Boy, with everything happening in America and the world today, I feel like I'm ready to burst with truth and information. Are you ready? Let's do it. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.
Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and president of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUT. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
Today, I want to tell you the obvious. Today, rather than focusing on the individual trees, we're going to look at the forest. Today I want to do my best to get us to step back. From the swirl of news and reports surrounding the president and surrounding world events, and just try to look at what is. Obvious and clear.
Welcome to the broadcast. This is Michael Brown. You are listening to the line of fire, your voice. Of Moral, Cultural, and Spiritual Revolution. 866-34878.
eight four that's eight six six three four truth Let let me just ask you first. your own opinion. your own perspective. The talk from some about impeaching the President. The word that he leaked classified or gave classified information to Russia.
Vladimir Putin mocking the idea that any such thing happened and saying he can back it up with transcripts. The frenzy that seems to be surrounding the White House. Is President Trump simply incompetent? And that's why everything seems to be falling apart We've got an unqualified businessman, a buffoon. In the White House?
Is that what's going on? Is it? that he is such a threat to the establishment. the media establishment, the Washington establishment, that they are in an absolute frenzy. to bring this fine, fearless leader down.
Is the truth somewhere in between those things. Do you trust the President's tweets? Do you trust his spokespeople? Do you trust the Washington Post and New York Times? Do you trust the Democratic Party?
Do you trust the Republican Party? None of the above, all of the above, with a grain of salt? Where do you stand on this? 866-348-7884. I'm going to do my best.
To Give us some common sense wisdom in all of this. But let me say a few things up front. I am not a defender of President Trump. I am not a critic. of President Trump.
I'm doing my best to be. A truth teller. I'm doing my best to be objective. based on the information I have. I have a little inside information, but not much.
Most of what I get I get the same way you get, sifting through the news. trying to get to primary reports. Trying to see who and what is reliable and who and what is not reliable. But I do not have a secret pipeline, hotline to the white to the White House, and I'm going to give you the the real secret information of what happened behind closed doors in a meeting.
Sorry. I don't have that. And then you have people that claim to and they're sending out contradictory information. I am not here to bash the president. I'm not here to exalt the President.
I voted for him. with reluctance. I voted for him as a way of voting against Hillary Clinton. I voted for him. with grave concerns, having opposed him As a candidate.
for the Republican nomination. I stand the same way. Today I am supporting him and hoping for the best, but I continue to have concerns. Don't bash me for defending him, and don't bash me for attacking him, because I'm doing neither. I want to give you an analysis as best as I can.
Oh, that's just the tip of the iceberg about what I want to talk with you about today. There's a whole lot of stuff that's on our plate. You don't want to miss a minute of it today. Right here on the line of five. O God of burning, cleansing.
Flame. Sand. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUT.
Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. I want to talk to you about a bunch of things today, including the left's affinity with Islam. why radical left will radically defend Islam. Even though Islam at its base is anything but sympathetic to the radical left.
I want to talk about that. I want to talk about ongoing. Trends in the society where We keep seeing society shifting in wrong ways, and people telling the church, hey, get with it, get with the program, how do we respond to that? Oh, oh, and before I forget. My book, Our Hands Are Stained with Blood, which came out twenty five years ago, Right now on Amazon, Kindle.
So the e-book, it's selling for 99 cents. I was just notified about it yesterday. I actually discovered a tweet notifying me about it on Twitter yesterday. It's 99 cents. It has been continuously in print.
for 25 years since it came out. It is now the number one Kindle book in Judaism. Number one Kindle book in church history. Number one, Kindle book in religious studies and sociology, and it's 99 cents. I'm sure I don't make a dime on this, or maybe a penny.
I mean, who knows, but I could care less. Actually, I don't make a dime even if it sold a billion copies. I don't make a dime on it anyway. That just goes into ministry work. But get it if you don't have it.
And you don't need a Kindle reader. You don't need a Kindle reader. You can just get it on your phone, on your any iPhone or tablet, anything. Just the Kindle app is available on every different platform. Get the book, 99 cents.
Our hands are stained with blood. Trust me. It'll be one of the more important books that you read this year or maybe in many years. The tragic story of the church and the Jewish people.
So take advantage of that. All right, 866-34-TRUTH.
Okay. What is the truth. about the firing of James Colmy. What Is the truth? About Trump's collusion with Russia.
alleged collusion. What is the truth concerning whether Donald Trump is fit to be president. Why all the controversy? To me, There is a perfect storm taking place right now. It is a collision happening between various forces, all of which are like.
tractor trailers or bulldozers. In other words, they're all formable, tanks, and when they crash it is n everyone is crashing more, neither one is giving. What are the different forces involved? Again, I just want to share the obvious. to help us step back because I don't know.
all the answers any more than you do. And I don't know if we're going to know all the answers for months or even years. About what's actually going down or what went down, and some things there may be debate 10 years from now about. All right. And if you get caught up in the news cycle, if you get caught up, and I'm watching CNN, I'm watching Fox, I'm watching MSNBC, I'm listening to Rush, I'm watching, and it's just what is happening.
And did he have two scoops? He has two scoops of ice cream instead of one. And then that's the latest, okay, that's a little fringe thing that people are getting upset about. But that's we put that aside as not really news, except. Not the best nutrition.
Okay. Let's look at the obvious. The obvious. Number one, Donald Trump is who he is. He has not become A statesman president who is no longer tweeting no longer tweaking people with his comments.
no longer provocatory. No longer, oh, what do you want to say? volatile in that regard. All right? That remains the same.
The Donald Trump of the campaign is now the Donald Trump, the White House, for better or worse. That means On the one hand, he's willing to take on the establishment and the status quo. and be at war with the media. And even thrive on that, on the one hand. On the other hand, it also means that every day he's going to be giving fuel for the fires of his critics, that he's going to be saying things and doing things that you wish he didn't say and do as someone who voted for him, at least me.
You might love everything he's doing, but I don't. I'm concerned. Look, from day one we knew there was a possibility. Nancy and I often talked about it, and I certainly wrote about it and spoke about it on the air. What if you have someone like that?
who might be irresponsible. If he can get the media upset with him, if he can get Democrats fuming over him, if he can get some fellow Republicans upset with him. What if he gets Vladimir Putin upset with him? or the Premier of China. Or provokes a conflict with North Korea.
You say, no, no, they're the ones provoking the conflict. Oh, well, what if he doesn't handle their provocation rightly? Th these are just fair questions to ask. Do you trust him with the nuclear codes? Yeah, I trust God's restraint on human beings, but these are fair questions.
He remains a volatile and divisive figure in that regard. and so many things that he is not doing by the book, for better or worse, provoke further controversy.
So the conflict, the daily firestorms, this is simply a byproduct of who he is.
So that's one obvious factor, right? Another obvious factor. The swamp in Washington is really deep. The swamp in Washington is really deep. Let me give you something that many of you can relate to.
Have you ever been shocked by something that happened in your home church or denomination? That was just a matter of of infighting in politics. And what was right did not prevail. What was true did not prevail. What prevailed was the party line.
Have you ever seen that happen? And it's basically like a leader, a senior leader, sits you down. Maybe you're new in a denomination and you see certain issues and you see what you believe is corruption or compromise. And you go to your pastor and say, Pastor, I mean, I'm new in this denomination. But, sir, this is ungodly.
Will you stand with me and fight against it? And he smiles and says, Son, you don't understand. It doesn't work like that. It doesn't work like that. These guys have been here before you got in and they'll be here after you get out.
In other words, there are power structures in place and you just don't challenge them because that's not how it works.
Some of you are nodding. It's like, yeah, trust me, I still got the wounds and the scars from that. I understand.
Okay. Well, multiply that probably a thousand times or a million times, and that seems to be Washington. In other words, the cronyism. the power structures, the influence. I mean, you're talking about the most powerful office, naturally speaking, humanly speaking, in the world.
the Office of the President of the United States, and everything surrounding that, the Washington power grid, is far more intense, complex, deep than we can imagine. I'm sure. I do not know nearly how strong it is, despite what I'm trying to convey to describe it. The roots are deeper. It's like you see a tree standing there and think, oh, we can bulldoze this tree down.
Well, what you do not know. Is that the roots are 10,000 feet deep and reinforced with steel, and that tree is reinforced with steel, and when you crash into it with your bulldozer, the bulldozer is going to break. That's how deep and sick. The entanglement of Washington politics is. That's how deep and thick the establishment is, if that picture works for you.
And you have an outsider like Donald Trump, not just an anti-establishment Republican like Ted Cruz, which is a major reason I endorsed him. Again, I don't know that I'll ever endorse another candidate again for other reasons, not that Ted Cruz disappointed me, but for other reasons in terms of whether it's useful or not to endorse for the overall larger calling I have in wanting to serve the body as a whole. All right. However, However, It's one thing when you have someone challenging the establishment from the inside, like Senator Ted Cruz and calling out the Washington cartel. It's another thing.
entirely when you have a political outsider. Coming in and challenging the system and saying, We're going to do it like this. And the system says, No, it doesn't work like that. Nope. We're going to start leaking things.
No, we're going to start hurting you. Nope, it doesn't work like that. You try that, you get paralyzed. It's pretty much like you said, I'm going to fly this plane the way it's supposed to be flown. It's like, well, we're not putting gas in the plane, it's not taking off.
The mechanics aren't inspecting it and approving it, it's not taking off. That's part of what's happening.
So you have Trumps. strengths taking on the system and his weaknesses The bombastic style and things that seem to be unwise or not clearly thought out or not rightly coordinated. You have the depth. of the Washington establishment, and then you have the stronghold of the liberal media. And to challenge the liberal media.
Is to take on the major voice speaking to society day and night. The major voice influencing people's thinking day and night. You don't dare do that without. Consequence. The media can make you and the media can break you, naturally speaking.
That's the obvious. That's what we're dealing with. That's why there's such a quagmire. That's why it's almost impossible to figure out what's really happening and what's not. We'll be right back.
Ain't the world It's fire we want for fire we want It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
Okay, may I give you my opinion?
Well, everything I stated yet is my opinion, but it seems pretty straightforward to me. It seems like I stated the obvious. on these various points. About the President, about Russia, about the media, about the Washington establishment. But let me give you further opinions about these things.
86634Truth, if you want to weigh in. I'm taking a couple more minutes on this, then I'm moving on. I spotted a comment the other day. And a woman was saying, you know, I listen to your show regularly, but why do you keep defending Trump? And at the same time, I was getting people upset with me for attacking Trump.
So I was like, I'm not defending him. I'm not attacking him. When I bring my colleague James Robinson on many Tuesdays, he joins me later in the show as someone that's been with the president, has more insight. He's getting us to pray in a certain direction and seeking to believe for the best for God to work through the president, giving us that perspective. But if you read my articles, I'm weighing in honestly.
I wrote a critique of Ann Coulter's position saying she put way too much trust in a man and way too much trust in the president and was unrealistic expectations from day one.
So I'm not dashing, I'm not defending, okay? Just to be clear, it's amazing how folks process things through a certain grid of presuppositions. But here's what I do want to say. Here's what I do want to say. My personal beliefs.
I do not believe that there was any collusion between the Trump administration and Russia to help him win the election. From everything I understand, that was something concocted shortly after the defeat. of candidate Hillary Clinton. Whether Russia's hacking of emails with the Democratic Party, if Russia in fact was guilty of that, if that hurt Hillary Clinton. I would say it hurt her.
Did it hurt enough to. lose the election? No. Was Trump in collusion with Russia? Over that I don't believe so.
Give me my opinion. Again, we're sorting through the same information the same way. I'm giving you my opinion. as a God-fearing talk radio host, okay? Just my opinion.
But I don't believe there was collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. to help him get elected. That's number one. Number two. I believe James Comey deserved to be fired.
for quite a few reasons. And again, as an outsider, From what I understand, there was a lot of decline in morale. within the FBI. because of the reproach that James Comey brought to the FBI. What motivated him to do what he did, God knows.
Was he a friend or foe of Hillary Clinton? God knows. To what extent did he recognize there was collusion between Bill Clinton and the Red Lynch, hence removing things from the Department of Justice and taking things in his own hands? God knows. Yeah, there are strong opinions on these things, but I'm trying to major on the majors here.
Is it true that President Trump. told James Comey, I'm asking you to stop the investigation into General Mike Flynn. And his Uh it Talks with Russia not giving the right information to the vice president. And of course, people saying the Obama administration had already warned the Trump administration about working with General Flynn and that there were problems there.
So Is that the reason he was fired as a further cover-up of Russia? I don't think so. I don't think so. Did Trump get provoked to fire Comey because he felt that he wasn't listening to him and wasn't loyal to him? And Trump didn't get the answers he wanted.
That could have been the final provocation. The fact that some of his highest officials, the president's highest officials, only found out when the news went public because of concern that there would be leaks. That's a scary situation right there to think of that he doesn't know who he can trust. It's like some TV series, right? I mean, come on, th just the way it's happening.
This would be more riveting than a lot of TV that's out there. You know, like, oh my, yikes, this is. This is conspiratorial and suspenseful. And what's going to happen from week to week, let alone from day to day? Day to day.
Okay, so I personally Believe Comey deserved to be fired. for numerous reasons. But is there more to the story in terms of he was on to something and that's why Trump fired him? I don't think so. If so, let it come to light.
Let it come to light.
Now, Word is out. that Israeli intelligence officials are very upset. with President Trump because He disclosed Intel. to the Russians about potential attacks. Tax.
Airline attacks, people, ISIS terrorists trying to smuggle bombs onto airplanes in the form of laptop computers or. built into laptop computers. And that President Trump shared this with Russia to say, hey. You need to be aware of this for security reasons and fight against ISIS with us. We need you to fight against ISIS more.
Okay? Uh Well If accurate, according to the sources that I've read against public things. That information, that intel came from Israel. And Israel is very upset that the President shared this with Russia. He said it's his prerogative to share what he wants to share.
It's for security and to do war against ISIS. Is that true? And if so, how does it affect things as the President goes to Israel? Does it make things even a bit more volatile? Obviously, we shall see what unfolds next week with the President's visit there.
On the flip side, There is a lot of good that President Trump is doing. A critic of Trump sent me a note today about all of the human trafficking. Arrests. Whereas say in 2014 the entire year. There were 400 sex trafficking-related arrests.
2014, according to the FBI. Just in the month of January this year, what's the total? 1500 plus arrests. 1500 plus arrests in terms of people involved in sex trafficking, human trafficking, trafficking of children. Have you heard that reported?
No. Why not?
Well, that's a good report. That makes Sound and look good, and the media is not going to report that.
So I want to encourage you, I'm going to bring things to a close here and change subjects on the other side of the break. I want to encourage you to Yeah. Take everything you hear. from the media these days. The headlines you read.
Be it New York Times headlines, Huffington Post headlines, Washington Post headlines. Or Drudge Report headlines, Breitbart headlines, headlines elsewhere. I want to encourage you to take everything with a grain of salt, I'm not talking about a factual report that no one is denying, you know, that there was an earthquake in this country. Or that a tornado killed people in this neighborhood. And no one is disputing that.
And you've got the video evidence in front of your eyes. I'm talking about these other things. Take them. with a grain of salt. Go to the streamstream.org for some excellent Christian analysis.
And then pray. Pray for America. Pray for the president. Pray for the world. Your name be hallowed, Lord.
Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is. in heaven. We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr.
Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
I want to encourage you to check out my latest article. The Liberals Misguided Love Affair with Islam. The Liberals misguided love affair with Islam. Isn't it interesting? That Robert Spencer, New York Times best-selling author.
Director of Jihad Watch. outspoken critic of radical Islam. one who believes that radical Muslims trace their actions back to the Quran and the teaching of Muhammad and the life of Muhammad in Islamic history. that when he goes to speak at a college campus, about the dangers of jihad in radical Islam. He is shouted down to the point that he is unable to speak.
more than a few seconds, all right? He's unable to read Islamic sources.
Well being shut it down. by by groups like Queers Against Islamophobia. By Muslims who are leftist, liberal, Muslims So you can be sure they're not praying five times a day, for example. You can be sure they haven't memorized the Quran.
Okay. They are not religious Muslims, but liberal and therefore nominal Muslims according to the historic tenets of the faith. That you have feminists and other leftist Radicals. who are shouting down Someone. Who is talking about radical Islam?
You think they should be saying, preach it, brother? They should be saying talk about it, man.
So why is it? that when you expose something hateful and bigoted, You are now hateful and bigoted. Why is it, if you expose something murderous and violent, You're guilty of a worse sin, namely the sin of judging. It Isn't that utterly backwards? Isn't that utterly upside-down?
Isn't that utterly contrary to reason. A few years ago, when Israel was at war with Hamas and Gaza, I think it was Operation Cast-led, but I don't remember which of the two recent wars with Hamas was in question at that time. But there was a demonstration in Charlotte, North Carolina that I read about living nearby. And the demonstration was an anti-Israel march, a march protesting Israel's attack on Hamas in Gaza. Unostensibly.
humanitarian grounds. and many of the leaders involved with the march were on the radical left. and included feminists and LGBT activists and their allies. You think wait wait wait they were protesting against Israel? They were defending Hamas.
What would happen if the feminists led a march, conducted a march, in Gaza. a pro-feminist march in Gaza. What of gay activists had a pro-gay march in Gaza. The March would be physically shut down. just by the general population, There would be people violently attacked.
and Hamas police officials would have the people jailed. And some might be jailed for long periods of time.
Some might even be put to death. for their public displays. Yet Those demonstrators were demonstrating for Hamas and against Israel. Which is very liberal, very progressive, you have the ultra-Orthodox Jews, but they don't run most of the country. They live in their particular enclaves.
You have Tel Aviv voted the most gay-friendly city by far in the world some years ago. You have gay pride marches in Jerusalem, you have a strong feminism throughout the country, all for better or worse, that's just the reality. And the protesters are protesting against Israel and standing with Tomas. It makes no sense, naturally speaking. I've got some spiritual reasons, but in the natural, What?
We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
So what is it? What is it? that causes liberals to defend a faith that at its essence is conservative and often fundamentalist. And in strict opposition to some of the liberal values, and in some cases, in violent opposition to it. What causes that?
This is Michael Brown, 866. 34878. My latest article, again, you can read at askdrbrown.org. The Liberals Misguided Love Affair with... Islam.
Robert Spencer says this, and I want to give you some thoughts as to why this actually happened. But in Spencer's words, I spoke a few sentences, he was at the University of Buffalo last week, and made a couple of points in between being screamed at by leftist and Islamic supremacist fascists who think they're opposing fascism. And Spencer says this. For example, one man held a sign that read, Queers Against Islamophobia. The crowd booed lustily when I attempted to read from Islamic authorities about Islam's death penalty for homosexuality.
Even to read from Islamic sources is hate. Apparently, at the University of Buffalo, unless, of course, one endorses such penalties rather than opposes them. It defies logic, does it not?
So here. These voices want to silence Robert Spencer. Why? because they are pro-gay.
Alright, Spencer. It wants to read texts that talk about the death penalty for homosexuality. Under Islam. Wouldn't that mean that they would be with Robert Spencer standing against this form of Islam, or this radical interpretation of Islam, or real Islam, however you want to slice that cake? Here, look at this.
A very offensive comment I'm about to read. No profanity, but just want you to know a very offensive comment. I saw this on YouTube a few years ago, as a 12-year-old boy. had posted a video in which he explained why he opposed same-sex marriage based on the Bible. The person commenting read said, quote, You, just like everyone else who is against gay marriage, is a mentally retarded bigot, no exceptions.
Now go to hell. Yeah, very offensive words there.
So a 12-year-old boy who says, based on the Bible, I don't believe in homosexual marriage.
Alright, he he's being silenced. At the same time the voices that want to silence him want to now silence Robert Spencer, from opposing a faith that says homosexuals should be put to death. Yeah uh h how does it work? You're talking on two different sides of your mouth at the same time in total contradiction. But Spencer had this warning by shutting down any discussion.
of the motivating ideology of the jihad threat. and consigning it all to the realm of hatred and bigotry, the student mob at the University of Buffalo enables that threat to grow. One day the leftists who screamed, heckled, and booed as I tried to speak may very well experience the consequences of their actions, carried out by those with whom they thought they stood in solidarity. Let them, the students at University of Buffalo that protested Spencer's visit. Let them try the same protest in a Muslim country like Iran.
Or a Muslim country like Afghanistan. or Pakistan. or Saudi Arabia. Or Hamas governed Gaza Strip. See how the protest goes.
And and whose side are you going to be on? In these various Muslim countries, which are quite a few, that have a death penalty. for conversion. Yeah, a death penalty. If you leave Islam, you die.
And the the voice of tolerance? Supports? that and wants to silence opposition, you say, no, no, no, you don't understand. We all stand against radical Islam. It's the Muslim bashing we differ with.
Hey, Friends, I get death threats and the most horrific and vile. attacks you could possibly Imagine for coming against radical Islam. And I I here I end my articles. Here, I ended this article today. The left needs to end its naive love affair with Islam and may peace-loving Muslims help lead the way in working against radical Islam.
May peace-loving Muslims help lead the way and work against radical Islam. I am acknowledging they are peace-loving Muslims. I believe the majority of Muslims are more peaceful than radical. And I am calling on them to stand with us against radical Islam. How is that bashing Islam?
Why aren't the people saying to Robert Spencer, hey, We think that you're a little bit overstating. The how much this is true Islam or how much this relies on Islamic sources. We see it more as an abuse of Islam, but but we recognize that Islamic texts are used and the people involved claim to be devout Muslims, so we want to stand with you against this. Wh why not?
So What is it then spiritually going on? ideologically going on. On the one hand, There is the anti-Israel animus.
So it's just kind of this. coalition of ideologies, coalition of forces, coalition of groups. that that come against Israel. And it can be quite a diverse group, just like you'll have Satanists, atheists, gay activists opposing the pro-life movement. It is a coalition of death in that respect, a coalition against life in that respect.
Oh, no, not all atheists react. I'm just speaking. In general terms, there.
Okay, so when you have feminist LGBT activists marching against Israel and for Hamas. Yeah, that's just the anti-Israel animus. That's just the caricaturing of Israel as this monstrosity that's out there to destroy and take over the world and the evil Goliath destroying the poor little Palestinian Davids. That's that. When it comes to the left defending Islam, obviously some of it's naive.
Some of it's based on a secular cultural Islam which thinks, well, that's real Islam and we don't want to kill anybody. Yeah, I ask those Muslims how much have you read the Quran? How much can you tell me about the hadith and the sunnah? How much can you tell me about your own Islamic practices and how you live and so on and so forth? Yeah, it's it's going to be very liberal, very nominal.
So some it's just based on that deep, deep, deep misperception. But a lot of it is the spirit of the world. that this same spirit that will defend Islam. and that will stand on the radical left and other issues, is the same spirit that will attack the gospel. that will attack the truth of the Scripture.
So in that sense, it is the world uniting. Part of its some of its true colors, just as Herod and Pilate, who were enemies, became friends when it came to crucifying Jesus. Jesus.
So Yeah, wake up time in that regard for the left in terms of the realities of Islam and the pervasiveness of radical Islam within Islamic. ideology. Again, I do not believe that radical Islam is the only true interpretation of Islam. There are different streams that come out of Islam, some more pacifistic and some more violent. I say the violent interpretation, not everything ISIS does, but the general violent interpretation has Quranic support, support in the life of Muhammad, and support in Islamic history.
That simply, I do believe. In other words, it is a true interpretation of Islam, if not the only interpretation of Islam.
So, over on Twitter. As always, post my latest articles, latest videos. And a liberal Muslim guy, TV guy, journalist, he retweets my article on the liberal's misguided love affair with Islam. He retweets my article saying you win award for dumbest article of the day. Uh so it's Dean Obedala.
You win award for dumbest article of the day. And then other folks that follow him start tweeting in their words of mockery.
So I I wrote back to him. And I said, Okay, great, let's let's debate this then. Let's let's have discussion. I wrote back um quickly let me just look at the thread here. Um I said, tell you what, I'll support every statement I made with facts.
Okay, hang on. Let me just back up. I said, let's have a civil debate. I said, you've you've never... Never.
Uh actually responded to me, attacked me before, but never with any substance. Let's have civil debate, discussion. Any response? No. Others start chiming in and attacking.
mocking the article. I said, sir, and Please be kind enough to point out any factual errors in my article. I assume you read it carefully, correct. Any response? Yeah.
Tell you what I'll support every statement I made with facts. You can rely on mockery since it appears you don't have facts. Fair? Any response? No.
Responded again.
So will you simply launch a tax without substance and confirm what I wrote in the article, or will you debate the points? Facts. Truth. Any response? No.
And the other folks that chimed in with their mockery, any response when I said, show me anything factually wrong with the article, zero! All they did was prove the point of my article. We come back. I got something wild to share with you, some sound bites. You don't want to miss this.
Trust me. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34TRUTH. Here again is Dr.
Michael Brown. One thing I always look at, changing subjects once again here on the line of fire. One thing I always look at is the trajectory. Where is something going? If you let something continue on its normal course, where will it end up?
What will be the final end, the final destination? That's a big, big question to ask. And it's a big perspective of the Bible. Final destination, final end, final consequences. You reap what you sow.
So, you know, the standard analogy, you shoot. Uh launch a missile. and it is just slightly off, right? I mean just slightly off, well, by the time it reaches its target 100 miles away, it's it's it's going to be so far off target it's it's going to completely miss the mark.
So the longer you live, the longer the thing unfolds, the longer something develops in society, the more extreme the trajectory.
So think of this. Love. Just let love take its course. Love, true love. Multiply it.
Multiply it again. Multiply it again. What do you have? True love. Lots of it.
Truth. Multiplied truth. What do you have? Lots of truths. Truth, truth, truth, truth.
Wonderful truth. Multiply anger. What do you have? Well rage and violence and murder and Who knows what? Multiply immorality what do you have?
A thing so unclean and unspeakable? We couldn't even imagine them. Right, so I look at the trajectory. If we follow God's principles in Scripture, where will that lead us? Where will society be in a year, in 5, 10, 50, 100?
If we conduct our families the way God instructs us, if husbands and wives are devoted to each other the way God planned it, if we have children and raise our children according to scriptural principles, where will we be in a year, 5, 10, 15, 20, 50, 100, 1,000? Right? And it's good it's all good. It's all good. It's all good.
But if you redefine marriage, if you tear down family, if you give place to sexual anarchy, where will things be in a year, five, ten, a hundred? Yank, scary.
So one reason God's laid on my heart to deal with LGBT activism while reaching out to individuals with the love of God, the truth of God. One reason is because of the trajectory. Where do things go?
So with transactivism, you have an absolute war on gender. Gender distinctions themselves become an enemy. The so-called gender binary male-female distinctions become an enemy.
Alright.
So So To give you an example, there's a gentleman who identifies as a woman. And he is taking obsession exception to the idea. that maybe you're a man and you want to go with a woman who has female body parts, is that transphobic? Or is that just part of a transphobic society? Does that hurt trans people?
I'm serious.
So listen to what he has to say. Recently, on the internet, there's been a lot of discussion around genital preferences and transphobia. In this video, I'm going to use the word cis-sexism instead of transphobia, but they're really similar words. At its most basic, cis-sexism means prejudice or discrimination against transgender people.
So, what's been happening is that some people are making the argument that it's not cis-sexist at all to only be attracted to people with one kind of genitals. For example, these people might argue that being attracted to only women with vaginas in no way negatively affects trans people. On the other hand, I would argue that it's more complicated than that. We all have our implicit biases built into our preferences, and gender isn't as simple as just the genitals you have. Mm.
Okay, let me, as always, give my caveat. There are people who are called intersex. less than 1% of the population who have a legitimate biological or chromosomal abnormality. Ambiguous genitalia, dual genitalia, chromosomes that don't simply match the normal male-female sequence. We have compassion on these individuals, like anyone else that has a physical handicap or defect or problem of some kind, but we do not.
Deny the fact that there are two sexes, male and female. We say this is an abnormality, but we recognize it as male-female. And. Man? Have male genes, male chromosomes, male male.
Body parts and women have the opposite. When I say genes, apparently there are thousands of genes that influence these things where you can distinguish male from female, even verified in a recent study. No, no, no, no. That's transphobic, or what is it called? Cis-sexist?
That's transphobic. Because there's a lot more to male and female than the plumbing. Oh, okay. I understand that it is not just a matter of a physical body. But when a man is attracted to a woman, He is attracted to her in different ways.
He's not attracted to her in as a normal course of events because she looks like a man. He is not attracted to her because of her male body parts or male features he is attracted to her because of her female body parts and female features, female face, and things like that. And if, let's just take this in the holiest, best case scenario, he wants to marry that woman. and he's thinking about how wonderful it would be to build a life with that woman, and thinking as a man, boy, I would love to be with her and join together sexually. Like to be with that woman, he is thinking about a male being with a female because that's how God made us.
And even if you have someone that's infertile, that does not take away from the norm that we were physically made to reproduce. Here, are you ready for a news flash? Are you ready? News flash to the world. Mm-hmm.
Women have the egg inside of them. the eggs inside of them. Men do not. That that's Wow Really? Uh huh?
Uh-huh. And Men have the seed inside of them seeds. Yeah. That's the truth. That's just the way God made us.
And there is physical union and sexual pleasure in a man and woman coming together and under normal circumstances the ability to reproduce. And for a guy to think, you know. I I I I I've been enjoying talking to you. I thought you were a biological woman, a real woman. I realized that you actually have male.
genitalia and that's that's a turn off to me. And to find out that you're not a biological chromosomal woman is a turn off to me because as a male, I'm wanting the whole person. I love your personality. I love your spirituality. I really like your looks.
I want to be with you. That's not being transphobic. That's being a normal human being the way God made us and intended. But now, even to say that, well, you're transphobic because you don't want to go with me now. That's not transphobic.
Transphobic is I'm going to die because you're in the room with me. I'm going to get the transphobia cooties or something. I'm going to catch a disease. Transphobic because I'm going to beat you up. I'm going to hurt you because of who you are and how you identify and dress.
That's transphobic if you want to come up with something. Please Let us come back to sanity, friends. My heart goes out to these people. Yeah, yeah, what if you were born transphobic? Yeah, you're responsible?
I mean, please, please. I'm being sarcastic, but I'm trying to make a point. Let's pray for those who struggle. Let's reach out to those who struggle, but don't turn society upside down. Make sure you go to askdrbrown.org.
If you're not getting my email, sign up today. Boy, we've got two fascinating interviews today. First, with a woman who's going to talk to us about an important initiative for children, and then with a woman who's going to speak about North Korea. It's time for the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution.
Michael Brown is the director of the Coalition of Conscience and President of Fire School of Ministry. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34-TRUTH. That's 866-34-TRUTH. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown.
I read a fascinating article last night. It is entitled Europe's Childless Leaders, Sleepwalking the West to Disaster, written by an Italian journalist. and published in several different online sources. Giulio Ma'otti is his name. And he says, There have never been so many childless politicians leading Europe as today.
They are modern, open-minded, and multicultural. They know that everything finishes with them and the short term being childless is a relief since it means no spending for families, no sacrifices, and that no one complains about the future consequences, as in a research report financed by the European Union. No kids, no problem. Being a mother or father, however, means that you have a very real stake in the future of the country you lead. Europe's most important leaders leave no children.
Behind the most important leaders, all Childless. Wow. What does that say? about future generations. Can society even sustain itself?
Are we as adults making choices that are about ourselves? And not thinking about the future. This is Michael Brown. You are listening to the Line of Fire. And I want to bring on the air now Katie Faust.
You may have read her blogs at Ask the Bigot. She's a state leader of Cana Vox and on the academic council for the International Children's Rights Institute. She's a Christian mother of four and pastor's wife. I've so enjoyed some of her writing in the past that was so full of insight. And she has an important new initiative.
I asked her if she'd come on the air and discuss it with us today. Katie, welcome back to the line of fire. Thanks so much for having me back. Great to talk with you. Great to talk with you.
Hey, just in this introductory segment, which is short, could you just lay out why you do what you do, how you came to blog as Ask the Bigot, why you're taking the initiatives you're taking today? Sure. The initial reason I started blogging was because I felt like nobody was getting it right when it came to the marriage debate, and that is that ultimately government's interest in marriage is children, not necessarily how adults feel about one another. And the truth is that marriage policy has a significant impact on the rights of children.
So many of us argued that redefining marriage would redefine parenthood, and it has. And so what we've seen is sort of moving away from the rights of children as a focus and more towards emphasizing the desire of adults. And I really saw that playing out in the marriage debate where adults were framed as the victims, the arguments were centered around adult feelings, and very little notice was given to children and the impact that marriage policy has on children.
So I started blogging in essence to bring that side of the debate to light and also emphasize about why it's so important for Christians to radically love their gay family and friends even if they disagreed. Got it. And of course, even to raise these issues now couches you as a bigot.
So you just leaned into that. All right. Before we get into the reason that we've asked you on the air today, just 30 seconds. Do you think that That America can be turned back in the right direction or is it too late for our nation? I do think that we can turn it back, but we have to do that through an effective means.
And I don't think that we've known what that is. And so the what we're going to talk about today is in essence, what I think is the only thing that will turn hearts and minds back to understanding the proper role of marriage in relation to children especially, but society at large. Got it. All right, friends. Call a friend, tell them to tune in.
Moms and dads listening, young people listening that care about families, that care about children. Join me and Katie Faust in a moment. I'm going to talk about a new website, a new initiative. We'll be right back. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr.
Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome, welcome friends to the line of fire. This is Michael Brown speaking with Katie Faust.
And you may have read her blogs that ask the bigot, if not, do so, do so. You will not find hatred, you will not find intolerance, you will find love mixed together with truth. 866-348-78. eight eight four the number to call so I was looking on my Twitter feed the other day. And I noticed something that Katie had posted, and it was a new initiative, them.
Before us. Them before us. Here's the website. them Before us. Dot calm.
ThemBeforeus.com. The simple premise of the website: children's needs. come before adult desires. If we protect children's rights, we can win the greatest battle of our time. What do we normally hear?
I have the right to marry the one I love. Love wins. Right? And this is the mindset. Why are you deprived me of what I want?
And I should be able to marry the one I want to marry, as opposed to asking larger questions: what's the purpose of marriage? How does marriage affect children? What rights do children have in this world? Regard. 866-34Truth.
If you have a question, we may get to some calls. Again, the website, thembeforeus.com.
So, Katie, tell me what this website is about and what you hope to accomplish with this. Um I'm hoping to frame Best. discussion correctly. which is to make it a child-centric discussion. that when we talk about marriage and family structure, it almost always centers around adults.
But the truth is that marriage has been one of the greatest benefits to children and the protection of children's rights and needs throughout history, throughout cultures. And we have by redefining marriage and even by relaxing the norms of marriage through policies like no fault divorce, we have significantly weakened a child's right to be in relationship with both their mother and father. That's a right that is widely accepted throughout the world and outlined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Um but it's not something that Is a part of the discussions that we have on marriage and family very often.
So, what I'm hoping to do is to put kids at the center of this discussion. And I want to do so using story. That the other side won the day when it came to redefining marriage because they were able to humanize their arguments. And in return, we relied too much on statistics and logic and studies. But it's the power of story that can really change hearts and minds.
And the stories of children is something that all of us can connect with because we've been that child or we've known that child. And we understand how difficult and how hard it is to lose a relationship with your mother or father or to have. Friction or loss in relationship to your mother and father. These are primal needs that all children have, and we suffer hurt. When when we miss out on that in some way.
Yeah, so if we think back to some of the shifts in. Our society's views on redefining marriage. We can give the statistics as to why children do better with a mom and a dad. We can talk about some of the health risks associated, especially with male sexual behavior. We can look at societal well-being and all of that.
And then all you need is, say, for a gay couple, real sweet-looking couple, two guys who seem to be really nice guys who've adopted a handicapped Korean child. And that that's it. That just won the argument right there. On the one hand, it's more compelling than facts, and it's also part of our society today where we're much more moved by story and narrative than by facts. But even if we're talking about the Holocaust, And we talk about the horrors of the Holocaust and all the numbers, and then tell the story of Anne Frank, that one story is going to generate more empathy and sympathy than the others.
So there was a website a few years ago with children of anonymous sperm donors. And the woman behind them. Very powerful. Yeah. I was reading one of the stories on the air and almost broke down reading it.
To her shock, when she went to liberals about this, they didn't want to hear it. They don't want it revealed the deeper ideology.
So what are some of the stories that are told on ThemBeforeus.com?
Well, we kind of break things up into three different categories. Another reason why I don't think that our arguments were compelling when we were making arguments about children's rights during the debate on the definition of marriage. is because many conservatives would come out in full force against gay marriage, but tended to be less passionate or silent about questions on divorce or questions that had to do with reproductive technologies because there's plenty of heterosexuals that are using third party donation to create children. And so I think that the other side rightly recognized that there was some double speak, some hypocrisy going on. And that's Absolutely.
An abomination, right? If you're gonna fight for children, you fight for all children. Yes. If you're gonna be against adult desires, then you need to not pick and choose which adults you're going to defend, right? Every adult needs to sacrifice for every child.
It doesn't matter if you're gay or straight. The role of adults and parents is to sacrifice for children, not to make children sacrifice for you. And unfortunately, the gay marriage debate came to us, and it didn't begin the struggles that children have with family structure. It in some ways was the culmination of years and years and years of normalizing Um Mother and fatherlessness through the sexual revolution, through no-fault divorce laws, which reduce the commitment to permanence within marriage, which children desperately need, is that permanent commitment from both parents. And so we have tried to, on this site, be very Fair and even-handed about making sure that all adults, we expect all adults, to protect the rights of all children.
And so we see the children affected mainly in three different groups. The first one is children of divorce and abandonment. Children who came from heterosexual unions. Um but who where one parent or both parents Simply chose what they wanted over committing to and loving and providing for the children in their life. And as a result, children pay the lifelong price.
The next group is donor conceived children. Whether they are being conceived by heterosexuals, homosexuals, singles, or couples, these children are being created with the intent to deny them a relationship with their mother and father. And then the other category is children with lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender parents. Who don't come into, who don't find themselves in the same sex parenting situation without having lost. a full or partial relationship with one of their biological parents.
So we try to highlight the impact that losing a relationship with a parent has had on all these three groups. because it's painful in all any way you split it, right? It's painful when you lose a relationship with the parent. And we do society a disservice when we hone in only on children of lesbian and gays and ignore the children of divorce, for example, because it's all the same story. All of these situations would be rectified if adults sacrificed so that children didn't have to.
Yeah, and Katie, what you say in terms of the hypocrisy of some of the conservative stand is absolutely true. I've said for many years that no-fault divorce in the church did more to undermine marriage than all gay activists combined.
So you're looking at this in a holistic way, and the unifying factor is what's best for the children. What about if we're told, well, studies now show that kids with two moms or two dads, they do just great.
So shouldn't you rejoice in that? Yeah it's I'm really glad you brought that up. Those studies are fundamentally flawed. Very few of them use random samples. Most of them are very small convenient samples, anywhere from like 20 to 400, I think, is the largest.
They're not longitudinal for the most part. And so what you have is oftentimes people who are recruited or who volunteer for a study that they understand is going to have a political impact, which obviously changes the demographics and responses that are given in those studies. Again, and also a lot of times it's the parents commenting on how they think their children are doing rather than measuring the actual outcomes for children who have been rated in their households.
So What I like to bring up is: look, social scientists unanimously agree that gender matters in parenting, that biological connection matters in parenting, and both of those two things you will see outlined on the homepage of them before us: biology matters and gender matters. And also, that children suffer trauma when they're separated from one or both biological parents. That non-biological caregivers tend to be less protective, connected. And permanent in the lives of children.
So, how is it then when you're not looking at same-sex parenting, social scientists agree on those four things? But suddenly when you look at same-sex parenting, even though there's always going to be a gender missing, always a biological connection missing, always the introduction of a non-related caregiver. Um, and always the trauma of losing at least one parent. How is it that those studies show that those children care no? Exactly, right?
Exactly. The answer is because those studies are flawed. That's the answer. Right, and the other thing, often the open secret is that The kids raised in the same-sex household, that the boys are often feminized by being raised by two moms, or girls masculinized being raised by two dads, or they tend themselves to be more promiscuous, or more confused about gender identity, or even themselves more prone to homosexuality. But those aren't considered negatives in the study, so they're not reported.
All right, we come back. Let's ask some large questions. And again, visit the website. We've just got a few more minutes with Katie Faust. Visit thembeforeus.com.
It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown, your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Friends, take a few minutes, visit thembeforeus.com.
Those stories are moving stories.
Some of you, many of you know the trauma of being raised in a divorced home, being torn apart. not knowing a mom or a dad, having identity questions. Thank God for adoptive parents who are pouring into kids and giving them new life and new hope. Thank God for that. But there's so many that brought into this world, and I'm a sperm donor.
You don't even know who your biological father is. Powerful stories, and then really excellent studies-the kind of thing that just gets your head clear. You look at them, it's like, ah, okay, right, right. There it is, clear as day. Thembeforeus.com, the woman behind this initiative, Katie Faust.
So, Katie. I was just reading a story about Carrie Grant and his upbringing, and the father alcoholic leaves the family, has the mother institutionalized. He was raised in an old, he said his mother was overprotective. He comes home when he's 11, finds out she's away at some resort or something. It turns out the dad had her institutionalized, and she was in a mental hospital for years before he got her out.
And then he said his mom dressed him, used to dress him in a dress when he was a little boy. He didn't know if he was a boy or a girl. But anyway, just had real issues with females, with affection, was married five times. According to the story, sabotaged the marriage with his behavior. And it all goes back to the upbringing.
Does that surprise you?
Well, what it makes me think is that so many people say, look, my heterosexual parents totally failed me.
So I would rather just have a child be safe and loved, right? And that's often the rebuttal. When we say, look, kids need to be in relationship with their mother and father whenever possible. This is the ideal situation to raise a child in. It gives them identity, it gives them biological connection, it gives them the dual gender influence.
They say, look, my heterosexual parents sucked. I'd rather just have been raised by a loving gay couple or by a single mother. And while you can, what you're doing there is you're kind of pitting one exception with another. Right, that of course there are very, very difficult situations where children grow up with both biological parents. But when you look at the statistical reality, The home of a married mother and father raising their children together is statistically the most likely place where children are going to be safe and loved, right?
If we really, really care about children being safe and loved, then we are going to encourage biological parents to get married and raise their children together. Unfortunately, what's happened is we have focused on the exceptions, right, of abusive fathers or neglectful mothers and instead exalted the exception of The same-sex parented couple who raised the handicapped Korean child, right? Which I actually know for a whole. Oh. Especially children, and have done it at great price to themselves.
So, I'm not saying that they can't and that there isn't value there. What I am saying is that. Um those exceptions should not negate the rule. That children long to be raised by, long to be known by, seek to be loved by both their mother and father. And what have you discovered in tracking some of the stories, say, of someone who had an anonymous sperm donor?
And then as they're growing up, they realize they don't know who their biological father is. I mean, the studies done on this are very powerful, poignant, and then the personal stories, when you hear them, that's what's really moving. What happens to that child or that now adult sense of identity? That is that The identity, the who am I, right? It's amazing.
There's one of the most recent stories we published is by a woman named Stephanie Blessing. And amazing woman didn't know that she was donor conceived until she was 32. Had a very close relationship with both her mother and her social father, who she believed to be her real father. shattered her world, right? She had been provided Two parents that loved each other, dual gender influence.
But that missing biological piece. Undid her, and she literally went back to the drawing board to say, Who am I? And then the realization of, oh my gosh, there's a stranger out there that I've never known who was. who is responsible for half of who I am, um, that she said it it plunged her into a depression for several weeks that it took a while to claw herself out of.
So that biolog that biological piece, you know, you can isolate it and say it does have a huge impact on a child's um Formation of their own identity. And it's critical.
So to intentionally deprive a relationship Um with one biological parent. Is a violation of a child's rights and will have an impact. On um Yeah. Their whole world really. You know what what's Really fascinating.
I have seen in some very liberal countries or cities an uprising against circumcision of boys in Judaism. And you shouldn't be allowed to do that because of the child's rights. You think, well, you're getting upset about that. But you've got no issue. with a couple making a decision.
That's the big thing. We're talking about making a decision. Making a decision to bring a child into the world or into a household, which by decision will not have either a mother or a father, because that child does have both. That child has both. That's the real issue.
So again, it's not, I have the right to do this. It's what's best for kids. Where do we, just lastly, Katie, where do we need to perhaps adjust our thinking right within the church, right among followers of Jesus? Have we bought into some of the mindset of the day where it's me first and children, the next generation second? Sure, because we're not just talking about marriage and family, right?
We are talking about. confronting A brick wall of cultural ideology that says if you want it, you have a right to it, and your happiness should be preeminent, and that your desires are king, right? that nobody should, if it makes you happy, do it. And so, I mean, we're getting all these messages simply about consumerism. And then that carries over into our through, you know, we see.
through that lens. Our obligations to our spouses and our children. And I love, you know, where it talks about in Romans, it says, don't be conformed to that pattern. Don't be conformed to the pattern of the world. Be transformed.
You transform by the renewing of your mind, right?
So we are transformed into Christ-likeness, and we look at him and we say, what did Christ do? He not only took responsibility for himself, he took responsibility for others. He is the ultimate example. Of not just a worthy adult, a strong man, but a Christian man who accepted Christian maturity, which is to accept responsibility for others as well. And so in our own marriages, in our own homes, First, we make sure that we are doing the adult thing and sacrificing so that children's rights are protected.
But beyond that, we look further and we say, what child in my world is being raised by two men where I can come in and really be the motherly influence, the woman in his life? What single mom is struggling to raise her child because she chose life and the guy bailed? How can I come in and be the protective man in that child's life? How can I be the safe? To the child who suffered through a divorce and legitimize their pain and be someone that they can talk to when everybody else is saying, oh, come on, you know, kids are resilient, they'll get over it.
Right, we can start to first take responsibility for our own house, but then also widen the circle and start taking responsibility for the other kids in our world who are suffering. Your friends, you'll be inspired and you'll be informed if you go to them before us. Thembeforeus.com. And by the way, if you're anywhere listening on our great Raleigh, North Carolina station, 7 o'clock tonight at Raleigh First Assembly, I'll be addressing many of these issues and how the church responds. Hey, Katie, keep up the good work, you're making a difference.
Thank you so much for having me, and goodbye, and thank you to all your listeners. All right, God bless. ThemBeforeus.com. Check it out. You'll be enriched.
It's the line of fire with your host, activist, author, international speaker, and theologian Dr. Michael Brown. Your voice of moral, cultural, and spiritual revolution. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH. Here again is Dr.
Michael Brown. Welcome, welcome to the line of fire. 866-348-7884 is the number two call. Last year. I was in Korea.
Trip number 12. to Korea. And I participated in a prayer service. On the uh border. of North and South Korea, the DMZ, the demilitarized zone.
And My burden for North Korea got deeper in doing so. And you you may have seen the satellite picture. If not, just get online and look for just Type in North Korea satellite or North Korea at night, all right? And you'll see something that's very striking. very jarring.
You you will see You will see A picture of lights all around all the surrounding areas at night, right? Lights on all over. But North Korea, darkness. North Korea Darkness. And you'll just see a little bit of light in Pyongyang, the capital of North Korea.
It's it's one of the mysteries How a country could be so brainwashed. Emperor worship. how the a whole population could be so twisted in what it actually believes and the reverence for the great leader. When the first dictatorial leader of North Korea died, some years back. the mourning and wailing for him was was pitiful.
You think, how could this happen? I was talking to South Korean friends, and their hearts were broken over seeing what happened with their North Korean neighbors. Last week, I was at a conference in Washington, D.C., sponsored by the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. On It was entitled World Summit. Against, excuse me, a world summit in defense of persecuted Christians.
So standing against the persecution of Christians. And one of the key reasons I was there was to meet different people. Meet those working with the suffering church. Meet those in the suffering church. And understand how we could work together better, and because by God's grace through radio.
Through articles, through the internet, through TV. By God's grace, we have a good platform to get a message out. I was looking for key strategic people. That I would meet along the way, that either would be great sources of information for me so I could share their stories with others.
sources of action, steps we could take, people I could interview on the radio.
So each day before before my meals there, I was not at all the meetings, but tried to get to what I could and then was there for meals with everyone, I'd stand and pray whom I was supposed to meet with. And suddenly someone would come over to me I hadn't seen in years and years.
Okay, that's the person. or a complete stranger to me. Oh, Doctor Brown, I've followed you for years and and it was productive that we talked.
So I'm sitting one night having dinner with my friend Robert Stearns. Leader of Eagle's Wings, pastor in Buffalo, New York, and a great friend of Israel, a great worship leader himself. And we were talking, and there was a woman to my left, a Korean woman. She was talking to someone else.
Well, towards the end of the meal, I turned to this woman and asked who she was, what she did. and was fascinated to find out that she is involved with advocating for ministry to the folks in North Korea or raising awareness about North Korea.
So Reverend Lisa Pak served on staff with Reverend Lim at the Light Presbyterian Church as education director for seven years. This is in Canada. Currently continues as the Lim family spokesperson and is involved in advocating for North Korea, that people understand what's happening there and take prayerful action. And when we talked about how, how did it happen? How did North Korea become what it is today?
She had some great insights.
So I think you're going to find this to be a fascinating interview. This was the introduction. We come back. We're going to dive into the interview with Lisa. I think you're going to find it very instructive.
Stay right here. Age the world O God of burning, cleansing flame. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 TRUTH.
Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us on the line of fire. 866-34-Truth. If you have a question about North Korea, I may take some calls, but I want to dive in to my discussion with Lisa Pak.
Lisa, thanks for joining us today on the line of fire. Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Brown.
Well, it's a joy.
Now, now, you're of Korean descent, but you've not lived most of your life in Korea. No, I I am of Korean descent, but sorry, yes, I am born in Canada and I have been involved with the North Korean ministry. for the last several years now since um Reverend Lynn was very in interested in it. And what is it then that drew him into this as a Korean minister? And now you've been drawn in.
It's one of the saddest, darkest stories on the planet. And when it comes to the church, of course, North Korea has been number one on the list of government-sponsored persecution of Christians worldwide for years now. It's a dark, painful story. What drew you in to take the stands you're taking?
Well, um let's Start with how North Korea became so closed. And it was a result of the Korean War. And the Korean War was 1950 to 1953. I'm too young to have experienced that, but my father was. Was born in 1946 and my mom in 1953.
So you've still got a generation of an older generation that is very, very much. Um they very much either experi experience the war or they are post-war children. I myself born in 1981 in Canada, so I personally did not experience this growing up in Canada, but then you get older and you just learn about the heritage of your parents a little bit more.
Now our church, through Reverend Lim, was involved in North Korean ministry in 1995. And so this was already several years, a generation after the war had been was over and a DMZ was put up, the 38th parallel. Um and in nineteen ninety five um our church got involved because There was a huge famine. and very much difficulty in North Korea. Sanctions were already in place by many of the westernized countries.
Um and nor we had already been doing many missions um into different countries, but When we had heard of the difficulty in North Korea, I was just in high school. Reverend Lim was already the senior pastor of our church in Mississauga now. He had said, we're helping so many people groups as much as we can. We have to do something for North Korea.
So that's how the ministry got started.
Now, let me just back up before that, since you you go back in history a little bit. Many of us growing up had to read George Orwell books in school, Animal Farm, in 1984. And North Korea really is Those books, I mean, with the propaganda, with the media, with everything double-speak and things turned upside down, and it's mind-boggling. But this had to happen somehow in increments because initially, when the nation was divided, people It's got the same people in the North and the South, all Korean. And one in the South just develops normally and democracy and open communication and understands reality.
In the North, everything changes. How long did it take, if you know the answer, how long did it take for a nation to be brainwashed?
Well, you've got the founding leader, Kim. Yeah. And then you've got the his son who was Kim Jong-ir and now you've got the current leader, Kim Jong-un. And we have to recognize, like it's it was strange for me when I first got interested and involved in North Korean ministry and just advocating for it. How can they actually believe this?
But we have to understand that there's about like even right now probably four or five generations of young people who don't know the outside world. Again, For us who are coming from the outside, especially the younger generation, such connectivity, you know, social media, you've got internet, you've got, you know, everything almost in an instant. But North Korea has done an incredibly effective job in isolating its people. Because what had happened, and we have we have to appreciate what's going on in the North Korean mentality. After the war, they went through such hardship and Um you know, the United States, you know, um and just the allied forces that h um helped South Korea become what it is, um had to battle the Communist forces and just the influences in the North.
And you know, stuff happens in war. And there was a lot of bombings and a lot of suffering.
So North Korea said, you know what? Almost like a kind of like a defensive mechanism. We don't want anything outside anymore. We've gone through so much suffering. We're just going to put up our walls where and our closest ally at this point is China.
And so I think what had happened in terms of foreign policy was we have suffered at the hands of foreigners so much We don't want anything else. And one of the things that the world has to understand is that Korea's relationship with China goes back centuries. It goes back. Even bef for the southern part of the peninsula, which is now South Korea. Yeah.
between Koreans and Chinese goes back centuries.
So it's not something we're going to just forget because of a three year war. It's something that North Korea um really looked towards their um northern brothers, if you will. That's the way that the language, if you look in um the history of the in Far East Asia. Look at the language, the way that the Korean people would refer to the Chinese people would be like Hyungjie, which is brother. And so that's how It all kind of unfolded, and when the foreign policy after the war went up, it was just like, We're done, we're done with the outside world, we're suffering too much.
The only people we think we can trust. are the people that we trusted for centuries before, and they had come to our aid several times in the past. And so that's how that relationship was one of the only influences in North Korea and how they shut themselves off from the rest of the world. Yeah, about four or five generations that have never really considered the outside world friendly. Very interesting.
We talked uh at the table about some of the Korean mentality, which is very different than the American or especially American, but even North American mentality that would allow for more of this oppressive type of regime and groupthink.
So help my listeners understand that. Um German philosophy and just outlook on the world tends to be more individualistic, more, you know, more prone to you know, just your own life, your own way of thinking, freedom is a huge thing. That's not to say that the thinking patterns when you cross um over to the East is different, but it's ju uh is um does not appreciate, I should say, liberty or individuality, but it is more communal. It is very family oriented.
So when you even look at your friends or families that come from the East, you'll get a lot more communal households with multi-generation. We still respect our elders. A lot of young women like myself, until we're married, it's just very normal to stay in the house with your parents.
So you have a different mindset. It's not necessarily better or worse. It's just completely different outlook. Western thinkers' philosophy tends to be very linear, very logical. Eastern thinking tends to be very cyclical and very communal, very relational.
And so if you talk with some of your Western businessmen, And women, when they go over to the East, they realize that they have to adopt a different outlook. You can't just sit at the table and get right down to business. There's kind of like you have to get to know the person, show respect. It's very different the way that it's done out East. And my personal opinion in my studies, and just growing up in the Eastern mindset, sometimes even in our own home.
The communal mindset may have made it easier for something like communism to set in and to, because we really do respect our leaders and we really do our elders as well, even in the churches, even in our homes. It's kind of like when somebody in a position of power or somebody who's older than you says something, our immediate response is: well, why not? We should obey. Um and it's c considered a virtue in Confucianist um philosophy. Yeah, so that that mindset would really play in much more, much tougher to have something like that happen in America with our individualism.
And often the the family being so broken up and In the community where I live now, there are a lot of families from India, and you constantly see multi-generational families walking down the street together. The grandparents, the parents, the child, they're all going to the park together. It's just much more common. And having been in Korea many times and over to Asia almost 50 trips, yeah, the respect for elders, much, much greater. Even, look, you have a personality-based cult like the Moonies, Reverend Sung Young Moon.
And in Korea, you have the birth of the great megachurches there.
So again, this can be for good or for bad. And I think they're redeeming qualities in each side. And on the other hand, negative qualities on each side.
So let's just paint a picture, take a minute or so to do it, and then we'll explore this more on the other side of the break. How bad is it right now in North Korea? Paint a picture for me. When we When we started the ministry in 1995, there was an area that the North Koreans, this is under the second leader, so Kim Jong-un's father, Kim Jong-ir, that was set aside for economic like kind of like experimenting with foreign economics. And so it's called the Rajin Sambong.
And that's where we started. Um I it's hard to believe, but I I've experienced this first hand as well when we were um ex um we encountered some youngsters who came over to Canada for a sports Yeah. You're getting kids who are twenty-four years old who literally buy when I look at them, I'm like they're no more than middle school. But because of the lack of nutrition, because of the lack of just um Yes, actually it's that's what it comes down to. Lack of nutrition, their food quality and just the nutrients that are in the food that is available, they literally look like maybe at least five, seven, ten years behind in terms of their physical growth.
You got those greens now?
Alright, tell you what, st stay right there. We want to get a picture of how bad things are in North Korea physically, spiritually, and then what can we do? We'll be right back with Lisa Pak. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown.
Get into the line of fire now by calling 866-34 Truth. Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Welcome back to the line of fire, 866-34TRUTH. All right, just a few minutes.
We want to try to paint a big picture.
So Lisa, you're talking about Physical deprivation. for the people of North Korea.
So it's not just that there's been starvation. There's malnourishment. Uh-huh. They were a story. Um Like from the North Korean escapees, and some of them have been sharing their stories.
Stories now. I think America as well, and several have come to Canada to share their stories to bring awareness. If you read some of their books that record down their testimonies and what they experienced. Um there are stories, and this is common, I've heard from several people, that um Because there was so little to eat, they would take the bark off the tree. And it's just like, what can you eat from that?
Um they would take the bark of of trees, all the grass. Um but also In ter in terms of some of the um concentration camps that have um some people have escaped from them. They've told us about it that They will look through the um cow dung or so that they can get kernels of grain of anything. And you're kind of picturing this in North America and you're like, yeah, right. Because dumpster dieting we think is it's unnecessary because there's food shelters and all that, but there's that much lack of food and they're still starving.
Um at the height of famines, people um really there's nothing to eat. And so my dad tells the story because he's been in there once, a few times, and he said. You know, there was a a man who was trying to lead a cow up a hill and he's got some sticks on the cow, but this cow itself was so skinny that it couldn't walk up the hill with that burden on its back. And he says, I've never seen anything like it before. And then it broke his heart because not only the people, but every living creature is finding that it is difficult to eat in that country.
They're spending all this money on military on top of it. And then, say, just power supply, electricity, what happens at night? Um at night, um, You can look at this in Google Map or something like that. Literally, the only dark spot in the world is North Korea. It kind of looks like South Korea is an island in the South Peninsula.
Pyongyang gets electricity, but there are still moments when all of a sudden they'll shut down because they don't have the infrastructure to get electricity in a way that can maintain a city.
So Yeah, uh again, these are realities, as I said just setting up uh the interview a few minutes earlier, that when you look on the map that and you just put in North Korea at night or North Korea's satellite picture. It is it is shocking. It it's a picture of the darkness. And then what about persecution of Christians or just persecution of of freedom of thought there? It's it's not just Christianity.
They're against any religion and any idea that can possibly go to encourage people to think liberally. um or think for themselves. And so one of the charges um that Reverend Lin was charged with was using um religion, specifically Christianity, to try and overthrow um the state. And that's a serious crime. Christianity is thought to be one of the most threatening religions out there because when we commit ourselves to Jesus Christ, we don't fear death.
We don't fear the authority of government. We'll submit to reasonable governments. There's no reason why we should go around overthrowing every government, but it's that kind of strain of thought that makes them really um antagono uh antagonistic and aggressive against Christianity. Yeah, and again, whole families can be persecuted, whole families put in prison, and the horror stories abound. And I asked you a question: how is it you have folks in North Korea working in other countries, and they are not now having their eyes open to reality?
And you're saying, well, they're told not to trust anything. It's all deception around them. And then, plus, they've got family members there. They don't do what they're told. That could be it for their families.
So it's an oppression on a level we can't really relate to. Honestly. All I've known to do is pray for mercy and pray for ministries that try to get the gospel in. I mean, I really don't know what. Can be done.
You're advocating for North Korea.
So, what would you love to see in terms of response? What can Christians do? What prayer is Prayer is the most important. That's where the spiritual battle is won. And there's also practical things that we can do in follow-up prayer.
And one of the things that we advocate is that speak to your local authorities or write letters so that the free country, countries like Canada, countries like America, countries like who have influence in the international scene could really challenge North Korea to begin to accept change or at least you know, be called on their human rights violations and not just, you know, just ignore it or just say, well, do you know what, they're gonna do their own thing. One of the things that some critics of international policy have observed is that the way that North Korea is treated is some somehow very similar in in many ways to the appeasement that happened When you're just like, you know what, they can't go that far. It can't be possible. But it has been attested. There is a lot of witnesses and documentation showing that there are concentration camps.
in North Korea as well. Another thing that I would encourage for people who are very interested in how North Korea and how it got to be where it is is to study the history of the Korean War. One of the wars that is not very much talked about, but there was a lot of casualties, a lot of hurt. The comfort women come from all that as well in terms of the colonization by Japan. and how the thirty eighth parallel got to be there because it was influence from the communist that was coming down from then the Soviet Union and China and also the capitalistic and just the Western influence in South Korea that made the country what it is.
And so how it got to be like that will give you a mindset on why North Korea is the way it is. Got it. So is there a website or any places that you'd recommend people go for more information? Um there is There are several organizations, also, many of them American-based. There's one in Toronto called Hanvoy, so those of us who are from Canada can definitely connect with them.
There's also Link. I forgot what the L and I stand for, but the N and the K is North Korea. And you can probably Google this. If you speak to people in Korean churches, local Korean churches, they'll probably be able to also connect you with resources in your area as well. Because the Korean community is very tight-knit, many of them are associated with churches or know somebody who goes to church, they'll be able to link you wherever you are in your community to a resource that is North Korean.
Yeah. Lisa, thank you. Thank you for the information. Thank you for painting this picture. Thank you for carrying the burden.
For so many of us, it's out of sight, out of mind. Right now, North Korea is in mind because of the nuclear threats and the rattling of the sword and what's going to happen and the tension over that.
So let us, at the very least, pray, God have mercy. God have mercy. Go to the web and look online. Just again, North Korea at night. Just the satellite picture will draw you.
And find out. Yeah, tell you what. We've got like 15 seconds. Go ahead. Just one last thing.
Please don't think that the people are reflected by the regime. It's different. The people are sheep being led to the slaughter. Yeah, of course, you have sinners like anywhere else, but these are people who are being oppressed in a horrific regime. One of the most ugly things in world history taking place in front of our eyes while the world watches.
Let us, at the very least, pray, hey, Lisa, keep up the good work. We trust that God will intervene. Thank you. Thank you so much Dr. Brown.
All right, God bless you. Hey, friends, just a quick note, a quick reminder: join me. Three hours from now, First Assembly, Raleigh. That's right. I'm in First Assembly at Raleigh, Pastor Chad Harvey.
Details on my website, askdrbrown.org, speaking about homosexuality and Christianity. You'll find it eye-opening, full of love and truth. See you there in a few hours. Mm.
Whisper: parakeet / 2025-07-05 06:43:12 / 2025-07-05 06:45:36 / 2
