Matt Slick Live

The following program is recorded content created by Mr. Matt Slick live.

My name is Matt Slick. So if you go to karm.org forward slash donate, C-A-R-M dot O-R-G forward slash donate. What we have going on is we have someone who matches our donations. So if you were to donate $100, then he just gets another $100, just matches it. And if you sign up for recurring, then whatever the total is for the next year. So if you do $10 a month for recurring, that's $120 next year, then he'll match $120 automatically. And if you up your already monthly donation, let's say you're doing $5, you up it to $10, then that $5 increase, it gets matched. And so that's it. It's real simple. And if you're a new listener, please understand I do not talk about finances on the show, hardly ever.

I just don't like doing it. But at the end of the year, we need it. And the reason is because, just like generically speaking, the beginning of the year is tough for us financially because we have insurance for the ministry that has to be paid. We do it on an annual basis.

Plus, we pay our missionaries at the beginning of the year also. So it kind of hits us, and we need that. So we'll just let you know about that. All right, that was that. Now, what else?

Oh, yes. And if you were to go to karm.org, we're still working it, where, let's see, I don't think we can do Matt Slick Live broadcast yet on it, but look at that. Look at all that stuff. Okay. So if you go to karm.org forward slash mattslicklive, one word.

Let's see, I'm going to do that right now. Let's see, karm.org, mattslicklive. What we have, it'll show you a page, and there's not much there. It's got my little logo thing, Matt Slick Live. And at the bottom, mattslicklive.com, which we're going to forward to this page.

And I was trying to do that on the net today, but they're having problems on the site that holds the domains. But at any rate, what we have on that site, Matt Slick Live page, is a link to the new YouTube channel. What we're going to be doing is putting all of the radio shows right there.

All the radio shows are going to be moved over to this channel, Matt Slick Live, so we can have that, probably produce a spreadsheet list so you can see all the shows and watch them too. Yeah, not a big deal, but hey, that's what we're doing. And that reminds me, I always need a lot of help. Not mental, but I do need some help. And if you have tech knowledge, you want to help out like developing things like this, like extracting all of the videos from one YouTube account and then putting them into Excel and putting what the basic stuff is about, which I already have most of that done anyway, downloading and uploading and all that kind of stuff. If you want to help out, things like that. We need help with that. That's grunt work, and I do it. But I want to start producing videos, and I'm going to be ordering some equipment here pretty quickly because we're going to be doing new stuff. And I've been researching for weeks and weeks, and I don't want to spend very much, but we have someone who's going to help out with that as well.

But if you want to help out and help support the video ministry that we're going to be working on, let me know. Also, if you know how to do, oh, what's it called? Hold on a sec. I've got to get the name of it. It's a new technology, a new thing, which is really cool.

And let's see, I'm opening up my phone. I have my notes right there, and it is how to do cinemagraphs. If you don't know what that is, then that tells me a lot. If you do know what it is, you say, wow, yeah, that's not too hard. And you can even show me how to do it on the web. I use Vegas and stuff.

And if you know of a better editing program, that's simpler and I can work with to build edit videos. See, we're really tackling this. We're really going to be tackling this. We're going to be going in and doing old articles and turning them into videos. We're going to make them nice with camera sliders, gimbal, effects, fade in and out. We're going to be doing close, far. I want to get a drone. And if you know about drones, let me know, because we want to get a drone for different camera angles that we're going to be working. The idea is to make this really good.

And I'll be working also on one minute seminary videos, literally one minute videos, that we're going to try and make quick and slick. So I need some help. Boy, I do, because this ministry is tough. I turned 65 this week. And that's sobering. When I look in the mirror, I think I look 55. But especially in the morning, I look like 85. You see yourself and not that good. And then I can tell that I'm getting uglier as I get older, because my wife stays further away from me till about noon, when the morning shadows aren't quite as oppressive.

And then she can get closer to me. So there's that. And I think that is about it.

I can't think of anything else. Isn't that good? Hey, 4openLives, why don't you give me a call? 877-207-2276 will be right back.

We haven't got a break yet, so just do this one time. All right, let's get to Anthony from Virginia. Anthony, welcome. You're on the air.

Hey, Matt. Yesterday, you were having a conversation with someone about God's sovereignty. And you said something that's very interesting.

And I wanted to kind of probe you on a little bit. Sure. You said God does not cause what he ordains. Can you please explain what you mean by that, clearly? Because I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that.

OK, so let me go through this slowly. Ordination means that God brings about whatever he desires, all right? Now, the bringing about of it can be at different levels. So I'm going to go over what's called causation here, the issues of causation.

Ultimate, proximate, and efficient. This is not philosophical sleight of hand. This is something that has been discussed by theologians and philosophers for centuries. And Christian philosophers who look at scripture, believe the scriptures, trust the word of God, have discussed these things as well because they are important.

So let me give you an example. So the ultimate causation of something is God. He is the one who brought the universe into existence. And everything that occurs in the universe ultimately is because he brought it into existence, right? So that's the ultimate.

Now, the proximate. He made the Earth and put the Garden of Eden where it is and put Adam and Eve in it. And Satan had already fallen. And so he allowed Satan to come into the garden. Could God have stopped Satan from coming in the garden? Of course he could have. He could have made an animal that eats snakes.

And that's all it does, you know, and grabbed it. And so God allowed these things to happen by his permission. And so he's now the proximate cause of the fall of Adam.

We'll get to that. So he allowed Adam and Eve to be in the garden. He allowed Satan to come in. And then Adam freely chose to rebel against God. Adam did this.

Now, this is what's called the efficient cause. So the efficient cause means that Adam is the actor. No one forced him to do it. The circumstances in which he existed were arranged by God.

But Adam is completely free to be able to do what he desires. And he did. He behaved in a manner consistent with, well, hisself. And so what he did was he decided on his own free will to rebel. God did not force him. God was not in his heart saying, do this, which some anti-Reform people say is the case, that God causes evil, is the author of evil. That's never the Reformed perspective, never has been.

It's a false accusation. Within the Reformed circles, we'll say things like this. Adam freely chose to rebel against God. And all the circumstances led up to it were arranged by God.

But Adam was not forced to rebel. So he is his efficient cause. He is the efficient cause of his own sin. Though God is the ultimate and the proximate, Adam is the efficient cause. So when we talk about ordination, God ordains the ultimate and the proximate conditions. And he knows the free choices that individuals are going to make, but they're still responsible for those choices. So he ordained that Adam sin. And the ordination here does not mean he put his hand on Adam's hand and then opened his jaw and made him eat the fruit.

That's what a lot of anti-Reform people say. Oh, God forced him to do it. No, that's not the case. He arranged everything. Adam freely chose, and so Adam is unresponsible. So when we say God ordained all things, we're talking about these levels of ultimate, proximate, and efficient causation. Even the efficient causation has worked after the counsel of his will because God knew Adam was going to freely choose. Now, that gives us the issues about that, compatibilist, free will, libertarian free will. We'll get into that right now.

And so these are the kind of things. So this is what we mean by God ordains it, but he doesn't cause Adam to sin. He does cause the trees to be in the garden. So when we say he ordained it in the proximate sense, he caused it.

When we say he ordained it in the efficient sense or efficient causation sense, then he's not the one who directly caused it. Make sense? It makes sense, but I have more questions for you.

I don't know if you have time for- Sure, I got time. Oh, all right. So if God ordained, well, first of all, does God ordain every single thing that happens in the entire universe at all times? Yes. Okay, so that means that God ordains that individual sinful actions take place. Is that correct?

For each person. Yes, and the proximate, you can say down to the proximate level, not the efficient level. Yep. Right, so but if God ordains, let's say you were talking about me, if God ordains that I steal something, which is the sin, is there any possibility that I as a human can do anything besides what God has ordained? Ah, that's a good question. Does the ordination of God mean that you have no choice to do anything contrary at that point of time?

And that's what the libertarian position is. They say if God has ordained you to do something, and he knows what your free will choice is gonna be, like you're gonna wear a red shirt or a blue shirt tomorrow, God knows what you're gonna do. Okay, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna risk trying to get into explaining this. He can cause you to wear one or the other, and he can arrange for you to wear one or the other. He can cause you to do it because Proverbs 21 one says, God moves the heart of the king where he wishes it to go. He can put a desire in your heart where you want to wear the red one instead of the blue one. But he can also just watch, so to speak, and your freedom you chose.

But either one of those is under the permission of God and the will of God in the ultimate sense, the proximate sense. We got a break, hold on, we'll be right back, okay? Hey folks, I know this is tough, but we can get into this. This is important stuff, but I'll be right back.

We have four open lines, 877-207-2276. We'll be right back. It's Matt Slick live, taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, buddy, welcome back to the show, Anthony. All right, you still there?

I'm here. All right, I was trying to explain it, and the break kind of got in the way there, and that's okay. So instead of me just jumping in on some more, let's see if we can catch up. Does that make sense? Do you have any other issues with it, or want to ask more questions? I mean, it makes sense, but yes, I have issues with it. So what you're saying is, when God ordains, if God, what I'm trying to get to is, if God ordains something, that a human being do something that is sinful, that person cannot avoid doing what God has ordained. Would you agree with that statement?

Yeah, what's wrong with that? So, well, if God ordains that someone sins, and there's no possibility of that person doing anything besides the sin, or the sins, why would God then punish the person with eternal damnation, if God himself has ordained that that happened? Well, if he's ordained that they have eternal damnation, then that's why he would do it, because he ordained it. Now, the Bible says in Ephesians 1-11 that he works all things after the counsel of his will. So do you agree that he works all things after the counsel of his will? I believe I can agree with that, if I understand it correctly. Okay, it just says he works all things after the counsel of his will. Do you have any problem with that? No, but I would take issue with the fact that his will, that, you know, how is it different to say that God created a world where humans can choose between good and evil? Is that not a correct thing to say?

Well, there's a yes and no. Now, normally, on the air, I don't get into it this deeply, but no one's calling in right now except for you, so I think what I'll do is take this time to go into it more deeply, all right? So we can work through this. The first thing we have to understand is that the Bible says God works all things after the counsel of his will. Ephesians 1-11, there's no if, ands, or buts about it. That's what it says, all things means all things. And that means everything that occurs occurs after the counsel of God's will.

Now, I'm gonna lay some stuff out here. In 2 Samuel 24, one, now again, the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, go, number Israel and Judah. That's 2 Samuel 24, one. But in 2 Samuel 24, 10, now David's heart troubled him after he had numbered the people, so David said to the Lord, I have sinned greatly in what I have done. So the anger of the Lord incited David to number Israel. When David did it, he was the one responsible for his sin.

Okay? This is what the scriptures teach, all right? Now, what I'm gonna do is read you stuff, because I want you to understand this is based in scripture. And then as we try and work through it, we have issues.

And we'll get through this, okay? So I'm gonna now read Acts 4, 27, 28, and then I'm gonna go to Acts 2, 23. So in Acts 4, 27, it says, for truly in this city, there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus. Now, what it's saying here, in the city, in Jerusalem, people were gathered against Jesus. That means they're bad because they're against Jesus.

This is no big deal, as far as understanding goes. Yeah, they're bad, they're against Jesus. For truly in this city, they were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. So Jesus is the anointed one. So who was gathered? So Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your purpose predestined to occur.

Now, wait a minute. If they're gathered against Jesus, then that means they're all ready and automatically in sin for doing that, and yet it was what God predestined to occur. Could it be that that reverse, the last part of it is referring to Jesus, that he's the one who's appointed to do what God has desired happen, or are you sure it's referring to the crowd gathered against him?

I'll read it again. For truly in this city, there were gathered against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. Okay, the whom, there in the Greek, is in a singular. Okay, so it's like saying, for truly in this city, there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, the one you anointed. In Greek, nouns have plurality and singularity.

We don't have that. Right, I get that, but the second part, what does it say? Okay, so truly in this city, there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, the one you anointed. Okay, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your purpose predestined to occur. So this is saying that they were gathered against Jesus to do whatever God's hand and God's purpose predestined to occur.

Could it be that there are instances, there are instances when God acts in that manner, but maybe it's not something that happens at all times in all places, or is it biblical that- What we're doing, wait, wait, hold on. What we're doing is reading one scripture. We're not going into, what could it mean in all these universal conditions?

What does it say right here? That's the issue. A lot of people who have problems with this will do what you're doing, and I'm not knocking you.

I'm not, okay? It's just that they'll say, well, if this means that, then let's look at everything else right now. And I say, nope, you don't. You look at what it says right now and you decide to believe what it says right now or reject what it says right now.

Because if you reject it, what you're gonna try and do is find some other way around to make it fit what you want because you see the difficulty in the human level. But there's a new level of theology I'm trying to teach people. Not that I'm the one who discovered it, no. This has been known for centuries and centuries. It's just most Christians are not taught to think these things through.

And it's new to a lot of people. They're not taught in the pulpit. They don't teach them in Bible studies. They don't teach them in Sunday schools.

They don't teach this stuff. Well, I think it's probably, that may be because not everyone agrees with it and thinks it's true. No, that's right. Not everyone agrees with the scripture.

That's correct. Not every Christian agrees with what the Bible says. Well, your interpretation of the scripture.

Did I interpret it? So. Well, hold on, hold on. Well, you have to be, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second, wait a second.

Watch. I believe that God makes even the wicked for the day of evil. Okay, I believe that. That God makes even the wicked for the day of evil. Do you agree or disagree that God would do something like that? He could make the wicked, but is it because God made them wicked or because he made them and they became wicked by their own choices? Well, they're born wicked.

Condiction. See, this is a lack of theology, a theological understanding. We're born wicked. We are by nature children of wrath, Ephesians 2-3. When you go to Romans 5-19, it says that through the one man's sin, transgression, the many were made sinners.

And were made, it says in the Greek, is aorist passive, which that means is the past tense action occurred to the people. The many were made sinners because of Adam's sin, Romans 5-19. This would be a really good Bible lesson for a lot of people to follow. And I'll use you as an example. And please, I'm not trying to mock you. I'm not trying to belittle you in any way.

So I hope that comes across. But look what it says in Romans 5-19. As through the one man's disobedience, that's Adam's sin, the many were made sinners. That means the many, which is a group, you have to understand what the context is, were made sinners. How were they made sinners by Adam's sin? That's what it says right there, Romans 5-19.

When you get back, I'm going to teach you through this. And we're going to put some more theology together. Folks, this is a good, good lesson in Bible theology.

Most people just don't agree because they don't try to go to God very deeply. Sorry, but it's true. And hey, Anthony, hold on, okay, buddy? We'll be right back, folks. After these messages, please stay tuned.

Welcome back to the show, Anthony. Are you still there? Yes. All right, so we'll just jump right back in. What I'm doing is trying to show you and others. Well, can I comment on that last verse? Sure, sure.

The thing about Romans 5-19 is it does not implicate God or deny human free will. We haven't gotten there yet. In the way that some of us... Okay?

Yeah. What a lot of people do is they jump ahead and they don't lay the bricks down before they build the foundation. And you're thinking ahead, and that's okay. But you have to understand, what this does is that what I do with people is I rearrange their bricks or I throw some bad ones out and put some new ones in. And they don't like it because they think they have it all figured out.

And I'm not saying I do, and they're not as smart as me. But when we come to verses like Romans 5-19, for example, which says, as through one man's disobedience, that's Adam, the many were made sinners. We have to understand that the people who were in Adam and who fell were made sinners because of Adam's sin. That's what it says. People may not like it, but I just say to them, well, too bad. You can take a marker and you can cross it out of your Bible if you don't like it.

And then I have to ask them the question, are you going to submit yourself to God's Word or God's Word to yourself? So here's a test. Do you believe that the many, the many, we can get into who that was, or is, basically it's all people, were made sinners because of Adam's sin? No, they were not yet alive. You're asking me? Yeah. I'd have to look at the various ways of interpreting that before I affirm it.

No, no, no. Don't look at the varying ways of interpreting it to find what you need. What does it say? Well, you know, sometimes they speak metaphorically, sometimes they speak allegorically. I have to see, honestly, I admit, these verses, so you have to understand, do they speak poetically?

It's not poetry. So I have to look at the verse itself. Okay, well, you know, we'd have to look at it and see what exactly it is. Well, okay, what you should say is, what you should say is, I need to read the context.

And that's fine, read the context, okay. But do it in the NASB because all the other versions get Romans 5.18 wrong. I know I'm taking a lot of your time, but can I kind of sum this up and conclude real quickly? So there are two problems that people might have with what you're saying. First of all, that God ordains sin. There's problem number one.

And I'm not denying that it may be the case, but that's a problem. And then problem number two is that not only does God ordain sin, but he also punishes the people who are following his ordination, even though they have no choice. So these are the theological issues that I think people are trying to work through when they disagree with this theological system. Let me jump in and help you out.

I can help you. I can figure this out for people. I can make it make sense for them, but they have to go step by step. What most people do is resist God. Most Christians in the world today resist the truth of God's Word.

They don't want to believe everything it says. Now, earlier I asked you, or I said, I believe that God works all things. Excuse me, I said that he even makes the wicked for the day of evil. And you say, well, not really. I was literally quoting Proverbs 16.4.

The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil. See, this is what I'll do with people. I'll quote a verse as though it's just an opinion I have, and they'll say, no, I disagree with that. I go, yeah, but you see, I just quoted it.

And then I'll give them the reference. They go, that's your interpretation. I say, I didn't interpret it.

I just quoted it. So they understood what it says, and then they resist what it says. This is the way of the majority of Christians.

It is. When I go to Acts 4, 27, 28, For truly in this city they were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus. Now, they were gathered.

That means an effect upon them occurred. They were gathered. Whom you anointed. That's Jesus who was anointed. So who was gathered? The Herod, Pontius Pilate, and the Gentiles, the peoples of Israel, to do what your hand and your purpose predestined to occur.

So the purpose of God and the predestination of God was that these people would lead Jesus to the cross. That's what it says. And people will say, well, I don't like that.

And I say, you don't have to like it. That's what it says, though. Now, when you go to Acts 2, 23, This man delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, and you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put them to death. Well, this was the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, yet they're the ones responsible. So when Christian theologians look at these things, they've got to figure out, how does this work? And the solution is found in understanding what ordination means. Ordination does not always mean direct causation.

It can mean indirect causation. So let me give you an example of something. So my daughter, let's say, is 12 years old, and she has a certain show that she likes to watch at 9 o'clock at night, let's just say. And I say to her at 830, hey, I'd like you to clean your room up before we watch the show. I know she could do it if she really tried, but I know she's not going to, and I know that.

And yet I require it of her because it's the right thing to do. You need to clean up your room. And she says to me, well, Dad, I can't do it in time. Can I then watch the show?

I'll start, watch the show, and then finish it tomorrow. And I say, yeah, that's fine. Now, I knew she wouldn't be able to do that. I brought a circumstance around where she freely said, well, God, I mean, Lord, Dad, I can't do that. And I know that, and I'm working with her at the same time. Now, who's responsible for her saying the very thing, well, I'm not going to be able to finish it in time? Is it me responsible, or is she the one who freely said it, even though I know that's what she's going to say? Am I causing her to say it directly, or am I arranging the circumstances where I know she freely will say that? Now, who's responsible for her own words?

Okay, are you there? I'm there, yeah, she is. She is. Now, did I make her say that sentence? No. Did I make her?

No, I didn't. So she's responsible for her own actions. This is where proximate and efficient causation come together. This is the illustration. Now, we can get into the freewill type.

There's more to this, but this is just this illustration at this level first. I'll call back some other time to just finish this conversation, because I know it's taken a long time, but I do have some disagreements with you. Well, you can disagree, and I like what people do.

I just say if you can disagree, disagree biblically, because they don't understand that Jesus is not the blonde-haired, blue-eyed Caucasian surfer dude dressed in a woman's nightgown and saying the door of your heart asking permission to be let in. God is the one who works all things after the counsel of His will. This means that of an actual, excuse me, an infinite number of potential existences that could have occurred before God created anything.

God knew exactly all things that would occur in any particular actuality He materialized. That means every choice. Can I challenge that?

Can I challenge that? If you do, you'll get into heresy. Well, let's just see. Could it be interpreted as follows, that if God working according to His will created mankind with freewill, and that that is God's will, that mankind has libertarian freewill, could that be a possible interpretation of that? No, libertarian freewill doesn't work.

It does not work. I'm talking about that specific verse. Okay, I'll show you. So is freewill, I'm setting you up here. Are you ready? I'm setting you up.

In a polite way. I'm just loving on you, but it's going to sound a little bit upsetting up here. Does freewill mean that you have to have the ability to do good and bad, and you choose between good and bad? No one's forcing you, and that's freedom. To be able to choose what you want to do, good or bad, you choose one or the other, and that's what freewill is. Would you agree?

Yes. Okay, that's heresy. I'll tell you why. How so? Because God cannot do good or evil.

He can only do good. And so freewill must be interpreted in light of God's character, not man's character. And I did. I set you up, and I'm saying it. I set you up to, I want people to see, and yourself, that you were arguing from a humanistic perspective. You're judging freedom, and what freewill is, by your own experience and your own standard, not what God is.

This is the first mistake a lot of people make. Freewill is not the ability to be able to choose between good and bad, because God can't choose between good and bad. He can only do that what is good. And Jesus, who is human, has freewill, and he can only do what is good. So freewill is not the ability to be able to have the options of good and bad, do either one, and you choose one. I just want to point out, there's a theoretical presupposition you're ensuring there that I'm not sure is biblical, which is that God cannot do bad.

What? Are you saying God can do bad? What I'm saying is God has the possibility of doing bad, but does not do bad because of his perfection. Let me just warn you, Anthony, that is a very serious heresy. You do not understand who God is if you're going to say that. It would give you a logical something.

But it's a perspective that could challenge... Don't say that over the air, because you're blaspheming. Okay, now, hold on. Hold on to the break.

Get back when I show you that this is a serious issue. This is what happens with people. Oh, he hung up. Okay, he was committing blasphemy, folks. He was.

Yeah, to fix that, correct it. We'll be right back after the break. Please take two.

Four open lines. Give me a call. It's Matt Slick live. Taking your calls at 877-207-2276.

Here's Matt Slick. All right, buddy, before we get to the next caller, unfortunately, Anthony hung up. I was hoping he wouldn't, but he did commit blasphemy. Not an unforgivable sin, but he was saying that it's a possibility that God could sin, do something that's wrong. And that is blasphemy, to even say the possibility. So I don't know what church he really went to.

It would be interesting to know. But let me address this. God is holy. He cannot be not holy. Whatever attribute God has, he cannot possess its opposite. He's holy, 1 Peter 1.16. So, therefore, he cannot not be holy. Whatever attribute God possesses, he automatically does not possess its opposite. If he's holy, he does not possess non-holiness. If he's good, he does not also possess non-goodness. If he has the possession of sinlessness, it cannot also be that he can sin. God can only do what his nature permits him to do when his nature is holy. And since he's holy, he cannot sin. And so the idea of saying that God might have been able to sin, he just chooses not to, is blasphemy. As Christadelphianism can teach that more.

Mormonism can teach that. And that is a blasphemous thing to say. And it doesn't mean he's not going to heaven or something like that.

I have to find out more about him to see where he's coming from. But that's blasphemy. I did tell him that, all right? So this is a problem. And this often happens.

You've got to understand that when one heresy is defended, other heresies usually have to be built around it in order to grant it foundation. And that's the problem. If you're going to raise human freedom, then you have to denounce or lower God's freedom or nature. And this is what happened.

So let me summarize here, folks. God is sovereign over all things. Nothing occurs unless it's by his permission. And we have different areas of his will called the decorative, prescriptive, and permissive, which we didn't get into, which I wanted to talk to you about with this guy, but, you know, oh well. And decorative will is let there be light. He decrees it, he causes it by his direct hand. Prescriptive will is you shall not lie. He says this is what I want from you morally. But then his permissive will is he allows you to lie. But if you're going to lie, you're free to lie. He's permitting you freely to lie. But even your freedom to lie is within his sovereign plan. Nothing can occur in the universe outside of God's sovereignty and control.

Now, people will say, well, I don't like that. Well, then take the Bible and put it in the trash. If you don't like the idea of God's sovereignty, that he works all things after the counsel of his will, Ephesians 1-11, or as in the case of Joseph and Egypt sold into slavery by his brothers and they wanted to kill him, where God says you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. God was involved even in our sinfulness. It doesn't mean that he causes our sinfulness, but that even our sinful actions are within the purview of God's decorative will in the ultimate sense. But we are still responsible for our own actions. Now, a lot of people can't understand this, and it takes practice to run through and learn the logic behind this.

It's not like you've got to have 18 degrees and big thick glasses to get this. It's just that so many people have faulty ideas of what something means that they, I have to undo those faulty ideas in order to lay down the truth of the logic of what's going on. So libertarian free will is the position that a human being is free to be able to sin or not sin.

Basically, that's what it says. But the Bible contradicts that and says that the unbelievers only capable of doing sin can do no good, and I can go through all the verses on that. Libertarianism doesn't make any biblical sense because it's contradicted by the scriptures. The scriptures teach compatibilist free will, which is that God's sovereignty and human freedom are compatible. If anybody were to deny that, they're denying the sovereignty of God, and they'd have to say, well, man's freedom has to be so free that not even God can influence on it, and that's blasphemy because they're saying God is not God. So this is what always happens when libertarian free will is defended. God's character, God's nature, God's abilities are reduced.

They're restricted in order to make way for man's greatness. This is how it works. This is one of the great sins in the Christian church today, and it is a sin that needs to be repented of. There's only one God. You're not Him. There's one God.

He's on the throne. He works all things after the counsel of His will, and how we have to understand those particulars may be a little bit difficult for some people, but the truth is He works all things after the counsel of His will. Whether you like it or not is irrelevant to whether or not it's true because it is true, and you have to accept and you have to believe that's what God says. Therefore, my free will choices, which you could say, are free, and they are.

You freely make them are within the plan of God. God does not come across time and say, What's He going to do right now? What's He going to do?

Oh, that's what He's going to do. That is not the case. That's open theist heresy. Maybe this guy was an open theist.

I don't know. But with open theism, what they say is the future is open because God doesn't even know what the free will creatures are going to do because if He did, then they would be free to do it, but that's not true. Just as I gave the illustration, I know that my daughter will ask a certain thing if I arrange certain circumstances. I didn't force her to just as that guy admitted. So the idea of libertarian free will saying that they can't have free will if God knows what we're going to do is not true. It's not logical.

It's not necessary. But yet they hold on to this false idea and then in the process, they've reduced God's character, God's nature. This is idolatry in a low form and it's heresy in a low form and it needs to be repented of and the Christian church needs to first to bow its knee before the sovereignty of God, the holiness of God, the greatness of God, the complete sovereign right of God to do with his creation as he desires. Read Romans 9, 9 through 23 if you don't like that, but you can always take those verses out of your Bible as well if you don't like God's sovereignty. God chooses.

God's the one who ordains. You don't like it? Not my problem.

It's yours. You read the scriptures and then some people will say to me, well, Matt, that's just your interpretation and I quote scriptures and they don't like the scriptures. I had to wrestle with this too, but I came to the point of submitting my will to the will of God. He's the sovereign king, not me. He's the sovereign king, not you. He works all things after the counsel of his will, even your freewill choices, and they are free. But you've got to understand, they are not so free that they're independent from God. That would be another blasphemy. So you see, you've got to understand that when you exalt man, you demote God and it always ends up in more and more heresies.

That's unfortunate, but that's the way it is in the Christian church in a lot of areas. Let's get to C.J. from Boise. C.J., welcome back, buddy. How's it going?

It's going, man. Just fighting heresies and teaching truth and people resist, but that's normal. Well, and actually that's a good segue into my question here today. So I have a debate I'm preparing for tomorrow on the incarnation.

I have a argument that I've not heard yet, so I want to test it by sharing it with somebody who has been in these fields before. So the person I'm debating basically says that Jesus is fully God in heaven and fully man on earth, but never both at the same time. Wrong. Right.

That's wrong. Exactly, right. That's Nestorian.

It's a kind of Nestorian heresy, if you know what that is. Kind of. Yes, sir. So the point I want to make in its general form is something can't cease being what it is by nature. Correct. In other words, if it's inherently that thing, it can't stop being that thing.

Well, that's not necessarily true. Take a piece of wood, for example. Once it's burned, it no longer is wood.

It's just carbon that no longer contains that woodness. Okay, and so that is a good thing to cheer then so I could be a little bit more technically accurate with that. Right. One thing I wanted to ask, though, to the interlocutor is, does he believe the incarnation is ongoing? Now, before you say anything, my understanding is that the answer to that question is yes, because Jesus rises as a man, as well as being God, and so he is still physically incarnated today as we speak. Is that accurate?

Yes, it is. He is a man right now, Colossians 2.9, for in him dwells the fullness of deity in bodily form. In 1 Timothy 2.5, there's one mediator between man and God, the man Christ Jesus. And also, in order to be a high priest, you have to be a man according to Leviticus 8, Numbers 4, Exodus 29, which is why he was baptized to enter into the priesthood after the order of Melchizedek by which he makes intercession for us forever, Hebrews 6.20, 7.25. If he's not a man right now, he cannot be our intercessor.

If we don't have an intercessor, we're lost. So yes, he's a man right now and forever will be in a glorified body per 1 Corinthians 15, 35-45. Okay?

All right, awesome. And that is exactly what I was thinking, too, because it seemed to me like if Jesus is the representation of what we will actually do rising from the dead and we expect to rise as... I mean, the next question I was going to ask to this person is, do we rise as like divine beings? No, we don't.

No, no, no, no, no. We don't rise as divine beings, but as glorified bodies. Right, exactly. And so my question for him is going to be if Jesus is being prayed, because he agrees that we can pray to Jesus as a divine being now. And so my question for him is going to be if Jesus is a divine being now, but is also God, or excuse me, is also man now, then haven't you conceded that Jesus is full to God and full of man? And that, of course, would eliminate his position that they're never the same simultaneously.

Well, that's a problem. Now, think about this. You can ask him which nature died on the cross, the human or divine. Which one?

Are you there? And it would be the human, right? Right, human nature.

If only the human nature died, then how is it that this sacrifice is of divine value? Okay, you got that? Okay, yes, sir. Do you have an answer? Because if you don't, I'll give you the answer.

I don't think I do. All right, this is important because it's going to relate to a debate, and if you want, I can coach you up on Christology and things like that. But the thing is, the hypostatic union is a teaching that in the one person of Christ are two distinct natures. The communicatio idiomatum is the doctrine of the communication of the properties where the attributes of both natures are ascribed to the single person. So Jesus says, I am thirsty.

I will be with you always. So he's claiming the attributes of humanity as well as divinity as a single person. So one of the things you can do, and that's why when he died on the cross, he died as that person. Therefore, the sacrifice is of divine value. So one of the things you got to do with him is ask, is Jesus a single person?

This is critical. Is he a single person? When he's walking on the earth, was he a single person?

Yes. Did he have a human nature and a divine nature? If he says yes, you got him. If he says no, you got him too.

Because you can just jump all over that like a monkey in a cupcake. So when he says yes, that Jesus is both divine and human back then, I say okay, then the one person had both those attributes, right? Yes, so the one person by definition has the attributes of both natures, correct?

Can the one person ever not be that one person? Because if suddenly only the divine nature goes to heaven, then the attributes of the human nature are not ascribed to that single person and that person no longer exists, it's no longer Jesus. Do you see?

I do actually. So really quickly just because I have a feeling this might be a question he would preempt. All right, I wish he preempted this just in case you were to ask it. If I were to say, and assuming that I haven't had the chance to explain yet, if I were to say the divine nature died on the cross and he jumped on that saying, so do you believe that the Trinity was appended? No, the divine nature did not die on the cross. Only the human nature did. Divinity can't die.

It's a biological function. The heart stopped with Christ as his humanity. And then his human nature and his divine nature continued on after the death. Otherwise, you have the cessation of the person of Christ. Right, and that would be physicalism. Yes, and physicalism, that's right.

It would be close to physicalism and what's called property dualism. So I'll tell you what, we're about out of time. You can email me, and if you want, give me your cell number. I'll call you later. We can talk tomorrow. And I'll coach you through a lot of this so you can get this down.

Because you've got to get to it. Yeah, absolutely. I will absolutely jump on that. Okay.

Well, just email me, info at karm.org, okay, buddy? All right, man. We'll see you. God bless you. Thank you. All right. We've got interesting calls tonight.

And Martin from Virginia, I apologize. You waited 15 minutes. Call back tomorrow, okay? Because I want to hear what you had to say, the links I didn't, the references I didn't mention. There's a lot I didn't mention on the first call. Hey, folks, hope you enjoyed that. God bless everybody. I'll get tomorrow. Another program powered by the Truth Network.