From Cancelled to Country Music Award Winner

The following program is recorded content created by the Truth Network. From the crisis in Ukraine, to the pushing back against cancel culture, to the controversy around the Shroud of Turin, we've got you covered today. It's time for The Line of Fire with your host, biblical scholar and cultural commentator, Dr. Michael Brown.

Your voice for moral sanity and spiritual clarity. Call 866-34-TRUTH to get on the line of fire. And now, here's your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Here we are friends together, standing strong for the Lord, here to encourage you, here to strengthen you further, here to call you higher. Michael Brown, delighted to spend this time with you on the line of fire. Here's the number to call, 866-34-TRUTH, 866-34-87-884. I want to put a particular subject in front of you in a moment and ask for your calls on that subject.

But we're going to cover some other ground before we get to that subject. We are broadcasting again from our studio at Christ for the Nations in Dallas, Texas. I'm here this week teaching on revival and the essential need for visitation. My heart gets stirred as many times as I've taught on this.

My heart gets stirred. And I pray that as you listen today, that same fire will burn that says, God, we've got to see you God, we've got to see the name of Jesus glorified. God, we've got to see your people strengthened so the world may know who you really are. All right, before we talk about Ukraine, before we talk about pushback against cancel culture, I have two guests who will be joining me at the bottom of the hour. They are very strong and articulate advocates for the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin. We had two guests on a couple weeks back from the Museum of the Bible as this very important interactive exhibit was being launched there at the Museum of the Bible and will be there running through the end of July, I believe, in Washington, D.C.

But as we had discussion online about it, there were many who were saying, yeah, I believe it's real, but others saying, no, it's not real for the following reasons. So I thought, well, let me bring these guests on. It gets us back talking about the resurrection of Jesus. There are a lot of fascinating things having to do with this. Let me get these guests on.

They will make their articulate case for the Shroud. In the meantime, if you do not believe it's authentic or if you have serious questions, maybe you'd like to think it's authentic but you have serious questions, give me a call, 866-34-TRUTH, and at the bottom of the hour, we'll take some of your calls as well. We have been getting emails from our missionaries stationed in Ukraine and from Leanne Peterson, who was on with us talking about Ukraine a little over a week ago. She still can't get back in there. Obviously, from America, she was heading over even with war looming but has not been able to get back in. But there's one city where we had a whole family working there for many years. There's another family where one of the women we sent out, Leanne's friend, married to a Ukrainian pastor.

They've been doing church work and helping orphans and children in need. Some of them have taken refuge in Poland right now. Others remain in Ukraine. We're getting updates of Russian troops.

They were on their way towards their city and then headed to another city, another city they could be coming to. It's not that well protected. It drills things home even closer. Seeing headlines about a maternity ward in Ukraine being bombed and children trapped under the rubble. Did Russia do it intentionally? That would be horrific. That would be an absolute war crime. Did they do it unintentionally? It would still be a war crime if it happens in that way because of the casualties.

You can't just miss in these ways. Either way, there's a lot of suffering. Then you think of many of the Russian soldiers that maybe did not want to be doing this or had no choice or thought they were fighting for some other purpose and they're dying.

There's a lot of suffering, a lot of pain. We know that at any moment things could ignite on a much larger level. It has been pointed out by some commentators that it's unlikely that Putin would want to launch a nuclear war because he doesn't want to die. You say, well, how do you know that?

Well, just look at him when he's meeting with world leaders sitting 20, 30 feet across from them at a table because he doesn't want any chance of getting COVID. That seems to be someone saying, hey, I value my life and I'm trying to preserve it and I'm not on a kamikaze mission, but we don't know. On the one hand, you just say, America, NATO just needs to step in and stop this thing.

Boom, that's it. Women, children, innocent people, babies getting killed. You can't let this happen.

Just stop it. On the other hand, people say, if you do that, then many, many more people will die. Many more Ukrainians will die. Many more Russians will die. Many Europeans will die.

Many Americans will die. Why in the world do we want to escalate it? Again, it's this difficult situation and that's what we need to keep praying, God, stretch out your hand and act. Your will be done in the midst of this conflict and give world leaders wisdom and restraint. I know, I'm speaking personally, I get so focused on whatever I'm involved with in ministry and projects I'm working on that I'll always have this in my head, what's happening in Russia and Ukraine, but it's not foremost there so that I'm not praying as I ought. So let's not just get used to this being in the news, okay? Let's keep this close to our heart as we continue to pray. And I know many of you have been doing that very thing.

No, it's not the only crisis in the world today, but it is one that's right in front of our eyes with a very high level of visible suffering and the ripple effect implications could be very, very severe. All right, I promised you this year that we would be drawing your attention to different ways of pushing back in our society today where people are saying no to cancel culture, where people are saying no to the radical left, where there is a taking of ground, some of it secular, some of it spiritual, some of it mixed together. But I promised you that we'd be bringing you reports. If you don't yet have my book, The Silencing of the Lambs, The Ominous Rise of Cancel Culture and How We Can Overcome It, you can get it on Kindle right now, so Amazon Kindle at half the normal price. So when things are made available, this is rare, a brand new book being made available like this, but the publisher really wants to get it into your hands. And it's the number one new release in a few different categories on Amazon. I was pleased to see that.

Let me tell you this honestly. When I write a book, by the time it's published, it's months after it was submitted to the publisher. Every so often we get something out like instantly, like in the midst of COVID, we got some things out instantly. I was able to write a book in like eight days and the publisher get it out in a couple of weeks. But for the most part, you submit a manuscript and when you're finished with it, it's between nine and 12 months before it comes out. It's very standard with a publisher. And then what I'll try to do is keep it as updated as I can through the editing process so that we're not looking at material just a year old.

We'll look at things much more recent. But by the time it comes out, I've already written one or two or three other books. I'm working on other projects. So I like to refresh myself as to the contents of the book. And what I'll often do is get the audio version of the book and then I listen to it, someone else reading it. So I've been listening to The Silencing of the Lambs and I've been stirred as I've been listening to my own book.

You'll find a ton of material in there that's incredibly eye-opening example after example from society and then a call to be courageous and strong. And once more, let me say there is a pushback taking place. There are those with a very different agenda, but invariably they overplay their hand and people say, what? Enough is enough. It's the same with the devil himself. He will overplay his hand.

He will go too far because it's his demented nature to do that. And many people wake up in the midst of the process. So I'm going to focus in a moment on some really interesting news with country music star Morgan Wallen, who is basically canceled and deplatformed last year and banned from the American Country Music Awards. And this year won.

He came in first in his category. So it's a bit of a turnaround. We'll come to that. But let me share some headlines with you. All right. And we've been giving these to you one after another. How about this one? This is February 18th.

So we're doing this every couple of weeks and catching up. Headline on Fox News. I'm a Team USA World Masters track athlete, mom and coach calling for the protection of women's sports. So here's an editorial by a woman, Team USA World Masters track athlete. She's a mother. She's a coach. And she says, if male bodied athletes continue competing on female teams, it will be the end of women's sports.

Once again, it's this radical trans activism that's getting a lot of pushback in the society. OK, how about this? Cancel this. This is on PJ Media dot com. Dave Chappelle, producing four comedy specials for Netflix. Now, I don't think I've ever seen Dave Chappelle perform a clip of him, his comedy routines. Apparently he makes fun of lots of different people and crosses all kinds of lines, as comedians commonly do, and said some things that were upsetting to to trans activists. Now, my own position is I will expose the activism and the madness of the culture while reaching out to the people, to the individuals with compassion. He's doing what he does as a comedian.

So there is outrage over that. He's got to be canceled. Get him off Netflix, deplatform him. Well, I imagine Netflix is looking at this more for money than for ideology. So I'm not commending them for their moral stand, nor am I agreeing with all of Dave Chappelle's humor. But it's interesting to see that obviously his fans still like him and Netflix says, OK, four more comedy specials instead of canceling him, giving him more specials. Again, I'm not a fan of Netflix in many ways, and I haven't watched Dave Chappelle to be able to say I like his comedy routines or not.

And he me I'm sure he says things that cross lines that I wouldn't cross. I'm just saying there is the push, but we've been telling you it's coming, friends. We've been telling you we promise to keep documenting it this year. All right.

How about this? This is on Bloomberg Quint dot com. And the article is simply titled Wokeism Has Peaked.

It's an op ed by Taylor Cowen. Wokeism has peaked. I'm calling it Wokeism Has Peaked. Yes, it will remain a highly influential movement that will probably continue to spread globally. But in the U.S., at least wokeism and the woke will ebb. I agree that things only go so far before people say, what?

This is crazy. You can't even say you crack a little joke, say something, give one opinion that's not politically correct, out, canceled, done with you. Americans are not going to have it. I'm not just talking about what's happening in the church, friends. I'm talking about what's happening in the wider culture. This should encourage us as believers. How much more should we be standing and speaking and pushing back? How much more should we be exposing how loveless this cancel culture is, how it is lacking in redemption, how it is lacking in mercy, how we should be the ones setting the complete opposite tone.

Yeah, you blew it. But there's mercy. There's a new start in the cross.

Yeah, you said and did things that were ugly, but you're really repenting and trying to make things right. We welcome you and we embrace you. Let's just see here. Let's go over here. Okay.

I tell you what, we'll come back at a few more headlines for you, and then I'll get over to Morgan Wallen. Then, bottom of the hour, Shroud of Turin. If you don't think it's real, if you've got questions, now's a good time to call 866-343. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks for joining us today on the line of fire. By God's grace, we help strengthen your moral and spiritual backbone. As we stand together, then others stand. Billy Graham said that courage is contagious. So one person stands, one person says, I can't back down, I can't compromise, and then it spreads and it spreads.

And then next thing, it's not just one or two, it's so many standing up. In that light, jot down the date, April 14th. April 14th. Starting next week, I'll give you more details on it. If you already have the Silencing of the Lambs, read the last chapter. You get more details.

April 14th, mark it on your calendar, and then read Esther 4-14. All right. A couple more headlines. This is from Finland. Recommendation of the Council for Choices in Health Care in Finland.

Medical treatment methods for dysphoria related to gender variance and minor. Different countries now, Finland, Sweden, they're saying, you know, we need to step back. Many physicians in the UK saying the same thing. When a kid presents his gender variant, when Sally, who's 12, is convinced that she's really Sam, or when Andrew, who's 7, is convinced he's really Andrea, that we need to change our approach. In some cases, they're making it very dogmatic.

In other cases, there's more flexibility. But they're saying, we shouldn't put these kids on hormone blockers or puberty blockers, hormones. We shouldn't prepare them for sex change surgery. Let's give them a chance to outgrow this. Let's look for other issues. Let's look for other emotional things that are going on.

Ah, a little sanity. We remember Kelly Nugent that was on with me, Kelly Scott Nugent that was on with me a couple weeks back and raising her voice and shouting as loudly as possible about the dangers of transitioning children. This is over a week ago.

If you haven't seen the show, listened to the show, by all means, check it out from last Wednesday, so March 3rd. And she's sending me notes. Here's another young person committed suicide. Here's another between 7 and 10 years after the sex change surgery, committed suicide. Oh, I thought this was going to fix everything.

No, often, very often, quite the contrary. People are waking up. People are waking up. We've been shouting about this for years.

People are waking up. Let's just see. Hang on. Let me get back to this headline. Jerusalem Post, LGBTQ education and Israel's illiberal left, Tal Geboah, comes under fire for challenging Orwellian doublethink. So there are some on the left who are challenging an aggressive LGBTQ curriculum in children's schools. Again, people that you would not expect to be speaking up are speaking up and saying, what's going on? And why are you doing this? And why this indoctrination?

And why putting forward things the way that you are? How about this? This is Trey Voices. This is Kelly Scott Nugent, trans adults and others, screaming to stop childhood medical transition and breaking news. Texas declares sex change procedures and puberty blockers for kids child abuse. This is Texas declaring it. Now, Kelly, on the air last week, has taken great issue with Texas and saying that Governor Abbott has received lots of money from transgender activists and things like this. In any case, and we've got some folks that are going to be investigating that, just looking into it to see what's what. Kelly's given us a lot of information on that. But the fact is, Texas is now taking public and yes, this is child abuse.

Yes, there is a better way. All right. I'm going to stop with headlines there.

I've got a few more, but I'm not going to get to them right now. Let's talk about Morgan Wallen. I've never been into country music. No insult to country music.

But before I was saved, since I've been saved, I've never been into country music. So I don't know the big stars, maybe some of the biggest names. I don't know the current trends or anything like that.

But Morgan Wallen was apparently very, very popular last year. He's drunk, comes home, he's outside of his house, talking, talking to a friend, uses the N-word, says some other things that are inappropriate. Somebody videotapes the whole thing and goes public.

So it's terrible. He's shamed for it and and basically canceled overnight here. It's a quick little summary of what happened to him.

Let's see. His music was pulled by Cumulus Media. They sent a directive to its 400 plus stations, remove his songs from their playlist. Now, instantly, instantly, iHeartRadio, Entercom, Cable Network, CMT, Satellite Service, Sirius XM, Streaming Service, Pandora removed all of his songs. 27 years old removed all of his songs.

Variety noted that Wallen's music is not currently appearing on platforms like Spotify, Apple Music. He was he was canceled from the country music awards. This was this was a year ago. Out. Canceled. He apologized profusely. He said, I'm embarrassed and sorry. And I used an unacceptable, inappropriate racial slur that I wish I could take back. There are no excuses to use this type of language ever. I want to sincerely apologize for the word using the word. I promise to do better.

He donated a half million dollars to the Black Music Action Coalition and other black serving organizations. Still canceled. There's no way back. His sister, Ashlyn, was not happy with this.

This is what she wrote. There are only three things you should ever have to do about a mistake. Admit it, learn from it and don't repeat it. Cancel culture is the worst thing that has come out of our digital world.

It leaves no room for forgiveness and growth, in turn leaving no opportunity for individuals who have made mistakes to learn from them. If you make a mistake or you do something stupid, then apologize. Correct your mistake and learn through personal growth. Ah, I'm not in cancel culture. You make a mistake, you're out. You make it 10 years ago when it comes out today, you're out. She said, the world we live in thrives off drama and bringing others down.

I refuse to be part of that. If my family or my friends made a mistake and apologize, I'm going to listen, accept it, and expect them to learn from their mistake. Someone who's truly sorry should be forgiven, not continuously bashed. Your past mistakes do not define you.

It is how you choose to move forward that does. Have you ever blown it? You ever said, done something inappropriate? You've ever wished you could take a word back or an action back or got caught in something embarrassing, doing something you shouldn't be doing? Don't you want forgiveness? Don't you want redemption? Don't you want a way to make things right? Don't you want a way to move forward in the future? We're not saying just stick your head in the sand and make believe it never happened. We're not saying don't take responsibility.

We're not minimizing how offensive some things can be, but shouldn't there be forgiveness and mercy and redemption? Well, what's interesting with this tremendous attempt to cancel him, Variety reports December 20th of 2021, so a few months back, country star Morgan Wallen is ending 2021 in a place few would have expected to find him a few months ago, in the number one spot on Billboard's R&B hip-hop chart. He did a song called Broadway Girls with rapper Lil Durk, so a black rapper, Lil Durk, so here's a white guy and a black rapper together. It came out before Christmas, and it headed to the top of the chart as number one. By the way, I'm not saying it's a good song. I'm not saying the lyrics are good. That's not my issue. I'm not saying, wow, what a cool video. That's not the issue. It's just the masses of people liked him, and here he is joining together with an African-American, white guy and African-American joining together, and it's number one.

Isn't that interesting? Then this, so it's Monday night, and he wins an award for Album of the Year from the Academy of Country Music, their 57th annual awards event. He's canceled. He can't appear there last year. He wins Album of the Year there this year. CNN reported Morgan Wallen was removed from the Academy of Country Music Awards ballot last year, Country Music Awards ballot last year after being caught on video using a racial slur.

This year, he had a big night, and he thanked people in his speech who had shown him grace along the way. Friends, I've been telling you, and I will continue to tell you, the pushback is here. The pushback is rising. Under no circumstances am I calling on us as followers of Jesus to be the new bullies. Well, people have been bullying us. You can't bully us.

We're going to bully you. No, that's the flesh fighting the flesh. That's overcoming evil with evil. That's fighting bad with bad. That's not the way we do this. Dr. King said darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can drive out darkness. I'm encouraged in a couple of things. I'm encouraging, once again, this is a theme you'll hear from me over and over, let's be better than the cancel culture.

Let's be better than the ones that show no mercy, no redemption. Just looking at my clock here. I think I can tell this story quickly. One of our friends who lived in Maryland when we lived there, she was in her 60s. She had a PhD in biology, very active in the pro-life movement.

She was involved in an Operation Rescue event in, I believe it was upstate New York. All these women were there. Others were there as well. They sat down in front of the abortion clinic. They got arrested, carried off.

It really awakened people to what was happening with abortion and sent out a message to the community, even if it only stopped things for a couple of hours. They're on the bus. They've just been arrested.

They're sitting there, the women on one bus. Another lady is arrested and brought on the bus. She was actually a pro-abortion protester. She was there to protest against the pro-lifers. Well, she is arrested. The police mistake her. She's arrested.

She's on the bus. She's trembling with fear because she's with all these evil, monstrous, anti-abortion activists who probably want to hurt her. Well, they were just themselves when they were just Christians, when they just loved the Lord and loved her. She came to faith. She got born again.

She had such a wrong conception of our side that when she finally ran into it, it changed her life. So let's be better than the cancel culture and let's lead the way in having courage and standing for what's right. Parents, with your kids in school, stand for what's right. Don't be nasty. Don't be violent or threatening, but stand for what's right and speak the truth in love.

Students on campus do the same. You may be ostracized by people. You'll be accepted all the more by God and He will be with you.

And little by little, the tide will change where you are. Okay. We'll be right back with our special guest to talk more about the Shradiff journey. It's the line of fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the line of fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on the line of fire, 866-34-TRUTH. If you do not believe that the Shroud of Turin is authentic, because there's a major exhibit, highly interactive, high-tech exhibit at Museum of the Bible now through the end of July, it's something that's going to be coming up a lot in discussion in the news. And it's really fascinating. So I don't plan to be talking about this a lot, but I wanted to devote a little more time and bring on some folks who are really, really enthusiastic in saying, yes, this is real.

It's even a sign from God. So let me just take a moment to introduce my two guests. Myra Adams is a Jewish-believing Catholic woman. We met because we both post articles on Town Hall and other conservative websites. And she is the co-founder and executive director of SignFromGod.org. It's a ministry devoted to educating people about the Shroud of Turin. Also on with me today is Russ Brielle.

We'll find out if I'm mispronouncing his name. He's been researching and lecturing on the Shroud of Turin for over 30 years and has given a presentation called Shroud Encounter, which has been seen by over 1,000 audiences across the U.S. and Canada. And he's given presentations on colleges and universities as well as churches of all denominations. So without further ado, let's bring my guests on. Myra, great to have you on the air today. And Russ as well, welcome to the broadcast. Thank you for having us.

Hey, great to be with you. Hey, Russ, how do you pronounce your last name? Last name is Brielle.

B-R-E-A-U-L-T. All right, I got it kind of close. All right, Myra, let's start with you. SignFromGod.com. Where did this come from? Why are you so enthusiastic about the Shroud? First of all, it's SignFromGod.org.

That's very important there. Why am I so enthusiastic? I think it's because I firmly believe with all my heart that the Shroud of Turin is in fact the authentic burial shroud of Jesus Christ. So for that reason, that gets me excited, and it gets millions of other people excited because the mysteries that this cloth has are unexplainable. And Myra, what kind of impact have you seen that this has had on people when they see evidence or purported evidence of the resurrection of Jesus?

What kind of effect has it had on people? Well, I think it can have a confirmation of faith, or if you don't have faith, I like to look at the Shroud as the doubting Thomas of our time, physical proof that Christ in fact was scourged and tortured and crucified, and in fact died, and we call the Shroud oftentimes the world's first selfie, because it reflects how he looked, I believe, how he looked the second before he was resurrected. All right, so I've asked people to weigh in on social media with questions they have about the Shroud, because when we had guests on a couple of weeks back from Museum of the Bible, a lot of posts were posting this, this is real, and others saying it can't be real for X, Y, Z reasons, so in a little while I'm going to present some of the objections, some of the issues, and give you an opportunity to respond. And folks, if you want to call in and raise your question about the Shroud, 866-348-7884. Russ, what got you interested in this subject?

Oh, probably space. Just being in the right place at the right time. All right, well, yeah, tell me more. I was a writer for the college newspaper all the way back in 1980, and News of the Shroud was huge at that time. We had a whole team of scientists go to Turin in 1978, and National Geographic, they did a big spread on it in June of 80, so I asked if I could write some articles on it, and I got the green light, and I did a lot of research, talked to some of the scientists to get some quotes, and I got hooked.

And I said, man, this is a seriously cool mystery, and nobody knows anything about it. So I've been involved ever since. All right, and when you give a presentation, say at a college campus or a university campus, you certainly will have a lot of people, professors, students who don't believe this is authentic, who have a real problem even with the idea of the resurrection of Jesus. Have you seen people shift their views or have their eyes opened as a result of your presentation?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, in all settings, whether it's academic or military or churches, I used to do a lot with the U.S. Army Chaplaincy. I had one young recoup come up to me afterwards, and he said, you know, I was an atheist when I walked in here, but this thing scared the hell out of me.

And I said, well, that's probably a good thing. So I've had countless number of people that have told me or written to me, emailed me how much of an impact that it has on them in terms of their faith and whether they didn't believe at all or maybe they had lots of questions and doubting. So it has a different impact on every different person. Got it, got it. And when someone says this scared the hell out of me, we hear that very literally.

We don't hear that as idiomatic, but literally. So, Mara, from your viewpoint, having researched this and we've interacted a lot on political things and you're a thinking person, it's not just like your religious fanatic and you're going to believe whatever church says, religious leader says, you're happy to push back against the prevailing narrative and you've got the courage to do it. What makes you so sure that this is real, that this is literally the burial cloth or part of the burial cloth in which Jesus was buried and entombed? Well, to make a long, long answer, very short, I would just say that all the science today, modern science literally cannot explain why this image of a crucified man is on a linen cloth.

They cannot explain it at all. And that's just, you know, the first major mystery. There are so many more, particularly one thing that is most visual mystery of all is what's called the photographic evidence. And that was in 1898, the shroud was photographed for the first time. And anyone who's seen the shroud know it's a rough colored, faint, you know, 14 foot by three foot cloth.

And you can make out the image, but you know, you can't really see it that much. But when it was first photographed, what happened was it became what we call a photo negative image. And that led people to then understand that the shroud itself is a negative.

And when the film was developed, it became a positive. So that black and white image that you often see of the shroud was not discovered until 1898. So for centuries, there was this mystery that lived within this cloth, that when it was finally discovered in 1898, the authorities in turn, and in the Vatican, it's like they didn't even know what to do with it, they basically told the photographer to be quiet about it, and not even bring it up again, they had no idea why this mystery, you know, even appeared within this cloth.

And it wasn't until 1931, when it was photographed again, and the same result happened. That's only one of the many mysteries. So it's really basically, the more you know about the shroud, the more the mysteries. And that is why, in fact, the Museum of the Bible exhibition is called Mystery and Faith.

And I literally helped spearhead it starting in May of 2018. So we're kind of closing the loop here when you had the two curators of the Museum of the Bible on your show, about two weeks ago, signed from God, Russ is also a board member. He literally brought this idea to the Museum of the Bible to do this exhibit, and it opened up on February 26th.

Got it, got it. From my viewpoint, I would love for it to be real. I'm not one of those that comes in skeptically, but because I haven't devoted myself to studying the arguments back and forth, it remains one of these very mysterious, interesting things to me, and I'm absolutely planning to get up to the Museum of the Bible to see this interactive exhibit, and it's a rare opportunity.

So, friends, through July in D.C., a very rare opportunity to get not close to the physical item, which can't be moved, but as close as you can to something just like it. And Russ, you've done documentaries, participated in History Channel and Discovery Channel and things like this, so you've heard some of the questions. But one of the most fundamental questions that comes up is, look, John's Gospel tells us there were two different cloths. There was a cloth around Jesus' head and a cloth around his body. This is just one cloth, so it's obviously not legitimate.

How do you answer that? Well, yes, there was the linen shroud, and then there was the napkin that was about his head, and the napkin is referred to, we believe it is called, it is the Sudarium of Oviedo, which is in Oviedo, Spain, where it's been since about 614. And this is about the size of a small bath towel, and this was a cloth that was wrapped around his face after Jesus died, but before being removed from the cross. It would have been a tradition to cover the face of the dead, and you can imagine Jesus was, after he gave up his spirit, looked pretty horrible with blood coming down everywhere from the crown of thorns, and just the pleural fluid coming out of his mouth and his nose from the ordeal of crucifixion. The lungs fill up with pleural fluid, and so they covered his face, and this cloth remained on his face until they got him to the side of the tomb, and then they would have placed him on this long linen shroud. That napkin would then have been removed, rolled up, placed next to the body, and then the balance of the shawl wrapped over him lengthwise. That napkin would not have remained on his face because it was just covered with blood and pleural fluid, and the only cloth that would have remained on his face if it was in existence would have been the Jewish tallit, his prayer cloth, but that was probably gambled away by the Romans, remember? The Scripture says they cast lots for his clothing.

And everything is consistent with the shroud having wrapped a man who died by violent death, where there was no washing of the body, no removal of the clothes, but in this case Jesus was naked anyways, and it would have just been wrapped in a single linen shroud called a sovève, and it seems to be consistent with that. So there's an explanation for John's Gospel, and in the other three Gospels... Well, Teroy, stay right there, and we'll come back on the other side of the break with our guests Myra Adams and Russ Breault talking about the Shroud of Turin. Stay right here. It's the Line of Fire with your host, Dr. Michael Brown. Get on the Line of Fire by calling 866-34-TRUTH.

Here again is Dr. Michael Brown. Thanks, friends, for joining us on the Line of Fire. I've asked my guests, Myra Adams and Russ Breault, to stay on just a little bit longer for us.

And Russ, I appreciate the thoroughness of your answers. We talk about Shroud of Turin, the site that Myra co-founded, signfromgod.org. Not dot com, but dot org. By the way, Myra, I get the same thing when I'm doing interviews.

We are AskDrBrown.org, and people often get it as dot com, so we want to give out the right site there. Myra, what about the objection that there's really not a lot of talk about this until maybe around the 13th century, and this is a time when the church was looking for relics and people were just interested in that kind of thing. How do you respond to that? Well, that is really all based on carbon dating that took place in 1988, that has been thoroughly debunked for so many different reasons. They never even released the raw data until 2017, after the first report came out in 1988. So it's really all based on that, because they dated the shroud to the late 1200s, early 1300s. So that's how that all came about. But in fact, it all points back to the mysteries that cannot be explained. What I talked about earlier was the greatest photographic mystery. You think about it, photography didn't come around until the 1800s sometime. So the fact that this cloth had within it photographic evidence that didn't come out until 1898. How could a Middle Ages artist even think about something like that?

The concept of photography was just not even, you know, ever on his radar or her radar. There's just no way it makes any sense that somebody could think that this was in fact a relic from the 1300s. Because the mysteries, another one of the mysteries that was developed in the 1970s, was 3D distance information. So basically, you have a 2D cloth, but you have 3D information on it.

It's like a mapping that actually, there's NASA scientists that developed it, that mapped the moon, they came up with this way to map surfaces with 3D, that the 3D actually lived within the surface. So you have these mysteries that the dating from the 1300s, 1200s just does not make any sense. But it's an easy way to just dismiss it. Because Michael, you know, as well as I do, that the concept of an artifact that proves that Jesus Christ was crucified and resurrected just freaks people out.

Yeah, for obvious, many obvious reasons. So let me pivot back to you, Russ. What about the church history argument that some have raised and I was pointing to, that if this was such an amazing thing and actually people were in possession of the burial shroud of the Lord, that certainly there would have been constant talk about this. You'd hear it from the second century on. You'd be able to trace it through church history. It's here, it's here. Whereas it seems to pop up in church history much later, like the 13th century.

So Russ, how do you respond to that? Well the presentation I did at the Museum of the Bible dealt with just that. We have about 15 historical references that take the shout all the way back to the 3rd century. You know, such as in the 4th century, there is Pope Sylvester writing by papal decree in 325 said that the mass, or the communion meal, must be celebrated on a linen cloth as if it were the clean shroud of Christ. And then in the 5th century, the very next century, Bishop Theodore of Antioch, he developed a catechism and said that this linen cloth needs to be brought down, placed over the altar, and that the two deacons represent the figure on the linen cloth at the burial. And then from the 6th century, you have the Mozarabic Rite of Holy Week, this is liturgy that is brought to Spain in the 6th century, and it translates John chapter 20 verse 5 and says this, Peter ran with John to the tomb and saw the recent imprint of the dead and risen man on the linen.

I mean, I can't get any clearer than that. And so there are numerous references to a cloth with an image on it, a blood-stained image on it, a full-body image going all the way back to the 3rd century. And so the issue with the shroud is that, you see, it was in Edessa for a while and then it was taken to Constantinople in 944, and then it was stolen during the 4th Crusades in 1204. Well, we know for a fact now that the shroud was in Constantinople in 1204 and stolen by the French during the 4th Crusades. We can actually prove it without any shadow of a doubt.

And so what does that do? You see, the alleged carbon date is 1260 to 1390. Well, 1204 is already older than the oldest carbon date of 1260 and it didn't just get there, it had been there since 944. So clearly the carbon date is wrong for whatever reason. And I mean, I have a good hunch as to what went wrong is because they cut one sample from the outside corner edge exactly where it had been held and handled over 275 times from 1418 until 1694. It had been held up manually by people standing on a platform, holding it up physically at that corner.

So if you were looking for the worst possible sample location, yeah, well, you've hit from one of the two outside corners, which is exactly where it had been held and handled most of the time. And maybe it may have been subjected to some kind of a medieval reweave or some kind of a repair, which is what chemist Ray Rogers published in 2005. Got it. So this, again, friends, my guests have a ton of information.

I encourage you to look into it. If you're wondering, could it be true if, as Myra said at the beginning, it could be a further confirmation? We believe without seeing, but if God left this, then praise God for it. Let's be edified by it. Hey, let me give you each 30 seconds.

First Myra, then Russ, as we're running out of time. What's your take on the exhibit at the Museum of the Bible? Obviously, Myra, this is really close to you with you working to get this done, but really quickly, how do you feel about what they did? I think the exhibit is a good jumping off point to pursue further study about the mysteries of the shroud. The museum, being the museum, takes no stand on its authenticity. So you have to go in with an open mind because the museum really is just telling you what they know, and they do not want to color your opinion one way or the other. So go at it with that, you know, visit it with that in mind. But one thing that is truly astounding is they have a replica that was made on an ancient loom, and it was grown from the same kind of flax seed that was supposedly, the shroud, the image of the man was imprinted on. So they do have that replica, so you can sit in front of that replica and just ponder what it looks like. And of course, that is the way it really looks.

The best way to see the shroud, of course, is to see the photographic negative, which is the black and white, where you can really make out the marks. But still, that replica they have is something to contemplate and just study more. If it gets you more interested, then go to the exhibit and then do more research, because there is just so much more to know about the shroud. And the more you know, the more you want to know.

All right, Russ, over to you. How do you feel about the exhibit? I think the exhibit is fabulous. It's beautiful.

They have a lot of interactive displays that I think will capture people's minds, especially young people. And the shroud speaks for itself. I agree with Myra.

They obviously have to be objective about it. But again, I think as I've just stated clearly, something that you're really not going to get from the museum, but the shroud clearly has a history that predates the 14th century. And so with that in mind, I think it's a marvelous exhibit.

All right, awesome. So friends, Museum of the Bible, the Shroud of Turin, interactive, high-tech exhibit through the end of July with a facsimile of the shroud there as well. And Myra, Russ, thanks so much for joining us. And to find out more, go to signfromgod.org. Signfromgod.org.

Thanks again for joining us. So friends, again, I've never studied this in depth. I've never looked at this in depth. There are tons of things I haven't studied in depth. This is one of them. But I've been interacting with Myra for a couple years now as we connected as Jewish believers through some of our political writing and things like that.

And she's always been enthusiastic about this. So with this coming to Museum of the Bible, I thought, well, let's really address it. Has God left something as a further proof of the resurrection of His Son, or is this just some church relic and forgery that no one can explain? And for those who are skeptical, which is fine. You want to study and look at the evidence, and our faith is not based on the shroud but on the Word of God and the experience of the risen Savior. But I want to encourage you, if you question it, to try to come up with answers to take Myra's first challenge. How do you explain what happened?

How do you explain the existence of the image? Hey, quick reminder for you. Visit vitaminmission.com with our sponsor, Dr. Mark Stengler. Check out the awesome health supplements that he has there that can help you in so many different ways. Use the Dr. Brown code. You'll get a special discount when you do. And then in turn, a donation will be made to our ministry to help us get on more radio stations and help and touch more people. Tomorrow, Thoroughly Jewish Thursday, we're going to expose some countermissionary misinformation right here.