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Reformed Covenant Theology (w/ Darren Colwell & Ben Hyink)

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The Truth Network Radio
February 21, 2021 12:01 am

Reformed Covenant Theology (w/ Darren Colwell & Ben Hyink)

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February 21, 2021 12:01 am

The sons of light are joined by Darren Colwel and Ben Hyink. Both are church planting pastors at Covenant Grace Church in Syracuse, Utah. They joined us to discuss Covenant Theology. We think our conversation will be helpful to Latter-day Saints or post-Latter-day Saints seeking to understand the Bible and theology more fully. You can find out more information about Covenant Grace Church at:

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The restored church. The Latter Day Saints where we go. Your mercy, because of this process should traverse and align welcome fireflies to this episode of the outer brightness podcast and until we have two very special guest with us this week we have been hiding and Darren Colwell is a printer names the correct that's great. It's awesome right now that all that English and Greek study recently is a Melvin out all right so you would like to thank you guys for coming out to the podcast is a brief introduction to them there. Both pastors are serving at covenant Grace Church and Syracuse, Utah will give more information in the details when we publish podcasts and also at the end and I'll talk more about their ministry. So it's a church that I was able to visit my visit family over the holidays. We are church here in the Albany New York actually have been praying for their church for months now we we heard updates through emails so every week in our prayer meetings we been praying for them that that the work would go forward and that the Lord will bless their their ministry and so is really great to be able to go out and visit and to see them preach and to fellowship with them.

So thank you Ben and Dan for going on the shelf. You're welcome. Thanks for having and just to get a little bit more back onto I when I attended a church the first Sunday that I tended I believe is Darren you gave the sermon, and you had sprinkled in. I really love the service because they are pastors of a confessional church and so as part of their service.

They would also quote from 1689 London Baptist confession, which is a confession that they hold to over if I understand correctly, you don't require all of your members to hold every point of that confession is a correct correct okay but but in a sense, it's it's kind of a confession as to what you will teach the membership every week and so it's off to get the hold. Every single piece of Dr. but that's what you'll be teaching is kind yeah exactly we want people to know what they were here any given Sunday and I will reap where we stand on the 32 chapters 32 different boards of vendor specs all right out there for anybody to see it's it's a confession. But we grow into something that we all have to understand or we would warrant a child who knows the gospel and is saved to be just as welcome know through your old enough to be a member without having to understand you know all the parents of Dr. but to give them something that they can grow into them and learning were all learning together so we wanted to be a really robust regression.

That's one of the reason is great and I think it's important to have a confession or your church.

That same sense. I know that the John MacArthur he's to be technically doesn't hold a 1689 London Baptist confession, but they do have a confession for their church and it's very similar in the sense that he says this is what we teach our church to agree with every single point of it, but this is what will be teaching and so I Ira I really like that because I can now okay when you're looking for church know exactly what the teaching resending something that's really great secret music keeps is consistent with historical theology is not something that Darren and I sat down and said hey let's come up with this brand-new document. It was something we said okay let's agree with what you know were formed Baptist churches have confessed for centuries and let's agree with that. And so it's not only gives new members order visitors an understanding of what we believe. Right from the outset they were not hiding anything. This is what we believe in something that also we can say this is something that formed Baptist is believed for centuries exactly that's when we look at the reformers they were. They were not trying to do something brand-new like he said they were trying to show they would know Calvin would even look back to the church fathers and compare what follows a set over the centuries so that he would make sure my coming was something brand-new, or is this something we can look down through the ages and see what the Christian church so yeah that's that's great that's that's we can do a whole other episode on confessional and why that's important and I love I love professionalism. That's but I bring it up because I really enjoy the fact that you incorporated into the preaching into the worship service that you know it's not just this dry document that we read to the side and you have to know facet and then move on. It's something that's part of the church as part as part of the worship and not something also really enjoyed was during during Darren sermon. He didn't make the sermon about covenant theology, but he incorporated concepts and beliefs about know from within. Covenant theology into the sermon and I found incredibly edifying venue to the same week. We just talked about priesthood and in in our previous episode, we were just wrapping up and you had talked about how God wanting to make it a dwelling place among his people. And I really love that sermon. I just and I found that currently edifying as well. So just seeing how God is working amongst his people and so that's how I was interested to two years on the show and ask for us to talk about covenants because when missionaries are teaching one of these missionaries are teaching one of the things that they bring up covenants God makes covenants we make of God and so a lot of Latter Day Saints are confused about what Christians believe about covenants and so we really wanted to talk about how do we understand covenants as Latter Day Saints. And for those who are coming out of the Latter Day Saints church and Christianity.

What are they wouldn't expect what you Christians believe about covenants and so that's kind of high-level what we wanted to discuss today for a topic so you can start the discussion off my wanted to pose a question specifically between me Mike on Paulsons. We are both where all or Latter Day Saints. So I called Paul what were you taught know what consistent what consisted in a covenant in the LDS church. What did it require so I'll start with you. Michael so close on Mormon covenants. It would be to a promise between us and God and these were always initiated by priesthood leaders at the time of a priesthood ordinance. So for example when we were baptized we were making a covenant to God. Among other things, we would keep his commandments, and in return he would grant us eternal life, so the pressure was on us because of these covenants to be perfectly obedient and by being obedient to our and of the covenant.

We would find God, so to speak, and forced him to give us eternal life. Another are some along B seems these days who will say that you do not have to be obedient for the covenant to stay in force, but you do still have to receive the LDS ordinances to get into those covenants and if you were to leave the LDS church still still be broken thank you you I wanted to point out one of the books of Scripture that the Latter Day Saints altar call the doctor covenants, and in that book, chapter 130. I think this is the section. This is when Michael is referring to. It says there is a lot irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world upon which all blessings are predicated and we have when we obtain any blessing from God. It is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated versus 20, 21, I think that's that's what you were alluding to Michael right when you said that when we obey God, and we make these covenants that God is kind of force to bless us.

If we obey, we must let verse and I don't remember where it is now worse is I the Lord and bound when you do what I say but we do not what I say you have no promise that was another one in our mission in the mission field and a member we we had this whole campaign was a Gorgon be really really obedient this week and working on finding God in and force him to help us find people you baptize in back and that now I'm just like, how can I been so arrogant to think that I could bind God for my actions, but that is what I believe is a letter to explain now it's interesting to think back on reasonably writer versus voltage anything that enough not know much about the job covering letter simply covenants. The only thing I would add is mentioned that you know now it is some Latter Day Saints will say that you don't have to be obedient for the covenant to apply and I would just say that no I applaud a latter-day St., if they're moving in that direction because they seem to be moving in the direction of their thinking towards grace, but it does not align with with Latter Day Saints Scriptures says Matthew pointed out some D&C 8210 by morning bound me to understand and D&C 130 so it takes away that to a promise concept of the Latter Day Saints have about covenants. If you try to save you don't have to be a PDF or that if you're disobedient. The covenants not going to be null and void at great thank you both all right down and been so small. I want to say again thank you for coming on as nice to finally have some more reform guys on my side of the reform are now outnumbering the non-reformed so that means you know like I can get stuff to the house and I can pass the bills and get stuff done here is that what's happening here yeah is a hostile takeover me and Paul together count as like a reformed person or at least have one these days together there because I reform like we have lots of discussions and you know Michael listen to volleyball come sermon the other day and he really love that is like you know what this whole reform thing sounded really good right now and I'm just like you reported to Barbara the thinking is for coming on again so related to the first question how they describe how Latter Day Saints he covenants how would you respond from a biblical perspective there parts of that that would be the would be in line with the Bible or how would you how would you explain what the covenant is what requires the Bible. Yeah, that's a great question here, and what you said I never heard like the D&C definitions and aspects of that. But what I heard about what would say is that is absolutely biblical in relation to the law in relation to to the law of merit or what we recall will get into the terminology publishing a little bit but the covenant of works that if you obey God is obligated to give Boston real Paul Topp talks about this in Romans four that to the one who works projects which is due and you earn wages. The problem with it is that it doesn't recognize our standing before God's sense of so kind to back up a little bit.

We should note when we hear the word covenant.

Covenants not a word that we use often in our language.

I think you are trying to really hear the word covenant brought up almost like in the name of the doctrine and covenants or something like that, you might hear it on the marriage ceremony may be some legal jargon but even then probably not. You probably talk contracts and a contractor cut or similar covenant. One guy done an old Palmer Robertson name defines it as an bound, which is a good way to find it because there's a lot of different types, covenants that exist in the Bible and in humanity and the world.

Some are talking about. What is accounting, biblically speaking, usually were looking at an oath bound covenant on northbound prompts between God and man at some level enters different types of oath bound promise say there's the brand promise where God says likely Israelites on Mount Sinai. If you obey, you will receive these blessings. Your younger children won't die, you're on your blockage. You have your animals die to be plentiful.

Blessing will shower down upon the promise and yogurt to stay here forever, but if you disobey if you break my coming then I will break my coming theater since I will fulfill the curse of the covenant toward you and you will receive my rock on them to kick you out of the land and vision be for members can be trial version before and Kings coming against you from subject but required obedience in order to be fulfilled. And so in that sense, the obvious definition or understanding of covenant is correct, there is merit that, if you were to obey the commands of the covenant perfectly. You will obtain God would because God is in himself, honest, truthful that he will not lie or renege on good terms the covenant that she created every covenant that bets in Scripture comes from God to man as condescension going to have to make any promises to you chose to fulfill perfectly. Then we will work out. That covenant promises.

The problem is we always return to diminish the terms of the covenant. It's no longer have to obey perfectly fits I have to obey from the decent heritage or most of the time or do enough good things outweighs the bad things and that will get me my covenant, faithful, and so will come up with all these other rules and regulations. Writer talk Pharisees that it's it's what know the D&C is all about rated good tricks all these additional rules and regulations to help you keep the rules of the covenant so regular church attendance Tyvek logic and certain drinks are doing certain things during other will help you balance the scales yet what Michael said earlier, God views not in not in a timeline like we do. God just sees everything all at once. So when Michael said you know this week really good.

Obey the things that were supposed to do work keep our side of the covenant God is already seen the week before that we've broken the covenant and as I heard Michael talk.

I guess it it really conjures up a great deal of empathy for our friends here right because when we look at the Bible it all and refers to God as a covenant keeping God with his people. If you look in the Bible.

It never refers to the people as covenant keeping people because from the fall. We are not we are covenant breaking people you look at Abraham and this is one of my favorite explicit covenants that that it talks about because it is God showing that I will keep my covenant, and in its actually ship shown the cutting of the covenant retakes these animals and he puts the Habs and each time he walks in between symbolizing this same thing should happen to me.

God if I don't keep my side of the covenant.

We don't see that people making those types of covenants with God. What we see is God making covenants with man because he's the only one who can keep the covenant.

I can't think of a time where a human being in the Bible initiates a covenant with God. God is always the initiator of a relationship or a covenant with his people and so even in that yes are are there always going to be similarities in how the LDS referred to covenants in air or anything in the Bible.

Yes, there will be, but it always like Darren said it it it's going to fall short because they neglect to remember life host rebellion in the Garden of Eden. Yeah, I'm really glad glad you brought up that the covenant that God made with Abraham, I don't really understand the implications of that until I started listening to the linear series by RC Sproul and he talked about that and I think he even anecdote about how you know like a lot of times people go up to them in relative RC Sproul or Tyler people conferences and say you know like right. Could you write me the most important passage of the Bible to you and he wrote that passage you know it was a single verse within a passage and you just reading it would make any sense wise at some point, you know people be so puzzled by it buys us most of our passage and I thought it would be John 316 or these wonders are like that you chose this and and he went in to explain exactly what you said that whatever God promised he will fulfill he will not go back on that and I think that's I think and I and and just to sum up, what we've been talking about working to get more into how we receive salvation from the from the LDS standpoint, I would just add that. Like you said we may covenants with God and we are asked to keep them and by our obedience, we receive the blessings of salvation when we look at the Bible. It's God makes a covenants God keeps them and he brings people into unity with Christ into the new covenant so it's is looking at it come from complete different perspective and so I think will will get more in depth on that.

I think as we get as we go along in the discussions of thank you so much of her for what you contribute itself. I really appreciate this conversation and so what we talked about what makes a covenant so Paul and Michael, let's talk about what covenants that Latter Day Saints actually make as members. What comest do they make and how do they make us a Paula start off with you.

Yes, so the LDS church would define covenants as being related to the ordinances so all of all of the LDS priesthood ordinances it says entail a covenant so those ordinances would be would be. Baptism is the sacrament, our Lord's supper the endowment ceremony in the temple while washing his anointing was in the temple endowment ceremony in the temple marriage in ceiling in the temple, and I suppose also the second anointing in the temple yet to go there, Paul. I'm sure there's gonna be some entities and others can get triggered Michael to have anything to add to, you know, we made so many covenants in the LDS church that I don't even remember all of the covenants that I made specifically, you know, like, what covenants I made when I got sealed in the temple. For example, I don't even really remember that while but just to go over some of them just different ordinances but we may covenants to mourn with those that mourn to stand as witnesses of God in all times and all places. We made a covenant to be chaste to live, the word of wisdom you to take care of our bodies and then we temporally made the covenant to defend the LDS church, even by sacrificing our own lives is necessary and I believe we made a covenant to keep the law of consecration is that correct you guys remember when you how it was in a document covenants where consecration was like physical property you would consecrated to the church and that if they would redistribute it. But in the yard and the temples are minor is kind of a modified law consecration very willing to give your time, talents and everything to the church is Christ Latter Day Saints right that's that's right now yeah so those are a lot of covenants to be made for males as though the covenant of the priest and that we talked about in our persistent episodes so right in and that basically involves when you receive the priesthood and in when you honor and magnify that prestudy receive receive eternal life. Essentially, so that basically the entire planet in the entire way that a sense believe that the return to live in the presence of God is by making these covenants and keeping these covenants and that's why it's so it's on the forefront of every Latter Day Saints mind when they're thinking about religion when they're talking about Christians about Cummins as I think that's why this could be a really fruitful discussion both for Latter Day Saints. You may know who are not interested in leaving the church or 30 Saints were questioning our Christians are talking to the Latter Day Saints friends because as therein as you said earlier, you know missions are not constantly thinking about how can I make covenant with God to be saved and on. I mean it's it's it's it's kind like a language barrier runoff is not really thinking the same as on the same mindset. So when were trying to talk to them. There is theirs is barrier that were not getting through. You know they see covenants is essential.

We have to make covenants and keep them in and obey as much as we can so it's just it's it's just a weird it's a translation gloss plus in translation so we can so understanding covenants better from the LDS perspective in the Christian perspective maybe can help us to witness to them better. So when I read the next question or the discussion. It sounds like you both kind of Artie answered it already.

The question would being Christians make covenants and does differ between Christian traditions, but then you kind of Artie answered that we don't really make covenants we talk about the marriage covenant right would you had anything else to that. Yeah there are covenants that we make some churches for instance, particularly on their higher church denominations, Presbyterians, some Baptists they might have a church covenant where the members of the church covenant together, but that's coming. It's not that we may click the marriage covenant between one human being another work collective body. We don't make covenants between us and draw because we are not in a position where we can make a covenant between a subgraph, God himself is is high and exalted, and far above us in and we we can't hold God to we can't make God obey, a promise or fulfill something no wonder ways that I think you hear about would be like a foxhole type prayers God. If you get me out of this very church that would be the kind of covenant that we would make with God and we know on the face of it is under actually no obligation, and so many covenants to make a covenant with God is to reverse the order of who God is and who we are because every covenant that God makes a command again the unit she later is an act of condescension toward God and stepping down to our level.

It's your not every covenant is there a covenant of grace. They're all gracious because God didn't have to reveal anything about himself word where ants were just mentioned. God is good and gracious God, who reveals himself to us through Adam's condescension is is important because the covenants that we make. I make a covenant with my wife in marriage right.

We are both finite beings are born and we will die. We make a covenant with Noah church covenant are we covenant together to do whatever. If you break that covenant between finite and finite. It's it's broken you coming behind the bar right when you break a covenant like was broken with the covenant of work starting in the garden when data is broken like Darren said of the rebellion of man. We have made. We have broken any eternal covenant and we have any eternal consequence that must be paid in so God stepping down and making covenant with man is different than man, saying he God infinite being greatest of all, I get a covenant with you it's it's it's I would say it's consistent with LDS theology that they are striving to become like God.

So would make sense that they would constantly be trying to make covenants with God right there putting him themselves almost on his level as they are striving to be that way really appreciate this these answers. Darren Ogden jumped in and kinda key off of something you said so you said God is under no obligation to us and when I came out of the LDS faith and just a couple years later after accepting Christian baptism and heading towards ministry started to attend seminary and study theology. The concept of God as creator X Nyla creator was something that you know is kind of anathema to Latter Day Saints and so as I study that started out by concept and really started to understand how important that is to our understanding of who God is, in relation to us that the statement you made that God is under no obligation to us really make sense to me, for the first time I met him in the report represent our Mormon friends and and asked because for them. They view God as a literal father, both spiritually and know the physical sense as well. So would you say to a C him I say will will. God is our literal father would, wouldn't he be neglectful if you didn't keep up obligations to us, how do you answer the question, monitors the aspect of UC presented in Scripture only existed between one man and God initially met with Adam and we also see when we can see that in Genesis qualify for our talks about that Adam is the sound being the center God and hope with others and open up.

Maybe we'll get to the God and his obligation to creatures is there.

He talks about them in the Sonoma morning Matthew five what she gives is that he gives rain on the just and the unjust tea reduces what we call common grace is grace that nobody deserves and yet she gives it and then we release it wasn't God under fatherly obligation to us what were really saying is that were entitled to something from God and what were vendors in order to get that bad relationship and entitlement we have to say if it will guard your heavenly father, John doesn't claim heavenly father over us in our sinful state. He claims creator over us, but he actually send spiritually. Like the Pharisees and those who are challenging Jesus Jesus as your father worsens of Satan. You have a different spiritual father than what you think you'd been because genetics doesn't count.

That's what the heart is first Corinthians 15 to Paul very clearly since the physical comes before the spiritual. And so about father Henry can't look to a spiritual father because we have to look what is her relationship with God grounded on biblical wisdom, Bible study about our relationship with God and it sounds correctly. I God, your father, but really what I think were trying to say is God's entitled to give me something in God's obligated to give me something that's obligated to relate to me in a certain way. But if all we are his creatures. Psalm eight talks about this. What is man that you are mindful and every relationship of ours to God has to begin at that level of humility because if we don't have that humility before God and understanding their creatures didn't really act and understand everything God doesn't. It makes absolutely no sense why God would say you know what to bring.

Cyrus against you Israel to destroy you from an insect because you forsaken the covenant on your brand gobble on the intensity and famine against you got sense if we have a copy of God's obligated to provide for us the way that we think of fatherhood. Now that would sound select abuse. But if were creatures before dawn, who violated an internally perfect God succumbed and are worthy of of just that what God is doing isn't abusive. It's just us in every moment of pleasure every moment of joy that we have on this life is actually an act of grace from the God who should rightfully snap except Paul can I ask you question cunning follow-up to that is it true that the LDS teach and believe that everyone is born a son of God. Yes, that a child of God and so I think that's an important distinction as well.

Right. We believe that we are born in sin, the Bibles are. The Bible teaches that we are born in sin and therefore an enemy of God and anyone outside of the initiation of God and the grace of God in our lives will remain in that condition and so I think even at the beginning of what they teach. God is our literal father.

They believe that that is true of every ball person who is born and we would say outside of God by grace, saving some we are not born sons of God. We are born enemies of God in doing exactly what we want and that is violating and rebelling against God, son of God is such an important term in Scripture because we think Accenture epigenetic procession that the Bible over and over and over use of Summit God. It's actually referring to a position and what we know who.

Adam is called the synagogue he stood positionally as God's firstborn to receive the blessings for obedience. If you obey the curses after this event Israel is called the son of God and then Jesus might be surprising to a lot of your LDS listeners to know that Jesus wasn't even declared the son of God until he rose again in Romans one it says that he was declared to be the son Time because what happened is Psalm 89 and someone turned God says I will make you more firstborn son sonogram is a position of preeminence in the rightful ownership of the earth, one who is considered the son of God is the one who God has placed into the vice regent. His king under him over the earth exist as a king is really supposed to act like a king in the land of Canaan, and then expand to the ends of the earth, and they all fail in survey lost.rightful spot before God and above man until Jesus came and he died on the cross. Persons living a perfect life rose from the dead and then what is he saying at the end of Matthew all authority and earth has been given to me. She became that King under undergrad city speech. In his human nature is afterimages had two natures in one person distinct, but indivisible is fully God and fully man and as fully man. She ascended to the role of chamber essentially a regular that's what sending God actually means phone messages. We regret that.

So confused because we think of it in our terms and setting God's terms. Thank you both for your biblical response to my question. I really want to try to try to represent our latter-day same friends and how they might think about these things and that anyone mentions that I can of the obvious fact that I want seminary and you know, understanding that our relation ship positionally to God. As creatures who is really important and I think it's key to this understanding trying to tease out the differences between the way Latter Day Saints my view, covenants and Christians might be covenants because if I understand my relationship to God as as creature you know you said there is under no obligation to, but what he does in his faithfulness and his grace is because of who he is, not because of who I am and so I think that's really important to understand that you escape executor to the house also mention I mean along the lines of Paul standard Latter Day Saints to view every single person who's ever been born to be a child of God and like you said Darren you know that mechanic comes with a belief that God owes them something in that reason Latter Day Saints, don't believe that revising on how there was any notice some degree of heaven because why would a loving heavenly father sent his children to hell for eternity. So it doesn't I'm going full-circle. You know when you get that one belief wrong. It influences everything else so I'm really glad that we are touching that dives into also when lighted Latter Day Saints doctrines of redemption of the dead because so often Dell Dell say what God only gives grace to some by Disney offer grace to all know the response that is will God loves everyone equally because rose children so every single person without exception will have the opportunity to either accept the gospel here or in the spirit world, after they die and then we do the baptisms and confirmations for them in the temple so that everyone gets a fair shot enough like as if it again as if it's something that's due to a seven something the God owes us and it's so hard for them to hear the Bible and it says you know I will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.

I will show mercy and emotional mercy that is radically different from the LDS entire world. So that's, so I hope I'll buy Latter Day Saints garrison and know that that we love them and that were not trying to bully them or to you know make them feel like were so much smarter than they are. Where were trying to show the God of Scripture and how he has revealed himself and sometimes trees have to be hard sometimes. Sometimes we don't have all the easy answers to all these questions so we, but we just have to we have to place after trust what God has said about himself, rather than take the easy answer seems more comforting.

You were so prone to secure what we do seven parent and Internet were souls who drawn your LDS church sounds so much more log than the God that you just said because you would talk about Ralph and Helen treat Creator and creature, a father and son and it doesn't sound as long as if you were to consider rock. I just listen to macular attention analog and you have here a king whose loans of 10,000 talents which would be if you were to walk into court and you had a debt 3060 or hundred million dollars. We would expect the book to be flammable. If you are a bystander to that transaction, we would expect that person has no right or claim may be made to the advertisement. Justice needs to be done Brucey are now her inner political appointment with other side when we want justice to be know if the election was stolen, then we need to get those those traders and thieves out of there if he wasn't there when you get the other traders and thieves and we want just not parable this king who owns $100 million. Your over much of the zero inflation today. She forgives it doesn't even ask him to work.

It actually just forgives the debt they do not. Same since the accident is old in a few months worth of wages and he goes and he throttles that certain husband, Grace Truman, and Jesus times parable to show that if you have been have received grace but to change your heart to give.

But what that shows as well for us is that the God who would give eternal life to any warm ups once impact of grace seemed far beyond her comprehension.

If God merely gives grace to those who have done all that they can do and God is simply acting just accented gracious or trying to gather sister good judge if we've actually earned Grounds. We haven't kept our promises to effectively blacken them every single day, every moment of every day in the way we think, to do all and yet God needs to grant one of us to sit beside him in heaven. That is far beyond any measure of grace we have ever seen or known in this life and so it's important for us to understand that to realize that what might sound nicer is really has a bitter pill on the backend sounds hardship strand is full of life in grace and truth on the receipt.

If you were truly amen thank you and this great thing if I get any point it's been awesome stopping point enough like you leaving it living in a high plan of just gold gold all around great guy, so I think so.

Continue consumer discussion of the biblical covenants. We Artie mentioned the Abraham a covenant. We also mention the covenant of works, so from a broad perspective from your from your perspective because I assume the both of you will do some kind of reformat is covenant theology. So what covenants does God make in the scope of the Bible so if you can you can do chronologically enough you wino from beginning to and what kind of covenants does God make and not necessarily in-depth but just like in general, what Purpose do they serve you first about one going to be on the your explanation of the covenant of works and that it is phenomenal. Then we can get into that, like the specific ones and just give a brief description of each one. Yeah yeah yeah nice yeah what we see the way God relates to his creatures to his people is by means of covenant on so the way what God did in the garden. Is he creating a covenant with Adam where he said. There is unity are to be fruitful and multiply, take dominion, and if you obey thereunder not to eat such a positive command may be fruitful and multiply, take dominion in the negative command is. Do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good naval how we look at that exact see the word covenant anywhere in Genesis 1 and two, but what we do see is the promise of the Sabbath rest in Genesis 2, where there is this delighted contented and ceasing from work, but God demonstrates to his creature.

This is what it looks like when everything is perfect and good as the rest of God. And we also see the tree of life that if you were to take receipt of this after the fall in Genesis 3 verse 22 God says to another Adam's fall, and if you are taking this tree she would live forever, so what we understand. You have to have the word in Scripture. The concept to be present right so there's no word in Scripture and in Genesis 1 through 32 God made a covenant with Adam, but we see the promise of blessings for obedience and the promise of curses for disobedience. If you muted the tree you will surely die.

That's what we would call a lot. It's been called a number of different things for a covenant of creation plan that is most popular.

Other term for this is usually called the covenant of works when you talk a covenant of works because if Adam had had done what God said he would have earned an the right to eat from the tree of life and live forever with his mentor.

The only obligation God was under to give back was the obligation treat himself because he perceived himself promised you have to get I promise you did Adam have fulfilled. He would have earned that same speech that's really important because Adam is the only person ever lived on the face of the earth who actually could have earned his way to heaven. And so when he broke about, and eventually the knowledge of evil. You can do to and Jack came upon mankind physical death.

Later on, but spiritual death and separation immediately. At the time it happened, but Genesis 315 is the most important and precious verses in all Scripture because it did not verse, God makes a promise and you curses the serpent says the seed of the woman, the offspring of the woman will bruise your head and you shall bruise succeeding God in that moment made a promise of the Messiah to come and would set right what had happened at the fall document we call the covenant of grace of the promise of the covenant of grace to the works of the covenant of grace of these two overarching covenants throughout all Scripture and then we have what we call preservative payments and to see that when you get to know the very next covenant in Scripture, God makes a covenant with Noah saying despite your sinfulness. Despite the fact that every thought and intention of the heart of man is wicked all the time, which is a damning statement home. Despite that, I will not judge the earth again with water and will not wipe out all human life again and under said assignment this year to see my ball in the heavens, preservative covenant, God basically sang this and I made a promise to album any longer than the Messiah, so I can't I'm not going to lie about human conduct under preserve humankind, despite their said July would receive a boat a rainbow flag.

Pride parades of exec that she really pretty. Because God made a promise to wipe us out despite her sinful and you did not to preserve the long of the Messiah and we see another pregnant God made to Abraham and Mr. covenant has buccal physical aspect in a spiritual loss is going to be people that come from Abraham. This people is going to be the light of the Messiah and then God's people land and prospered making the nation give them kings to this people through the animal tumbled 12. He will bless all the families of the earth be blessed as a have this covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is repeated throughout God's preserving his people. When you see the old covenant, but what she was especially refers to as the old Craig and that's the covenant on cyanide of the Mosaic covenant word God is making a covenant with his people that he is redeemed.

So this is a people graduated made promises to through a graph. Now she's codifying Dr. Sanjay my people have expectations, you will obey my moral law and the negative valve is positive on his other extra Commandments, the ceremonial laws. Several Commandments enough to do that in order to obtain blossom in the old covenant.Mosaic covenant is kind of like the sound of what happened in the Garden of Eden to receive God's probably client history a little bit here is my people to be my son, is my first in Texas for details. Recall my son out of Egypt secures its covenant with Islam. If you obey. Do this and you will live the magnificent team that's the essence of the old covenant is the essence of the covenant of works do in life, but I didn't do X and considers all kinds of threats to the cup to the kingdom gardeners one more covenant narrowing the focus even more sick days from now Abraham had David here is this covenant of the king.

Who's gonna come you and David this came as gonna rain forever so he's going to be and do at another could do is to be a do what Israel never tried to he will obey and he will reign God preserves them through Jade off to Babylon to exile. Finally, Jesus, and in Jesus that promise that was made in Genesis 315 that promise that he made to Abraham that through Abraham would be the seed would come bring blessing upon the earth. Galatians 3 tells us that seed that promise to Abraham, but was a gospel I was the covenant of grace and God makes this promise of the covenant of grace to his prophets in Ezekiel and Jeremiah to give you a heart of stone redneck the tablets of stone on Mount Sinai is the law you can't forget down to give you a heart of flesh. And maybe him and bring you back to you be giving our spirit and revive you going to make you a new person from the inside out. And Jesus comes in the Galatians tells us he was born under the law to. He was born without he himself was without sin he took on the lawful arrest.

He took on the covenant.

It works for us and said there's only one person before Jupiter in heaven, but was Adam and he failed. But I am going to find into merit salvation that my perfection in life and on the night before he died he began he changes to his disciples and he offers and regular temperature union that home. He says this is the new covenant in my blood and then when he died on the cross. She she created he them wrapped into being the new government.

If you took that promise of grace in Genesis 215 and you've made it happen. He realized it in his broken body in his burial and his resurrection, and so after that there is no other covenants between God and man Jesus and self-fulfillment.

You are either in Adam Brandon's five cents or you or any placed there to federally heavens to covenant heads and Richard and Adam knew Siegler out and earned his death.

But if you are in Christ will receive Christ. That's eternal life. And so that's that's the essence of covenant theology types of covenants receive and how does holds the whole Bible together. Management review is so when you look at covenants throughout the Bible, and yet you look at each one.

There like Darren said that it's not always as explicit as when he was talking with Abraham versus I'm making a covenant with you or with Noah when he says in making a covenant with you. You can see different elements of a covenant right there. The conditions of the of the covenant here the conditions then there is the sign of the covenant right with Noah.

It was the rainbow there was with Abraham.

There were circumcision right and then there were the rewards of the covenant right. These these things that came. If you do these things.

This is what will happen right cc these different elements and so even if it isn't called. Here's the covenant right. Like David, it was very explicit rate him and he says I'm making a covenant with you and your offspring is going to be on the throne forever and see. Look for those different elements throughout. Throw out what the Bible talks about. That's absolutely great.

And then thank you so much for that. That's pretty much the entire semester's worth of covenant theology probably get a seminary just condensed in about 10 minutes is just perfect death. Thank you very much apologizing that just that I'm about 60 pages in to the book and I feel like maybe I don't need to regress now or 80s cover is not Glover's book that's 00 Palmer Robertson (out of love that he was ever beautiful you think you so much yeah I agree that it's important to point out that the aspects is a lot of people especially, even Calvinistic Baptists that have an issue with this idea of the covenant of works but there's a great book. Also by by Richard Marcellos getting the garden right when I started studying covenant theology read a book and not just blew my mind. I never anything like that before any point set out.

He goes to the confession enter the Bible to show that yes exactly what menacing even if the work covenant is not use their all the parts of the covenant in with Adam in the garden. Are there with no with Abraham. Is David there out there all their so you can you don't have to call the covenant of works and call whatever you want, but it was a covenant that God made with Adam in the garden that he broke and because of that, where we all fallen and I just noticed explain a beautifully thank you very much on knowing a go at gun point noted climbing to.

I would recommend trying to read was very motion you really until like pain is difficult to go to the people that have a lot to still debate with their temperature important and redid my brother Majesty were getting brilliant in the fullness of my theology would be denied the covenant of works on the front-end.

We will always bring it back saying this is very important for us as Christians because when we talk about the covenant worship Adam and a covenant with Jesus. We talked about to go to big theological challenges that active righteousness of Christ and the passive righteousness of Christ. The active righteousness of Christ is where Jesus himself fully obeyed all the law perfectly and perpetually for us in the passive righteousness is your key humbly received passively the punishment that we deserved so without both of those tree we salvation to depend on us so for 10 Corinthians 521 says of God, made Christ, who knew no sin to become sin in our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God right so we receive God's righteousness, indigent penalty, which is double amputation that Martin Luther talked about the great exchange when we did when we fail to acknowledge or believe that we see earned merited favor from Jesus for another way to put it is we are saved by works just not ours was saved by Jesus is when we fail to believe that they were always going to believe that it depends on set some level on archiving as long as I maintain my faithfulness before God.

Then I made it out and glory at the end that Jesus did on the front end regulation pop controversy right there were saved by faith protected by works and policies. No maxima may never be.

We are saved by faith protected by the Spirit through faith alone.

The whole way through. All are all we do is Christian as you look to the finished work of Jesus received that outing we can obeyed and followed Dan imperfectly emplaced is always perfect because he respected and so that's about covenant works when you call it is so important to Christianity and when we lose it we always end up with some kind of legalism on the backend system. However, this contrast unlike Jesus went out of this mess will you measure we were all born and raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, commonly referred to as the Mormon faith. All of us have left that religion and have been drawn to faith in Jesus Christ. Basin teaching the name of our podcast brightness reflects John 19 calls Jesus, the true light which gives light to everyone you found life beyond Mormonism brighter than we were told in the light, we have is not our own. Thus, our brightness purpose is to share our journeys of faith God has done in drawing us to his son to have conversations about all aspects of the transition fears, challenges, joys, and everything in between. Glad you found us and we hope you'll stick around and ask a quick question so I was under the impression that these two covenants were enforced the same time I don't know? No, but soon James Everett Julio talks about Abraham, he believed God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness.

So was he justified the same way that it we are on me was a covenant enforced manner. How does that work in the Old Testament that is a fantastic question and one are no talking with some of my other former LBS plans as well as very it really makes it such a foundational question against time tells us that although she was seated in the Old Testament were saved by looking to the rock who is to come back and apart from faith and apart from the working of the Spirit in the hearts of men. In Romans eight and Hebrews 11 it's impossible to please God. If a face-off is what pleases God right and so they didn't know who Jesus was and from that very first moment after the fall. They knew that there would be in the slot and that is that you can see a developed theology with can enable related knew that sacrifice is needed to be right with God and that he wasn't the type of sacrifice, but rather the heart behind the sacrifice those important and so the covenant of grace which promised and this is where this gets into what type of covenant theology to be believed is Presbyterians and reform doctors within the city very similar and very different things. At this point, right right reform buddies were my identity. My tradition is that defendant versus promise in Genesis 315 and every single person who has ever been saved since then.

Until Jesus comes again is saved through the promise of the covenant of grace that was realized and enacted by Christ. Now that are Presbyterian bankers would say that that promise was the covenant of grace. Check the covenant of grace existed in its fullness and then just under different administration, but even though we differ on our understanding of how those covenants work out will both sing the same thing about salvation. The only way that anybody was ever said was that they were looking forward to Dr. to Christ and what she would do on our behalf yet.

And a lot of times the covenant swing are a Colossians talks about the mystery that is revealed right, not that it's like Sherlock Holmes were trying to figure things out.

It's a mystery in that it is it is slowly revealed over time. So yes, it is something where we look back and say you know Abraham had a very short period of history to look back on right he still ensured you note new Genesis 315 that the covenant of God of grace and God he sacrifice to God and in the he demonstrated faith in God. Of course, but you see that mystery is slowly revealed right you look at the Passover. That mystery was partially revealed again in these kind of types that you can look back to and they understood them as something greater was to come. David when he received the covenant that God made with him he didn't look and say wow this is great Solomons can be on the throne. She looked and said the second part of the Trinity. Jesus is going to be on the throne, the son of God is going to be on the throne.

I believe David knew that and David understood that not as fully as we understand today but I don't think he was so for example, only Eve had her first son after the promise rate. Genesis 315.

Some would say.

She said hey Seth is been born, God is giving me a son what she was saying was God's given me the offspring that is going to crush the head of Satan. She believed the Messiah had come. While he didn't write because he died and he didn't fulfill the law so the they have this forward in in in Jewish history, they would pass things down and how they would speak things and so they would. These covenants work were talked about in this history was talked about in the grace and in Genesis 316 was passed down so they understood what was promised and then of course you know people during Jesus time had forgotten about what the covenants really pictured. They thought the Messiah was coming in a very physical sense. They were looking for a Savior like one of the judges are like David the king that they they revered. They wanted a physical Messiah, and eradicate the Romans and that's why they rejected Jesus so bad and they do really to this day because the Messiah isn't killed.

Messiah conquers and so that's why they rejected him and that day and that's why they rejected him.

You know even even still today. I know that's not LBS necessarily but does listen to one of your sermons on the on the website was a public tale of two Kings referencing that prophecy about how the serpent would bruise his heel that he would crush his head, and I can see you. The fact that what you just said about the Messiah and dying him in the deathblow supposed to be dealt to the serpent and so is going to get the things I can see it appearing that that wasn't the fulfillment of the prophecy, but actually it definitely was the fulfillment of the prophecies.

The 10 interesting how that works out. Sometimes I mentioned to like going back to the original question Michael that the reason why we can why Paul could quote Dennis is 15 in the book of Romans for the doctor justification for people not day was specifically because there say the same way. In Paul's time as Abraham was saved.

Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

So if we took this idea that the Jews were saved in some other way than they were in the time of Paul. He couldn't be able to quote Abraham is the prototype for how we are saying. So it's the same covenant of grace since enough since Adam and Eve were were left the garden, you know, they're often a covenant of grace. Ever since then.

You know what that would like you said, Genesis 3 when that laptop proclamation is made. It's the same way of salvation. Sorry, policy, government leaders can say something so I mentioned on Sunday as well you know we talk about Israel and I think a lot of times people get caught up in this idea because it is a people group they call them the Jews. They say anybody who was born a Jew.

They were they were Israel right. Paul very clearly says not everybody who is of Israel is Israel wouldn't be very inconsistent of God to say, in the Old Testament listen as long as you were born and you have the proper bloodline. Your good now you have to believe in the F did you know this is how you do it would be very inconsistent. So something that was very helpful for me in making this distinction as I was studying is just calling them from the beat from Genesis till now in Genesis to Revelation is calling them God's people. We will even walk into well that the Bible talks well not specifically the vital wheat we think of the invisible church right if I walk by someone and I don't know they're a Christian. It doesn't make them not part of the church right there is the visible church, there's the invisible church when you walk into a church as well. There are, you know, the Bible refers to sheepskin sheep in wolves right and not all of Israel is Israel. And so we look at that and say there are God's people from the beginning, and there are God's people through the end of history and that in that distinction really helped me understand it because even if you think of Ruth right think of Rahab you think of all these people that should never have made it into the Bible and have spots in the genealogy comes back to what you know the song about writing LBS topic. What makes you part of God's people from an LBS perspective and maybe I'm overstepping restricted fencing by making and keeping covenant you are proving that you are God's people, but with God.

What makes you, God's people is that you have been saved by grace through faith.

You have been justified by heaven and God submits to God's people know it's it's job is John no one units not by rote manner by the flushing by the will of God. And so we do something that makes us God's people. God is the one who declares over us and recently received by faith that we are.

That's what makes us God's people beautiful exactly. I think that's how all this would say LOL this might push back and say well, God offers the conditions of the covenant first and then we can make that counter with him as I think that's kinda how they would they might explain that but yet but you had God not only offers a covenant he makes a covenant right.

It's not that the Jesse he puts the ball from the table and then you have to sign at the bottom.

EE writes it up and sign the himself so we talked a lot about the covenants that the Bible we've also I you because I already asked answer the question later.

It sounds like I know the Darren. We talked about how you hold to 1689 federalism rate and submenu. It also agreed that since we got we got 369 antifederalists on the board and filling. I feel like I'm home verify anything for people who might be listening, who don't understand that. So the idea of Adam, correct me if I'm wrong.

The idea of Adam in being that federal head that past sin down to everybody in Adam by one man sin entered into the world.

We were all different here right we probably all have different eye color, hair color, you know, height, and we all get those those characteristics from her parents.

One characteristics that one characteristic that we get from our parents that all of us will get her parents that will past were children is the sin and that's that's federalism role is the Latin word to use and agreed with the covenant same used academic federal head or federalism bridges Latin eyes and covenantal head cover mentalism and you'll receive us in United States. We have a federal government that was established by 50 states covenant and together we will have one government and that in the Bible. Have you know all of Pollan's offspring coming together saying we have one had present a problem with drugs. The one who says there's a covenant I'm making a covenant with Adam.

Adam was created perfect holy and righteous, and so she was the perfect representative for all mankind home as a user federal head in that sense he stands or covenant head if he keeps a covenant everybody gets the blessing the if he fails, a covenant everybody gets curses of that we might think That's all about software. I however should I get what Adam got matrixes if I only finally I had been there and said Adam had everything we do have a similar nature, yet he failed. We received from him because he stood in her place and were believer in Christ, we should have no problem with this at all, because we also received from somebody else who stood helpless in those salvation in Christ and that's again. Romans five the sink.

She is whole understanding of federal head federalism and you get out and got in Christ, you get more Christ.101 amazing promise registered vendor effusions wanted to, you know you've been blessed of all the blessings in heavenly peace of the God, being rich in mercy longs to lavish upon us the riches of his kindness and grace. Why is Jesus and that he caressed just as much as Adam earned death threats that were it.

It's an amazing race, amazing grace, that we get something here and ask a question that some of the same listeners might have and I want to make sure I'm not understanding her misunderstanding as well. So because Jesus the second Adam right and in need.

You said that if Adam had kept the covenant of works, then everyone would have benefited from that and because he disobeyed everyone received the cursing that she brought upon herself by dissolute disobedience. Were talking about Jesus. Jesus perfectly kept the covenant right perfectly.

Did and carried out that the work that the father given them to do. But not everyone receives that benefit so it almost sounds like what were saying is that Adam keeping the covenant would've been superior to Christ keeping the covenant so can you.

Can you touch on that for us because I think it's a question that the latter-day Saints might have injected with student is Jesus keeping the actually obtained everything corporate gangs who are in Christ Jesus accomplished these the same as what Adam was offered and not obedience merits eternal life, and so to say that Adam would have gotten it would've been better if Adam had done this dots will be at that point we fall on the secret of the mysterious wisdom of God word doc told us in Deuteronomy about what is revealed belongs to us what his Secret belongs to him. So oftentimes we get to this point, we wonder why why did God allow you know and one of the things that this is where you, the question of free will often gets brought up and things like that and I went out to do. Tribbett God offered. He could have made Ottoman tonics on absolutely no choice but to us getting back to an but she didn't because God wanted.covenant to be freely And ultimately earned if Adam had no ability to to fail when she didn't really. There wouldn't have anything to earn because there is no possibility of failure and nonsense and so I got free will, so to speak, that we have a section of free will is based on contingency. We are contingent creatures and so ours. Our concept of free will is always undergirded by the ultimate solvent free will of God.

Truthfully being added was free with in the convert the constraints of his preaching. He could have obeyed. You could have disobeyed God allowed him to disobey the only reasonable given is because it pleased God to reveal the glory of both his justice and his mercy, and in Adam falling seven is God's justice toward sin is displayed in God's glory towards the good and his mercy is displayed towards those who said that some stupid creature to be extremely unfair that sound that's why we would segment Adam really was combative and juicy. Brenda for everybody. But that's because we don't see things from a God centered view. We don't value the glory of God the way God values the glory of God into God's revealed some of it and he asks us to receive that by faith and trust in the God being all wise, all going on the all-powerful has done what is right in the God of all righteousness.Abrahamson's been talking about the destruction of Sodom will you destroy the righteous with the unrighteous for the God of all righteousness. Do what is evil. The amount and God is.

No, God is the God of all righteousness will never do what is beautiful, but he hasn't.

I owe it to us to tell us about what he's done and bags chase a similar rabbit trail little bit on your question was Adam did have the opportunity to do more than what Jesus did and then Paul would say in Romans five emphatically actually not because it's it's all related to human is your covenant head Adam didn't obtain the blossom and so we don't operate Dragon operate on hypotheticals. There is a view of God called Molinos in the middle knowledge of the job just kind of sees with the best possible way forward bend and picks up half and the guide is not depending on what we do.

God determines often mentioned God. Adam failed, but Jesus exceeded that makes Jesus infinitely greater than the medicine in the covenant that she infinitely greater than the covenant on fail because Jesus actually did what was she was commanded to do.

Consider, click start and Amanda went on, not actually answer the question, but I hope it's helpful scared and then I want to cut a step back and remind our listeners that that question comes from a place of again the assumption that we deserve salvation and so when you start talking about well known. The LDS view looks better because everyone is saved to a kingdom of glory you stepping away from the view that where God is sovereign and where we have to say. Ultimately, regardless of how many of his creatures. God chooses to save God is worthy of our worship and that's a realization that for a latter-day say is tough to come to an eye, but is a realization that is necessary for understanding who God is and who you are in relation to him so that I appreciate the answer just want to try to tease out some things that latter-day Saints might be thinking. Is there listening great questions so one of the kind of talk a little bit about why there are so many different covenant theological systems, you know, why do when you when you look at Lutheran say they kinda focus more on the log gospel distinction don't really have no like a super indeed detailed robust covenant theology like that came later, the reformers is also dispensationalism has that the seven different dispensations are time there is a reform pedal Baptist covenant theology that we had mentioned their 1689 federalism money and there is also even a different kind of subtly different reform Baptist covenant theology there so many different ways to look at all the covenants, why why are there so many systems.

Why is it so difficult to tie everything together. Why, why didn't God just saying this is the current Delta system that you need to believe the lie to me.

Just make it absolutely clear in a little eloquence question because latter-day Saints will say well if God made so clear in the Bible. Why don't you all agree on the same thing right now. I wanted asses was and I think that's a fair question.

Every time we come to a biblical truth right theological point, there is always the danger of reading into the Bible.

What are either preconceived ideas or our theological structures will tell us, rather than staying in its it is very hard to say well just let the Bible speak for itself right because we all come with preconceived ideas right and so there are I would say from the outset.

That is the very basic reason, so we will either swing one way to know if if Lutherans you know say is this because and then they go into their history of. Here's the reason why we focus on this and it comes from a lot of these things from our past right and what Luther taught and what what you these teachings and then the teaching in their church until that point, or we swing over the other direction say well we overemphasize these things it with the lack of other things right dispensations. That was a note in a school of thought that came in out and started in in that person had a lot of influence rightly. They had their own seminary and so of course there's can be a lot of people who follow after that and that dispensational thinking. The question of why Lake there. There's all sorts of different differences. It would be great if we all just reunified like we all had the same thing right in and I and I agree with that but the important thing to remember about the distinction between public Lutherans and Presbyterians and Baptist reform Baptist in this kind of Baptist.

The other kind. What we do all agree on is salvation by faith alone, by grace alone in Christ alone, and if we were differing in those types of things. I think the it the modes of salvation. If someone says no you have to be saved through this that or the other and we would in the church historically has said no, you're a heretic right that is wrong. All the church agrees with that.

If someone comes in and says no, Jesus isn't God that the historic church and the Bible says you're a heretic right. They've agreed on that from the very beginning right if someone denies the Trinity or someone you know denies very basic things about what the Bible teaches. They declare that hurt those people, heretic, and they've done that resoundingly when we get to these types of things I would say again, these are gray areas, but like listen will get together it. You know Darren and I both have preached at a Presbyterian Church right they were searching for passing the never pastor for a long time. We would happily preach there. Why because they believe the gospel would we love for them to understand covenant theology and reformed theology in Lake walk lockstep with us.

Yes, that would be great, but the important thing is they get the gospel right and I am sure there's there's deeper ways of looking at that and why there are differences in there's a lot of different reasons why you know when I look at that's that's what I I understand. I hope it doesn't trip up our LDS friends who know say why are there so many denominations well there are those denominations, but we all agree that the Bible is the word of God is inspired. It doesn't need to be added to, it should not be taken away from. We believe in salvation by grace and by faith alone and grace alone through Christ alone like we agree on the major things and those little things. Although it changes the name of the building. It won't change your eternal destiny. It comes down to media pinions, the mediator between God and the mediator was the Bible tells us his close down each believer is responsible before God for what they believe. If power with the mediator is church, hope, and institution tradition that institution person poke rubber tips to determine what everybody else. And so liquid brought celeb #we have. We do have unity because the themes told us the church is built upon the foundation laid first by the prophets and apostles emulator in Ephesians 4 says we have one more one baptism, one faith to him of baptism in Christ, we have a very unified set of beliefs when it comes to the essentials. In fact, I'm going to go to Friendly's, planting a church in Decatur Illinois and I've been on the accountability board with him to guide his leaderless accountability board. The kitchen plantings reform Baptist looks like ours became the pastor of his closest boats leaving this kind of early birds of Luther gently joined together in a common cause because we have a common view of salvation and that we have churches in the area around us that we would disagree with that. Vocally about some some secondary issues yet broadly know they were on the secular noncompetition because the others that while these differences, there's a unity that the reason why these differences is because each individual believer is responsible before God for how they can description what they understand from Scripture. I'm reminded of the proverb says it's the glory of God to hide knowledge makes a glory or tends to seek about. There is a type of glory Viacom's daughter Susan. We immerse ourselves in Scripture and seek to know and understand more more previews and there's a growth process for us as we come to know more and more confused and like Paul put away childish things will become more mature American computer and appeals to this in Philippians that those of you who are mature. This would benefit if you disagree God will show him so. Paul even anticipates that on some of these matters of doctrine is going to be disagreement. As long as it's not over the essential moms.and then after that diversionary action are different views of covenant theology particular dispensational theology of the law. I just comes down to a liquid pro bono sciences study accompanied the study of how do we study Scripture.

How do we understand Scripture and Julie allow the Old Testament to be primarily on the New Testament train trip with the DO the always different systems that we used to study and interpret Scripture which should come out of Scripture itself hopefully were along Scripture to interpret Scripture, for preconceived notions and theologies and ideas, but we have to always let Scripture judge those theologies judge those ideas judge them systems and see if it hold to be true so presents dispensationalism notice there's a ton of different kinds dispensationalism so will refer to the original late 1800s and early 1900s version of dispensationalism actually believed that Old Testament saints were saved by keeping the law. That's that's actually denial of she Central Christian doctrine and so we wrote about drug that is un-biblical. Even heretical system for understanding Scripture and now that system is changed so you have somebody like MacArthur was a concerns of dispensationalism, but she doesn't believe that the adjustments interested through the law without because they are saved by grace through faith and hold to this consistent unified belief in the method of salvation, but we have differences in how we understand Scripture because he, Scripture underlies and I think Darren touched on a couple things I think that's important.

There are primary things in their secondary things right primary things you know Scripture being the word of God. Jesus being God. Jesus is the only way of salvation and of those types of things as primary issues and their secondary issues right what type of music the Evan church know that I would put you know that the type of eschatology that you believe in right leg. There a lot of different things that we need to be gracious with people on it. It's very hard right when we would like everybody just to believe that the right thing because, of course, what I believe. I mean it. It's biblical. It's in the Bible delighted people believe it right and they would say well it's in the Bible, then why don't you believe what I believe but others prime in that's that's what I love so much on the primary things we celebrate we get together we pray you know and and and and we love it.

But on the secondary things we can bicker back and forth we can poke each other we can laugh at each other and have fun with it right, don't take those two seriously. Nobody's excommunicating over those things in it and in a few do, you probably shouldn't ethic.

Thank you for that. I really appreciate how you you both address it. The concept of there is still unity in the faith, even despite our differences, and I don't know Sen., but I've heard about. Thankfully, by the grace of God. Denominational lines done extended heaven will know it will no longer be separated by those church walls are those church signs will all be one church of Christ and and them. I also think you also for addressing the idea that it also depends on the hermeneutical method, and how we interpret Scripture, and I think everybody wants to come at the Bible and interpret it correctly and consistently, because we love God we love, truth, maybe this is so we had an episode with Jeremy Howard Hughes at Orchard Hills Bible church in Utah Valley and he submitted it, question may be the be interesting to take. I get your guy's perspective on it is reposted in our Facebook or quote if the prophets of the Old Testament weren't actually giving national Israel a promise of future restoration did they know it." So when I got out as he was trying to ask about 10 of like literal fulfillment of prophecy of the restoration of Israel versus typological that's kinda what I got out of a bullet, what, what's your guy's perspective on how adjustment I would say yes no intend of yes, in the sense of your first or second Peter talks about a second. They knew the things that they were prophesying, were not necessarily for the big knew that there was going to be a leader fulfillment and that it was a mysterious fulfillment when it was shrouded in this mystery, but I would also say in the sense of road near the court with the person being actually gained national Israel promise of future restoration neurotically misses the investigator a secondary issue right because what unnecessary sent people would probably vary as to any significant say about we make an error when we assume that the spiritual fulfillment. What we return spiritual fulfillment isn't literal. We usually use that as our hermeneutic right will I know I'm literal of a literalist dragnet a promise to Abraham to give Timberland and he walked to the land from North to South and God promised that he would restore Israel to combat land.

There has to be a future restoration for people of Israel and submitted to be eligible is rather than things go along with it.

Physical fulfillment is not necessarily literal fulfillment. God himself is spirit. The physical is not the ultimate God himself being spirit reveals to us at the spiritual is his preeminent elements of spiritual fulfillment is a literal fulfillment is just a fulfillment way.

We didn't expect on GK Peter Beale puts it in his New Testament biblical theology. He compares it to imagination the early 19th or 20th century were imagine hundreds of father promised sees a horse-drawn buggy and he tells is still five-year-old son was near 21 unit on the house rudderless. I'm going to buy you a horse and buggy he promises access to the best mode of transportation that his son commuting considerable wealth. 15 years down the road.

Henry Ford comes along and you have the automobile and if you received yellow house and automobiles sending a look back and say that you promised me a horse and buggy to come to harm you promised to get something better has come along that fulfills what I thought it would be fading away grander method way that that could have even conceived of 50 music and I think that thoughts personally, I think that that's the right way to understand the Scriptures say that when the new covenant. Jeremiah 31 Ezekiel 36 says I will restore Israel.

I will gather Israel back to me. We actually see that happen next to we see and asked him is very careful in its language that says that all Israel about Israel from all over the every corner of the world is gathered at Pentecost the gospel, God gathered national people became. He also tells us in Romans 11 that is, those of faith. Alexander saying earlier and so God did fulfill his promise by bringing in the Gentiles, making them true Israel and also then asked to bring in this eschatological fulfillment of all these promises in the restoration of a new people that the book of Matthew which I didn't get to push through on Sunday mornings. You see, Mackie said about Jesus is in Israel and the 12 disciples as the new 12 trot and you see this this type antitype in Scripture Hermeneutical method of typing antitype where the type is a shot of the antitype in the fulfillment is always greater and bigger than what the shadow of pension.

Some people look at that and it's okay. But believers disagree with me on this issue. The segment of the secondary issue that we can disagree her that I think when we make the Bible too much about those that have a one-to-one physical correspondence. I think you missed some of the glandular beauty and glory of God has given them a spiritual Hebrews 12 we have come to the kingdom which cannot be touched so much greater than some good new Jerusalem in Revelation 21 is the bride of Christ church descending coming to Jesus and being united to Jesus referring to Thursday. Future Horatio Bender again and she conveys a future literal thousand year robots. That's biblical orthodoxy way of working through that and I just indicate it's less gambling games promised in church and marrying reading this agreement wanted Mark and I enjoy a lot of unity and write lots of books about 11 sums it up this way and are talking about Abraham.

He said the Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

He said these all died in faith, not receiving the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, so they were looking like they receive these promises having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth, so they knew it was more different than a physical land for people who spoke, and thus make it clear that they were seeking a homeland if they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have an opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city and people might say, well, that was Abraham you know he fulfilled it while he goes through all these people. Jacob and Esau, Joseph, Moses, all these people in the very last two verses and in Hebrews chapter 11 he says this and all these talking about the people though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised.

Since God had provided something better like terms talking about for us that apart from us.

They should not be made perfect right so I think we take that first passage that was spoken. Abraham I don't think even Israel thought of like the sand.

This physical portion of land. I think they were longing for that homeland that was beyond her that was in heaven. Yeah it's it it's why Salome 1689, Federalist rights to talk about Bob Bland of covenant theology and not Bland of children theology believes that the promise given to Abraham continued spiritual and a physical prompt is a physical promise of land and descendents in a nation and what's amazing to me is Joshua actually tells us about physical promise was fulfilled under Joshua 2145. It says that all of the promises God made to their forefathers.

She fulfilled not one of them failed. All of them came to pass.

It's a categorical statement that God makes them so when when Israel conquered the land, they were actually fulfilling the physical preservative promise that God covenanted to it. But there is a spiritual promise. Underlying all about Steve would come to a blessed quality or it would be a national blessing to be a global blessing entered come through faith, the faith of Abraham had before for the promises of circumcision and covenant faithfulness to Genesis 1722 came about, so that dual nature of the Abraham covenant I think is is so cute. Understanding what was going on in the Old Testament there was a lot of physical things that were shadows pointing forward to ultimate reality that ultimate reality is fulfilled in Christ. And that's why covenant theology you why what really change for me growing up as a Christian Christian home grew up believing in a dispensational mortgage dispensational branch of belief system but when I attempt Scripture. I didn't see Christ in the Old Testament without understand what all those laws were body set goals for them. That was one of the key things that that capital theology lost for me. In my experience of it.

Does it help me see it all from beginning to Genesis to Revelation. It's all about Jesus and whether to shadow or the substance of a big promise or the fulfillment Jesus is at the center of all and and not really shaped and based why I love covenant theology and what I figured so helpful to us as believers to see that structure because it really points us to Jesus and the gospel over and over and over man thank you so much and you know it's it's funny because as both of your answering an answer, probably three or four. My questions that I submitted to you guys so not enough. You're consciously thinking about that Arvid just worked out that way, but one of our listeners.

Andrew Mills asked what's the one. Why did wire come it's so important to Christians.

Why is it so important understand covenants and I think you nailed it right there during a lease for me also when I came out of Mormonism you know it's very difficult because what you keep what I throw away in all was everything I learned as a Mormon, wrong, or is some of it okay and I and I had to cannot reach up to deconstruct what we presume are taught what we believe and so that was part of it covenants how does it all work out. And as I started studying and I was introduced to reformed theology through James White's debates.

His program and I was attending simultaneously reformed Baptist church and an OPC church.

I really wanted to give Presbyterianism a fair shake in our we talked about in previous episodes where the book of Mormon Courtney from Ron Michael year, the year the book of Mormon master, but is there something along the lines of all those who believe that an infant has a need of baptism, remission of sins even has the thought of it is condemned to hell something on those lines. Very Michael you very close if you should die while in the thought. You will go straight to hell yeah so so you know when I found out that some Christians baptize infants.

I was like okay I don't want to let my bias affect me in my theology I want to come to the Bible and I want to know what God teaches and also I was studying covenant theology is sitting there form Pinot Baptist covenant theology reformat discounted theology and I actually wanted to show out a few books related to current theology I don't have the English version actually this is the French version, Pascal does look great aunt.

I forget what is called a particular Baptist covenant theology is most of 17th century and particular Baptist Baptist covenant theology because his thesis, but let's that's what I love about the French version because a semi mission in France. I wanted to get through it. I read it in English. Still hidden in entirety the book in English because again it's here the French Virgin Mary that eventually I gave my English copy. My pastor set/of this one, but that's why I like this version is a lot smaller and basically just relates to a better covenant or more excellent covenant so that's a lot shorter to explain, but I just love the way he just tore down and and show exactly what you guys up in teaching and when I studied out the current theology as I see the merits of the reform Pinot Baptist covenant theology, but just the way he connects all the covenants together especially in all the culminating of the Sinai Sinai to covenant the cutting of the county given to Moses and how it's not the same substance as the covenant of grace that it's it's like you said it's a shadow of the covenant of works in an given to Adam in the garden in a do this and live is the kind of the motto of the Sinai covenant. It just made sense to manage so I think for me that's that's for the that's where covenant theology matters is there's practical implications. It's not just some kind of esoteric subject that you know that we can kind of like you know examine our navels all day and be like all that's interesting. That's cool. I think it does have practical applications like you're saying Darren. It points us to Jesus.

It shows us that beginning to end Genesis to Revelation is not just a mishmash of things happening one after the other. God had a plan and he is working it out in this progressive revelation progressive covenants that he made with Israel that that all were fulfilled in Christ, and point to Christ and suffer me that that's that's why it's important to me is is is a really helped me to understand Eric come to my position as enough to hold to the 16 and on Baptist confession because I believe that that that it's not infallible, but I believe that that confession. It describes biblical theology and condenses it in professional form is most consistent with what Scripture teaches and we love like we like we said we love our is between brothers and those of different views we just differ in a based on how we understand Scripture something to happen to me to get into covenant theology and back to state: theology. It actually really made me appreciate my Presbyterian brothers and sisters in a way I had before. I used to think those guys back baby. My boss just a holdover from Catholicism just to give up because the tradition of delegates there distribute a map and love them but that there is a and the more I get into Bob.theology realizing that after coming to this plan. There their genuine believe what the Bible says and I actually agree with them on a lot of points so really help me appreciate how rigorous and understand Scripture and how it comes to that practical application, but it also drove me to different practical application is understood the covenants with what I think is a more biblical way I receive a disagreement rebate. That's why on a Baptist now is because of my understanding of the covenant that only based. Note that the members of the church are not people believed and the children, but only those who believe in God changes how you view how church should be structural ecclesiology on Benson that covenant theology like a census tight little package. They might feel really big because it expands the whole Bible that it is kind of condenses biblical theology about how the Bible progresses in its revelation of truth in systematic theology everything the Bible says in the specific topic of truth brings both of those disciplines together in one arena in Uganda get to see a lot of practical workings for people.

It's okay.

I want to touch on are not atlases clusters will end his question to see. He also really want to know is how does covenant relate to obedient and I think I can a lot back to a lot of where you value the LDS people come from the regard next covenant with us. We respond with covenants to God. We are back into covenant seems like from an LDS perspective to be a foundation for our obedience to God's faithfulness to God and say how does covenant for the Christian perspective related to our obedience and this is another key area were covenant theology has an immense practical application to life because if we are saved under the covenant of works than it is if we do not obey regard.

If you are saved under the covenant of grace than the covenant of works is no longer the law does have to be obeyed anymore for salvation.

All that we do now instead of trying to calm salvation we now obey Christ so all of our obedience of the Heidelberg and the Orthodox are Baptist catechisms highlight that all of our obedience to God even as stated individuals is tainted with some measures because sin still the old man still clings so closely, and say no active obedience as pure as we could imagine their personal will after sufficed for the perfect command of God, that in Christ. It is reckons as being a righteous aunt not because we didn't because Christ fulfilled all but shall be no longer obey for salvation, but we obey because were set. In fact, our relationship to the law has changed so the law still existed. Still an abiding commandment for us, not throw out the law of God, but he no longer has the power to condemn and no longer that is looked at as being what is meritorious for us, or condemning to us and it's been fulfilled and so now we are three in Christ to follow him imperfectly progressively faltering, and to sleep to honor and obey because we believe in your heart and so hostile to mantis note this is what love your neighbor looks like it works at the Bangor parents not murder, not committing adultery not still not coveting nothing potentially huge. Yes the second table of the law.

Love fulfills the law will Jesus fulfill this gorgeous man who commands us to love and as we love one another we are actually obeying the commandments of God. Roman Gators drilling and an amazing capacity since were no longer condemned rescheduling Christ and what we could no longer do within the law because of the weakness of human flesh. God did write beautiful amazing bomb of the verse. What we can do.

God did this for follows up so that we might fulfill the law in Christ. So we no longer have to obey it to perfection. Jesus fulfilled before in Christ as we live out that love for neighbor mostly God we obey the commands because he did not yet in and I think in summary, it's it's helpful as well to think of it in the idea of identity. I think there are certain belief structures that people are striving for a certain identity right. I want people to know that I'm this way so I do these things right in order to fulfill this covenant, I need to do these things and it all boils down to the things that I do I'm striving for an identity right whereas, as Christians believing what the Bible says we live from an identity. We are children of God and because of that identity. We live differently, not in order to grab at an identity and try to be a certain thing. We are changed the right career for strength instead of 517. We are new creations.

We are new creatures. Old things are passing away behold all things, and sorry old things have passed away behold all things are becoming new rates. We are that our identity has changed, and so we live from that identity that's that's great. Think of a fair responses.

This is a quick side note, I want to be respectful of your time is okay if ask one question and then we wrap up very, very got overtime. I don't want to get you guys up is grass. So now I'm 11 80 Michael, if you're if you're starting to nod off a note door, you can log off and then you know what I want I want I will judge you, not even at the turn of your damn roses and I don't I know you get tired and I are your euros of really dismissive of messing with you not know seriously as a minimal edges and as I really love this discussion him. It's like were sitting under preaching right now and I was just as awesome. I'm really glad we got you guys on the program. Ides want to ask one more question is can a more practical thing and it came from a personal place because as latter-day St. I like like you were just finishing bent my identity was wrapped up in what the LDS church. Tommy, I was a child of God. I was a priesthood holder.

I was an elder and in the Latter Day Saints church. I held the Melchizedek priesthood I made covenants with God to which I would be held accountable. That's who I was, you know that's kind of my sense of identity. And so this is something that's very near and dear to many Latter Day Saints hearts. They believe that they've made covenants with God in baptism, missing the priesthood of the temple ordinances and in their marriage and so when we preach the gospel to them and we say that those covenants are not valid or you know that worst were trying to shed in the gospel to embrace it. There being asked to reject what they consider as part of their identity, resting them to basically change their lives forever asking them to reject what they feel God had given to them.

So it's a very sensitive topic I think is on it's something that you not supposed latter-day St. NL Christian is something I forget sometimes you know it's easy for me to forget that we are asking them to believe in Jesus and basically reject most of that identity that they've grown up with their whole lives.

So how do you think we should approach sharing the gospel with them. With this in mind knowing that their covenants are so important to them and were basically telling them know those really aren't important.

In a sense I would we go about doing that would like to share her spent and obviously have to be very sensitive in how you do that right mean you can drop bombs on people all day and they'll never know reject Jesus because of your approach rights and that's important how would I do it I would emphasize freedom and what I mean by that is most of the LDS that I meet. Do not feel free they are burdened with all the things that they must continue to do to reach whatever level of heaven write the highest level of course is the goal right there striving their burning in their note is this enough in my giving enough. You know maybe I don't see the blessings that I see in my life that I think I should see him trying to be obedient and it's driving them crazy because like where do I need to do in so they try to do more and so my focus would be on freedom right and I would talk about three things. And if they're in my home. It it it is it's on-site. I love the Segway my my Wi-Fi names are GMF and we talk about the three things that really LDS. Don't understand what I was talking about grace, mercy and forgiveness right in in in understanding those things. There is freedom in understanding that grace is not just everything that I do.

And then Jesus makes God makes up the rest.

At the end that mercy is we deserve punishment and it's withheld from us that that when he says we are forgiven.

Truly it is all forgiven, and so going back to something we talked about earlier if we talk to you if you if you have friends who are seeking worshipers or you have homosexual friends or your friends that are know what it whatever it anything I would never directly go after that. Because if they understand grace, mercy and forgiveness. The rest will take care of themselves take care of itself. And so it's probably very offensive. Right. So for example you don't want to go after Joseph Smith right away right because they're very like all manly bristle even even people who aren't attending award every Sunday right, who have maybe attended in years. You mentioned Joseph Smith in man there.

The strongest woman you've ever met. So I think going after the primary issues instead of secondary issues. Talking about your final authority is, is it the Bible you know is Jesus God, why, how are we saved were saved by grace and then not that the covenants are important, but there secondary you know you can talk about that in and that's where the discipleship comes in where you are at deprogramming and then reprogramming right and so it is important, but when I share the gospel with them. I probably won't ever bring it covenant theology in by name. Talk about whole time.

Of course, but not by name because that's not what's primarily important in a secondary discussion about grace and remember one time having a conversation with more missionary is one of the.

So I still pray for this missionary because we also point out conversation were talking about glazing describing the grace that having been Jesus and then he actually asked me what is grace that ended in a review of the biblical view of grace we so different from what he understood and we are in talking about those covenants of what this is something that is so near and dear. I if I don't fulfill these if I leave the church I am is the one thing that's going to damn me is upgrading these covenants make generous touches all your send unlawfully if you are saved by grace. After all that you can do. How could you ever know whether or not you've done enough and actually really honest with ourselves, not who we are to look at your covenant vows to your wife to your spouse. Can you really say you've ever Been perfect like a fairytale who goes there was one person who did keep every bit of the biblical command perfectly and he did it. If you believe in God I think is is the key to gather your billing these cuttings that you made between you and God broken up party fail you very failed to do everything perfectly, and the Bible is clear that these extra commands. If it's not in Scripture which a good command of the Pharisees that they added these commands, and so what are the commands of credits.

What we find in the Bible and check you've made a covenant that's additional to the command of God, then you're not breaking a covenant with because that's not the covenant God's working your graduating, educating Jesus to save. If you believe in him that it's done. It's finished asteroid. I asked one of the brigade geyser church register dear brother Blake and I in preparation phase. I just asked him about the question imposed on them a initial email and how his preaching the gospel effective days of midmorning before previously Mormon and a celebrity said he called it a little bit of light to that they Blake texted to me said with with Mormonism.

It's always going to be I obey.

Therefore, unexpected and not concept will always force you to be at the center, always patient. Always trying to be better, be better when he hears the gospel and receives Christ, he should not say I'm accepted. Therefore I obey with a new hard knowing that if you press finish work believing he's got some of that in some and shape it.

They can separate their freedom from the condemnation of the law, you can actually be free to share your seven people to share your failed because you are free from the condemnation of that sin deserves.

You have to worry about the bishop or anybody else coming down 94 Chieftain. In a biblical church. You should be able to share the worst things a batching life and be accepted because you accept already in Christ. That's beautiful. Thank you. Both the I'm thinking back to the time when I was deconstructing my faith in the LDS church and I was trying to make my new beliefs. After I felt like I was saved at some point.

I trust in Jesus to save me us trying to fit that into my Mormon religion in China to make a work like I was I was reading James White's the forgotten Trinity on the bus ride to church enough like the Trinity is something LDS do not accept their very anti-Trinitarian. I'll try to be like a Trinitarian Mormon and like one of the last things I really can't get me from leaving the church that like is a single thread is holding onto was I believe in the study of priesthood ordinances and like you need baptism by this priesthood to be considered righteous to get to heaven and a member reading.

Also James White's the God who justifies. And thinking about my head sermons that I'd heard basically iterating what you said and when it finally clicked like, you know, this idea that Abraham believed God, and it was credits him as righteousness through belief that perfect righteousness of Jesus is credited to us. I realized I don't have to keep the law.

I don't need these ordinances. I don't need everything that the LDS church claims to offer me to be right with God are to be accepted by God exactly what you've been saying and so I just want to confirm a Blake is said and and what you both of said and I really prefer your thoughts and your time Michael or polity of anything else done so. I think Brandon and Darren for coming on really appreciate this conversation it's been good for me and I hope and pray will be good for our listeners as well that your LDS out there and listening. Just know that Jesus is all you need and and grace is sufficient yet really enjoyed listening to you guys anything have a whole lot to interject because I was just enthralled the entire time. So money is called the width of the 1689 London confession rate because I just want to know what the name of my new beliefs. For they are for reform Baptists, all work on unit RA Babineau Robertson renewed so is that sometimes we we recommend resources in all books for people to study if they want to know more irony mentioned Pascal the nose book if you want from before baptism are not sorry Presbyterian perspective. I would recommend a book by Obama, Robertson is also there is also one by Michael Horton has a slightly different view. He's also Presbyterian and his is called introduction to covenant theology, I believe RC Sproul has a book also the God of promises or something. Something like that from reformed Baptist perspective. Definitely Pascal the nose book. This is also interesting Greg Nichols book district covenant theology is a reform Baptists, but he has a slightly different view of reform at this covenant theology.

Also, the fatal flaw that was a really great book. He also has slightly different view. So you 16 and federal federalism doesn't agree entirely with what he said specifically that like Abraham a covenant a lot of that we would agree with so 69 Feller I think it is has a lot of great videos and resources, there if you want to know more than more, but physically The of covenant theology so if you have any other resources you recommend or are you have anything else you recommend help you yeah mystery of Christ.

This annual rent rent him is a great introductory level. It covers the whole span of covenant theology and you don't have to be a academic or scholar to understand. You are to really well. Our brucellosis allergy mention getting the garden right on agreement.board Norma Brooks Brandon Adams some tons of good stuff on there's another one by all his naval come to me after it give the title is called the whole Christ, Sinclair Ferguson, that's a really really good resource for this. It it it's not an introduction. I will say that, but it's it's a good it's a good book to read. Amazing also get a mention to Dave. There's been a lot of great books and the passing of the starting to be reprinted. So covenant theology from Adam to Christ.

Nehemiah colony on Ellen is a great one. There's also if you want to get super nerdy Avenue and finishes when it this is like this is based I think on salmon hands dissertation. I think is out of the substance. The federal theology of the English particular Baptists. I started reading and I was like okay this is gonna take Miller more time to digest the thing it's a little bit more scholarly but it's great like is that I love covenant theology because you just don't understand Scripture as a latter-day St. like that you can see like is also dispensational view were God try something they fail.try something they fail ON unison County theology. It's like it's like a tapestry of just threads woven everywhere. You're like oh okay. Like there was a purpose. All this and I got out of reasonable plan for everything is beautiful. It just makes me love the Bible more in its and it's my guess that is why am I reformat this because of covenant theology. It's like it just it does make some sense, since so this is wrapping up. This is your time to plug anything you'd like your church meeting times.

If there are less listeners in Utah near Syracuse would like to attend websites, sermons, what would you like to share with our listeners.

The rear wall.

If you're not currently part of the church you want to resent when students use Utah. We moved to the city's dance Academy at 10:30 AM every Sunday and I were not flashy, but you get the word the lid song were the word preached in the vocabulary we also have a part of summons online book on our website, covenant, grace, Utah.board, or you can get him on iTunes bona fide Google fix cabinet grace church skin menu configuration something like the producers on English because of like the one just down the runs of my men should come up and and is now if you got any questions. Obviously having these guys to grade resources and energy local unities formal for a moment in time Angel out to melt some of us lettuce up the garden contact information on the website. One thing I want to point out to you that I really love that while going 11 thing I really loved as the tenure services is that you and the Lord's supper every week. I heard that I was just like us. Thing is that we should do it because as reform Baptists in our confession Lord supper isn't just something remember it's a means of grace and I think you said Danny said you know if Lord suffers a means of grace quality restricted to us once 1/4 or once a year and all I wanted every week and out and I was like Hotmail right on board array with you there rather in a God. God gives grace through baptism and the Lord suffers. I wanted every week you know so yes it is one of the those who are maybe looking for more information if you're in our area, check out on Facebook or on Instagram, covenant, grace, Utah. If you're uncomfortable like just showing up for a service you reach out send this instant message, ask questions.

I know it can be, you know, maybe scary to Sam to go to this place and I won't be attending my ward that morning and what are people going to think you know don't don't worry about that right away if you have questions, please feel free to reach out. We love to engage with you meet with you wherever you want. Just, you know, behind the anonymity of social media that's totally fine. A lot of people you know start. They are just reaching out asking questions. That's totally fine either. Either way, your ear, you welcome to join us at 1030 but that might be something that's more of a step in your willing to take right now but if you do have questions, please feel free to reach out excellent again. Ben and Dan for joining the program.

Although we have a plan for next week to plan for next week to have an accurate we will see you next week five mystery so you following following this episode, movement will probably slip is in the sum of the following this will be our article of faith nine episode will return that when a continuing revelation.

So Matt if you want to do a quick outdraw on that but I just want to say quickly zero to bend there again, thank you for coming on is really appreciated this that this is been great. Thanks for having effectiveness Inc. you fireflies are joining us for the subset of the out of Brenda's podcast. So next week we will be revealing our episode on continuing revelation. So stay tuned into this of the out of love to hear from you. Please visit the out of rightness podcast and feel free to send us a message than with comments or questions, send a message of the pain appreciated the page alive. We also have an out of rightness and others can also send this out of rightness on hear from you soon can subscribe to the out of rightness podcast on Cas cast box cast cast the modified stitcher. Also you can check out YouTube channel.

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