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Shane Idleman (A Crisis of Leadership in the Pulpits)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd
The Truth Network Radio
December 17, 2021 4:00 am

Shane Idleman (A Crisis of Leadership in the Pulpits)

Janet Mefferd Today / Janet Mefferd

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December 17, 2021 4:00 am

As our godless culture falls further away from the living God and the truth of His inerrant Word, is there a crisis of leadership in the pulpits of America? And given where our nation is headed, what does it mean to speak His Word faithfully? We'll tackle that and more with Shane Idleman, founder and lead pastor of Westside Christian Fellowship, in Lancaster and Leona Valley, California. Join us for Friday's JANET MEFFERD TODAY.

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This archive broadcast of Janet Mefford today is brought to you in part by American underdog from Lions gate in the team that brought you. I can only imagine based on the true story of championship winning quarterback Kurt Warner American underdog. Rated PG parental guidance suggested in theaters everywhere. Christmas Day is Janet River. Today, our confidence is in Christ alone is the word of God says that soil is now faithful pastor. The apostle Paul described himself and Titus one as a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to further the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness no further on in that chapter. Under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, Paul outlines in detail the character that every pastor has to have among other characteristics, he must be blameless and faithful to his wife not overbearing, not quick-tempered, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined, and he must hold firmly to the trustworthy message, as it has been taught so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it now, compare those biblical qualifications with the lives of America's pastors today are they overwhelmingly blameless, holy, and disciplined, encouraging others by sound doctrine refuting those who oppose it and all the other characteristics that I've mentioned while yes, certainly there are many faithful men, who meet the tightest one description, but we must also reckon with the reality that is my next guest says there seems to be a crisis of leadership in the pulpits of America. Why is that what kind of leadership do we need from our pastors and what will turn the crisis around, especially at a time when our nation is sinking into sin and godlessness were in a diamond to all of this today was Shane item and founder and lead pastor of Westside Christian Fellowship in California and founder of the great Westside Christian Fellowship radio network WC F and he is launching a new podcast as well call pastors unplugged lots going on in Shane's life and Shane were just so glad you could take some time to be with us today. How are you rated your recruit work talk about very important topic in your program you do that will fill the pleasure bigger is always, thank you, St., what do you think there's a crisis of leadership in the pulpits of America what is going on that leads you to really be concerned about that. How much time do we help weave in our set will the short answer is what it coming out and we can list how many ministries have fallen recently with abusive leadership or moral failings or things like that with Ellis and those teetering on the brink of moral failing, as well, but is out there, knowledge but it has to really do with the relationship with the Lord my myself included, that that deep intimate abiding relationship with God. I remember reading a book about 20 years ago they interviewed like 280 talk Christian leaders who fill and at the top of that list. Was there intimacy with God was was no longer because they were too busy to busy a lot of them said it would never happen to me so pride gets in their and that 80% of them fell 80% fill the Council goes in the opposite sex. So I think it's wisdom with boundaries, but ultimately that relationship with God. The closer we draw to him through prayer and in his word and application of his word desire to be focused spirit. The outflowing nobody can be a good pastor on their own destroyed the outflowing work of the Holy Spirit in their heart was interesting because I've heard a lot of discussions over the years about the qualifications for the ministry that are outlined in Titus one and also first Timothy chapter 3 and the comment by a lot of people that in the age where we have a lot of men who will just set up a ministry or found a church. Nothing wrong with that but they say how much do a lot of these churches really pay attention to the biblical qualifications of certain men. Now obviously there are a lot of great men in the pulpits today, but speak to that problem.

Shame because that does strike me as part of the problem.

At least, that if were not following the biblical qualifications for pastors and were just kind of in a seen this situation in which men will just take the pulpit and we just have to follow along without holding them accountable to God's word.

How much of that becomes a problem. About 10 years ago, but I there was an order and are built to plant churches. We sometimes play out without really having qualified people to leave them and we saw this in the next 29 move out of of course Mark Driscoll planning tundra, churches, and even thought about this deal they can plant your drift plant is metered and that drive which of the great drive we needed but the really up to look at all these people qualified according to the everything you just laid out there. Are they qualified to lead the church in the lip and then let God bless that leadership what God bless the church I think sometimes he put the cart before the horse. A number one in the number two. A lot of people, even churches, good looking… Call a pastor with certain masters degree rather than fighting out of the have a degree from the master no so course education is important, they need to know whether talking about the need to know deep theological issues but ultimately it's not about notoriety or charisma or status recognition. Their degrees.

It's about helping spent a lot of time with God.

Are they qualified everything you just said God qualifying them to pastor to leave so there's a lot more to the crest of it crutch of Victorian dilemma might be the reason behind, I think, is the wanting to plant so many churches and they forget about the character has to support the church planting movement right so when we talk about the modern age we can avoid. I think discussing the problem of the celebrity pastor and I know that you have written about this before and it's one thing they have been pastors. Many pastors throughout history who have become very well known because they were out preaching the gospel in many people were one to the Lord and that's a wonderful thing but in the age of the Internet it can go off the rails. His you know Shane, we seen a lot of these guys all into the cult of celebrity and a lot of Christians get caught up in the idea that my pastor is a celebrity. Mark Driscoll is a perfect example of all that. How do you see this whole problem of celebrity versus character impacting the way our churches are not having an impact on the culture, the way they ought to be why we started pastors unplugged a new podcast for pastors for that very reason. And it goes back to what we talked about earlier that intimacy with God and from that relationship. The brokenness and humility. However, God like you said God will grow ministry, but we are the gauge of success is what we have to look at. We don't measure success by numbers we measure them by faithfulness said that if God brings the numbers to the faithful preaching of his word to the inerrancy of Scripture and to the humility in the brokenness of the pastor them. That's wonderful, but a lot of you guys have got a thousand likes on this poster you a million people watch my sermon. I must be doing things right, not necessarily the world is going to love the way you do church if you're not controversial. If you're not convicting them.

And so what we see is this person popular so they must be hearing from God, and that absolutely not the case. However, knowing Larry got John MacArthur's church and of the other ones that are solid in we Measured on that a lot of people are against the large churches well know, at home, church, movement only, no make biblical churches right thing was that not at all well. It's funny because what I found in a course on churches or biblical model. There's a lot of pride in the home churches.

A lot of of legalism a lot of pride or doing things the right way were the only way to do church so you see it across the board to the Liberty Bell. The Internet have loaded it and we rate must be popular you mean you look at it for pastors just on fire for God. You'll thousand views on YouTube versus Steve Wernick whoever with a million views. This person must be popular this mean this person popular.

They must be. They must be in tune with God.

They must be really hearing from you.this must be God's true spokesman and that's actually not the case about great things right right it's the faithfulness as you said before, and it's very interesting you point out something really significant. I think Shane when you're pointing out that on the one hand, if you critique the large churches for having oftentimes men who are too prideful or don't spend enough time with the Lord and really had that intimacy with him that they can then convey from the pulpit. People who then go to the other extreme and say what I can to be like them, were the faithful ones were in the small churches sin and pride are a problem across the board, but I want to get into more on this question of what kind of leadership we really need from America's pulpits right now were going to take a very short break and will be van with seen title IX from Westside Christian Fellowship will be right back from lines right you.

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All gifts are tax-deductible to donate, dial 855402, baby. That's 855-402-2229 855-402-2229 where there's a banner to you're listening to Janet Mefford today and now here's Joe come back. It's a very important question. Do we have a crisis of leadership in the pulpits of America you go back in history and you look for example at the black robe regiment and the incredible impact that those Revolutionary war era pastors had on this nation and then you look at pastors today and it may be easy to get discouraged where the great men of God where these pastors who will unashamedly preach Jesus Christ and him crucified.

And where is the revival that so many of us have been praying for for years while she not only is with us. Mannerly pastor Westside Christian Fellowship and writes about this in this whole idea of a crisis of leadership.

Shane, I want to get your take on what kind of leadership is lacking.

What should pastors be exhibiting in terms of their leadership right now that, in large measure is not there, across the board in week you're out and run the Internet whatever there is a huge deficit and or whatever you want to call a lack of boldness and I don't mean arrogant. I don't mean loud and mean. I mean boldness to confront the woke culture confront the CRT of boldness to confront things that are directly opposing the word of God just seems to be about lack of whatever conversation they don't want to upset people.

They want to be motivational figures and that really doesn't change the heart you mentioned revival and I love studying revivals and book on revivals and always start you know, of course, with prayer meetings, but also there is a boldness of the pastor or the preacher.

There's a return to the fear of God. The inerrancy of Scripture that the blood of Christ, in the judgment of brothers.

A there's a boldness in the fear of turning back people back from broad Road structure back to pride is a call to repentance and so lacking, but we want we want to become popular and so powerful and were rating you know John Piper wrote a great book. You know, brothers, we are not egos or something along that line many years ago and that's really addressing a lot of what is happening… CEO motivational speaker here not to offend were not here to upset, but again I think that goes back to that time.

There is a lack of time spending with God, and it can you imagine if you're up early and got a want to be empty. This morning I repented my pride show me through your work what you want me to preach, or the unadulterated word the totality of whatever it is Lord help me and empower me man you imagine that's what we need we need and you're right there is a lack of boldness and it seems to me also lack of courage isn't that what really is underpinning a lack of boldness if you don't have the courage of biblical conviction, then why would you open your mouth with any boldness seems and starts together yet they go get it starts in the human heart. So what's going on. Well, what you divide out of the Barna research in front of me but you know how many churches like 72% no do not really believe in the inherent view of Scripture.

So what.

So let's say for the sake of number split that leave the 6000 8000, 10,000 solid churches you adhere to Scripture from that.

How many of those pastors you'll have their own agenda are just in it for the superstar mentality. Everything we just talked about like followers, wanting to be like one of your motivational speaker and you take from that number. How many are truly spending time with God. Intimacy with him filled the spirit because like a W-2 is the pastor's all week. There will be with a step to the pulpits know they have to turn off the Netflix and the social meeting time in God's word and prayer and felt the unit from the reservoir of spending time with got that desperation comes boldness and the courage and the filling of the Holy Spirit about or lacking, but it's hard. It takes humility. That's why when you asked me to talk about this topic and obviously I had to approach it with humility go through my doctors. You know I've mastered it. I'm not perfect on the work in progress. But if we recognize what we are. We are lost without you work were desperate to hear from you. We need to be broken. We need to be hobbled over pride never arrogant and from the wellspring of living water. You preach your service, you prepare your sermons and naturally few lives radically change your right about that and you don't have to be a perfect pastor in order to point out the problem change.

I know that your you're also including yourself when you're talking about what we need to be or what pastors need to be were also in this age and I'd love to get your take on this.

Of late, we have had more problems with plagiarism and Litton, the president of the Southern Baptist convention who has not repented fully and resigned as president of the SBC which I did in my mind is unconscionable and a whole lot of people who protect them. Now we find out when that scandal broke that there are lots and lots and lots of men out there who don't even write their own sermons there. Getting them written for them. They are enemies turn into a racket. You have a lot of people in Christian publishing who are writing their own books. This is been a problem for a while and I think when you talk about the pastor needing to be filled himself and have that reservoir of fellowship, deep fellowship with the Lord himself in order to minister effectively to his people. How do we get that back in an age where people just want to do the all these shortcuts and and cut corners on character in order to be big deals because this is a crisis in my mind.

When all the exposed wake people up, I would have to step down to expose what COBIT really exposed the true church of Jesus Christ from those who are just wanting to enjoy all this exposure taking place and what happened you can get lazy.

There's no accountability. A lot. Only the pastors are led by a plurality of elders we have in our church where other make him speak into your life.

You're not the CEO. Everything doesn't center around you. You're not the final shot caller yet to submit to the plurality of elders, hopefully for good group of people course, but a lot of the people you're talking are kind of above that and they're kind of you know the boss so to speak, and that can foster a lot of laziness you can become busy, but I've never understood buying or paying for or using a different sermon because of a true sermon comes from the prayer closet when you're in God's Word and God's depositing, thus saith the Lord. He's putting into your heart what to say. It's based on your personality, your upbringing, your experience, how God is shaped to your past and sermon is really be Martin Lloyd Jones said preaching his theology coming from a man who was on fire, and so this this this preaching yourself in the sermon who you are what you learn what God works as a practical application of it so to go and use someone else's material. You know it it's very I think you lose the power.

The anointing of the Holy Spirit. You lose the freshness. It just becomes going to the motion.

Plagiarism is something else I I've tried over the years of the quote someone to make sure you note that somewhere so it's not forgotten. I have figured things like, you know, forgot eight years ago that I pulled it for me to be toasters book and so you have no assent here.

There's enough to really be methodical about it have to be God honoring and and just understanding that when you quote people you actually at a higher level respect. You don't have to say like you thought of this. You came up with the expected price exactly your own education.

Look what I do I like" people and show my lack of experience, but their lack of experience in the certain areas so laziness in the assuming these people are plagiarized have got away with the I think it's you know that were God's warning in God's warning warning finally coming up close you so it's it's a character with the crisis of character and that's why your program. I know you and the topic is so important because I'm hoping this foster some desperation and pastors need to some repented is a lot of pastors like Christian leaders who listen to this program and there has to be a convicting cutting of the heart to say, this is not right. I need to get back in the prayer closet. I need to schedule my life around God instead of scheduling everything else and then hopefully he fits in Maryland that conviction that transparency do that repentance there then open again for a mighty moving of the Holy Spirit in their lives and in the hearts and in their sermon you mentioned Martin Lloyd Jones is one of my all-time favorites. Name a lot of my all-time favorites but Lloyd Jones is is just head and shoulders above so many people and he never went to seminary. He was a medical doctor and if you read his sermons and you read his box.

You know when you go away from those books that he spent time with the Lord.

He wasn't just phoning it in. And boy do we need more of that is what is really missing Shane and I wonder how you are able to keep that fresh for yourself, to spend time with the Lord to be poured out before him to be humble before him to be always in a position of confession and repentance before him and going to the word of God and ministering to your congregation because obviously you a lot of demands on your time. How do you do it will.

Boy what you heard the word spiritual talk to them on your program and therefore a very good reason because you discipline my body.

I have to you have to tell the flesh what to do, not the other way around. So about 20 years ago I got in the habit of getting up early and what that means is, sometimes I don't do things in the evening late.

39 events are always in someone's house are always going out always on the town. You know, so there's that there's a there's a freshness to getting up in the morning about 334 in the morning so I have the first three hours to just read God's word to work on sermons to put on worship and find myself on the floor just got horny in my heart. Praying for a nation praying for revival, so getting the heart right first thing in the morning for me.

I mean, I'm a morning person might work better for other people. In the evening and also Lord keep me humble. Keep me broken, teachable, and going in the meetings wanting to learn and be taught not always having the. The answer, not in the Lord brings pride in the check and allowing our elders begin to my life. After seeing certain things and so is the process of of that desperation for more of God in thing broken staying home posting pliable and usable and but you you have to turn off the social media put on the things of God go to bed every night reading the balance on prayer wake up hungry yes yes absolutely got the latest Netflix series on in which most browsers do in there until 11 o'clock and they're just not take care of the virtual hell I wake up in the there's no spiritual hunger working have to take a bracing almond with testing this archives broadcast of Janet Mefford today is brought to you in part by American underdog from Lions gate and the team that brought you.

I can only imagine based on the true story of championship winning quarterback Kurt Warner American underdog. Rated PG parental guidance suggested in theaters everywhere Christmas Day day for today and here's your host Joe Mefford.

Well, it seems simple. If you're not a pastor you're just a layman in the pew.

You expect your pastor to be spending time with the Lord and to be having that deep, intimate fellowship and to be able to go to the word of God and use all of his learning nest to exegete the passage in and bring a word from the Lord to you when you come to church on Sunday or Bible study on Wednesday or whenever you happen to be at church, but it is really unfortunate that we have to acknowledge the crisis of leadership in America's pulpits were talking it over with Shane Heineman who is founder and lead pastor of Westside Christian Fellowship Shane is his website and he's also launching a new podcast call pastors unplugged things I wanted to ask you about Shane is something that you have addressed on speaking God's word faithfully and you talked about Jeremiah chapter 26.

In this regard. Talk about that.

If you would what is it mean for a pastor to speak the word of God faithfully recorded in order really perfect title for you know you Jeremiah 2326.

So much their speaking got word faithfully has a few different dimensions. Obviously, what is God's word and what you got all the swimming by the totality of his word. Speaking his word faithfully faithfully means all of it, meaning the pleasant things but also the unpleasant things. It means that the good things, but also the hard thing to me about heaven, but also talk to people about hell's grace and mercy but also judgment and holiness so if the person and the false prophets you know you heard you talk about this before, is they actually were false prophets because they false they falsely said what God's heart was another words peace peace. There's no. You're actually encouraging people in their sin. So speaking God's word faithfully is to be ready in analyses and of course to be and encourage her build her up people but also faithfully means to shoot you straight with the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the word of God change your heart. I don't care about people's opinions or opinion polls are not here to be popular. I'm here to. Here's what God's word is and what is highly esteemed among men of the abomination in the sight of God, so that word faithfully is in analyses and it to talk about the difficult things and even the things that are difficult to build it to build or rightly divide the word of truth, and that was you know there's a lot of sign snow and chewed false prophets of the New Testament yields sensuality and develop their own game, but throughout the Old Testament.

The primary reason a person is called a false prophet is because they did not warn people did not call them to repentance and they themselves were apostates there were encouraging some is caught in sin in your encouraging that, hey, no problem like with the LGBT Q and all that all were doing is encouraging them and allowing them to continue in simple and sinful lifestyle that is actually a mark of a false prophet throughout all of the Old Testament right that's a great point. I think there also is the problem Shane and I know you're familiar with this. Not wanting to make your congregation mad at you, and I'm sure that that's a difficult thing because you don't want your congregation to be coming up after your sermon and yelling at you.

Nobody wants that. But at the same time. If you're faithfully preaching the whole counsel of God is you just talked about preaching the word in season and out of season is the Bible tells you. Do you have a responsibility. Sometimes people phrase it as I am preaching to an audience of one, which is your responsibility is to make the Lord happy with your sermon not to make the people necessarily happy but how do you manage the critiques that sometimes will calm for more pastors than others. Maybe when you do preach the hard truths of Scripture which God has commanded you to preach and not too hard because when it comes from the heart truth must be underscored with brokenness and humility and what the people you love them you're not angry and arrogant, but your your fellow sojourner your your you're not preaching at them you preaching to them to to a group of people to all of us, but it was said of George Whitfield and his sermons are pretty hard.

I have journals. Why are people so receptive because it was said that he often can get through sermon without tears, and so if you're if it is not arrogance in telling people off, but it's more about coming from a loving, broken, gentle heart for the people can receive that very well. They can tell, especially God's anointing is on versus anger and arrogant that I've been guilty that I preached in anger before. That's one thing that truly changed my ministry over the last decade is this guy continue to break me in and humbled me in and then to preach with passion, but also love you have to equally balance the truth and love. Jesus was full of grace and truth. And so it is really thing will break my heart. My heart might live our pretender fruit for the things that break your heart, but also not Callaway. What is happening. So all these political hot buttons and pastor should be political is all is all really really a façade to hide behind.

It shows her cowardly Paul. God's word kids all political buttons from reporters who should lead our country to the present United States Supreme Court to the laws of the land to gay marriage to seek critical race theory and all the things there are a that's not the pastor's job. It really is you know you just mentioned that the black rogue reverent regiment they use to be used to always preach on political hot button course because politics means governing or leading a group of people tell me that God's word doesn't have anything to say about governing or leaving actually have a lot to say about it so I get it all comes back to not spending time in God's word not being broken by him not being filled with the spirit and the thing is, that's where the myth was coming from you.

That word is is I want a guy I got it. I gotta believe the narratives of the far left. I've got to believe this false narrative in the Americas racist all the things in becoming woke means very good step on anybody's toes except the toes of Christian anyone else's code politically correct and that that's a biblically correct, now that's the skin. Though there have been a whole lot of hucksters. That's what I like to call them who have risen to prominence in evangelical circles in the last decade who scream and yell about the gospel should be above politics and there is far left as it gets. Some of them and they're fine with politics as long as your not conservative and you don't vote for the GOP as long as your nuanced hands and you're doing all the things that the leftist culture want you to do then then you're really being biblical. I'm getting tired of that. Shane and I think the bloom is off the rose for a lot of Christians who really are.

If we want to coin a term woke to what's been done to them inside the church by people who say were against politics unless it's my politics and I more on the left as you people are an embarrassment you Christian conservatives are just an embarrassment. I just over at I don't know how you feel about it but I really know over it like me speaking about politics like my politics. Bingo. But if you line up with their way of thinking they're fine with it now. The gospel is the primary focus of course when the gospel changes my heart. Now I have a desire because the gospel because of the gospel, I haven't.

I have a problem with shedding of innocent children of the blood problem with sex trafficking and our borders have a problem with presidents who disregard God's word and because of the gospel.

I have a passion for all the things that are political but the biblical sure are you people suggesting that we remain silent about everything was controversial just because of my people political nuanced chain when everything is nuanced and they can pick the subject you're talking about, that they don't like and say you need to tone it down, because we need more nuance I'm over that to I'm pretty much over everything in that regard, it's because it's not being faithful to the Bible. You're absolutely right.

The gospel does come first. The bond of the gospel has to come first and I get weary of hearing Jesus.

Is it a Democrat or Republican, is if none of us knew that we all know that that's not news to any of us but the point is that when you're having some of the loudest voices of a critique coming from inside the church were inside certain Christian ministries or entities or denominations.

It really becomes discouraging because you have to jettison this idea that everybody who is part of a church and calls himself a Christian is going to be faithful to Scripture and we know very very well Shane that that's not necessarily the case, and I want to get into more on this.

We do need to Pa's for yet another very very quick break but will come back with Shane Heideman from Westside Christian Fellowship on this important subject of the crisis of leadership in the pulpits of America for listening to Janet Mefford today. I disses Janet Mefford for pre-born Candace talks about finding out she was pregnant. Thankfully, an ultrasound provided by pre-born allowed her to hear her baby's heartbeat sonogram sealed the deal for me me me was like this tiny little spectrum of hope.

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All gifts are tax-deductible to donate, call 855402 baby 855402 baby or there's a banner to this is Janet Mefford for Bible league international. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. These words written early in John's Gospel remind us in this Advent season that God sent his son to be our Lord and Savior that many Christians in Asia and Africa, Latin America and the Middle East have never read those words or the Christmas story in Luke two why because they have no access to the Bible. So in this season of giving. Please join by the league in sending God's word to Bible as believers around the world for only five dollars or $50 for 10 Bibles $500 for 100 call 801 ESW ORD. That's 800 yes word or there's a Bible league banner and Janet seen people being changed to foreign yes somebody's in this gift you can give somebody that's 800 YESW LRD or there's a banner to click Janet you're listening to Janet Mefford today though. You can check out more Shane entitlements content a chain he is founder and lead pastor Westside Christian Fellowship and you can also check out WC F, along with his new podcast pastors unplugged Shane were talking about this crisis of leadership in the pulpits of America that I know is of concern to many, many Christians, one of the things that I want to touch on is when pastors are leading in the way that the Lord would have them lead it obviously doesn't just affect their congregations or their denominations is also effects the nation.

What would you like to see pastors dealing in order to take on a more proper leadership role you look at the statistics, for example, in the most admired professions and it used to be clergy was right at the top of the list and clergy keep sinking on that last as far as the highly regarded professions. If you want to call it that, in America, which is a tragedy but what we need to see from pastors in terms of leadership that would affect our nation on so many of these issues that you've mentioned well number one I think a lot of it can become wrongly judge mental what I mean by that is we all think it should be doing what I'm doing wired the more vocal you got John McCarthy, John Piper, you will not very well not too political per se, but Tony Perkins or Jackie a friend of mine and Rob McCoy and you got these other people being very vocal in we gotta do what God called us to do, and people might not share your same passion for politics or vice versa before faithful to what God is called to do ballots where you change but also I believe the covert along with the presidential debacle here in January that help in the it's really breaking the church a people, have you got either wake up and pick sides and so I know a lot of pastors are really looking at what is really going on in their own spiritual health and so it's going to have to come from some type of broken some type of repentance.

Some type of personal inventory in their own heart so that you set a pastor on fire for the congregation on fire and that will go into the community out into the state and out into our nation so truly getting back to that that point of being desperation desperate broken and humbleness were lacking.

So that was hard you know I mean I can't tell here's what they need to do your seven steps to financial customer success notes. Really they need to be broken and that from that fund that broke, renewed fellowship with God.

I believe yet you don't want the things that also comes to mind is the fact that Jesus was very clear in the word of God is very clear that the pastor is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry God has given to all of us as his disciples did the spiritual gifts to used to edify and build up the body of Christ and to make a difference and you think of all the times that the Lord, you know St. Peter feed my sheep.

Do you love me feed my sheep you know and you see in Scripture the you know the admonition to shepherd the flock of God that is your charge so much emphasis is placed in the New Testament on the pastor's responsibility to feed the sheep and care for the sheep and shepherd. The sheep so they can do the work of ministry.

What are some of your thoughts about a pastor equipping the saints to make a debt because obviously the pastor alone can't shake a nation it's going to take every Christian that being faithful to the Lord. That's gonna have an impact on a nation that really these days seems to be increasingly under judgment. What are your thoughts along those lines. In my mind, and fully went to the book of where were not called to wait on tables were called to minister to people but also spent time in the word of God in prayer and then from that that inflowing of God's word. The Holy Spirit prayer complete outflowing of equipping the saints so yes I think a lot of prep houses need to prioritize their whole life. We are too busy and if you're too busy to put God first. You're too busy so they gotta make some adjustments. How can I properly first care for my own spiritual health. How can I can I get a get desperate for God and powerful sermons in all my prayer meeting times of revival, renewal, restoration, how can I get that then how can I get it out to the people because I will be the work of the Holy Spirit really once they submit to what God wants to do the gotta begin the work in the hearts of individuals within the congregation will that's good and and talking about revival, which I know we've discussed before that really is so heavy on my heart Lord bring us another revival I've never seen a true widespread revival in my lifetime. I know you go back to the Jesus movement in Southern California and many Christians say that was the last time we really saw a true revival. I think all of us along for another revival, which is a work of the spirit and that's clearly something we need to pray for, but do you think will see one Shane.

I know we don't know for sure.

Anything we don't know what the Lord his weld for this country, or the state of the church, whether or not he will awaken us and revive us again but where do we begin in that regard. To pray for that because when you look at the history of revivals that always seem to have started with prayer and and not the heart of God being something that all of us as Christians want to bring down Lord, we know you want people saved in disciples give us that same passion and that same missionary spirit that you had, you know, even in the book of Jonah. What about that whole issue of revival, when you website you probably doesn't write an article written on revival why revival is our only hope and that's a hard one because I don't think God's promises and give us the desire of the things without that coming to fruition. What I mean by that is, you look at, you know, if I read Jonathan Edwards, even his journal, Wesley Whitfield. They talk about the decadence of society. Religion was nowhere to be found in the streets drunk and this was abounding prostitution. America's darkest hour was here.

These are the words and so often in the darkness, the darker it is, the greater the need for revival in this would covert with the election results with all the things that people are counting on.

I believe the God is breaking and breaking and breaking so we can pray like the prophets all got what you read in the heavens again. Isaiah let rend the heavens and come down like he used to come down Lord and our responsibility though is not to bring the rain but where the soil, the soil of our hearts.

And I believe that God can rent, rend the heavens and come down again. I believe that, of course, we don't know for certain, but I believe because of the desire of so many people in the decadence of society and the God not giving up on us and the remnant of the church and the desire for prayer meeting, we are actually in October we had services every night a week for two weeks at 6 PM and the altar was full to three hour services. We have a major revival in our bondage. But we need out on a big larger scale for the topic. So yes I met you very because we don't look good. You know, we don't just quit and give up. God encourages us to press and seek and it really does take a lot of this what's going on is unexplainable from the crime to the sexual perversion to the decadence of the sex trafficking to the abortion people act excited about killing babies. It breaks your heart and so but ruled out broken if the guy keeps breaking breaking that eventually my hope is that he would rend the heavens, but it doesn't mean here's where I think we make the mistake doesn't mean utopia doesn't mean America the 1950s, there's going to be to be one hellish fight because were God is moving so say so I thinking see tremendous work of the spirit. But here comes Kleinman and just an interest on school shootings in Bucknell. God's working in so I don't think you utopia back.

People get frustrated without. I think the kingdoms are colliding, the kingdom of darkness is time is gearing up and coming closer and closer to the final day of judgment. So I think there is great hope and great revival great restoration but it doesn't mean they might not pack the Supreme Court doesn't mean we might not get our person in office, and I mean it doesn't mean that kind of about China and Russia mean they are very bold right now we've got a person in office who is not going to command that respected so I don't what the future holds, but they do we know who holds the future. If you think pockets of revival spreading.

I mean think about were in Los Angeles County in California and so are some other great churches and we are making a huge dent into our state and Larry Elder did not be the election for the governor of the recall and all of that and people are like so disappointed. I think God is showing us our hope is not going to be in a person or the political process or 2022 or 2024, although those things are finally important, but we gotta put Christ back on the throne and get God back in the place of our hearts and then and only then will we see, I believe that the wellspring of revival flowing through very well said Shane II think I don't remember the original source are talking about plagiarism. This is my original quote but I remember reading this great quote saying Christians should be at their best when the times are at their worst, and I really believe that, and I'm glad that you are out there, Shane, and holding forth Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, which is so vital in these days just like it's always been vital, but we don't know how soon the Lord will return. So thank you so much Shane Shane, thank you so much for being with us. God bless you have a great time you to God bless you.

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