads to their plan that would be dramatic changes in things that we do, how we conduct ourselves the energy, etc.

Carolina is currently in compliance with all federal air quality standards has been for number of years where claimant where we're breathing clean air you recently made a really fascinating presentation to the Shaftesbury Society of the John Locke foundation. By the way, you can see that John on the Facebook page. Also of the John Locke foundation.

He talked a lot about electric vehicles. I gotta tell you, just driving down the road and in the triangle where I'm located, I see a number of different EV models and their beautiful cars. I mean II would consider buying one, but the problem is that the batteries and will talk about that, at least in my view, did he actually reduce air pollution while they certainly shift air pollution pollution.

If you are generated when generating electricity that is used to charge these cars. Batteries is more remote instead of the pollution coming out of the pot. The tailpipe as it does in an internal combustion engine, a gasoline car like the emissions are remote at a power station some 50 miles away. Explain that well so when I take my Tesla FICA for the Tesla.

They are beautiful they are and how when I when I take that home and have charged overnight. Electricity is coming from a nearby power station and elsewhere power station is typically a North Carolina powered by some sort of fossil fuel.

We do have some nuclear and so the electricity that is sent to my garage has generated traditional pollution as well as greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide you're describing simply a shift is just a chef then what's what's particularly concerning to me are to two issues one is there was some misleading information given out by the number of years ago that these cars are somehow more fuel-efficient, some three times more fuel-efficient that is untrue, and though the Department of Energy's methodology shows that the other more recent concern is that perhaps were not prepared. Our grid is not sufficiently carbon CO2 emissions as I haven't been lowered to enough and are for our grid to actually benefit from shifting the load from gasoline cars to electric. What I mean is, if we ballpark our gasoline engines tomorrow and start driving electricals are electricity generating system would have to generate some 30% more electricity right now that electricity would come from fossil fuel fired electric steam station and you're saying we would have to generate more electricity because people would be having charge batteries instead of buying gasoline you have to be buying electricity electricity would be coming from generating station which would be fueled primarily by natural gas. I want to talk about something that some balusters might be thinking moment Don Vandermark, sounds like you he just hates electric vehicles. I think you hate electric vehicles. You're just talking about this is the reality of the science of this, let's let's look forward in the future when perhaps we have electricity generating grid that is primarily nuclear or Hydro with some solar now you've got electricity being generated was practically no CO2 omissions or greenhouse gas emissions that electric vehicles could work fine. There are some performance issues in terms of range. Those are things with that that can be worked on, but I think the problem is. Today we have this misconception conception that if we drive electric vehicles with current electricity generating mix that we have somehow reduce CO2 greenhouse gases and that's simply not true. It's going to go in the opposite direction. That's fascinating.

I wonder why environmentalist certain smart people. They understand these things in.

Why aren't they acknowledging that well it's somewhat complicated and it's only recently. For example, that some of this research come out that shows the actual gas can represent an increase in GH. Geez, it has to do with the potency of methane versus the potency of global warming, global warming, carbon oxide that's only recently come out. There was a letter sent by Prof. Schendel from Duke, for example 2 DQ only a few months ago.

Department of environmental quality correct only a few months ago in which he explains the concern. He's got with natural gas as being a source of greenhouse gases almost as bad if not worse.

He says them a coal-fired power plant, and that is the question I'm now bringing forward as if that's true, any increase in the use of electricity in North Carolina will increase GHD's and exacerbate global warming.

To the extent you play a role nuclear Don because it's I understand it, nuclear is greenhouse gas emission free and yet, at least some vocal environmentalists who are pushing renewable energies at the same time reject nuclear why I don't think you can be serious talking global warming. If you're not talking nuclear if we are to believe that the world as we know it is going to end shortly is a small amount of risk associated with waste is pales in comparison.

But in addition, nuclear power, especially from our older nuclear plant to the been paid for substantially is the cheapest electricity that's on the grid right now.

So the first step I'm advocating is that we moved to incentivize the retention and continued operation of our existing nuclear fleet that we were, at least not going backwards.

If one of those gets decommissioned and shut down because if they do, that load will be replaced by a fossil fuel fired steam generating unit pushback that you're going to hear when our listeners hear you say that is going to second what about storing those spent nuclear rods. We don't have a facility that the whole Yucca Mountain things going on, but it's not approved it's not open correct but all of the nuclear plant in America have done a great job store nuclear waste to date been operating for 30 to 40 years with no incident.

That's going to continue and again the small risk associated with that pales in comparison with the risk were being told global real quick, ask you about battery technology because it seems to me the longevity, the duration of a note, the battery for an electric vehicle is critical to whether or not these things actually move forward. Are we looking are we on the horizon of something that is set allow us to go longer. Battery technology is something that we desperately need to to to research and develop further in the colder climates. These cars because the bad battery is essentially a chemical reaction cold temperatures. Chemical reactions don't like to go so there are a lot of issues in terms of range performance.

Thanks so much time we have for the program this week.

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